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#1 Edited by World_Breaker_Elmo (186 posts) - - Show Bio

[If this post is in violation of any forum rules I apologize. This has been something on my mind since I first heard of it an just wanted to hear some opinions from around the vine.]

This is just what the title says. Apparently there is/was a male by the name of Boyd Burton who underwent a sex change operation around the age of 30 I believe and is now currently competing as a woman under the name Fallon Fox against natural born women in the sport of mixed martial arts (think Ultimate Fighting for those who are unfamiliar).

Here are some links: before and after photo, An article from Times Sports, Another from Times Sports, Bleacher Report interview, Another interview along with a vid.

I do not want to get into my personal views on a person's decision to do something like that to themselves but from a competitive/sportsmanship perspective I just cannot wrap myself around any understanding of how this can be considered in any way fair and inarguable.

I especially would like any input from anyone who is a fight fan, or fan of any sport, who also has a decent understanding of human biochemistry.

Thank you for reading.

#2 Posted by russellmania77 (15852 posts) - - Show Bio

hell no, he would murder most of em girls (except the really good one)

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#3 Posted by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

LMAO Isn't it fun when bullshit egalitarianism doesn't work?

I'm sorry... It's just funny sometimes when denying reality ends up showing how wrong it is...

#4 Posted by Chibio (920 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's okay to let her compete as long as her hormone levels are not too high. She does have to be completely female and especially when it comes to the hormones, if she wants to compete with the other female fighters. Other than that I don't see why she shouldn't be allowed to compete.

#5 Edited by warlock360 (28064 posts) - - Show Bio

"Fox is 2-0 in professional mixed martial arts competition, most recently scoring a 39-second knockout of Ericka Newsome"

Looks like Mike Tyson decided to be transgender and compete, but then again

doesn't physically look too much more buff.

#6 Posted by Raw_Material (3300 posts) - - Show Bio

Yea i know it's ridiculous, right?! Fallon Fox, not sure if the UFC's gonna bring her into the organization or not, but it's highly doubtful considering the media attention she's getting right now.

#7 Posted by SOG7dc (8213 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't think it's fair.

#8 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (6516 posts) - - Show Bio

#9 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (7084 posts) - - Show Bio

Hell NO! Regardless of the sex change these dude are physically underneath all that change are still men.

#10 Posted by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

Are you saying you are denying her choice of gender? Or are you going to deny her entrance into the male division? OR are you, once she's entered, going to deny other women?

I personally think all of this is stupid to begin with, but it's what you get when you seek out things that aren't merit based. All you have to do is set criteria for each division and if you are above or below that's it. You don't need to divide based on gender...

Oh and btw... Your reaction here is why women in the military, on the police force, and as fire fighters is BS for the most part... As well as why all quota driven stuff is fallen in performance. It's because you aren't basing it on merit, but whether this person have a vagina or a penis, an x or a y chromosome, etc. You aren't basing it on whether they are good enough or not.

#11 Edited by XImpossibruX (5267 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh boy. I saw this article and a comment from another person said.

"No matter what the law says, no matter how you recognize yourself as, no matter what the plastic surgeons say, you were born as a man, you die as a man. Your body will grow as a man's would, which overpowers the female division. No matter how you try and say that this is denying her gender, her body is of a man and should be in the male division."

Do you agree?

#12 Edited by The_Boogieman (30 posts) - - Show Bio

Plain wrong, and I compete in amateur boxing. Men are faster than stronger than women, and "she" will beat any woman who isn't just a million times better skill wise. If people think roids are bad, this take it to another level. Yeah, the very best women would beat her, but is that who she is fighting?

#13 Posted by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_boogieman: Let's say she is 100% female hormonally and muscle distribution and everything else and she wins every match she is in... Is it because she was originally male or is it because she is just more skilled? Flip the gender and say the same thing, ask the same question... I bet you get different answers.

This is what we call a double standard...

#14 Edited by The_Boogieman (30 posts) - - Show Bio

She isn't so it doesn't matter, and all you to do to see that is look at a picture. If she was completely female and won though, yeah kudos to her, no complaints. But that isn't the case. If it was a post op man fighting men, He would get beat up, unless he was an experienced fighter and his opponents had a big disadvantage in experience and skill.. So no double standard from me.

#15 Posted by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

If it was a post op man fighting men, He would get beat up

So she's an MMA fighter... can't fight women... can't fight men. So I guess she get's to have no job.

#16 Edited by JEdThing (171 posts) - - Show Bio

@raw_material:

She fights at featherweight right now. UFC doesn't have a womens 145 pound division yet, so its unlikely she would be fighting under their banner. Though I guess she could drop down to 135.

But on the original question, as long as the athletic commission license her, I think she should be able to fight.

#17 Posted by The_Boogieman (30 posts) - - Show Bio

No, the way she looks now, she should fight men, and that's be fine. You said IF she was biologically equal to women, would it be okay to fight them? Yes. If she was equal to men(which I am willing to bet she's damn closed judging by the build), would fighting men be acceptable? Yes. So yeah, she can have a job, compete in the division you belong in, instead of being a coward and beating up women. With that said, I'd love to see Cris Cyborg kick her ass.(who you should look at a picture of for a comparison in stature of an athletic woman and a man, Fox clearly resembles the latter)

#18 Posted by ShadowX (1207 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay let me tell you something. As a trans woman I have done research On this subject because it will be effevting me. When you start hormones, in the first couple of weeks you lose strength. I've heard this from ither trans woman, and reports, and medical sites about hormones. Over time your muscles get smaller. True you might be back to that size if you work hard but it will be alot of work. The only difference she may have is slightly wider shoulders or bigger hands.

Which can be common among woman anyways. Should we deny cis woman who may have larger hands than normal, or may have higher levels of testosterone, or taller.

What about that racer who was a cis woman who was almost banned because they thought she was a "man" but she really just had high testosterone levels. They are all woman even if they dont equal your or societys standards.

#19 Posted by Durakken (1591 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_boogieman: Strange how I looked up women MMA fighters and it seems that there is 1 to 3 ratio of those who seem to be equal or buffer to her.

How bout Chyna Doll, if she joined MMA should she be in the women's division or the mens?

#20 Edited by Fuchsia_Nightingale (10130 posts) - - Show Bio

@shadowx:

My hands are super tiny hehehe

#21 Edited by The_Boogieman (30 posts) - - Show Bio

How come in this society, what's important is that everyone gets what they want? No one made him become a woman, he could just be gay and fight men. Emile Griffith did it at a time where it Was much less acceptable to be gay. Don't even try to say gays aren't accepted, because in this day and age they are very more than they are not. Just bitch until you get what you want, that's the American way. Bunch of sissies in this society. This man shouldn't be fighting women, that's that. If you make choices such as changing your sex, you should deal with any criticism or consequence that comes with it, just like anything else in life. Not be a big pussy and cry, which is what everyone seems to do about anything that isn't the way they want it to be.

#22 Posted by ShadowX (1207 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_boogieman: You have very little understanding of wha being transgender. It has nothibg to do with your sexuality. There are trans woman that are lesbians and bi sexuals. And even trans woman that are straight arent the same as a gay male. She decided to have surgery because the body that SHE was born with was cahing her crippling amount of pain, depression and discomfort, and so she transitioned and took hormones and surgery to be.comfortable with who she is. So yes nobody made her. She did it for herself so she could live an authenthic and happy life.

Also in many places including america gays still arent fully accepted. Hate crimes have actually increased in recent years. In some places they can be legaled fired for being gay or trans. Queer youth are still abandoned on a day to day basis by family, many of them homeless. People are still bullied and physically assaulted for being queer. There are groups who go around threatened with violence to kick queer people out of there Homes in Canada and the U.S. the media makes it look all nice and shiny because " oh gay marriage" but we are dealing with alot of other problems and are still unequal.

#23 Edited by silkyballfro94 (2005 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't allow Boyd Burton to fight at all. It is unfair in my opinion. But that doesn't mean I dislike transgenders, it's just unfair. Woman vs woman and man vs man.

#24 Edited by The_Boogieman (30 posts) - - Show Bio

A crippling amount of pain huh? Oh and of course...depression...I guess I'll take your word for it. People are bullied for beings nerds, white, having braces too. I don't see them making it to be some global societal issue they need to band together and cry about. Anyway, I'm out of this circus.

#26 Edited by JEdThing (171 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_boogieman:

She is tested before and after fights like most fighters. T/E ratio is with in the allowed limits for a female fighter. Because of all the HRT she has been through, her muscle mass is about average for a woman fighting at 145. So whats the problem? Is it because she has steam rolled through her 3 opponents? As long as the athletic commission gives her a license to fight, everything is legal and perhaps more important, as equal as it probably could be.

#27 Posted by ShadowX (1207 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_boogieman: people arent denied rights because they are white, or have braces, or being nerds. Theres a difference between bullying and opressions.

#28 Posted by Bogey (970 posts) - - Show Bio

She's a freakshow attraction for shady promotions. I doubt we'll see in her Invicta or in the UFC.

#29 Posted by Raw_Material (3300 posts) - - Show Bio

@jedthing said:

@raw_material:

She fights at featherweight right now. UFC doesn't have a womens 145 pound division yet, so its unlikely she would be fighting under their banner. Though I guess she could drop down to 135.

But on the original question, as long as the athletic commission license her, I think she should be able to fight.

She'll make the drop if she's allowed to join the organization for sure, but that's if she's even given the chance to. Maybe she's looking at a future in Bellator?

#30 Edited by mikethekiller (8492 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know I suppose it's ok if she takes her hormones and can get her testosterone within the allowed levels for women.

#31 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

How come in this society, what's important is that everyone gets what they want? No one made him become a woman, he could just be gay and fight men. Emile Griffith did it at a time where it Was much less acceptable to be gay. Don't even try to say gays aren't accepted, because in this day and age they are very more than they are not. Just bitch until you get what you want, that's the American way. Bunch of sissies in this society. This man shouldn't be fighting women, that's that. If you make choices such as changing your sex, you should deal with any criticism or consequence that comes with it, just like anything else in life. Not be a big pussy and cry, which is what everyone seems to do about anything that isn't the way they want it to be.

You're either an 89 year old man or a 12 year old boy. I'm having trouble deciding.

#32 Edited by The_Boogieman (30 posts) - - Show Bio

Yah man, got me.

#33 Posted by laflux (17548 posts) - - Show Bio

Seems alright to me.

#34 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (26988 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

Seems alright to me.

#35 Posted by King Saturn (225186 posts) - - Show Bio

"Fox is 2-0 in professional mixed martial arts competition, most recently scoring a 39-second knockout of Ericka Newsome"

Looks like Mike Tyson decided to be transgender and compete, but then again

doesn't physically look too much more buff.

Her body is in Great Shape though... I know chicks who have more of a hump in the happy spot than Fox does.

#36 Posted by dondave (38906 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Edited by slade_wilson (642 posts) - - Show Bio

Biologically, it's not fair. Period. End of report.

I try not to get too much into it as my favorite fighter, Matt Mitrione, was suspended over his comments about this issue. I tend to get very emotional and combative in deep conversation on this.

#38 Posted by Joygirl (19955 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually read about this. It isn't fair -- for her. The studies showed (and this was the reason she was allowed to keep competing) that the hormones she was taking actually proved to be a physical HANDICAP. She is not stronger in her weight class. She is actually weaker due to a chemically-induced handicap. She is not as good as biological women and has to work harder to compete. Therefore, if she wants to keep fighting, there is no reason to stop her. It is not only fair to the women she is fighting against... they are at an advantage.

#39 Posted by BadVoodoo (381 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't allow Boyd Burton to fight at all. It is unfair in my opinion. But that doesn't mean I dislike transgenders, it's just unfair. Woman vs woman and man vs man.

This, this by a long shot

#40 Posted by Samimista (21050 posts) - - Show Bio
#42 Posted by russellmania77 (15852 posts) - - Show Bio

remember that one episode of futurama when bender has a sex change to become a better Olympic performer than the other fem bots

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#43 Posted by SC (13409 posts) - - Show Bio

It can be fair and arguable under how the various organized competitive fighting organizations rules and regulations cover and qualify such things. When a male fighter uses illegal steroids and drugs designed to give him an edge takes on another male fighter who isn't in violation, do people excuse it because both of them are guys? No, because its not about gender but about what's allowed and not allowed based on biology, chemicals and rules that are far more objective and nuanced than gender perceptions. Gender itself does carry some objective traits that can be measured and assessed and fairly compared but its more complicated than that in that there are multiple variables and many that are not carried inherently exclusively with gender. Its possible this fighter has an advantage over her competitors that competitive fight organizers overlook because of the controversy, however most of the informed and professional analysis from Doctors, experts in genetics that I have read give their approval for Fox to fight against other woman. Also noting that she may be at a disadvantage. I am not privy to her or other fighters medical records and other such information, but based on the opinions of experts and that the Association of Boxing Commissions is okay with it, so am I.

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#44 Posted by World_Breaker_Elmo (186 posts) - - Show Bio

Everybody seems to be focusing on the chemical components. What I see as an overt factor to be considered is the mechanical differences in males to females - their physical structures. If you view any of the matches this person has been in please note the structural differences in how Fallon Fox walks, punches, stands, etc. to that of naturally born female opponent.

I do not have a decisive opinion one way or the other regarding this because this whole situation is still so foreign to me. Hopefully this Boyd Burton fellow is happy with the decision he has made. But should he now as Fallon Fox be allowed to compete in a physically intense and directly opposing sport such as mixed martial arts? The best I can say is that his opponents should at least be given the choice to fight or refuse without complicating their own standings or any promotional contracts.

#45 Posted by World_Breaker_Elmo (186 posts) - - Show Bio

Another topic that may or may not be relevant to all of this is the initial controversy due to Fallon not disclosing the sex change operation with any of the licensing boards or promotions he/she competed in/for. here's a link

It was in the hiding of this information that lead people in a large part originally to the side of disliking this person. The information regarding any potential advantages were scarce and just coming out and a lot of people saw this as a very unsafe situation for the females that he/she had fought already.

My use of he/she is not meant as a personal attack in any way. I simply do not know what is the correct pronoun to use. 'She' because that is what is socially acceptable to sympathizers of this personal situation, or 'He' because the chromosomes are still male.

#46 Posted by CrouchingTiger (148 posts) - - Show Bio

@shadowx: all Americans are oppressed. But for some reason, those on the left feel that they get to decide who is really oppressed.

#47 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7510 posts) - - Show Bio

remember that one episode of futurama when bender has a sex change to become a better Olympic performer than the other fem bots

yeah I was totally thinking of that

I hope this never becomes a standard technique for athletes

#48 Posted by BR_Havoc (1340 posts) - - Show Bio

Men have thicker bone density which would cause her to be able to hit harder. That is an unfair advantage and should not be aloud. To me this an more extreme case like Vitor Belfort I do not care if the doctor says it's okay (He is using steroids to treat a chronic injury) You have an unfair advantage over your opponent and takes away from the spirit of competition.

#49 Posted by Vance Astro (91416 posts) - - Show Bio

This is one sport trans women shouldn't be allowed to do.

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#50 Posted by Vance Astro (91416 posts) - - Show Bio
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