The Official Dragon Age Thread

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#1  Edited By Dragonborn_CT

This is a thread where we talk to all things related to the DA games, books, comics and related. As well any updates on news about Dragon Age: Inquisition.

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What is your favorite class in the games?

What is your favorite origin?

What are you going to play in the third game?

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#2  Edited By _Grifter_

Favorite Class: Rogue

Favorite Origin: I loved the Dwarf Casteless origin, but for the most part I played Human Noble.

I'll probably start off with a Human Rogue. I don't know if any races will be playable in Inquisition.

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@grift3r: It has been officially announced you can play as any race: human, elf, dwarf and it has been recently announced, qunari as well are playable too.

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While you can choose what race you play, there won't be any origins for each race like in the first game.

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#4  Edited By _Grifter_

@dragonborn_ct: Part of me has always wanted to play as a Qunari. But it would be so much better if there was an origin story that explained how and why your character became the Inquisitor.(That's what I hear people calling the main character in a few vids I watched.) Otherwise, it doesn't really make sense to have one of the Qun as a part of the inquisition. Or one of the Dalish.

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@grift3r: Yeah, that is exactly his/her name. While there won't be Origins to explain how s/he became the Inquisitor, the races you play will have just as much effect in the story. If its any better, your character will be fully voiced like Hawke in DA2. And the dialogue wheel is here to stay too.

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What we know so far:

1. While not quite a open world game, the maps will be massive and will cover Ferelden, Orlais and the Free Marches.

2. The player character is fully voiced like Hawke in DA 2 but can be from multiple races like the Grey Warden in DA: O

3. Among your companions,there is Cassandra Penthegast and Varric from previous games, as well a new mage companion named Vivienne and yet-unnamed Qunari.

4.The game is all about navigating the politics of the various political power centers in the world. You may be independent, but that doesn’t mean everyone, everywhere will just let you in to peak into their private affairs. That’s okay though, because you can do things like lay siege to stubborn lords’ fortresses. (With the Frostbite 3 engine this sort of warfare could be extraordinary. If there is a multiplayer portion of the game, I’d love to see it take shape as a fortress-siege/warfare mechanic.)

5. The story of Dragon Age Inquisition is not linear. The world is apparently huge, with the Frostbite 3 engine allowing for huge levels and the game design promoting exploration across multiple kingdoms and major cities. Better still, the game’s narrative progresses as your organization ratchets up its power. The way to do that is to explore as much of the game world as possible. As a fan of exploration in games, this is marvelous news. The sameness of Dragon Age II’s corridors was its worst shortcoming.

6. The Templar-Mage Civil War serves as background for the game, the story is about a tear in the Veil that is allowing demons to enter Thedas and the entire point of the game is to found who is behind this. (Personally, I believe that Flemeth is behind it)

7. You get to use horses and other mounts in this game.

8. The combat will be both tactical and action-based.

9. PC gamers will have an optimized mouse-and-keyboard system, something left out of the second Dragon Age. Gameplay will be basically the same across all five systems, but next-gen and PC will look prettier.

10. Romance sidequests are back too.

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#7  Edited By _Grifter_

@dragonborn_ct: I didn't necessarily hate Hawke's voice. I'm not saying I was a fan of it, just that I was okay with it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see if Bioware had improved upon the dialogue wheel. I do like that what race you choose affects the world.

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Here are some concept arts for the third game.

It has been confirmed that a new variety of Templar enemies will appear - the monstrous Red Templars.

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#10  Edited By The_PAIN

Have you happen to make a Dragon Age Wiki in CV?

Links?

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Thanks

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#15  Edited By Gambit474

I'd say it's reasonable to be skeptical on how good this game will actually be. After the Mass Effect 3 ending controversy I think it would be wise to be somewhat suspicious of Bioware as to if they can pull off a successful game without disappointing people..Mass Effect 3 was highly anticipated like this until it fell short at the end. Let's just hope it's different with DA 3 and that they find some form of redemption in the fans with it

I wasn't too fond of the health not regenerating out of combat thing I read once about the game in Gameinformer. I hope the combat isn't like DA O because it bored the heck out of me sitting there watching my guy attack someone..I hope it's more like Mass Effect but in Dragon Age terms(swords and spells)where YOU control your attacks like in DA 2 but has some tactics to it yes. I just hope the characters are done better since Anders for ex was kind of cool in Awakening but then he becomes a whiny bitch and bisexual in DA 2..It just felt like they ruined his character and I hated what they did to Justice because Justice was one of my favorite characters. I'm glad there will be voices for our characters though..I hated the whole silent protagonist in the first. In this day and age I think that sort of thing should be gone because we should be able to have multiple voices to pick from for our characters,but I think that depends more on how much time the company wants to spend with it. I just felt like my guy had no emotion or personality by just standing there staring at everybody

For ex Isaac Clarke in Dead Space..Didn't say ANYTHING in the 1st and felt like some grunt who takes orders whereas when he started talking in 2 it's like he became a completely different character

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#16  Edited By Raiiyn

@gambit474: BE OPTIMISTIC!

To be honest, I'm kinda wondering how Sandal is going to fit in all this... O_O

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@raiiyn said:

@gambit474: BE OPTIMISTIC!

To be honest, I'm kinda wondering how Sandal is going to fit in all this... O_O

yes yes I know however DA 2 wasn't received as well as DA O and after the Mass Effect 3 controversy...I don't want to get my hopes too high in case Bioware winds up messing up again.

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@raiiyn said:

@gambit474: BE OPTIMISTIC!

To be honest, I'm kinda wondering how Sandal is going to fit in all this... O_O

yes yes I know however DA 2 wasn't received as well as DA O and after the Mass Effect 3 controversy...I don't want to get my hopes too high in case Bioware winds up messing up again.

Well, of course not. Even though Bioware improved some aspects like Hawke having a voice, they really let the ball drop in other areas. Like the maps. The game seemed rushed. And like you mentioned, what they did to Anders... He was my favourite part of Awakening and honestly, I'd rather he just not have been involved in DA 2 than what they did to him. I'm really hoping though, considering how much Bioware has asked for Fan input, that they do it right this time. Plus they've taken much more time on this installment than DA 2. Like DA 2 was released only a year and 4 months after Origins and its already been almost 2 years since DA 2 was released. (okay more like a year and a half but still, you get the point ;P)

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One word: Leliana.

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Dragons and sht

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#21  Edited By Raiiyn

@joygirl: What about Isabella? Can we make that two words ;P

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#23  Edited By RDClip

Human Warrior with a two-handed weapon, my go-to for any RPG I play.

I'm super pumped for DAI, though cautiously. Dragon Age: Origins is one of my all-time favourite games and I was really looking forward to DA2. However, I think BW changed too much too quickly between DAO and DA2 and it caused so much backlash for it. Hopefully they learned their lesson and will take more from DAO while improving it rather than changing everything (and please let me gear up and customize my companions, Varric was wearing the same clothes for 7 years, gross)

After recently playing through both games again (with Awakening and DLCs), I can say that although DA2 isn't as good as DAO, it still has its merits. The combat felt more intense and the crafting was simpler than most RPGs. The story is the thing that really rankled me my first playthrough. DAO has a very big epic feel where you are the hero trying to save the world from a horde of evil monsters; a very simple but effective fantasy premise. DA2 is a more personal story about a person's rise from obsurity to wealth and prominance while trying to keep a city from tearing itself apart. The saving grace of the story of DA2 are the very intense emotional moments (one at the end of act 1 and another in the middle of act 2). I really enjoyed the family dynamic between Hawke, Bethany/Carver, and their mother. (wish there was more than there was in the game)

I didn't really feel much sympathy for either the Mages for the Tempars in DA2 because both sides resort to extreme measures at the drop of a hat. Templars are kill-crazy zelots and Mages resort to blood magic if someone looks at them the wrong way. BW tried really hard to get rid of black and white morallity in this conflict to the point where it seems Thedas would be a better place without the Chantry or Mages.

I hope DAI is good because I want this series to continue. BW created a very interesting world that I want to explore more in future games. I especially want a game set in the Tevinter Imperium with each class being magically augmented.

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#24  Edited By Crom-Cruach

please do not suck rotten donkey balls like DA2, please de not suck rotten donkey balls like DA2, please do not suck rotten donkey balls like DA2

I hope it's a least as good as DA:O thought the more I read the less I expect it.

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#25  Edited By Raiiyn

@joygirl said:

@raiiyn: Nuuuuu Leliana >>>>>> all

alright, alright ;P

Her appearance was definitely a highlight in DAII. Which look for her do you prefer?

Leliana's song was also a fun expansion ^.^

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#26  Edited By Gambit474

@raiiyn said:

@gambit474 said:

@raiiyn said:

@gambit474: BE OPTIMISTIC!

To be honest, I'm kinda wondering how Sandal is going to fit in all this... O_O

yes yes I know however DA 2 wasn't received as well as DA O and after the Mass Effect 3 controversy...I don't want to get my hopes too high in case Bioware winds up messing up again.

Well, of course not. Even though Bioware improved some aspects like Hawke having a voice, they really let the ball drop in other areas. Like the maps. The game seemed rushed. And like you mentioned, what they did to Anders... He was my favourite part of Awakening and honestly, I'd rather he just not have been involved in DA 2 than what they did to him. I'm really hoping though, considering how much Bioware has asked for Fan input, that they do it right this time. Plus they've taken much more time on this installment than DA 2. Like DA 2 was released only a year and 4 months after Origins and its already been almost 2 years since DA 2 was released. (okay more like a year and a half but still, you get the point ;P)

well not only Anders..but Justice too. I found Justice to be one of my favorite characters in DA A but then they had Anders corrupt him

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#27  Edited By Raiiyn

@gambit474: I kinda think it was a mutual corruption if not more Justice who corrupted Anders.

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I mean... he encourages Anders to strike against the Templars? He even doesn't think having a pet is 'just'. He is after all, a spirit. They even discuss how spirits become demons.

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Anders went into discussion of how he corrupted Justice in DA 2 but I've not played the game in so long to remember how he explained it..The things Justice said were more in line with his theme of "justice"..Anders's became more along the lines of vengeance

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@gambit474: Anders may think it was him... but Justice is still a veil spirit and sounded pretty vengeancey throughout awakening. I mean, I adored him, don't get me wrong. But if anything, they corrupted each other.

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@raiiyn said:

@gambit474: Anders may think it was him... but Justice is still a veil spirit and sounded pretty vengeancey throughout awakening. I mean, I adored him, don't get me wrong. But if anything, they corrupted each other.

Nah there's a difference between justice and vengeance..it's just a complicated thing to explain. For ex Captain America would be justice whereas The Punisher would be vengeance..it's two different principles. Justice went about how he viewed his ways in the veil.he doesn't really know how the templars and mages really were compared to Anders..not to mention Anders was a lot more extreme on the whole mages vs templars then anyone else

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#31  Edited By SC  Moderator

Great thread! I love Dragon Age, I am most familiar with warriors, specifically two handed warriors, and I usually like playing as humans and if I can female human warriors. Pretty sure its because of my early fandom of Rogue from X-Men. Something super epic to me about a girl swing around a giant sword lopping off creatures heads.

I know DA 2 gets a lot of criticism but I actually really liked it, but mainly because of the characters and interactions and my character getting a voice. Will definitely be getting Dragon Age 3, probably not right away but definitely eventually, and I hope it will blend my favorite parts from both games, and also really hope that characters from first two games show up somehow.

Favorite characters are Varric, Alistair, Isabela, Morrigan, Leliana and my dog. I still need to play with more character types and roles though too, try different personalities.

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@raiiyn said:

@gambit474: Anders may think it was him... but Justice is still a veil spirit and sounded pretty vengeancey throughout awakening. I mean, I adored him, don't get me wrong. But if anything, they corrupted each other.

Nah there's a difference between justice and vengeance..it's just a complicated thing to explain. For ex Captain America would be justice whereas The Punisher would be vengeance..it's two different principles. Justice went about how he viewed his ways in the veil.he doesn't really know how the templars and mages really were compared to Anders..not to mention Anders was a lot more extreme on the whole mages vs templars then anyone else

You're totally not paying attention to companion banter are you? Anders was a pushover in Awakenings, who while not happy about Templar/Mage relations, would never have done anything if not encouraged by Justice. Did you pass over the clip I posted or did it just go over your head that Justice, as Justice and NOT as Vengeance, encouraged Anders to do something against the Templars? Justice was already halfway corrupt from being in the veil. And your comparison is way off btw. Justice was definitely not Captain America :/ He saw things in black and white and things are never black and white.

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@sc said:

Great thread! I love Dragon Age, I am most familiar with warriors, specifically two handed warriors, and I usually like playing as humans and if I can female human warriors. Pretty sure its because of my early fandom of Rogue from X-Men. Something super epic to me about a girl swing around a giant sword lopping off creatures heads.

I know DA 2 gets a lot of criticism but I actually really liked it, but mainly because of the characters and interactions and my character getting a voice. Will definitely be getting Dragon Age 3, probably not right away but definitely eventually, and I hope it will blend my favorite parts from both games, and also really hope that characters from first two games show up somehow.

Favorite characters are Varric, Alistair, Isabela, Morrigan, Leliana and my dog. I still need to play with more character types and roles though too, try different personalities.

Nice... I like the characters interactions better in DA 2. I found that in the previous game, I loose some of my teammates because their approval was too low, so I had to play their approval to the max its was so tiring. In the second game, at least they stick up to you, even if you are their rivals.

BTW, which one did you side with in the end? Templars or Mages?

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#34 SC  Moderator

@dragonborn_ct said:

Nice... I like the characters interactions better in DA 2. I found that in the previous game, I loose some of my teammates because their approval was too low, so I had to play their approval to the max its was so tiring. In the second game, at least they stick up to you, even if you are their rivals. BTW, which one did you side with in the end? Templars or Mages?

Thanks and yeah, I mean there are some great interactions in Dragon Age Origins, also I need to play it a lot more to get some I might have missed out on, but the characters in Dragon Age 2 seemed to like each other more and more playful with each other. Like how Isabela would call Merrill Kitten and Varric and Isabela and their banter. Oh man and I like Morrigan but she like hates all my decisions but I do not like not helping people? Feels unethical not to just help people. Heh heh. Always annoys her though. So yeah I get what you mean.

I went with the Mages, but I wanted to play it neutral since members from both sides annoyed me, but since I was playing as a warrior and so had Bethany in my party and I was fond of Merril and also Isabela and Varric seem a bit more anti-authority/anti-Meredith decisions actions to me (I didn't care for Anders too much) and Aveline I liked but she seemed more loyal to me and what I decided. Basically I went with Mages because my group personality seemed more organic going that route. How about you? I do need to play through and go the other route though, since I hear it gives Templar side a few more angles.

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@sc: I sided mostly with the Mages too... I know almost every mage we meet resorts to blood magic and it was a blood mage that murdered Hawke's mother, but the Templars are way worse (its not just because I am Assassin's Creed fan :P). When I sided with the Templars, I felt like taking part on a blood bath against innocent people for the actions of a single terrorist and they didn't even took part in it, and even then, by the end, you become Viscount of a city devastated by the conflict. At least in the mage's ending you are fighting for an ideal of freendom. I know the mage's oppression is caused by the fear of another Tevinter Empire rising (which from what I heard, it seems like a pretty crappy place to live for non-mage people) but the Templars are simply overbearing, religiously intolerant, intrusive, manipulative and you can argue - the very reason many mages turn to blood magic and much worse than the Imperium. Lets see what are they guilty of: Planning genocide? Alirk already beat them to that one. Condoning genocide? Cullen's got that one covered. Carrying out a genocide? On so many levels, they've been doing it for two games and a few centuries. Sexual abuse? Alirk goes for two. Psychological abuse? Find me a templar who isn't guilty of this one. Drug abuse? Every Templar is required doing this. I've seen people accusing them of being just like Nazis and they wouldn't be too far off. And let me tell you one thing, I felt like driving a knife into Carver's heart when I saw him siding with the Templars, I should have let him die in the Deep Roads like I do in my playthoughs as a mage.

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#36  Edited By Gambit474

@raiiyn said:

@gambit474 said:

@raiiyn said:

@gambit474: Anders may think it was him... but Justice is still a veil spirit and sounded pretty vengeancey throughout awakening. I mean, I adored him, don't get me wrong. But if anything, they corrupted each other.

Nah there's a difference between justice and vengeance..it's just a complicated thing to explain. For ex Captain America would be justice whereas The Punisher would be vengeance..it's two different principles. Justice went about how he viewed his ways in the veil.he doesn't really know how the templars and mages really were compared to Anders..not to mention Anders was a lot more extreme on the whole mages vs templars then anyone else

You're totally not paying attention to companion banter are you? Anders was a pushover in Awakenings, who while not happy about Templar/Mage relations, would never have done anything if not encouraged by Justice. Did you pass over the clip I posted or did it just go over your head that Justice, as Justice and NOT as Vengeance, encouraged Anders to do something against the Templars? Justice was already halfway corrupt from being in the veil. And your comparison is way off btw. Justice was definitely not Captain America :/ He saw things in black and white and things are never black and white.

Yes I do pay attention to it..It sounds like you're the one not paying attention to the difference between the two. That's not true about Anders at all..When you first run into him it wasn't clear if the darkspawn killed those Templars or if he did it himself while escaping,as he made it clear himself that he attempted escape multiple times..If he's willing to blow up the chantry I'm pretty sure he's willing to kill templars along the way too. Of course Justice is going to encourage him..Do you not comprehend what the concept of Justice is? Justice was pretty much implying that Anders and other mages should stand up against their oppressors because yes that would be considered justice,however ANDERS wanted to just strike back at them because he felt vengeful and had a personal grudge against them. Tell me how many mages had an attitude as extreme as Anders? Very very few..Hell even other mages like Morrigan,Wynne,and others weren't that hardcore about it. Rofl my comparisons aren't off buddy..Cap's known as one of the most respectable leaders around but if it makes you feel better then I'll say someone like Superman or Spider-man instead..Smh. It'd be no different from other guys like Tyrael who was the angel of justice in Diablo 2/3..

Justice says what he does because his actions would be justice..Anders wants it because it's out of his own personal feelings which is why it was revenge. Anders went over this himself which in turn proves your theory wrong however I don't think you seem to be grasping that Justice vs Vengeance will dwell into philosophy..You should probably look up the difference between the two. Also dragon don't show so much hate towards the templars..they aren't all bad. Do recall Alistair was a templar too,not a full one of course but still a templar,and he turned out fine

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@raiiyn said:

@gambit474 said:

@raiiyn said:

@gambit474: Anders may think it was him... but Justice is still a veil spirit and sounded pretty vengeancey throughout awakening. I mean, I adored him, don't get me wrong. But if anything, they corrupted each other.

Nah there's a difference between justice and vengeance..it's just a complicated thing to explain. For ex Captain America would be justice whereas The Punisher would be vengeance..it's two different principles. Justice went about how he viewed his ways in the veil.he doesn't really know how the templars and mages really were compared to Anders..not to mention Anders was a lot more extreme on the whole mages vs templars then anyone else

You're totally not paying attention to companion banter are you? Anders was a pushover in Awakenings, who while not happy about Templar/Mage relations, would never have done anything if not encouraged by Justice. Did you pass over the clip I posted or did it just go over your head that Justice, as Justice and NOT as Vengeance, encouraged Anders to do something against the Templars? Justice was already halfway corrupt from being in the veil. And your comparison is way off btw. Justice was definitely not Captain America :/ He saw things in black and white and things are never black and white.

Yes I do pay attention to it..It sounds like you're the one not paying attention to the difference between the two. That's not true about Anders at all..When you first run into him it wasn't clear if the darkspawn killed those Templars or if he did it himself while escaping,as he made it clear himself that he attempted escape multiple times..If he's willing to blow up the chantry I'm pretty sure he's willing to kill templars along the way too. Of course Justice is going to encourage him..Do you not comprehend what the concept of Justice is? Justice was pretty much implying that Anders and other mages should stand up against their oppressors because yes that would be considered justice,however ANDERS wanted to just strike back at them because he felt vengeful and had a personal grudge against them. Tell me how many mages had an attitude as extreme as Anders? Very very few..Hell even other mages like Morrigan,Wynne,and others weren't that hardcore about it. Rofl my comparisons aren't off buddy..Cap's known as one of the most respectable leaders around but if it makes you feel better then I'll say someone like Superman or Spider-man instead..Smh. It'd be no different from other guys like Tyrael who was the angel of justice in Diablo 2/3..

Justice says what he does because his actions would be justice..Anders wants it because it's out of his own personal feelings which is why it was revenge. Anders went over this himself which in turn proves your theory wrong however I don't think you seem to be grasping that Justice vs Vengeance will dwell into philosophy..You should probably look up the difference between the two. Also dragon don't show so much hate towards the templars..they aren't all bad. Do recall Alistair was a templar too,not a full one of course but still a templar,and he turned out fine

I said he's not like Cap because Justice is not as respectable or fair as Cap is. Like at the end of the day, I think you really need to realize he's a veil spirit. And while he may have embodied a virtue of mankind, the line has always been thin between Justice and Vengeance and I'm talking out of game. One person's justice is another's revenge.

Would you like me to send another link to the video I posted earlier? Or provide a transcript? I can do that for you, if you need it.

Let's just have a quick play by play anyways.

First banter scene:

  1. Justice notes that Ander still has his 'feline companion'.
  2. He then states that to 'enslave another creature does not seem just.'
  3. Anders points out he is not a slave but a friend and a cat.
  4. Justice responds that it is a 'cat that lacks freedom'.

Second banter scene:

  1. Justice notes that Anders struggles against his oppression.
  2. Anders states that he avoids his oppression, which is not the same thing.
  3. Justice than questions why Anders does not strike a blow against his oppressors in order to ensure that they can do this to no one else, quite enthusiastically.
  4. Anders replies sarcastically that it seems difficult.
  5. Justice states that Apathy is a weakness. **do note the word weakness here. It's a telling use of the adjective if you think about it for a moment.

Third banter scene:

  1. Justice says that he believes Anders 'has a responsibility to his fellow mages'.
  2. Anders states 'that bit of self-righteousness is directed at me'
  3. 'You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed' - word for word what Justice tells Anders.
  4. Anders says that he could also mind his own business in case the chantry comes knocking.
  5. Justice says to Anders that 'it's not right. He has an obligation.'
  6. Anders says 'well, welcome to the world, spirit.'

Fourth banter scene:

  1. Anders questions whether Justice said he could become a demon.
  2. Justice angrily responds that he said no such thing.
  3. Anders states that he just said demons were spirits who were perverted by their desires.
  4. Justice states he has no such desires.
  5. Anders says he must have some desires.
  6. Justice, angry still, says he has none and to desist with his questions.

Fifth banter scene:

  1. Anders apologizes for suggesting Justice would become a demon and says he just wondered about the relation between spirits and demons as demons are a worry to any mage.
  2. I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me. - word for word what Justice says.

Now, let's review. Justice seems to have anger issues and feels very passionately about the mages plight though Anders does seem to want to stay out of it.

jus·tice

/ˈjəstis/

Noun
  1. Just behavior or treatment.
  2. The quality of being fair and reasonable.

If we look at the above definition of justice, and compare said definition to the words and emotions expressed above, justice does not appear to be very... well, just. In fact, he seems almost unreasonable and stuck in his ways, doesn't he? Angry even, when others don't seem to agree with him or go against him. Wouldn't a spirit of justice seek to reason things out before becoming angry, if angry at all? One would hope so. After all, anger is a demon. (aka rage demon)

venge·ance

/ˈvenjəns/

Noun
Punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong.

Now if we look at the definition for vengeance, it seems we get a little closer to the character's portrayal, don't we? In saying that Anders should strike a blow against the Templars, he is saying that Anders should seek retribution for the wrongs done him and his fellow mages.

Very clear cut and easy to see now that it's all been laid out for you. Your enlightenment has been my pleasure :)

(P.S. Which dragon are you referring to? I thought the dragons hated humans equally?)

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Gambit474

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#38  Edited By Gambit474

@raiiyn said:

@gambit474 said:

@raiiyn said:

@gambit474 said:

@raiiyn said:

@gambit474: Anders may think it was him... but Justice is still a veil spirit and sounded pretty vengeancey throughout awakening. I mean, I adored him, don't get me wrong. But if anything, they corrupted each other.

Nah there's a difference between justice and vengeance..it's just a complicated thing to explain. For ex Captain America would be justice whereas The Punisher would be vengeance..it's two different principles. Justice went about how he viewed his ways in the veil.he doesn't really know how the templars and mages really were compared to Anders..not to mention Anders was a lot more extreme on the whole mages vs templars then anyone else

You're totally not paying attention to companion banter are you? Anders was a pushover in Awakenings, who while not happy about Templar/Mage relations, would never have done anything if not encouraged by Justice. Did you pass over the clip I posted or did it just go over your head that Justice, as Justice and NOT as Vengeance, encouraged Anders to do something against the Templars? Justice was already halfway corrupt from being in the veil. And your comparison is way off btw. Justice was definitely not Captain America :/ He saw things in black and white and things are never black and white.

Yes I do pay attention to it..It sounds like you're the one not paying attention to the difference between the two. That's not true about Anders at all..When you first run into him it wasn't clear if the darkspawn killed those Templars or if he did it himself while escaping,as he made it clear himself that he attempted escape multiple times..If he's willing to blow up the chantry I'm pretty sure he's willing to kill templars along the way too. Of course Justice is going to encourage him..Do you not comprehend what the concept of Justice is? Justice was pretty much implying that Anders and other mages should stand up against their oppressors because yes that would be considered justice,however ANDERS wanted to just strike back at them because he felt vengeful and had a personal grudge against them. Tell me how many mages had an attitude as extreme as Anders? Very very few..Hell even other mages like Morrigan,Wynne,and others weren't that hardcore about it. Rofl my comparisons aren't off buddy..Cap's known as one of the most respectable leaders around but if it makes you feel better then I'll say someone like Superman or Spider-man instead..Smh. It'd be no different from other guys like Tyrael who was the angel of justice in Diablo 2/3..

Justice says what he does because his actions would be justice..Anders wants it because it's out of his own personal feelings which is why it was revenge. Anders went over this himself which in turn proves your theory wrong however I don't think you seem to be grasping that Justice vs Vengeance will dwell into philosophy..You should probably look up the difference between the two. Also dragon don't show so much hate towards the templars..they aren't all bad. Do recall Alistair was a templar too,not a full one of course but still a templar,and he turned out fine

I said he's not like Cap because Justice is not as respectable or fair as Cap is. Like at the end of the day, I think you really need to realize he's a veil spirit. And while he may have embodied a virtue of mankind, the line has always been thin between Justice and Vengeance and I'm talking out of game. One person's justice is another's revenge.

Would you like me to send another link to the video I posted earlier? Or provide a transcript? I can do that for you, if you need it.

Let's just have a quick play by play anyways.

First banter scene:

  1. Justice notes that Ander still has his 'feline companion'.
  2. He then states that to 'enslave another creature does not seem just.'
  3. Anders points out he is not a slave but a friend and a cat.
  4. Justice responds that it is a 'cat that lacks freedom'.

Second banter scene:

  1. Justice notes that Anders struggles against his oppression.
  2. Anders states that he avoids his oppression, which is not the same thing.
  3. Justice than questions why Anders does not strike a blow against his oppressors in order to ensure that they can do this to no one else, quite enthusiastically.
  4. Anders replies sarcastically that it seems difficult.
  5. Justice states that Apathy is a weakness. **do note the word weakness here. It's a telling use of the adjective if you think about it for a moment.

Third banter scene:

  1. Justice says that he believes Anders 'has a responsibility to his fellow mages'.
  2. Anders states 'that bit of self-righteousness is directed at me'
  3. 'You have seen oppression and are now free. You must act to free those who remain oppressed' - word for word what Justice tells Anders.
  4. Anders says that he could also mind his own business in case the chantry comes knocking.
  5. Justice says to Anders that 'it's not right. He has an obligation.'
  6. Anders says 'well, welcome to the world, spirit.'

Fourth banter scene:

  1. Anders questions whether Justice said he could become a demon.
  2. Justice angrily responds that he said no such thing.
  3. Anders states that he just said demons were spirits who were perverted by their desires.
  4. Justice states he has no such desires.
  5. Anders says he must have some desires.
  6. Justice, angry still, says he has none and to desist with his questions.

Fifth banter scene:

  1. Anders apologizes for suggesting Justice would become a demon and says he just wondered about the relation between spirits and demons as demons are a worry to any mage.
  2. I do not know what makes demons as they are. Such evil angers me. - word for word what Justice says.

Now, let's review. Justice seems to have anger issues and feels very passionately about the mages plight though Anders does seem to want to stay out of it.

jus·tice

/ˈjəstis/

Noun
  1. Just behavior or treatment.
  2. The quality of being fair and reasonable.

If we look at the above definition of justice, and compare said definition to the words and emotions expressed above, justice does not appear to be very... well, just. In fact, he seems almost unreasonable and stuck in his ways, doesn't he? Angry even, when others don't seem to agree with him or go against him. Wouldn't a spirit of justice seek to reason things out before becoming angry, if angry at all? One would hope so. After all, anger is a demon. (aka rage demon)

venge·ance

/ˈvenjəns/

Noun
Punishment inflicted or retribution exacted for an injury or wrong.

Now if we look at the definition for vengeance, it seems we get a little closer to the character's portrayal, don't we? In saying that Anders should strike a blow against the Templars, he is saying that Anders should seek retribution for the wrongs done him and his fellow mages.

Very clear cut and easy to see now that it's all been laid out for you. Your enlightenment has been my pleasure :)

(P.S. Which dragon are you referring to? I thought the dragons hated humans equally?)

You're basing your OPINIONS on what you THINK happened all because of their banters,whereas Anders himself EXPLAINED what happened in Dragon Age 2,or do you just purposely ignore his explanation since Anders who had Justice bonded with him pales in comparison to what a player thinks instead? Lol enlightened..Dream on bub. For ex when I mentioned Tyrael earlier..Tyrael acted the same way Justice does but I guess that means you can all of a sudden accuse him of being vengeful too right? Wrong. Hell, Justice was acting that way before he even left the veil..Here's a great discussion on this very topic

Anders turning Justice into Vengeance

More Anders and Justice

Anders and Justice
Now sure..all of these do say that Justice might have had some play on Anders,however it was Anders's anger in the end that truly warped Justice as they had said. But hey if you need more proof then that since you seem to ignore Dragon Age 2 and focus on your banters,perhaps let's have Anders explain it himself yet AGAIN as he admits that it was his fault that Justice became what he was

Loading Video...

I really don't know why you're trying to refute me since Dragon Age 2 explains exactly what I've been saying

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Ostyo

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@dragonborn_ct: I've only played a little bit of the second game, and I found it kinda interesting but confusing at the same time. Is it important to play the games in order?

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@ostyo said:

@dragonborn_ct: I've only played a little bit of the second game, and I found it kinda interesting but confusing at the same time. Is it important to play the games in order?

If you want to understand better the plot I would advise you to do this. No surprised that people who were introduced to the series would have been lost, specially when characters from the previous game are treated as important but you know very little about them. Besides you can transplant all your decisions and actions from the first game and the expansions into the second one.

Just one thing: the gameplay of the first game is very tactical and strategical, it may seem a little boring for people who played the dynamic, action-based gameplay from the second game.

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However the third sounds as if it'll do a mixture of the two,which really shouldn't be that hard because that was how Mass Effect was during its entire trilogy. Speaking of such,i'm sitting here playing Dragon Age Origins again and did not notice that Murdock in Redcliffe has Zaeed's voice and an old woman NPC I talked to had Dr.Chawkawas(idk how to spell her name)..Just kind of interesting to see that their voices appeared in Dragon Age first(though I can't recall if Mass Effect 1 came out first or if DAO did instead)

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@dragonborn_ct: Do you mean gameplay is completely different, like no similarities what so ever?

That's not a problem for me. I'm just curious.

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@ostyo said:

@dragonborn_ct: Do you mean gameplay is completely different, like no similarities what so ever?

That's not a problem for me. I'm just curious.

Not very different on PC but yeah, in the console, its very different :P

You are welcome, I would say the gameplay in DA 2 is better than DA:O as well the characters and interactions, the plot in the other hand, not so much. The story has three major story arcs and each of them end inconclusively.

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To me to plot of DA 2 makes me feel like there's not much more to offer in DA..Templars vs the Mages can get repetitive and old quick. The Blight was a major threat and it got dealt with..Now we have a war that just doesn't seem as enticing as an archdemon. Compared to Mass Effect it just makes me wonder as to what they can come up with in DA

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#45  Edited By Dragonborn_CT

To me to plot of DA 2 makes me feel like there's not much more to offer in DA..Templars vs the Mages can get repetitive and old quick. The Blight was a major threat and it got dealt with..Now we have a war that just doesn't seem as enticing as an archdemon. Compared to Mass Effect it just makes me wonder as to what they can come up with in DA

I came to realize one thing about Dragon Age 2 plot, and its kinda genius if you can get over the fact its a completely different type of storyline than the one in DA: O, the Templar/Mage conflict is sorta dull and the endings are virtually unchanged and very disappointing. What if there is no main villain driving the conflict? No Archedemon, no dark lord, no tyrant, no Big Bad. Sure, Meredith is the final boss regardless of your allegiance, but almost every side in the conflict has its share of blame too, even Hawke and his friends. Had they not have found that Red Lyrium idol, them possibly Meredith would have not be driven insane at the end of the game, if Isabela had not delivered the Tome of Kolun, there would have been much bloodshed avoided by the Qunari. This had me thinking on a lot of things that could have happened. I do agree that the Templar vs Mages storyline did get repetitive, and it honestly, nothing would have changed if Hawke had never being in the picture.

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#46  Edited By SC  Moderator

@dragonborn_ct said:

I sided mostly with the Mages too... I know almost every mage we meet resorts to blood magic and it was a blood mage that murdered Hawke's mother, but the Templars are way worse (its not just because I am Assassin's Creed fan :P). When I sided with the Templars, I felt like taking part on a blood bath against innocent people for the actions of a single terrorist and they didn't even took part in it, and even then, by the end, you become Viscount of a city devastated by the conflict. At least in the mage's ending you are fighting for an ideal of freendom. I know the mage's oppression is caused by the fear of another Tevinter Empire rising (which from what I heard, it seems like a pretty crappy place to live for non-mage people) but the Templars are simply overbearing, religiously intolerant, intrusive, manipulative and you can argue - the very reason many mages turn to blood magic and much worse than the Imperium. Lets see what are they guilty of: Planning genocide? Alirk already beat them to that one. Condoning genocide? Cullen's got that one covered. Carrying out a genocide? On so many levels, they've been doing it for two games and a few centuries. Sexual abuse? Alirk goes for two. Psychological abuse? Find me a templar who isn't guilty of this one. Drug abuse? Every Templar is required doing this. I've seen people accusing them of being just like Nazis and they wouldn't be too far off. And let me tell you one thing, I felt like driving a knife into Carver's heart when I saw him siding with the Templars, I should have let him die in the Deep Roads like I do in my playthoughs as a mage.

Heh heh I agree, great points. I was odd in that I played Dragon Age 2 before Dragon Age Origins, and so blood magic became a bit more taboo but ultimately I think what's more important is intentions. It reminds me a bit of Marvel and mutants, with mutants = mages. So I agree, as far as trying to take out a whole branch of people is far too extreme and no group has that much power or authority. That its far more important to teach, train and educate rather than control or deny people rights?

That being said its yeah as far as stories go its compelling stuff to use as a way to provide ideological conflict. I really liked your break down as well, I almost feel like the developers want us to be on mages side as far as taking the heroic route.

I am excited by the idea of exploring more of Thedas. This might even seem strange but I am really curious about what other continents night look like and if we will ever reach a stage in the game series where we can travel really absurd distances to explore locations. I really appreciate how this game has created its own in depth mythology and history.

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#47  Edited By Gambit474

@dragonborn_ct said:

@gambit474 said:

To me to plot of DA 2 makes me feel like there's not much more to offer in DA..Templars vs the Mages can get repetitive and old quick. The Blight was a major threat and it got dealt with..Now we have a war that just doesn't seem as enticing as an archdemon. Compared to Mass Effect it just makes me wonder as to what they can come up with in DA

I came to realize one thing about Dragon Age 2 plot, and its kinda genius if you can get over the fact its a completely different type of storyline than the one in DA: O, the Templar/Mage conflict is sorta dull and the endings are virtually unchanged and very disappointing. What if there is no main villain driving the conflict? No Archedemon, no dark lord, no tyrant, no Big Bad. Sure, Meredith is the final boss regardless of your allegiance, but almost every side in the conflict has its share of blame too, even Hawke and his friends. Had they not have found that Red Lyrium idol, them possibly Meredith would have not be driven insane at the end of the game, if Isabela had not delivered the Tome of Kolun, there would have been much bloodshed avoided by the Qunari. This had me thinking on a lot of things that could have happened. I do agree that the Templar vs Mages storyline did get repetitive, and it honestly, nothing would have changed if Hawke had never being in the picture.

Isabella giving the tome back didn't make a difference because the Arisok already said that the way they lived their lives in the city disgusted him. That conflict was inevitable as soon as he stepped foot onto Kirkwall..As for Hawke and them,Varric had already told Cassandra that they didn't know what they were walking into when they found that idol so it's kind of hard to blame them when they didn't even know what the idol did. Bartrand would've been the one to really take the blame since it was he who walked out with it. Meredith wouldn't have needed the idol to go insane since she was already hardcore on the mages in the first place..The idol just sped up her attitude big time

Anyways..After playing Dragon Age 2 again I noticed that some of the quanari were named "Sten." At first this got me like "wait..is that OUR Sten?"but then I came to the realization that perhaps our Sten was no different from when that one quanari explained about their mage's name/title in that escort mission for the most obnoxious character in the game aka Pertrice. Since there is more then one "Sten" it occured to me that perhaps Sten is not much different..It's his name and title. That makes me assume the Quanari have no formal names

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#48  Edited By Dragonborn_CT

@dragonborn_ct said:

@gambit474 said:

To me to plot of DA 2 makes me feel like there's not much more to offer in DA..Templars vs the Mages can get repetitive and old quick. The Blight was a major threat and it got dealt with..Now we have a war that just doesn't seem as enticing as an archdemon. Compared to Mass Effect it just makes me wonder as to what they can come up with in DA

I came to realize one thing about Dragon Age 2 plot, and its kinda genius if you can get over the fact its a completely different type of storyline than the one in DA: O, the Templar/Mage conflict is sorta dull and the endings are virtually unchanged and very disappointing. What if there is no main villain driving the conflict? No Archedemon, no dark lord, no tyrant, no Big Bad. Sure, Meredith is the final boss regardless of your allegiance, but almost every side in the conflict has its share of blame too, even Hawke and his friends. Had they not have found that Red Lyrium idol, them possibly Meredith would have not be driven insane at the end of the game, if Isabela had not delivered the Tome of Kolun, there would have been much bloodshed avoided by the Qunari. This had me thinking on a lot of things that could have happened. I do agree that the Templar vs Mages storyline did get repetitive, and it honestly, nothing would have changed if Hawke had never being in the picture.

Isabella giving the tome back didn't make a difference because the Arisok already said that the way they lived their lives in the city disgusted him. That conflict was inevitable as soon as he stepped foot onto Kirkwall..As for Hawke and them,Varric had already told Cassandra that they didn't know what they were walking into when they found that idol so it's kind of hard to blame them when they didn't even know what the idol did. Bartrand would've been the one to really take the blame since it was he who walked out with it. Meredith wouldn't have needed the idol to go insane since she was already hardcore on the mages in the first place..The idol just sped up her attitude big time

Anyways..After playing Dragon Age 2 again I noticed that some of the quanari were named "Sten." At first this got me like "wait..is that OUR Sten?"but then I came to the realization that perhaps our Sten was no different from when that one quanari explained about their mage's name/title in that escort mission for the most obnoxious character in the game aka Pertrice. Since there is more then one "Sten" it occured to me that perhaps Sten is not much different..It's his name and title. That makes me assume the Quanari have no formal names

Yeah, but not exactly what I meant... I said that it doesn't quite have a single Big Bad figure driving the conflict but many people at once has its share of blame to go around. Its more like the circumstances that caused things to go badly.

And indeed, Qunari have no formal names. Sten is a actually a military rank and all Qunari are referred by their social rank and task. Some Qunaris have nicknames like Ketojan and Rassan (she appears only in the comic BTW) and there are several Stens around, and just for the record, according to the DA comic book (that is Bioware's official canon), the Sten from the first game became the Arishok after the his death in DA 2.

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#49  Edited By Gambit474

Yeah I know about the comic...Though Sten's comment about Dragon blood in his veins almost made me think that maybe he became a grey warden too. A Quanari Grey Warden..hmm

Also your point about no single driving force applies to Dragon Age Origins as well..The blight was only one of the problems. There was also Loghain and then afterwards the Architect and the Mother in Awakening and of course Flemeth

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#50  Edited By Gambit474

So I've noticed that Bioware showed signs of ignoring our choices or giving us very few options on how our game ends back in Dragon Age 2 compared to Mass Effect 3. For ex..no matter what you choose Anders still blows up the Chantry,your mother still dies,Merril still causes the Keeper's death,and many other occurrences that seem to end the same no matter what you do. I'm starting to question how well Inquisition will truly be with how Bioware has performed so far in handling our choices and decisions