The NBA Thread

@novi_homines said:

Why are you not including games before game 4? Why are you not including the first half? Wade was garbage throughout these playoffs and could've been benched. Jordan and Kobe have missed more GW shots than LeBron has taken for his career. Hardly "clutch" by either. ;)

I don't think I even need to critique Jordan more than I have but he was in the perfect situation, and yet AGAIN Jordan homers refuse to acknowledge that Jordan was FAR from perfect BEFORE the finals. Jordan's Bulls were destroyed routinely year after year until he got more help, but everyone forgets about that. Pippen was a below average role player, Paxson was a scrub who could barely carry Jordan's shoelaces, Horace Grant was nothing more than a set of goggles, and Phil Jackson just had a bunch of crazy sayings. Jordan was God who made them all. lol Jordan played on one team his entire career, played with multiple all stars in his prime and in theirs, had the GOAT basketball coach, and lastly played in a weak era where he caught the Pistons, Lakers, and Celtics when they were old and past their primes.

Kobe (who LeBron passed a few years ago) played with the best teammate of the 3, a prime Shaq was unstoppable, and if not for the squabbling they would have won more titles. Then Kobe's gifted with Pau (lol@ that trade at the time), and now Dwight (whom he failed with ROFL). I will say that a few of Kobe's teams were complete garbage, on the level of LeBron's Cavs but LeBron took those teams further. IIRC LeBron has missed the playoffs twice, his first two years in the league (after being forced to that hell hole know as Cleveland). Kobe has missed them once, though their situations were hardly similar as Kobe forced himself to LA and didn't even contribute his first few years.

Neither Kobe nor Jordan are getting anywhere near the finals with that horrendous 06 Cavs team. LeBron has above average teammates and the first year they get to the finals, the second year they win it all, the third year they're back in the finals.

Maybe, after all LeBron has never committed an act of adultery like they have. ;)

I read your last line first, and i'm glad I did, that's really all I needed to see.

@xanni15: If you think the 90's was a weak era for basketball, you haven't been watching very long. I'll concede that LeBron has better clutch stats than Wade statistically, but there is no way you can convince any rational basketball fan that the league is better today than when Jordan was playing. Absolutely no way. The players then were bigger, stronger, faster, and more importantly teams actually understood what defense was.

Of course MJ struggled. He missed shots and got beat a lot in his early years. Like LeBron, he was undisputedly the most talented player in the league. Unlike LeBron, Jordan had a charisma and leadership that tended to make those around him better. The coaches talked about it, his teammates talked about it, and everyone knew about it. Players that came to the Bulls tended to have record years when they played with MJ. This is what today's fans don't understand. See, to them they're looking at everything from an individual perspective. They're more concerned with the individual match-ups. But when it came to playing the TEAM game of basketball, Jordan had (and has) no peer. He had an "it" factor that Kobe and LeBron will never understand. Will MJ's personal stats be surpassed? Probably. But that's not the point. He took the game to another level with a moxy that had never been seen before, and has never been mimicked since.

In the category that matters though, winning, Jordan dominated his peers. Of course he had a decent supporting cast and a great coach, but Scottie Pippen is grossly overrated. No way in hell he would be a Hall of Fame player on any other team. The guys Jordan competed against would be rock stars in today's league. Dwight Howard? Pu-leeaze. Karl Malone in his prime would bench press a Dwight Howard and send him screaming home to his momma. These were players who actually knew what work ethic was. And the final product on the basketball court was a reflection of this. Not the sloppy, flop-fest that passes for competition today.

This is why many of us cheer against LeBron:

1. "Not one, not two, not three....."

2. LeBron named himself the King

3. He tattooed 'The Chosen One' on his back

4. Mocking Dirk for being sick

5. Comments after Game 6 of the 2011 Finals where he put himself above the "average" person

6. He quit on Cleveland

7. The Decision (not who he picked, how he announced it)

8. He chokes in memorable fashion

9. He flops

lol @ some of the things being thrown around from both sides of this arguements....

@novi_homines: You have mastered the art of ad hominem.

I've been watching since the 90's and there's nothing to show that the 90's were a stronger era of basketball over the 80's or 00's, so no need to make accusations. I guess it depends on what you think a rational basketball fan thinks, so we'll start there if you want to explain what that is Are they the ones who whine about LeBron leaving Cleveland, or those that pray at the alter of Skip Bayless? Wait... what? They were bigger, stronger, and faster in the 90's? o.O That's like the opposite of what is true, players were slower, and didn't have to deal with complex defenses being played today. Kobe, LeBron, Duncan, Kidd, Nash, KG, etc, some of the highest basketball IQ players. Comparing across eras is difficult but you take quite a few starters from the 90's and they don't make an NBA roster these days.

Unlike LeBron, Jordan went to a better team where he wasn't alone and responsible for everything as a teenager. I'm sorry, but LeBron didn't make his teammates better? The stats and facts show that not only did LeBron have a greater impact on his teammates than Jordan did, but that LeBron was a significantly better teammate than Jordan was with worse teammates. Actually, when it comes to TEAM basketball Bill Russell curbstomps Jordan even more than he does individually. Bill Russell has no peer if we're using that criteria, seeing how he's the greatest winner in the sport, and one of the greatest teammates. What exactly is the "it" factor? Another immeasurable characteristic like a "clutch gene"? Jordan's stats are not above those of others, KAJ beats him in multiple categories as does Malone, plus Kobe's gunning for him but then it's moving the goalposts. Like Jordan's 6 rings aren't enough, I guess because they're not.

And my point is that Jordan's peers were overrated, that he caught them either at the end of their careers or before their primes. The Lakers, Celtics, and Pistons were no longer playing their best when Jordan's Bulls were able to defeat them. Jordan retired before Duncan and KG got established, before Shaq and Kobe figured things out and obviously well before LeBron rolled around. ROFL, decent supporting cast and a great coach? Here we go. When Pippen was playing with Jordan he was already listed as a top 50 player all time, Phil was considered one of the best coaches ever. Pippen is actually underrated, case in point the seasons when Jordan retired the first time. The Bulls did not miss a beat advancing to the East finals and nearly the finals.How far did Jordan get without Pippen compared to how far Pippen got without Jordan?Karl Malone was a stat padding loser who couldn't get it done when it mattered, Dwight would run him out of the gym, Duncan would destroy him, and KG would eat him alive. Dwight would swat his jumping knee layup into the 14th row. That's interesting considering that Jordan was well known to cozy up to refs hours before games, to start actually caring about officials that so many players today emulate in order to get calls.

1. They said what they did for the fans in Miami, plus they were essentially saying they wanted to win as many titles as possible.
2. So?
3. And? Does he need to run his tattoo choices by you or anyone else?
4. Link?
5. Uh... he is above the average person. And people being upset over what LeBron says when they're the ones insulting him, "Don't insult us LeBron even though we insult you."
6. I'd love to hear you rationale on this one because everything points to the opposite, that Cleveland quit on LeBron and wanted to waste his career.
7. Maybe, though he did raise quit a bit of money. Plus, it's been 3 years, move on with your lives and get over it.
8. Link? And didn't you just concede that LeBron>Wade as far as "clutch"? SO Wade must be gawd awful even though common opinion is he is elite at end of games.
9. Who doesn't/hasn't?

Tim Duncan came to play.

Tim Duncan playing like a Boss !

Lebron James playing Great Defense in the Second Half...

Ginobili is looking like sh!t tonight...

@xanni15: I find it difficult to believe that you were actually watching basketball in the 90's after reading that analysis. Players were bigger, faster, and stronger. And the game overall definitely moved faster. Guards in particular were much bigger and stronger than what we see on the court today. People also played man-to-man which allowed teams to run more. Calling 90's basketball slow, is like calling America in the 60's a Sunday School picnic. It just ain't true.

Don't even talk to me about the "high IQ" in today's players. The sheer amount of Hall of Fame caliber players in the 90's was ridiculous. You want to mention Kobe, LeBron, Duncan, Kidd, and Nash? Let me throw a few names out for you. David Robinson, Young Shaq (monster Shaq, who played most of the decade), Young Penny Hardaway, Hakeen Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing, Dikembe Mutombo, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Alonzo Morning, John Stockton, Scottie Pippen (yes, overrated), Dominique Wilkins, Chris Webber, Joe Dumars, Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Mitch Richmond, Chris Mullin, Clyde Drexler, Reggie Miller, Grant Hill (injuries destroyed him), Kevin Johnson, Dennis Rodman, Tim Hardaway and of course there was Michael Jordan. Jordan beat all of them. All of them. Every one on the list. Furthermore, the teams were f***ing stacked! Role players actually meant something. None of this nonsense where three starters scored 80% of the team's points. It was much more fun to watch, and a lot less stagnant than it is today.

If you honestly think Malone was a "stat-padding loser," you really didn't watch the game. Or if you did, it was on your daddy's lap when you had absolutely no clue what was going on. Malone would absolutely destroy Dwight "the diva" Howard. While Howard has made his living going against big softies like Bosh and Gasol (laughable), Malone was sweating it in the paint vs. Rodman, Kemp, Morning, Robinson, etc. His stats sure as hell were a lot more impressive also. Oh yeah, and he won more too.

I quote the below article (linked): "It’s a safe bet you could put together an All-Star team from the ‘90s that would be the greatest team ever assembled." They already did. It was called the original Dream Team.

Check this out. Professional source where each era is compared to each other side-by-side in a methodical and rational way. Not that I expect you to give it any weight, since it's clear that we're all just a bunch of "Jordan homers." Anyway, it's worth a look if nothing else, for your education - http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1554991-ranking-each-decade-of-nba-basketball-from-the-1960s-to-today

Scottie was good, but he wouldn't have been a Hall of Famer on any other team. Talk to Houston and Portland fans about how they feel about him. He was also the biggest crybaby when MJ left the team for a couple of years. He couldn't be a leader if his life depended on it. In fact, he'd probably fit in nicely with today's "leaders." He was a good defender, I'll give him that. But his career was "made" by Michael Jordan. And that Top 50 list you mentioned was a joke. It named Bill Walton for cripes sakes - a total media darling who was healthy for like two seasons over his entire career.

As to your point about Bill Russel. You're not going to hear me talk bad about him. One of the league's first superstars for sure, and the ultimate winner without question. If shot-blocking was recorded while he was playing, he would undoubtedly still hold the record. The league was obviously smaller and less competitive when he played, but I'm not going to take anything away from him.

That being said, what sets MJ apart from a Russel or a Kobe, isn't just the stats or the championship trophies, it's the way he achieved them. Babe Ruth, Muhammad Ali, and Michael Jordan. They're each individuals who transcended the game and took their respective sports to greater heights. They're larger than life because of this. And even though they may get surpassed statistically, they will always be the measuring stick for the next generation.

Miami has come stomping back...

Lebron James is Playing like a Monster without the Headband !

Yes he is. He and Duncan came to play tonight. Really good game.

Miami lost. Spurs are Champions again...

Ray-Ray. They should create more shots for him instead of having LeBron force it, like these last 5 shots.

@vance_astro said:

Nevermind....

Ray Allen saves the Day...

We got Overtime

Damn you, Vance. Just had to jinx it.

@dreadmaster said:

The headband will be MVP if Miami wins...

Miami lost? Damn it...

Overtime!! And this my Comicvine freinds is why I love the NBA =D

Danny Green. How do the Spurs find these hidden gems?

And the Heat win and take us to Game 7...

Heh Heh...

Great game. Props to both teams. Heat got two major no-calls though. First, that mugging on Ginobli, then that "block" by Bosh which was a foul. Green should have went to the line to shoot for three. At worst it would have been a double OT, if he makes all three. They should have given it to them. Even the commentators mentioned it. Somewhere out there, David Stern is laughing.

Oh well, hope game 7 is this entertaining.

Really bad coaching by Pop down the stretch.The last two plays were missed calls by the officials but that's not we lost,we had our chances. I gotta give credit to Miami they played like champs. This lost will be tough to swallow but we have one more chance Go Spurs Go.

Your post will lift up the trophy...

Lebron's headband and Mike Miller's shoe must be like Piccolo's weighted clothes....

Great response to petty "excuses"

@daredevil21134 said:

Bad coaching? How?

@novi_homines: Lol at lebron fans making actually arguing about wade and lebron being on equal footing clutch wise. I'm not even going to get into that

Good. Don't get into that unless you got the stats to back it up.

"Excuses" that demonstrate what kind of individual he is. If you can't take the rose-colored glasses off, I'm not going to do it for you.

He played like a beast tonight, even if his ball-hogging almost cost his team down the stretch (I suppose you can chalk that up as a fresh example of #8). And Wade was mediocre tonight. Perhaps I misjudged him. In any case, it just makes the Heat easier to root against. So thanks.

I know he's a coach and i'm just the fan but that doesn't mean I don't have an opinion.I didn't like both Parker and Duncan being out the game so long.And if I remember correctly neither of them started the 4th.And I didn't like Duncan absent for the last two plays where we gave up rebounds.Just didn't any of like that.Anyways this a really rough night for me(cries)

As you requested...

4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdvK1bYMzTY

8. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3kKxtSQa-4

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1191352-2012-nba-playoffs-lebron-james-5-worst-playoff-chokejobs-of-all-time/page/7

And a bonus, from the people of Cleveland...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvgD9HNTMkM

And a double bonus, from His Airness himself...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEVCjUG1Mww&NR=1&feature=endscreen

@daredevil21134 said:

I don't know if that's necessarily bad coaching. I don't know if the outcome would have been different if they had been in.

@reignmaker: "Excuses" that demonstrate what kind of individual he is

He is a confident young man who does things the way he feels they should be done. You can't be the BEST without a LOT of confidence.

If you can't take the rose-colored glasses off, I'm not going to do it for you.

You can't take them off me. I go by stats not biased jealous opinions. 4x MVP. Taking lame Cavs to Finals. World Champion. Finals MVP. 95% of People in the HOF don't have the stats he already has.

even if his ball-hogging almost cost his team down the stretch

God.... if he passes the ball he's not agressive enough. if she shoots then he's a ball hog. Dude can't win for losing

it just makes the Heat easier to root against. So thanks

Even if they lose, they go home millionaires who don't even know the names of the people rooting against them. Hate all you like

I don't know if you can call what he was doing "ball-hogging". Taking the game into your own hands when you're team is playing poorly, as the best scorer and best player overall on the team is what you're supposed to do.

@pooty said:

This is why i'm kind of rooting for Miami at this point. No matter what Lebron does, people will find a reason to hate.

I see angry Lebron fanboys in this thread.

All I'm saying is?

LET'S GO SPURS.

I'd take my chances going into the 4th Q up 10 with at least one of my 2 best players in the game rather than have them setting on the bench on the best player's home court in the Nba Finals.Just saying.As much as a Spurs fan I am and you know I am, I really don't see us winning game 7 in Miami, but I really hope i'm wrong.

@sideburnguru said:

I don't... look harder.

QFT

I do not see the point of making other people like or hate a player, if one does not like LeBron so what? What is there to argue over? Is LeBron paying your bills? Does he even know you exist? Does him losing give you money? Does him losing pay your bills? Does him winning put money in your pocket? I really do not see the point in arguing over a celebrity/athelete to me it's pointless. If you like LeBron? Fine If you don't like him? Fine. That is the main reason I can't stand LeBron haters/fans they push there opinions down others peoples throats and wants you to take them as facts. Truth be told I'm in between I'm not a "Homer" or a "Hater" my feeling on LeBron is neutrul. He is not one of my most hated but he is sure as hell not one of my favorite,not even top 10 even. Bottom line is you people need to fine something else better to do with your time instead of jocking/hating on Lebron.

Rant over.

He's a selfish crybaby who looks incredulously toward the referee whenever a call doesn't go his way.

Never said he wasn't a great player. Of course he is. He's just not the best. Probably in top 10. Definitely not top 5.

Taking the ball down five times in a row, getting swarmed by three defenders each time, and either missing the shot or giving the ball away just isn't smart, it's stupid. There would be criticism for anyone that does that. Kobe had the same problem when he was younger. I know he was trying his best, but it shows a real lack of trust for his team mates. Even Ray Allen halfway mentioned it to the reporter in his exit interview. Heat fans should be grateful Allen got to touch the ball when he did.

I'm ok with that. You're right, they get massive paychecks. So they should be able to take the heat they get for their actions.

@daredevil21134 said:

If there is any coach that I would trust to know what they are doing in a situation like this, it's Pop. Game 7 is a toss up, but as a Spurs fan you should be optimistic. They've played very well so far on both sides of the floor. They also still have the size advantage. Timmy dropped 30 tonight.

I'm worried that Timmy might have played out everything he had left in his tank tonight.And Ginobili is a whole different topic

@reignmaker: The ONLY valid point you have made is that he is always looking for the call. That is his biggest flaw. Haters expect the dude to walk on water.

@vance_astro: I don't fault him for trying. He played great tonight. I do fault him for trying to go through three people unsuccessfully 4-5 times in a row. He got his team into that position and almost lost it for them because he was unwilling to give up the rock.

@daredevil21134 said:

I doubt that. I don't really think he exerted himself that much. It's not very hard for him to score on Bosh or grab boards over any of Miami's bigs. Ginobli didn't really show up tonight and neither did Danny Green but Gary Neal & Kawhi Leonard picked up the slack.

That's why I don't call him a ball-hog in that instance though, nobody on the Heat shot very well all night. He wasn't unwilling to give up the ball because he's a selfish player and wanted the glory for himself, he probably didn't know who to trust to take those shots.

Funny enough, I do.

You know, there's a reason why people hate Lebron. Could it because millions of other players are overlooked, while ESPN brags about him constantly?

I noticed your post before hand. That's why I hope Lebron loses, and Miami loses. I don't hate either of them. I want the media to stop hopping on Lebron's nuts constantly.

I'm a huge Jordan fan. Want to know what I won't deny? It's the same annoying shit. I'm a fan of The Bulls. Always have been, always will. Know what happens when people talk about The Bulls? "WELL, THEY'RE NOT ON JORDAN'S LEVEL." Totally overlooking the talent today. Want to know what happens without that? Now, Lebron gets all the spotlight.

It's annoying. Do I hate him personally? Hell no. Will I ever deny he's good? Hell no. Do I think he's overrated AND overhyped? God, yes. I just want the other talent to be noticed. Lebron doesn't seem to care about the other talent in my opinion.