The Official A Song of Ice & Fire Thread

@dragonborn_ct: I thought they were gonna skip the Valonqar storyline altogether until they announced the castings, I want Zoe Wanamaker to play her. I still hope they use that flashback one day.

It's good theat they are willing to do them though, I hope we get Robert's Rebellion flashbacks so much, Benedict Cumberbatch would be awesome as Arthur Dayne, though he probably wouldn't do it.

@rogueshadow: yeah man I just don't know what to think about the casting. I really like the people that were cast including Areo Hotah who I always pictured as dark skinned. I'm just worried about people being left out.

They did leave out Willas and Garlan, combining those guys into Loras' character but none if them are PoV characters

@cregan_stark: I don't mind as much with most, I can cope with Willas and Garlan, even though I prefer them both to Loras. But if she isn't cast, I sort of wonder what this means for the books, how important is she? And how important are the Sand Snakes, they've cast all the ones who are adults, I think they must have big parts to play or they would've left them out. I'm wondering if they'll skip over Aegon too, with only three seasons left, they've got a lot of material to get through. I sort of expect Aegon to reject her, or seek to have multiple wives, which I can't imagine her going for.

@rogueshadow: In all fairness, there seems the possibility that Arianne might be introduced later into the show when she is sent into a convoy to meet up Aegon on Season 6 if that is the case. After all the Reeds were supposed to show up on Season 2, but they eventually appeared an season later :v

I am still clinging to that possibility...

@dragonborn_ct: I don't see how they can skip over her when we know next season will basically be Dorne's season, she's the Dornish character. I might've thought they were planning to reveal her later, but I really would've thought they'd release it at Comic con. They can't really have her in season 6, some characters aren't even through ASOS yet, if that's the case, they must plan on cutting out a hell of a lot of material.

@rogueshadow: they can't skip over Aegon, no way!

It could be possible that they are keeping Aegon a secret until he's revealed.

I also expect Aegon to attempt to have multiple wives (Arianne, Dany, Sansa and Margery). But Dany will kick his ass.

@cregan_stark: I don't think Margeary somehow, I think she'll be gone when he gets there, I expect that Cersei will win [Robert Strong has to win, or he's an utterly pointless chaacter], and the Tyrell/Lannister union collapses, leading to Margaery somehow being smuggled out of KL. I'm not sure if he could have all four, even though he's a Targ, it jsut seems too much for him to get a hold of the four [five, if Sansa becomes acting Lady of the Vale, which is probable] most powerful houses in the land simultaneously. Although it would be a good to seem like Aegon has total control. Do you think Aegon will get his hands on a Dragon?

I don't know, I'm pretty much sure Arianne is gone, I hope I'm wrong, but I just have a gut feeling. V & E could be kept, as that casting call was the Dornish new cast, if they aren't in this season then I'm convinced the Iron fleet has been replaced by the Meereenese fleet, no way is there time for that plot in season 6, they've already used up about 70% of ADWD for Dany, there's really just the marriage plans, the Dragonpit and the Dothraki sea, which could be done by episode 5. Unless they drag it out and once again have Tyrion take up so much screen time and add a ton of filler.

Btw, were you annoyed with the filler last season? It's not that I'm a purist, but I felt that they basically used up about 3 hours of screen time that could have been used to further the plot and we would have had time for all these plots that they now don't have time for. Not to mention this seasons episodes were considerably shorter n general.

@rogueshadow: oh I was just naming potential targets for Aegon. I don't actually know if Aegon will ride a dragon, I'm not sure he lives long enough. I see Aegon continuing to take Westeros by storm and gathering support from powerful families, finally he takes the IT only to be unseated (killed) when Dany arrives. I do think he's a Blackfyre descendent from the female line but not sure he's a dragon rider. I think Dany and Jon will sure ride dragons, maybe Bran, maybe Tyrion, maybe Victorian, maybe Euron, maybe Stannis (I don't think he lives long enough). There are so many options that I'm not sure who the 3rd rider will be.

I hope you're wrong too lol, I would be pissed if they cut Arianne and the Iron Fleet. Who is going to attack the Reach if not the IF? I know it will never happen but I was hoping for a bearded Ray Stevenson to show up as Victorian.

I was upset that they left things out in order to add filler material but I do think they did a pretty good job of capturing the main content as this was easily the lost eventual book so far in the series.

@rogueshadow: @cregan_stark: A new rumour emerged claiming that Winds of Winter will be finally released around the premiere of the fifth season.

http://highlighthollywood.com/2014/07/george-rr-martins-winds-of-winter-possibly-released-for-game-of-thrones-s5-debut-highlight-hollywood-news/

@cregan_stark: I think he's gonna die late WOW, early ADOS, but I do think we'll get another Dance of the Dragons, and I don't think you can have ADWD without both sides having a Dragon, though I'm not sure where he could get it from. I think he might be Aerion Targeryan's descendant, just something I've always speculated, he was completely passed over in the line of succession, essentially because he was a psychopathic dick.

I guarantee you we see major cuts, they don't have the budget for all the battles coming up, just of the ones we know of. I expect the battle of ice and the battle of fire split across 5 & 6, doubt we'll see Euron's attacks on the Reach, Aegon attack the Stormlands.

No way is GRRM finishing these books before the series unless they extend it to at least 8 seasons, which would make it very tight. I'm not one of these guys who hates on Martin for not finishing the books, but I can't help but get annoyed when I go on his not a blogs and website to see all the stuff he's doing, and not writing the books. I wish he'd finish the damn things.

I hoped for the same casting, and James Purefoy as Euron. It's like I've always said, just get the whole damn cast of Rome.

I don't think Jon will ride a Dragon you know, Dany for sure, no way is anybody else getting hold of Drogon but her. I've always speculated Jorah, There are so many possibilities, but who [if anybody] do you think will slay a Dragon?

I think Jaime and possibly Tyrion.

@dragonborn_ct: I heard about that, not sure how much faith to put in it, I already had my heart broken when there were rumours of a November 2013 release.

@rogueshadow: oh the old Bright Flame, did he have kids? It was him who drank wildfire right?

The battle of Mereen, Ice and Winterfell will likely need HUGE budgets. I also expect to see another battle of the trident.

I also get a bit annoyed when he's doing everything but writing, we've been waiting for years. At the pace he's writing he likely won't finish the series at all. HBO could do something awesome and give us some Dunk and Egg shows which he writes.

I've said all along that James Purefoy is my dream cast member. He'd make a nice Euron, Lyn Corbray or even Robertt Golver but I always wanted him as Mance.

@dragonborn_ct: I hope it's a lot sooner than that

@cregan_stark: Just the one I believe, yeah, that's him, lol. He's the main antagonist in THK, which I haven't read, though the graphic novel is good.

I'd love a Dunk & Egg series, I still think a Robert's Rebellion film could be an epic. What was the budget for the battle at the Wall? I'd imagine that the battle of fire especially will be double that, with the fleets and the Dragons, it'll be pretty epic. but then GOT is a big money maker, so HBO and WB will be willing to dish a good amount. I think Dunk & Egg would work really well as a Web Series, the same way HALO did it.

Mance in the show is kinda meh, I wouldn't want him wasted on that part, he's barely done anything yet. But Purefoy as Mance from the books? Hell yeah.

I do think we'll get a GOT film one day, there's LOTR levels of potential in it for them.

I was lmost 29 days off.

Did I missed something?

@cregan_stark: @rogueshadow:

What does everyone think will happen with the Stannis/Bolton conflict?

Assuming Stannis is alive which I believe, he probably faked his death to get the Nights watch support/get the Boltons guard down.

My biggest fear is Ramsay getting his hands on Stannis and doing what he did to Theon (Reek) and my second biggest fear is Melisandre betraying him (though that's unlikely)

So who will win the Battle of Winterfell?

Ps http://bryndenbfish.wordpress.com/2013/11/19/a-complete-analysis-of-the-upcoming-siege-of-winterfell-part-2/

@giantsfan576: Stannis is definitely alive, The Pink Letter was a lie and I'm not even sure it was written by Ramsay. There are so many people who could have written it but if you believe in The Great Northern Conspiracy as I do than you'd have certain suspects and their reasons for wanting Jon to March to Winterfell. I certainly don't believe that it was written by Stannis.

As for the battle, the sample Theon chapter actually hints to Stannis' plan and how it will go down. I think that eventually Ramsay and his forces (combined with Freys) will be caught between Stannis and the massive Manderly army. This will lead to a short siege at Winterfell where the other Northmen complete one phase of their plan and overthrow Roose.

Ultimately the Bolton and Freys are doomed and there will be a new king recognized in the north.

@cregan_stark: I sure hope you're right

@giantsfan576: all signs point to things going in that direction.

@cregan_stark: more of an opinionated question rather than analyzing and predicting but do you think Dany is a pointless character if she never gets to Westeros?

I'm hoping she does at SOME point but if she dies or just stays in Mereen forever wasn't it all just a big waste of time?

@giantsfan576: Dany will most definitely return to Westeros. In my opinion, She'll do so after things settle down a bit in Westeros with Aegon on the Iron Throne and then we will have a Dance of Dragons.

@cregan_stark: Why do you think Aegon will sit the throne?

@giantsfan576: the kid is already taking Westeros by storm, he will continue to gather support and he's already strong enough to challenge the Lannisters. With the flip flopping nature of the Tyrells and their alliance with the Lannisters in trouble, I can see them turning over their support to Aegon.

I don't think he'll hold it but I certainly think he takes the throne for a while.

@cregan_stark: ehhh there's some evidence the "Aegon" taking Westeros by storm that Varys said was in the south to Kevan Lannister isn't the real Argon in the free cities, I forget what exactly but look it up.

Also recall Varys' riddle to Tyrion, power is just an illusion, it resides where men think it resides.

@cregan_stark: Littlefinger has been beating Varys in the game of thrones so this could be Varys turn, perhaps this Aegon in the south is a trick, or perhaps not

@giantsfan576: Aegon whether he be real or fake is in Westeros capturing the Stormlands and gathering support.

As for Littlefinger, he certainly isn't beTing Varys. He's no closer to the throne then he was when he started. Littlefinger has no one at his side and no army; Sansa will likely abandon him in the next book after he tries to kill Robin, neither the North, Riverlands or The Vale will follow him and his position will be even weaker when Davos returns with Rickon. Honestly I would be shocked if he survived the next book.

@giantsfan576: @cregan_stark: I don't think it will be that short, it'll probably take a big chunk of TWOW to take Winterfell, I think there will be some other occurrence that will cause Bolton's loss to be more expedient, a well fortified Winterfell is second only to Storm's End, and in the heart of Winter, perhaps even superior. I haven't rad all of the sample chapters, what's the plan hint?

I do expect a Northern conspiracy, though not in its entirety, I don't buy LSH being in on it and I don't think its quite as developed as stated in that theory, I think there is a general consensus among the noble Lords of the North to crown Rickon or Jon [depending on how Robb worded it, I think Rickon is more likely], then I think Sansa will become regent and pretty much the most powerful woman on Earth after Dany, with the North, the Vale and the Riverlands in her pocket.

Also, this got me thinking, who do you think the best battle commander and tactician still alive is?

@rogueshadow: the hint is the way in which Stannis plans to use the lake to his advantage.

I don't believe every word of it but the general concept is something that I believe.

As for your question; I think a lot of people will immediately say Stannis as was the case on the ASOIAF board which might be the case. However Stannis made the biggest blunder that we've seen in the Blackwater. Tywin is also a great commander as we've seen but I think he's better as an over all figure (politician/general) also Tarly should be pretty good as commander. The best commanders that we've seen have been Ned and Robb Stark so I imagine that some of their advisors and bannermen could be great too.

@rogueshadow: Stannis without a doubt, he learned his lesson on the blackwater. Stannis took dragonstone, defeated the Greyjoy fleet(which previously burned lord tywins ships) held storms end to the point of starvation and defeated Mance Rayder north of the wall.

@cregan_stark: I don't think Stannis really made an error, he had no way of knowing Tywin would show up with the forces of the Reach. But I don't think Stannis, he's gritty and he has the raw ruthlessness too, but he's not banking a fierce strategic intellect like Tywin.

As strategists I'd say Tywin or Roose, he took 4,000 men [If I remember correctly] South with him and managed to lose next to none [How he did that is beyond me] and became Lord of Winterfell in the process, pretty impressive. Robb and Eddard trump him as singularly military minds, but they couldn't outwit their foes with the pen, so they are too poor of tacticians to make me think they are above Roose, they are both naive to what was transpiring around them, killing Karstark, trusting Frey, ridiculous strategically.

Though I think Roose was retarded to think he could hold the North for long. An uprising was always inevitable.

@rogueshadow: he made several errors IMO; not putting Davos in charge, being too bull headed and biggest of all was not scouting properly so that he would know about the massive army that was about to ambush him.

Roose hasn't really done anything in the way of actual battle command, he's weaseled out if confrontation and used tricks to gain power.

Ned and Robb are by far the best commanders but they are also the worst politicians which was their undoing.

@cregan_stark: not closer to the iron throne per say but LF has been doing more than Varys (manipulating Jon Arryns death making Lysa send the letter to Cat...essentially starting the war indirectly and then killing Joffery) and now he has the knights of the Vale (so yes an army) and the key to the north assuming Sansa doesn't betray him which she might.

What has Varys done in terms of the game of thrones?

@giantsfan576: but he's playing the small game why Varys is playing the big one. But are the things he did really impressive? He manipulated a deranged woman who was obsessed with him, he cause two houses who utterly hate each other to fight one another. It's not really that great of feats honestly.

Honestly he doesn't have the knights of the Vale, he has a few lords in his pocket and nothing else, most of the lords of the Vake are still very vary of him. Also he believes Sansa is the key to the North not knowing three things A) if his plan comes to fruition the Sansa and her husband would have no further use of LF B) Rickon is still alive and Davos is bringing him back C) Robb almost certainly named Jon as his heir and the lords forge north are waiting to crown the new king in the north.

Varys' schemes are so complex and well thought out that not even us as the reader knows them. All we know is he has been watching the and helping the throne fall into ruin so that the Targ that he chooses can come in and save the day, gaining aupport along the way.

@cregan_stark: Agree. LF pretty much articulated his own downfall when describing how even the smallest piece can have a mind of its own, pretty obviously Sansa. I don't think LF has as much foresight as many believe, he just causes chaos and improvises, trusting it will open doors for him to exploit, I don't think he's had a master plan sine GOT, unlike Varys, Varys probably knows everything LF has been doing and has allowed it to happen only for the sake of chaos, chaos is what he wants, so that Aegon can swoop in and save everybody.

I really think it depends how Robb wrote his will, if he said, 'due to the untimely deaths of Lord Rickon and Brandon Stark, I name my bastard brother, Jon Snow, legitimised and my rightful heir' then it could go to Rickon or Bran [depending on whether or not he remains a Greenseer] if he outright said Jon is legitimised with no connotations towards his brothers, then Jon is undoubtedly the rightful heir.

The greatest military commanders in GOT [and the real world] have had a good measure of both, rather than just strategy, which is what made Tywin so fearsome, I don't think he was the absolute best at either, but he was in the top 5 for both, which averaged him out as probably the best. I don't think yo can have one without the other in this world.

I think Jaime shows real promise, and I just imagine Tyrion would be brilliant, he's GRRM's wunderkind who is a dab hand at almost everything, he has already shown some degree of military acumen on the Blackwater.

I just find it amazing that Roose took 4000 men South and lost pretty much none, that requires a high degree of strategy. The battle for Winterfell is going to be insanely difficult for Stannis.

@cregan_stark@dragonborn_ct - Either of you have or are getting the World of Ice and Fire?

@rogueshadow: I am afraid not...

Have you seen the recent news about the show? Tyrion will meet Daenerys.

@dragonborn_ct: Yeah, they are getting get well away from the books this season, since GRRM said they'd be apart for a while in TWOW. Jorah's in the Daznk pit too, that's really weird. I hope he goes at it with Drogon, forcing Daenerys to get into the pit to save him. I really want to see a Knight battle a Dragon.

@rogueshadow: I'll probably check it out when I have time but I'm super busy now.

@rogueshadow: @dragonborn_ct: I'm not terribly worried about Tyrion meeting Dany, it's going to happen soon anyway in the books. I'm curious to see where they take things since they are running out of story

It doesn't really bother me, but GRRM said they will be apart for a good portion of TWOW and they haven't even finished ADWD yet for Dany's story, so they are way ahead of schedule. They are definitely going to eat into TWOW this series, David and Dan know the major beats of the story so they'll just keep going. I wouldn't be surprised if TWOW is actually released sometime around the premiere though.

The only thing I'm worried about is the battle loss which while I hope doesn't happen, is inevitably going to, they just can't afford it, despite their huge budget. The Battle of Ice is certainly happening, it's been foreshadowed quite heavily, but I don't think the Battles of Fire, Storm's End or Oldtown are coming.

Did you hear about Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje joining the cast? I'm not sure who he'll play, BBP or possibly Moqorro?

@rogueshadow: dude I would do a freaking backflip if TWoW was released at premier time.

My thinking is that they didn't think there would be enough interesting points from AFoC so they had to cherry pick from other books.

I read something that said the Greyjoy story line wouldn't be in this season so we will be missing a lot of battles.

Are you freaking kidding me?!?! No, I didn't hear that but I'm freaking pumped!!!! It'll be interesting to see who he plays!

It says a character named Malko that isn't in the books. I'm hoping he'll be something like Tumco Lho Lash or The Red Lamb.

@cregan_stark: A premiere release makes publicity/advertising sense because it would all just add to the hype. Yeah, I think the Greyjoys have been axed unfortunately, which is a real shame because Victarion's chapters are some of the best in AFFC, especially his ship battle. I still think they could have cut out about 4 hours of filler material from seasons 3 and 4 to put more exposition in so that they'd have space moving forwards for characters like Victarion and Arianne.

More than anything I hope Slynt gets decapitated next season. I hate that guy.

@rogueshadow: man I would freaking flip out of the book released, I've been waiting for years.

I'm also pissed about the Greyjoys possibly being cut but I'm holding out hope that they will be included in season 6 somehow. They have some of the coolest chapters.

Fetch me a block!!

@cregan_stark@dragonborn_ct

Does this picture make anybody else feel uncomfortable about the whole 'white saviour' thing:

Or is it just me?

It's a shame they can't have it like it is in the books, where a huge number of them would probably be Lyseni, Qartheen etc but that's just because of where they shoot.

@rogueshadow: To be honest with you... I don't feel so unconfortable with that imaginery because I consider Daenerys a desconstruction to the "white men's burden" protagonist. She is what a social justice activist would have been like under brutally realistic scanario - she has her heart in the right place, but she is naive to an agonizing degree. Her efforts to end a millenia long institution isn't easy (even with dragons on her side), not actually helpful to her in the long run. Not to mention, its all a big distraction to her end goal of returning to Westeros and restoring the Targaryens back to power.

It would have been far more problematic if it was played all straight, but its clearly not the case here.

@dragonborn_ct said:

Good points, but I'm not sure how the show is going to play it, she's easily overcome every obstacle she's faced so far on the show, the slave cities seem like less of an issue in the books, especially if they annex the battle of fire as I suspect they will.

I personally think she will unite the Dothraki, abandon the Slave Cities and that they will crumble into chaos and possibly collapse upon themselves. I can see her becoming a borderline villain. That's in the books though. I'm really not sure with what the TV has planned, given that they have only three seasons left, I'd assume she'll be leaving Meereen at the end of S5 because I don't think they are going to have any of the battle of fire or that subplot (unless their budget has been doubled).

I still wonder how they are going to do the inevitably huge final two or three episodes justice, because GRRM has made a point that the finale will be epic as f*ck.

@cregan_stark@dragonborn_ct - If you could go back in time and recast any character in the show, who would you change (yes, I'm bored)?

@rogueshadow: just one? That's a hard one, my initial thought is Mance but let me think on it.

I also dislike what they've done with Renly. In the books Renly is a knight who wears armor, carries a sword, and participates in tourneys; he isn't the little girlie man that the show makes him out to me.

Let me think some more........

In the meantime, same question to you.