The US Supreme Court upheld prayer in government meetings!

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willpayton

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#1  Edited By willpayton

"(Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday gave local government officials across the United States more leeway to begin public meetings with a prayer, ruling that sectarian invocations do not automatically violate the U.S. Constitution."

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/05/us-usa-court-prayer-idUSBREA440FO20140505

The First Amendment is generally interpreted to mean that government cannot establish or support a religion. In this decision, the Supreme Court is shooting that down, saying that it's ok to start government meetings with a religious ceremony.

What do you guys/gals think about this?

Does it disturb you that the Supreme Court seems to be severely weakening one of the major pillars on which our laws are based?

How do you feel about the continued partisan court rulings... which appear to be based more and more on ideology and partisan affiliation rather than being truly unbiased interpretations of the law? There have now been a number of 5-4 rulings, with the same judges on both sides. What does this say about the current state and future of our democracy?

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russellmania77

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#2  Edited By russellmania77

Atleast their breaking bread on budgets

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Pperspectiveandreality

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The court isn't making anyone do anything nor are they establishing or supporting any religion. They're simply doing their job and establishing freedom of religion and religious expression. No one is making anyone pray if they don't want to.

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deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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magnablue

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I don't think that they should be allowed to. What about people of other religions? Atheists? keep your religion to yourself.

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The_Deathstroker

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@hylian:

1. People of other religions? It doesn't even specify one single religion so what are you talking about!?

2. Atheists don't have to pray. Comment #3 is the perfect response to that.

3. "keep your religion to yourself".... They never brought their religions onto anyone O_o

Maybe you should actually read the text and not just the title? Lol.

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magnablue

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@The_Deathstroker: but they say public. If not everyone agrees on praying then they shouldn't do it.

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#9  Edited By dernman

@hylian said:

@The_Deathstroker: but they say public. If not everyone agrees on praying then they shouldn't do it.

Nor are they going to force them. They most likely just sit quietly while others do their thing. Hell probably could do their own work.

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Wolverine008

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K.

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dshipp17

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#11  Edited By dshipp17

The Supreme Court made the right decision. It's getting ludicrous how the court's were taking every stray complaint by an atheist seriously. The courts had done enough of restricting religious liberty; it needed to take a rational balance between allowing Christians to practice their religion versus efforts to restrict the practice of Christianity. All matters of religion should not have been reduced by a few people here and there affecting thousands to express there thoughts to the masses. Separation of church and state was never meant to mean freedom from religion, where most of the founders of the United States were clearly Christian; they just wanted to prevent Christianity from controlling the government in the manner in which it controlled the United Kingdom or Roman Empire, but those two examples were exasperated by them being a monarchy.

Your comparisons to the Crusades, Inquisition, and, I'll add this one for you, the Quaker days, are just nonsensical. The Crusades and Inquisition were influence more by the Roman Empire than the Great Commission that Christians spread the Gospel, where the Crusades and Inquisition went out centuries ago, and where mainstream Christianity hasn't bared a semblance of being a threat to resurrect something like the Crusades or Inquisition in any part of the world, yet along in the United States, of all places, especially to the point that the courts entertained every stray atheists complaint to the point that it was implied that the United States, as a whole, had a rational phobia against Christians practicing the tenants of their faith; basically, the judicial branch and federal government were actually getting to the point of being manipulated by the atheists; that still might be the case. Modern day Christianity has no reputation that even resembles fundamentalist Islam and, baring the most persecuted lot in the world, for quite sometime now, appears to be a very pacifist type religion.

Just like in the days before so much government intervention in the practice of Christianity in the United States, if someone doesn't want to hear the Gospel, or is actually bothered by it, than the better of discretion is to just walk away to someplace where the person won't hear the Gospel being expressed, not being allowed to prevent thousands of other people from hearing the Gospel who might find the information being expressed interesting (e.g. on the flip side, people who don't want to view porn, find ways not to view porn, people who don't want to hear rap, find ways not to hear rap, people who don't want to hear heavy metal, find ways not to hear heavy metal, etc, without affecting the crowds that might discover that they have an interest in these things, rather for good or for ill). This Court decision just momentarily calmed some of the flames against Christianity in the United States a little, but the potential for accommodating a few stray atheists against thousands of Christians practicing their faith freely still remains in an unhealthy place.

By the way, this was kind of covered in an earlier thread.

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_Gaff_

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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oOSupermanThatHoeOo

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Well, it doesn't change the fact that God doesn't exist so I really don't care. If the feeble minded take these rituals to mean that there's even the remote possibility of truth therein...well stupid is as stupid does. Either way, spiderman walked out of this room a long time ago. Have fun in this thread peeps :)

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dshipp17

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Well, it doesn't change the fact that God doesn't exist so I really don't care. If the feeble minded take these rituals to mean that there's even the remote possibility of truth therein...well stupid is as stupid does. Either way, spiderman walked out of this room a long time ago. Have fun in this thread peeps :)

Actually, God just help me out with something about an hour and a half ago. Before that, God helped me out with something else about 2 hours before that intervention. Thank you God and thank you Jesus. For me, God is very much around.

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Tyger

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@_gaff_ said:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

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swordmasterD

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@oosupermanthathoeoo: There is no proof he does or doesn't exist so saying he flat out doesn't when there's even a whole religion that say he does is wrong until you have evidence to back your statements up please stop talking about your opinions as if they were facts

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marvel_boy2241

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@dshipp17 said:

@oosupermanthathoeoo said:

Well, it doesn't change the fact that God doesn't exist so I really don't care. If the feeble minded take these rituals to mean that there's even the remote possibility of truth therein...well stupid is as stupid does. Either way, spiderman walked out of this room a long time ago. Have fun in this thread peeps :)

Actually, God just help me out with something about an hour and a half ago. Before that, God helped me out with something else about 2 hours before that intervention. Thank you God and thank you Jesus. For me, God is very much around.

Uh oh lol -MB

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oOSupermanThatHoeOo

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@dshipp17 said:

@oosupermanthathoeoo said:

Well, it doesn't change the fact that God doesn't exist so I really don't care. If the feeble minded take these rituals to mean that there's even the remote possibility of truth therein...well stupid is as stupid does. Either way, spiderman walked out of this room a long time ago. Have fun in this thread peeps :)

Actually, God just help me out with something about an hour and a half ago. Before that, God helped me out with something else about 2 hours before that intervention. Thank you God and thank you Jesus. For me, God is very much around.

It's okay that you feel that way. You don't want me involved in this conversation...trust me.

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#19  Edited By RisingBean

Well, it doesn't change the fact that God doesn't exist so I really don't care. If the feeble minded take these rituals to mean that there's even the remote possibility of truth therein...well stupid is as stupid does. Either way, spiderman walked out of this room a long time ago. Have fun in this thread peeps :)

You may have gotten lost with that smack talk that insults quite a few. Lemme show you where you need to go.

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The_Deathstroker

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#20  Edited By The_Deathstroker

@oosupermanthathoeoo: "the fact that God doesn't exist"? Can I see some evidence to back that radical statement up?

On a side note to everyone, does anyone else notice that the extreme atheists only hate on Christianity waaaaaaaay more than, well, quite frankly, ANY other religion? What's with their infatuation with Christianity?

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#21  Edited By Pharoh_Atem
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...this should be entertaining.

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Wolverine008

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Well, it doesn't change the fact that God doesn't exist so I really don't care. If the feeble minded take these rituals to mean that there's even the remote possibility of truth therein...well stupid is as stupid does. Either way, spiderman walked out of this room a long time ago. Have fun in this thread peeps :)

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_Gaff_

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@tyger said:
@_gaff_ said:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yes, outside of the Gov.

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marvel_boy2241

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@_gaff_ said:

@tyger said:
@_gaff_ said:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yes, outside of the Gov.

Exactly. It doesn't matter what god they were praying to. All that matters is they were praying to agod. Any god. Which means they must be making a nod to someones religion. The first amendment clearly inhibits this behavior withing the government lol. -MB

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#25  Edited By _Gaff_

@marvel_boy2241 said:
@_gaff_ said:

@tyger said:
@_gaff_ said:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yes, outside of the Gov.

Exactly. It doesn't matter what god they were praying to. All that matters is they were praying to agod. Any god. Which means they must be making a nod to someones religion. The first amendment clearly inhibits this behavior withing the government lol. -MB

Not entirely sure we agree.

People can pray wherever they want. But Gov. officials should not be able to use there powers to endorse any form of religion.

So, starting a Gov. meeting with a prayer is " respecting an establishment of religion". But if a representative wants to read from the bible while he has the floor, that's ok. Because of "no law... prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Understand?

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magnablue

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@dernman: but it's goverment meetings. separation of church and state. ever heard of it?

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The_Deathstroker

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@hylian: Of course all of us have heard of it. But it's not saying it's required, but it's simply saying that it's allowed if wanted. It's not a big deal, at all.

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#28  Edited By marvel_boy2241

@_gaff_ said:

@marvel_boy2241 said:
@_gaff_ said:

@tyger said:
@_gaff_ said:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yes, outside of the Gov.

Exactly. It doesn't matter what god they were praying to. All that matters is they were praying to agod. Any god. Which means they must be making a nod to someones religion. The first amendment clearly inhibits this behavior withing the government lol. -MB

Not entirely sure we agree.

People can pray wherever they want. But Gov. officials should not be able to use there powers to endorse any form of religion.

So, starting a Gov. meeting with a prayer is " respecting an establishment of religion". But if a representative wants to read from the bible while he has the floor, that's ok. Because of "no law... prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Understand?

Yeah. That's what I'm saying. If a politician, for example, had the floor then, yeah. It makes sense because the government itself isn't subscribing to a particular religion. But an official government meeting should not be adhering to a religion due to the first amendment. We agree lol. -MB

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Rebel_Leader1

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Well, it doesn't change the fact that God doesn't exist so I really don't care. If the feeble minded take these rituals to mean that there's even the remote possibility of truth therein...well stupid is as stupid does. Either way, spiderman walked out of this room a long time ago. Have fun in this thread peeps :)

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magnablue

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@The_Deathstroker: If everyone there is of one religion then maybe i could understand but this is a very diverse country with a lot of people believing different things so praying would probably favor one religion and exclude the rest.

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The_Deathstroker

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#31  Edited By The_Deathstroker

@hylian: Wow, um.... You just contradicted yourself a lot.

"This is a very diverse country with a lot of people believing different things"

Okay. This makes sense.

"Would probably favor one religion and exclude the rest."

See how this contradicts your first statement? You go from diversity to exclusion.

And in regards to this statement itself, they never said only one religion could pray, like I said, they're not even requiring anyone to pray at all; Jews don't have to pray to Hindu gods; Hindus don't have to pray to the Jewish God; Atheists don't have to pray to the Christian God.

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Spider-Man

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#32  Edited By Spider-Man

@oosupermanthathoeoo said:

Well, it doesn't change the fact that God doesn't exist so I really don't care. If the feeble minded take these rituals to mean that there's even the remote possibility of truth therein...well stupid is as stupid does. Either way, spiderman walked out of this room a long time ago. Have fun in this thread peeps :)

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LOL

Spider-Man is here, and he believes in God.

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@wolverine08 said:

@oosupermanthathoeoo said:

Well, it doesn't change the fact that God doesn't exist so I really don't care. If the feeble minded take these rituals to mean that there's even the remote possibility of truth therein...well stupid is as stupid does. Either way, spiderman walked out of this room a long time ago. Have fun in this thread peeps :)

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LOL

Spider-Man is here, and he believes in God.

Pete's a good guy :)

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Kal'smahboi

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If you ask me, they shouldn't have to rule on this. Anybody who begins a public meeting with a prayer is being an ass.

"I'm a ____ and I assume that you all are, too. So sit and listen to this prayer that we all obviously agree on and respect at the same level."

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#35  Edited By judasnixon
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@hylian said:

@dernman: but it's goverment meetings. separation of church and state. ever heard of it?

Don't be snide. If you don't want to have a mature conversation don't bother.

Is it being used to effect laws or governing? No there is your separation. Other than that it's just people expressing their faith.

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dernman

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@hylian said:

@The_Deathstroker: If everyone there is of one religion then maybe i could understand but this is a very diverse country with a lot of people believing different things so praying would probably favor one religion and exclude the rest.

Nobody is inhibiting anyone from following their own beliefs. In fact this insures it more than if they banned it.

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#38  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@dccomicsrule2011 said:
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...this should be entertaining.

I've made popcorn, wants some?

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Sure.

The more snacks the better. This thread has instant classic written all over it.

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magnablue

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@_gaff_ said:

@marvel_boy2241 said:
@_gaff_ said:

@tyger said:
@_gaff_ said:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Yes, outside of the Gov.

Exactly. It doesn't matter what god they were praying to. All that matters is they were praying to agod. Any god. Which means they must be making a nod to someones religion. The first amendment clearly inhibits this behavior withing the government lol. -MB

Not entirely sure we agree.

People can pray wherever they want. But Gov. officials should not be able to use there powers to endorse any form of religion.

So, starting a Gov. meeting with a prayer is " respecting an establishment of religion". But if a representative wants to read from the bible while he has the floor, that's ok. Because of "no law... prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Understand?

Yeah. That's what I'm saying. If a politician, for example, had the floor then, yeah. It makes sense because the government itself isn't subscribing to a particular religion. But an official government meeting should not be adhering to a religion due to the first amendment. We agree lol. -MB

Exactly.

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The_Deathstroker

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#41  Edited By The_Deathstroker

@hylian: First you say it's diverse, then you say it will only focus on one.

Taken from the dictionary:

Diverse: showing a great deal of variety.

Focusing on one is not a great deal of variety, therefore it's a contradiction.

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The court isn't making anyone do anything nor are they establishing or supporting any religion. They're simply doing their job and establishing freedom of religion and religious expression. No one is making anyone pray if they don't want to.

THIS!!!

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magnablue

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@The_Deathstroker: what i am trying to say the country itself is very diverse. there is no doubt about that. but if we start praying where ever and when ever we want then some people may feel excluded

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willpayton

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@dernman said:

@hylian said:

@dernman: but it's goverment meetings. separation of church and state. ever heard of it?

Don't be snide. If you don't want to have a mature conversation don't bother.

Is it being used to effect laws or governing? No there is your separation. Other than that it's just people expressing their faith.

You may have heard of Separation of Church and State, but apparently you dont understand it. When the government is promoting, encouraging, or funding religion... then it's violating the separation of church and state.

If you want to go to a government meeting and pray, no one is stopping you. But, if you go to a government meeting and it starts with a prayer, then that government is promoting that religion.

The court isn't making anyone do anything nor are they establishing or supporting any religion. They're simply doing their job and establishing freedom of religion and religious expression. No one is making anyone pray if they don't want to.

This has nothing to do with "making anyone pray". The Constitution doesnt say "the government can do whatever it wants as long as it doesnt make anyone pray". This is just an incredibly simplistic and naive way of looking at government and religion.

Government meetings starting with prayer promotes that religion. It tells those there that this is the official religion of the government. To those who dont believe in that religion, it tells them that they're second class citizens, or at worse that they are not welcome there. It also gives off the impression that you should pray along, because otherwise you might not get equal treatment. This is why we separate church and state, because the two dont mix and when you make government a religious institution then you automatically start repressing other groups.

Saying "you dont have to pray" or "you can just ignore the prayer" is like telling a woman at a job where she's constantly harassed that she should just ignore it.

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magnablue

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@dernman said:

@hylian said:

@dernman: but it's goverment meetings. separation of church and state. ever heard of it?

Don't be snide. If you don't want to have a mature conversation don't bother.

Is it being used to effect laws or governing? No there is your separation. Other than that it's just people expressing their faith.

You may have heard of Separation of Church and State, but apparently you dont understand it. When the government is promoting, encouraging, or funding religion... then it's violating the separation of church and state.

If you want to go to a government meeting and pray, no one is stopping you. But, if you go to a government meeting and it starts with a prayer, then that government is promoting that religion.

@pperspectiveandreality said:

The court isn't making anyone do anything nor are they establishing or supporting any religion. They're simply doing their job and establishing freedom of religion and religious expression. No one is making anyone pray if they don't want to.

This has nothing to do with "making anyone pray". The Constitution doesnt say "the government can do whatever it wants as long as it doesnt make anyone pray". This is just an incredibly simplistic and naive way of looking at government and religion.

Government meetings starting with prayer promotes that religion. It tells those there that this is the official religion of the government. To those who dont believe in that religion, it tells them that they're second class citizens, or at worse that they are not welcome there. It also gives off the impression that you should pray along, because otherwise you might not get equal treatment. This is why we separate church and state, because the two dont mix and when you make government a religious institution then you automatically start repressing other groups.

Saying "you dont have to pray" or "you can just ignore the prayer" is like telling a woman at a job where she's constantly harassed that she should just ignore it.

THANK YOU

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deactivated-5fbfd5d291164

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I don't see the big deal.

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dernman

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@dernman said:

@hylian said:

@dernman: but it's goverment meetings. separation of church and state. ever heard of it?

Don't be snide. If you don't want to have a mature conversation don't bother.

Is it being used to effect laws or governing? No there is your separation. Other than that it's just people expressing their faith.

You may have heard of Separation of Church and State, but apparently you dont understand it. When the government is promoting, encouraging, or funding religion... then it's violating the separation of church and state.

If you want to go to a government meeting and pray, no one is stopping you. But, if you go to a government meeting and it starts with a prayer, then that government is promoting that religion.

That would only be true if they only allowed only one religion which they are not.

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willpayton

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#48  Edited By willpayton

I don't see the big deal.

It's the FIRST Amendment. They made it the first amendment for a reason. It's important. Maybe not to you, but to others it is. If you disagree, please go live in Iran and then tell us how you think that freedom of/from religion is no big deal. I will buy you the plane ticket.

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Wolverine008

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TimeLordScience

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This isn't worth arguing about.