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#51 Posted by Outside_85 (8204 posts) - - Show Bio

It isn't fair because Fallon (wtf?) still has the biological body of a man, meaning she is from nature's grace better equipped/built to be a fighter than her opponents are.

Honestly, as offensive as it may sound, transsexual athletes should be restricted to their original gender, because regardless of what they feel like, and how many treatments they've gone on, they are still walking out on the field as the gender they were born as. It's obviously more unfair that men who's become females than the other way around, but I think it sends the wrong signal if a possible ban was in one direction.

#52 Posted by Oscuro (735 posts) - - Show Bio

If Fallon Fox was getting her a$$ whipped would it change anyone's opinion? Would it even be up for discussion?

#53 Posted by World_Breaker_Elmo (186 posts) - - Show Bio

@oscuro said:

If Fallon Fox was getting her a$$ whipped would it change anyone's opinion? Would it even be up for discussion?

I think the overall mood would be lighter but the discussion would remain. As it is right now Fallon has won most matches in pretty brutal fashion which just adds to a lot of the anger.

#54 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's pretty fair only if her opponents are allowed testosterone shots. Nyehehehehe!

#55 Edited by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

Just so we're clear this is what some of you are proposing...

  • Men fight men.
  • Women fight men.
  • Men on Estrogen fight men.
  • Men on Testosterone are illegal and fight no one.
  • Women on Estrogen fight women.
  • Women on Testosterone are illegal and fight no one.

No competitor would ever take Estrogen though, because it makes you weaker, unless they have to.

Every competitor would take Testosterone though, because it makes you strong...

Fallon would be at as much of a disadvantage against male MMA fighters as other female MMA fighters, if not more so, because she is taking a estrogen cocktail that is designed to make her have a normal woman's chemical balance. This means she's going from elevated level testosterone male to normal level estrogen woman... This puts her at a disadvantage against MMA females because MMA females have elevated testosterone levels.

Now... there is one area where there might be an advantage. As we all know, males develop in the upper body area, structurally as muscularly... Without testosterone the muscles diminish, but structurally... as in bones and how muscles connect can alter strength to some level. How much so I don't think any of us known, but looking at her, she seems more feminine in body structure in the first place and likely didn't have as much testosterone and had higher estrogen levels than normal during puberty in the first place.

So unless you can show that that her structure provides more strength than a natural woman's structure I don't see how she could be at an advantage, but do see how she can be at an extreme disadvantage.

#56 Posted by World_Breaker_Elmo (186 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

Just so we're clear this is what some of you are proposing...

  • Men fight men.
  • Women fight men.
  • Men on Estrogen fight men.
  • Men on Testosterone are illegal and fight no one.
  • Women on Estrogen fight women.
  • Women on Testosterone are illegal and fight no one.

No competitor would ever take Estrogen though, because it makes you weaker, unless they have to.

Every competitor would take Testosterone though, because it makes you strong...

Fallon would be at as much of a disadvantage against male MMA fighters as other female MMA fighters, if not more so, because she is taking a estrogen cocktail that is designed to make her have a normal woman's chemical balance. This means she's going from elevated level testosterone male to normal level estrogen woman... This puts her at a disadvantage against MMA females because MMA females have elevated testosterone levels.

Now... there is one area where there might be an advantage. As we all know, males develop in the upper body area, structurally as muscularly... Without testosterone the muscles diminish, but structurally... as in bones and how muscles connect can alter strength to some level. How much so I don't think any of us known, but looking at her, she seems more feminine in body structure in the first place and likely didn't have as much testosterone and had higher estrogen levels than normal during puberty in the first place.

So unless you can show that that her structure provides more strength than a natural woman's structure I don't see how she could be at an advantage, but do see how she can be at an extreme disadvantage.

There are also two factors to consider: That heavy physical activity naturally increases testosterone levels and that males carry and produce these levels to greater degrees. Both of these points are important in that Fallon is still a male, and one who is engaging in frequent high intensity activity, and thus producing higher levels of testosterone in comparison to female participants.

I also question the overall effectiveness of any estrogen therapy vs the near 30 years of testosterone circulating in his system while he was living an active lifestyle as a male.

I do hope there is no real advantage present. The worst possible outcome to all of this would be a severe injury to an opponent followed by confirming data that there is/was a significant advantage going into the match.

#57 Edited by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@world_breaker_elmo said:

There are also two factors to consider: That heavy physical activity naturally increases testosterone levels and that males carry and produce these levels to greater degrees. Both of these points are important in that Fallon is still a male, and one who is engaging in frequent high intensity activity, and thus producing higher levels of testosterone in comparison to female participants.

I also question the overall effectiveness of any estrogen therapy vs the near 30 years of testosterone circulating in his system while he was living an active lifestyle as a male.

I do hope there is no real advantage present. The worst possible outcome to all of this would be a severe injury to an opponent followed by confirming data that there is/was a significant advantage going into the match.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that while Testosterone does promote muscle growth Estrogen promotes fat cell formation and she is taking an extra amount of estrogen which would take all that energy that she is trying to use to grow muscles or maintain them would go to fat cells which causes her to not be as strong...

#58 Edited by World_Breaker_Elmo (186 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken said:

@world_breaker_elmo said:

There are also two factors to consider: That heavy physical activity naturally increases testosterone levels and that males carry and produce these levels to greater degrees. Both of these points are important in that Fallon is still a male, and one who is engaging in frequent high intensity activity, and thus producing higher levels of testosterone in comparison to female participants.

I also question the overall effectiveness of any estrogen therapy vs the near 30 years of testosterone circulating in his system while he was living an active lifestyle as a male.

I do hope there is no real advantage present. The worst possible outcome to all of this would be a severe injury to an opponent followed by confirming data that there is/was a significant advantage going into the match.

The problem with this line of reasoning is that while Testosterone does promote muscle growth Estrogen promotes fat cell formation and she is taking an extra amount of estrogen which would take all that energy that she is trying to use to grow muscles or maintain them would go to fat cells which causes her to not be as strong...

That is a good point. I still wonder how the estrogen therapy really balances everything I said in regards to testosterone. The presumption that any estrogen simply would cancel out equal testosterone sounds a bit simplistic, but I do not know.

Something else would be if Fallon is taking any supplements that might be affecting hormone levels in any way.

#59 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@world_breaker_elmo said:

That is a good point. I still wonder how the estrogen therapy really balances everything I said in regards to testosterone. The presumption that any estrogen simply would cancel out equal testosterone sounds a bit simplistic, but I do not know.

Something else would be if Fallon is taking any supplements that might be affecting hormone levels in any way.

I agree that that is a bit simplistic, but it probably works something like like that and I can't find any information that doesn't seem to support that...

I'd also point out that while it could be too simplistic it could be accurate to say that they cancel each other out in a way, because it could be the case that our cells only have a single hormone receptor or only a few and if you flood the system with 1 particular hormone, even if the other hormone is there it might just not be able to grab onto cells in any significant amount. If you have 60/40 estrogen/Testosterone in your system and all your cells have 3 receptors, you're going to come out with 66% or more of those receptors being filled with estrogen.

We also know that the prolonged reduction of Testosterone can significantly reduce someone's size and strength. We've all met the old man who used to be 6'2" but is now 5'10" That's because of a reduction in testosterone for a prolonged period of time. So I don't see how it's so unbelievable that a 30 yr old man who is subjecting themself to reduced testosterone AND increased estrogen would have an incredible reduction in strength.

#60 Posted by World_Breaker_Elmo (186 posts) - - Show Bio

@durakken:

I agree that that is a bit simplistic, but it probably works something like like that and I can't find any information that doesn't seem to support that...

I'd also point out that while it could be too simplistic it could be accurate to say that they cancel each other out in a way, because it could be the case that our cells only have a single hormone receptor or only a few and if you flood the system with 1 particular hormone, even if the other hormone is there it might just not be able to grab onto cells in any significant amount. If you have 60/40 estrogen/Testosterone in your system and all your cells have 3 receptors, you're going to come out with 66% or more of those receptors being filled with estrogen.

I really do not know enough to comment on the position regarding hormone receptors, especially when complicating it with a situation involving gender reassignment and replacement hormone therapies. I like that you brought that idea up, that does sound interesting and I hope something comes up about it in further talks, both on here and in the mma community.

We also know that the prolonged reduction of Testosterone can significantly reduce someone's size and strength. We've all met the old man who used to be 6'2" but is now 5'10" That's because of a reduction in testosterone for a prolonged period of time. So I don't see how it's so unbelievable that a 30 yr old man who is subjecting themself to reduced testosterone AND increased estrogen would have an incredible reduction in strength.

Keep in mind this is an individual that is still trying to compete at the highest level possible. The idea of taking any therapy that could possibly result in such acute and severe disadvantages would be curbed to only as minimum a degree as to be allowed to compete. Taking a level any greater would simply be unnecessary and potentially unsafe given the activity being participated in. Say to this point that everything has been more or less balanced out, there is still the physical activity that would naturally produce a greater amount of testosterone.

This idea that the transgendered male to female person is structurally weakened to that of a comparable female is presumed upon someone not engaged in a heavy physical activity, but rather simply trying to recreate their body into as feminine a state as possible. Fallon is lifting heavy, training daily, and if serious about training, taking some sort supplementation. All of which can play parts in the regulation of hormone levels.

I think you and I are agreeing on the idea that most are simply attacking this person as nothing more than a "guy who had his penis cut off who now fights women" when there is definitely more going on. As I stated previously, I hope more definitive information does come out to answer some of these questions.

#61 Edited by Dayvid3 (807 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't Andy Kaufman already do this ground breaking work?

#62 Posted by Pyrogram (35159 posts) - - Show Bio

If the professionals say it's good it's good. But if they are only saying it's good for equality no.

#63 Posted by Durakken (1593 posts) - - Show Bio

@world_breaker_elmo: I don't really care one way or the other, but find the situation laughable because this is just the beginning of these types of issues that people don't want to talk about and are going to be highly biased about regardless of what they may say and the solution to the problem is the one that needs to be implemented across the board...meritocracy, but if we did that a lot of people would have their scholarships dropped, kicked out of school, fired, etc because the best people don't have the jobs and once a company realizes they can hire based on merit again they'll quickly be looking to scoop up and drop people when and where they can.

#64 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

She's been approved by the governing body of the sport and is allowed to participate. There is no controversy here.

#65 Posted by World_Breaker_Elmo (186 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

She's been approved by the governing body of the sport and is allowed to participate. There is no controversy here.

Being allowed to compete by a governing body against natural born females IS what the controversy is about. That is what we have been discussing.

#66 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

She's been approved by the governing body of the sport and is allowed to participate. There is no controversy here.

Being allowed to compete by a governing body against natural born females IS what the controversy is about. That is what we have been discussing.

I know. I am saying there shouldn't be a controversy since it's already been green-lighted by the powers-that-be who run the sport professionally. We are all just laymen and while opinions are great to share, I don't really feel it matters considering it's a done deal and concerns about this athlete competing in the women's division has already been addressed. That is my opinion -- which doesn't matter, lol.

#67 Edited by laflux (14382 posts) - - Show Bio

@pyrogram: @lykopis:

In all honestly, I think its liberating that someone with tits that large is allowed to compete. She's definitely 2-0 up on most female competitors where it matters.

In Memory of Nerx. In Memory of the Breastfeeding Thread.

*Salutes*

#68 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux:

Last I heard -- the word t*ts is verboden on the site, but titties isn't. Apparently cutifying things makes it a-okay.

#69 Posted by laflux (14382 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@laflux:

Last I heard -- the word t*ts is verboden on the site, but titties isn't. Apparently cutifying things makes it a-okay.

Meh, if I was going to get warnings today, it probably wouldn't be for this

#70 Edited by Joygirl (18887 posts) - - Show Bio

Why is this still a discussion? She is allowed to fight because she is handicapped by hormones. And guess what? She doesn't make more testosterone because transgender people TAKE ANTI-TESTOSTERONE PILLS ALREADY. That's part of being transgender. I already went over this. She is weaker than the girls she is fighting, it's not their fault she is also a badass. The sports industry are allowing her to fight because she isn't superior, she has to work harder to win.

#71 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@lykopis said:

@laflux:

Last I heard -- the word t*ts is verboden on the site, but titties isn't. Apparently cutifying things makes it a-okay.

Meh, if I was going to get warnings today, it probably wouldn't be for this

I am feeling a sense of dread at those words...

#72 Posted by laflux (14382 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

Why is this still a discussion?

Misogyny, Lack of Understanding, people filled with conflicting feelings of thinking that the concept of transgenderism is wrong, but also admitting that the girl in question has nice breasts.

You know, the usual.

#73 Posted by Joygirl (18887 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Oh, okay, that makes sense. She does have pretty nice breasts.

#74 Edited by Dabee (2380 posts) - - Show Bio

I just see it as a woman competing against women. If she was born a male, I don't see how that really applies anymore.

#75 Edited by Joygirl (18887 posts) - - Show Bio
#76 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@laflux said:

@lykopis said:

@laflux:

Last I heard -- the word t*ts is verboden on the site, but titties isn't. Apparently cutifying things makes it a-okay.

Meh, if I was going to get warnings today, it probably wouldn't be for this

I am feeling a sense of dread at those words...

what about "funbags" or "baazongas"

#77 Edited by laflux (14382 posts) - - Show Bio

@joygirl said:

@laflux: Oh, okay, that makes sense. She does have pretty nice breasts.

Yeah, she's beating up Pert athletic girls with a big smile on her face and an even bigger bust. What's not to like?

That aside, do you think that the publicity she's generating will generate more income for the organisation she fights for. And if that is the case, do you think that's the reason she's been cleared to fight, rather than due to any regard for her rights, or talent.

#78 Posted by Joygirl (18887 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Nah. Organizations can be cutthroat but they will get in a LOT of trouble if she actually does have an advantage. Sports industries' desire to cover their own asses outweight basic greed. If a girl gets injured -- or worse, killed -- because Fallon is colossally powerful for her weight class, the people who approved the match could go to prison. And they don't want that.

#79 Posted by World_Breaker_Elmo (186 posts) - - Show Bio
@joygirl said:

@laflux: Oh, okay, that makes sense. She does have pretty nice breasts.

@lykopis said:

@laflux said:

@lykopis said:

@laflux:

Last I heard -- the word t*ts is verboden on the site, but titties isn't. Apparently cutifying things makes it a-okay.

Meh, if I was going to get warnings today, it probably wouldn't be for this

I am feeling a sense of dread at those words...

what about "funbags" or "baazongas"

D*** you all for cluttering my thoughts of this debate with images of big boobs! Or should I be thankful? Elmo is confused.

#80 Posted by Enemybird (3151 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc said:

It can be fair and arguable under how the various organized competitive fighting organizations rules and regulations cover and qualify such things. When a male fighter uses illegal steroids and drugs designed to give him an edge takes on another male fighter who isn't in violation, do people excuse it because both of them are guys? No, because its not about gender but about what's allowed and not allowed based on biology, chemicals and rules that are far more objective and nuanced than gender perceptions. Gender itself does carry some objective traits that can be measured and assessed and fairly compared but its more complicated than that in that there are multiple variables and many that are not carried inherently exclusively with gender. Its possible this fighter has an advantage over her competitors that competitive fight organizers overlook because of the controversy, however most of the informed and professional analysis from Doctors, experts in genetics that I have read give their approval for Fox to fight against other woman. Also noting that she may be at a disadvantage. I am not privy to her or other fighters medical records and other such information, but based on the opinions of experts and that the Association of Boxing Commissions is okay with it, so am I.

But you cant ignore the simple fact that men and women don't compete against one another traditionally. The reason being is that more times that not men have a physical strength & speed, advantage over women. It comes down to differences in muscle fiber characteristics, weight distribution,& testosterone. Of course there are other variables but for the sake of argument these are the most prominent. Also...its a guy! No matter how much make up you put on or estrogen pills you take he will still have that Y chromosome. I disagree with the decision for him to compete it makes the sport look bad.

#81 Edited by SC (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@enemybird said:

@sc said:

It can be fair and arguable under how the various organized competitive fighting organizations rules and regulations cover and qualify such things. When a male fighter uses illegal steroids and drugs designed to give him an edge takes on another male fighter who isn't in violation, do people excuse it because both of them are guys? No, because its not about gender but about what's allowed and not allowed based on biology, chemicals and rules that are far more objective and nuanced than gender perceptions. Gender itself does carry some objective traits that can be measured and assessed and fairly compared but its more complicated than that in that there are multiple variables and many that are not carried inherently exclusively with gender. Its possible this fighter has an advantage over her competitors that competitive fight organizers overlook because of the controversy, however most of the informed and professional analysis from Doctors, experts in genetics that I have read give their approval for Fox to fight against other woman. Also noting that she may be at a disadvantage. I am not privy to her or other fighters medical records and other such information, but based on the opinions of experts and that the Association of Boxing Commissions is okay with it, so am I.

But you cant ignore the simple fact that men and women don't compete against one another traditionally. The reason being is that more times that not men have a physical strength & speed, advantage over women. It comes down to differences in muscle fiber characteristics, weight distribution,& testosterone. Of course there are other variables but for the sake of argument these are the most prominent. Also...its a guy! No matter how much make up you put on or estrogen pills you take he will still have that Y chromosome. I disagree with the decision for him to compete it makes the sport look bad.

Whose ignoring anything here? Its a fact that random men don't compete against other random men in MMA either, its a career choice, you usually have guys who train to fight, so its pretty easy to throw around terms like fact and assert what doesn't happen, but I don't see the relevance since the gender divide is not the only dividing factor in general but fighters aren't matched up in general they abide to regulations and rules and a set criteria to try and provide equality and competitiveness.

So under what authority are you crediting yourself to make the assertion they are a guy. Institute For Society And Genetics, Championship Fighting Alliance, the woman herself and doctors treating her all seem to consider her a female. Are you coming at this from a legal standpoint? Scientific? Lets have a conversation here. ^_^ - Also if its not too much trouble could you give me the medical run down on this fighter and her testosterone levels and those of her competition? Their muscles masses as well and respective bone densities please? I mean surely you have an objective basis for your reasoning right? Some woman are born with XY chromosomes. Some men XX. Gender isn't actually as neat and tidy as people like to project or assert it is. Sometimes physical genitals don't align with the traditional chromosomes or with the traditional estrogen/testosterone levels of respective genders. Having XY chromosomes is not that significant a factor relative to other things like testosterone levels and thus not that big a concern when determining fairness, at least from what I know.

(Also Hi, haven't seen you around CV for a while, hope all is great with you ^_^)

Moderator
#82 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@laflux said:

@lykopis said:

@laflux:

Last I heard -- the word t*ts is verboden on the site, but titties isn't. Apparently cutifying things makes it a-okay.

Meh, if I was going to get warnings today, it probably wouldn't be for this

I am feeling a sense of dread at those words...

what about "funbags" or "baazongas"

Funbags? Easy there, cowboy. It's not like you should slap those things around for your own amusement!

#83 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@betatesthighlander1 said:

@lykopis said:

@laflux said:

@lykopis said:

@laflux:

Last I heard -- the word t*ts is verboden on the site, but titties isn't. Apparently cutifying things makes it a-okay.

Meh, if I was going to get warnings today, it probably wouldn't be for this

I am feeling a sense of dread at those words...

what about "funbags" or "baazongas"

Funbags? Easy there, cowboy. It's not like you should slap those things around for your own amusement!

#84 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio
#85 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: you ever read any of Chaos!'s stuff?

#86 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio
#87 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#88 Edited by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1:

I see. o-o

Well, he's a pervert like Doop and appreciative of lady-lumps (mostly) in the same way. Interesting character.

#89 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@betatesthighlander1:

I see. o-o

Well, he's a pervert like Doop and appreciative of lady-lumps (mostly) in the same way. Interesting character.

heh, yeah

I would suggest Chaos! stuff to you, I think you'd like Lady Death and Purgatori

#90 Edited by Enemybird (3151 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc said:

@enemybird said:

@sc said:

It can be fair and arguable under how the various organized competitive fighting organizations rules and regulations cover and qualify such things. When a male fighter uses illegal steroids and drugs designed to give him an edge takes on another male fighter who isn't in violation, do people excuse it because both of them are guys? No, because its not about gender but about what's allowed and not allowed based on biology, chemicals and rules that are far more objective and nuanced than gender perceptions. Gender itself does carry some objective traits that can be measured and assessed and fairly compared but its more complicated than that in that there are multiple variables and many that are not carried inherently exclusively with gender. Its possible this fighter has an advantage over her competitors that competitive fight organizers overlook because of the controversy, however most of the informed and professional analysis from Doctors, experts in genetics that I have read give their approval for Fox to fight against other woman. Also noting that she may be at a disadvantage. I am not privy to her or other fighters medical records and other such information, but based on the opinions of experts and that the Association of Boxing Commissions is okay with it, so am I.

But you cant ignore the simple fact that men and women don't compete against one another traditionally. The reason being is that more times that not men have a physical strength & speed, advantage over women. It comes down to differences in muscle fiber characteristics, weight distribution,& testosterone. Of course there are other variables but for the sake of argument these are the most prominent. Also...its a guy! No matter how much make up you put on or estrogen pills you take he will still have that Y chromosome. I disagree with the decision for him to compete it makes the sport look bad.

Whose ignoring anything here? Its a fact that random men don't compete against other random men in MMA either, its a career choice, you usually have guys who train to fight, so its pretty easy to throw around terms like fact and assert what doesn't happen, but I don't see the relevance since the gender divide is not the only dividing factor in general but fighters aren't matched up in general they abide to regulations and rules and a set criteria to try and provide equality and competitiveness.

So under what authority are you crediting yourself to make the assertion they are a guy. Institute For Society And Genetics, Championship Fighting Alliance, the woman herself and doctors treating her all seem to consider her a female. Are you coming at this from a legal standpoint? Scientific? Lets have a conversation here. ^_^ - Also if its not too much trouble could you give me the medical run down on this fighter and her testosterone levels and those of her competition? Their muscles masses as well and respective bone densities please? I mean surely you have an objective basis for your reasoning right? Some woman are born with XY chromosomes. Some men XX. Gender isn't actually as neat and tidy as people like to project or assert it is. Sometimes physical genitals don't align with the traditional chromosomes or with the traditional estrogen/testosterone levels of respective genders. Having XY chromosomes is not that significant a factor relative to other things like testosterone levels and thus not that big a concern when determining fairness, at least from what I know.

(Also Hi, haven't seen you around CV for a while, hope all is great with you ^_^)

Let me simplify this before it becomes complicated and my position on the issue is lost in an argument over semantics and misinterpretations. I disagree with the decision to have a males compete against females in the MMA. My reasoning put simply is because at the "professional/Olympic sport level" for lack of a better word specifically when it has to do with strength and speed based sports Men fair better than Women. This potentially gives him and unfair advantage. That is my conclusion based on the available evidence.

#91 Posted by SC (12731 posts) - - Show Bio

@enemybird said:

Okay thats fair. I am not sure why you are telling me this specifically instead of making a general post? If its to try and provide a counter point to my acceptance of this ruling it doesn't dissuade me, men aren't naturally stronger than woman because of what chromosome's they possess or because of the shape of their sexual organs or simply by being labeled as men, its to do with chemical hormonal reasons and their affects on metabolism, muscles and bone structure and quite a few other things, things that naturally change and fluctuate over both male and female life times and things that can also be artificially changed. In this specific case we have a former male having artificial treatments to become a woman and having all the pros and cons that come along with the treatments to make that possible. That means softer and thinner skin, far less facial hair growth, relatively thinner hair on the body, fat deposits differently, its harder to build and keep muscle. So on, I won't try and cover everything. The best evidence I have seen has directly asserted that this fighter is more likely to be at a disadvantage than an advantage.

"Science seems to be on Fox’s side. “Male to female transsexuals have significantly less muscle strength and bone density, and higher fat mass, than males,” says Dr. Eric Vilain, director of the Institute For Society And Genetics at UCLA. Vilain examined Fox’s medical records and wrote a letter supporting her bid to fight as a woman. He also helped the Association of Boxing Commissions write its transgender policy. In order to fight against women, male-to-female athletes who had surgery after puberty must show that “surgical anatomical changes have been completed, including external genitalia and gonadectomy” and that “hormone therapy appropriate for the assigned sex (female) has been administered by a board certified endocrinologist or internist, pediatrician, or D.O. or any other specialist known to have significant knowledge with transsexuals and transgender individuals for a MINIMUM of TWO YEARS after gonadectroy. This is the current understanding of the minimum amount of time necessary to obviate male hormone gender related advantages in sports competition.”

"Plus, Fox’s low testosterone could offset any advantage. Since Fox has neither testicles nor ovaries, which both produce testosterone, her levels are likely lower than those of her female competitors."

Various boxing and sports commissions and what have you have given the green light to Fallon Fox to compete, since I do not have access to her medical records or her opponents medical records I can't double check to see how accurate and credible Dr. Eric Vilain, or the various people who run the MMA bouts Fox participates in, but if the people running it are okay with it and various medical professionals have given her the green light. Well again what evidence are you speaking of to reach your conclusion? Is it better than the evidence that opposes your conclusion?

Moderator
#92 Edited by Lady_Liberty (8211 posts) - - Show Bio

Does anyone know how her body will react to anabolic steroids? Usually women are far more sensitive to anabolic steroids than men, does anyone know if this will be true for Fox? Androgenic effects are what usually determines the maximum dose in training times or when you have access to a masking agent, does anyone know how this will interact with her body?