The Marvel Trinity???

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lord_oraculous016

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#1  Edited By lord_oraculous016

DC Comics has its Trinity of icons in Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman. But who would or should be considered Marvel's Trinity? 
 
DC Comics presents Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman as their preeminent “Trinity” of icons. Not surprising, as the three are among the earliest, longest running, and most recognizable characters in comics and pop culture. Naturally, although Marvel Comics has defined itself as being unlike DC, there is discussion over who would be, or should be, considered the “Trinity” of Marvel…were there to be one. However, the nature of Marvel and their characters tend to complicate who would be those special three icons..  
 
What is the Nature of the Trinity? 
 
One of the causes of divide over which characters would comprise Marvel’s Trinity is question over what exactly any triad of characters should represent. In a classical and archetypical sense, the Trinity should be the defining and iconic Hero, Anti-Hero, and Heroine who best represent Marvel as a whole. However, some would argue that Marvel’s Trinity should be comprised of the characters who are regarded as the leaders of heroes within the context..

DC has the advantage of having their Trinity be both. Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman, in addition to being the defining icons, are also looked upon as the standard other characters look up to. But Marvel, unlike DC, has always defined itself by having less idealized characters. Their defining icons are flawed, troubled, and often angst-ridden.. 

 
So, who are the defining icons in Marvel? 
 
In a more classical and iconic sense, a Trinity of a franchise or fictional universe revolves around a core Hero, Anti-Hero, and Heroine. These three characters act as the central protagonists and defining soul of the story.. 

In Marvel’s case, its Hero would undoubtedly be Spider-Man. Arguably the print’s most famous and recognized character, Spider-Man has been the flagship character of Marvel for decades. While not the strongest of heroes, nor regarded as the great leader, his everyman persona, vulnerabilities, and troubles have come to define, not only what sets Marvel apart from DC, but Marvel as a whole.. 

If Spider-Man is the Hero, the Anti-Hero would likely be Wolverine. Breaking out into his own, he’s become a flagship character in his own right. Where there’s a purity and humor to Spider-Man, Wolverine has darkness and attitude. Haunted by his animalistic tendencies, and not afraid to do whatever is necessary, he’s not only emerged as arguably Marvel’s most popular and recognized Anti-Hero, he set a new standard for anti-heroes in general.. 

But who would be the third corner of Marvel’s Trinity? In terms of recognizability, one could make a case for a character like the Hulk, or perhaps Iron Man, who is now enjoying a whole new level of recognition thanks to his recent movies. But following the traditional Trinity format, the third character should be the definingHeroine.. 
 
So what is the Nature of a Heroine? 
 
Wonder Woman is the perfect reflection of the word. Its not about her powers but her character in general. She has the compassion of a woman, the regality of a queen and the heart of a warrior. That is what defines a heroine. She must embody the strength of femininity both in grace and beauty, as well as independence and pro-activeness.. 
 
Ultimately, when discussing who would comprise Marvel’s equivalent of a Trinity, exactly what kind must first be considered. In terms of importance within the context, it would be Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor. But in the more iconic, definitive sense, Spider-Man and Wolverine make up two of the three. However the third pillar, who traditionally would be the Heroine, is debatable.. 
 
So now comes the debate. 
 
Who embodies the word heroine in its definition and worthy to be placed in the ranks of the Marvel Trinity? 
 
all comments are welcome..
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Fireheart10

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#2  Edited By Fireheart10

From what I've seen Marvel is promoting Iron Man, Thor and Captain America as their own Trinity. As for the heroine, I don't know.

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Amegashita

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#3  Edited By Amegashita

  Marvel doesn't need a trinity, but if we're going to discuss it, how about the "Trinity" for Marvel be something a little different than what DC has going on.  If I think trinity of Marvel, I don't think of a singular character( or characters).  I see it like this,  
 
  Hero:  Avengers
  Anti-Hero:  X-Men
  Other Hero:  (This one is a little harder than the others, but I'll choose) Fantastic Four
 
  P.S:  Wolverine shouldn't be considered the Anti-Hero for Marvel if we go by singular characters.

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lord_oraculous016

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#4  Edited By lord_oraculous016
@Amegashita: this is a hypothetical question.. a question which clearly asks who among Marvel Characters fits in in the iconic and definitive sense of what comprise a Trinity which is the HERO, ANTI-HERO and the HEROINE..
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#5  Edited By Sarpio__
@Fireheart10 said:
" From what I've seen Marvel is promoting Iron Man, Thor and Captain America as their own Trinity. As for the heroine, I don't know. "
Thor reads bride's magazines, doesn't he? :)
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#6  Edited By Amegashita
@lord_oraculous016:  Yeah, but why should Marvel have to copy anything DC does?  I mean they do it all the time, but why should they do it here?  Me and you have been through this before but Marvel doesn't have Number 1 heroes.  They have number 1 teams, and in terms of trinity the best choices are to choose teams who represent Marvel, not people.  This is because Marvel really doesn't just focus entirely on singular characters, they focus greatly on teams.  
 
  Also the DC trinity is the DC trinity not only for their iconic- ness, but also because they are some of the strongest, and best at what they do in the DC universe.  Who is the greatest detective in DC?  Batman.  A trinity shouldn't just be three heroes who fall into a mold of Hero, Anti-Hero, Heroine and anything else you want to add to it.  It should be something a little less on the speculation side.  And more factual.
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Silver2467

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#7  Edited By Silver2467

BatMan is not an antihero. Where does that even come from?

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Amegashita

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#8  Edited By Amegashita
@Silver2467:  A lot of people think of Batman as an anti-hero, even though he isn't.
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lord_oraculous016

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#9  Edited By lord_oraculous016
@Sarpio__ said:
" @Fireheart10 said:
" From what I've seen Marvel is promoting Iron Man, Thor and Captain America as their own Trinity. As for the heroine, I don't know. "
Thor reads bride's magazines, doesn't he? :) "
LOL 
 
 
@Amegashita: it is not merely copying a concept.. a Trinity is defined in context divided by three subdivisions all comprised in what is the definition of a Superhero, as well as a representation of the universe they dwell in.. it has been mentioned earlier that it is not about their powers, but rather the character they represents.. you are making so much fuss on a simple question.. again, its not all about powers, its what embodies what a hero is..
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#10  Edited By SoA

Captain America, The Punisher, Storm. using your formula these 3 stand out i guess for comic fans and non comic fans alike

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Silver2467

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#11  Edited By Silver2467
@Amegashita: People assume they understand his character, and they often do not. He has layers to him. His depth is one of the primary constituents of my interest in BatMan. 
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lord_oraculous016

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@Silver2467: Anti-Hero refers to a character is generally considered to be a protagonist who at least in some regards conspicuously contrary to that of the archetypal hero, and is in some instances its antithesis.. they are those who are not your typical "Knight in Shining Armor" but more or less more of a "Dirty Harry".. and Batman fits such description to a tee.. he was even made an example in the definition of the word..
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Amegashita

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#13  Edited By Amegashita
@lord_oraculous016:  How am I fussing?  I just stated my opinion and then you came and questioned it so I responded in turn.  Truthfully speaking your whole trinity concept is already flawed.  If Marvel wants to make a trinity like DC's then they'll use three characters/ teams of the same moral standpoint who fight for the same side without convoluted goals like your average anti-hero does on a regular basis.  I said a trinity is represented by not only some of the strongest heroes, but also some of the best at what they do.  The trinity should represent all that every other heroes stand for.  And going by that, the Marvel teams I presented are much better representatives for that then some three characters that you can throw out at random.
 

@Pheonix of the white throne

said:

" The X-Men are not Anti-Heroes X-Force are "

  Yeah, but I kind of, sort of disregarded the Anti-Hero part because a trinity shouldn't be represented by a pack of brutes who would easily kill someone but it should be represented by people of a higher moral stand point.
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lord_oraculous016

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@Silver2467 said:
" @Amegashita: People assume they understand his character, and they often do not. He has layers to him. His depth is one of the primary constituents of my interest in BatMan.  "
i understand that.. but he is just not your typical Hero.. Anti-hero doesn't mean your'e evil.. it means your'e a hero with an edge..
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#15  Edited By Silver2467
@lord_oraculous016 said:
" @Silver2467: Anti-Hero refers to a character is generally considered to be a protagonist who at least in some regards conspicuously contrary to that of the archetypal hero, and is in some instances its antithesis.. they are those who are not your typical "Knight in Shining Armor" but more or less more of a "Dirty Harry".. and Batman fits such description to a tee.. he was even made an example in the definition of the word.. "
If that is the case, than Wonder Woman is an antihero. She has killed twice. The simple fact that a character is not a boyscout does not mean that they are antihero. If you believe that BatMan is, no disrespect, but you need to rigorously study his character. 
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Silver2467

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#16  Edited By Silver2467
@lord_oraculous016 said:
" @Silver2467 said:
" @Amegashita: People assume they understand his character, and they often do not. He has layers to him. His depth is one of the primary constituents of my interest in BatMan.  "
i understand that.. but he is just not your typical Hero.. Anti-hero doesn't mean your'e evil.. it means your'e a hero with an edge.. "
No heroes are "typical" heroes. All are unique. BatMan does not by any means fit the characteristics of an antihero. Again, you need to familiarize yourself with his character. 
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Amegashita

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#17  Edited By Amegashita
@Silver2467 said:
" @Amegashita: People assume they understand his character, and they often do not. He has layers to him. His depth is one of the primary constituents of my interest in BatMan.  "
  I agree with this completely.
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Silver2467

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#18  Edited By Silver2467
@Amegashita said:

" @Silver2467 said:

" @Amegashita: People assume they understand his character, and they often do not. He has layers to him. His depth is one of the primary constituents of my interest in BatMan.  "
  I agree with this completely. "
To add to what I said, the typical, inaccurate "understanding" of his character is usually along the lines of, "boy loses his parents and fights crime," as if it is that simple. 
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lord_oraculous016

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@Silver2467: i understand what you mean.. i am familiar with Batman.. if you are willing, then try to research if Batman falls in that category or not.. i think he is, and sorry to say, a lot of definitive and informative sites also says so.. i share your sentiments, but sadly he is often describe as one.. Diana killing someone doesn't really make her an anti-hero for it is not her character is general.. 
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#20  Edited By Amegashita

 @Pheonix of the white throne said:

" @Amegashita: Oh i get it you mean people who don't kill but are willing to do it if the time comes "

  Exactly.  
 
@Silver2467:  Agreed.  Anyone who actually cares to read Batman knows so much better than to make such an uninspired assumption.
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#21  Edited By Silver2467
@lord_oraculous016: I have done the research. Understanding his character as well as I do, he does not at all fit the qualifications. He has specifically taken every possible measure to ensure that he does not become an antihero. To list him as such is a complete contradiction to everything his character represents.  
 
@lord_oraculous016 said:
Diana killing someone doesn't really make her an anti-hero for it is not her character is general.. 
Nothing in BatMan's character in general really makes him an antihero either. 
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#22  Edited By ironshadow

Marvel Trinity: Ms. Marvel, Spider-Man, Iron Man 

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lord_oraculous016

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@Silver2467: well it probably goes down to what you think the definition of the word is.. for me, Anti-Hero is not a bad thing.. to me Anti-Hero equates to a Dark Hero.. he may not be you typical "boy scout" but a hero nevertheless.. 
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#24  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
Whenever I think of a trinity for Marvel, it's always the Avengers trinity. The soldier, the knight, and the god. Complying to conformities is futile; Marvel isn't DC.
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#25  Edited By Amegashita
@lord_oraculous016 said:

" @Silver2467: well it probably goes down to what you think the definition of the word is.. for me, Anti-Hero is not a bad thing.. to me Anti-Hero equates to a Dark Hero.. he may not be you typical "boy scout" but a hero nevertheless..  "

  You just used two different words with different definitions to try and describe the same thing.  Anti-Hero does not equal Dark Hero, and vice versa.
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@Morpheus_ said:
" Whenever I think of a trinity for Marvel, it's always the Avengers trinity. The soldier, the knight, and the god. Complying to conformities is futile; Marvel isn't DC. "
true. but again, this is hypothetical question which clearly states who among the fits the conventional Trinity in its iconic and definitive sense.. True DC is not Marvel, but again its about everyone's opinions.. it may not be utterly correct but there are still no wrong answers.. 
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@Amegashita: that is your definition of the word.. modern times have changed that definition of anti-hero.. 
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#28  Edited By Silver2467
@lord_oraculous016: This is why I disagree with you. I have described BatMan in many ways, but one of those ways is this. BatMan is as close as you can get to being an antihero without actually being one. He is dark. He is aggressive. He is intimidating. He is willing to go to measures that many other heroes are not. The point of divergence between BatMan and an antihero is his code. I said that he specifically takes every possible measure to ensure that he does not become an antihero. What I mean by this is that he draws an uncrossable line between himself and antiheroes and villains. He will not succumb to being either one. He goes as far as he can without conforming to either one completely. He is not an antihero. 
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#29  Edited By morpheus_  Moderator
@lord_oraculous016 said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" Whenever I think of a trinity for Marvel, it's always the Avengers trinity. The soldier, the knight, and the god. Complying to conformities is futile; Marvel isn't DC. "
true. but again, this is hypothetical question which clearly states who among the fits the conventional Trinity in its iconic and definitive sense.. True DC is not Marvel, but again its about everyone's opinions.. it may not be utterly correct but there are still no wrong answers..  "
 
The result in your question could result in a paradox, with heroes who have no real connection to one another. It would be like me asking people to create a trinity consisting of a noble supersoldier, an industrialist pioneer in a suit of armor, and a god of immense power, strictly using characters from the DCU. Sure, some characters could fit the description, but you'd have to go to such depths to comprise this group, that it could never be an iconic representation of the Company (which the DC Trinity is). Each trinity is unique in its own right.
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Amegashita

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#30  Edited By Amegashita
@lord_oraculous016:  No, actually that's pretty much common sense working.  The prefix Anti shows that what ever comes after this is essentially the opposite of what the forthcoming word is.  Anti-hero shows that this character represents a whole different moral set than a hero does.  A dark hero is just that.  He is a dark hero.  He's not the opposite of it, he doesn't break the rules like a anti-hero does.  The whole thought process of an anti-hero is "I am your jury, your judge, and I am your executioner."  The anti-hero takes the law into his own hands and does what he thinks is right to the most extreme level.  The dark hero does not.  The Punisher is an anti-hero.  Batman is not.
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#31  Edited By Silver2467
@Amegashita said:

" @lord_oraculous016:  No, actually that's pretty much common sense working.  The prefix Anti shows that what ever comes after this is essentially the opposite of what the forthcoming word is.  Anti-hero shows that this character represents a whole different moral set than a hero does.  A dark hero is just that.  He is a dark hero.  He's not the opposite of it, he doesn't break the rules like a anti-hero does.  The whole thought process of an anti-hero is "I am your jury, your judge, and I am your executioner."  The anti-hero takes the law into his own hands and does what he thinks is right to the most extreme level.  The dark hero does not.  The Punisher is an anti-hero.  Batman is not. "

That could not have been stated more clearly. The reason BatMan is not an antihero is that, despite his willingness to go to extreme measures, he still has well-defined limits that he places on himself. The extents at which he will go in order to accomplish any given goal are finite. 
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#32  Edited By Amegashita
@Silver2467:  Which is why when people who go calling Batman an anti-hero need to do a thorough revamping of their entire knowledge of his character.
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#33  Edited By Silver2467
@Amegashita: Agreed. 
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@Silver2467: i see.. so in your opinion he is not a hero nor a anti-hero but rather on a thin line of both.. would you say the same to Wolverine?
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#35  Edited By Silver2467
@lord_oraculous016 said:
" @Silver2467: i see.. so in your opinion he is not a hero nor a anti-hero but rather on a thin line of both.. would you say the same to Wolverine? "
Where did I ever say that? I said he is as close to being an antihero without actually being one. He is a hero, not an antihero, and no, I would not say that about Wolverine. Wolverine defines an antihero almost as well as Punisher does, if not as well. Do not even attempt to draw parallels between BatMan and Wolverine. They are not at all comparable. 
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@Morpheus_ said:
" @lord_oraculous016 said:
" @Morpheus_ said:
" Whenever I think of a trinity for Marvel, it's always the Avengers trinity. The soldier, the knight, and the god. Complying to conformities is futile; Marvel isn't DC. "
true. but again, this is hypothetical question which clearly states who among the fits the conventional Trinity in its iconic and definitive sense.. True DC is not Marvel, but again its about everyone's opinions.. it may not be utterly correct but there are still no wrong answers..  "
 
The result in your question could result in a paradox, with heroes who have no real connection to one another. It would be like me asking people to create a trinity consisting of a noble supersoldier, an industrialist pioneer in a suit of armor, and a god of immense power, strictly using characters from the DCU. Sure, some characters could fit the description, but you'd have to go to such depths to comprise this group, that it could never be an iconic representation of the Company (which the DC Trinity is). Each trinity is unique in its own right. "
i have also said that.. but then again, its not a matter of comical representation but rather a opinion of what you think is or is not.. like i said who fits the pillars of what comprise a trinity.. not necessarily as a group but could also be individually.. but then, i do understand what you mean that its nearly impossible to create a team as such.. but such categories still applies to some characters.. and those are the characters i want to find out..
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lord_oraculous016

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@Silver2467: i never said you did.. i asked if you would associate Wolverine to same category.. i appreciate the answer.. 
 
@Amegashita said:
" @Silver2467:  Which is why when people who go calling Batman an anti-hero need to do a thorough revamping of their entire knowledge of his character. "
probably.. but you can never really blame them for the line that separates an anti-hero to which is not is not clearly defined unlike those of a hero and a villain.. 
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#38  Edited By Silver2467
@lord_oraculous016: Not at all. 
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#39  Edited By blade hunter

This has been done.

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lord_oraculous016

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@Amegashita said:
" @Silver2467:  Which is why when people who go calling Batman an anti-hero need to do a thorough revamping of their entire knowledge of his character. "
probably.. but you could never really blamed them, the line that separates an anti-hero to one which is not is not clearly defined unlike those of a hero and a villain..
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#41  Edited By Amegashita
@lord_oraculous016:  It's defined, most people don't care enough to actually look for it.
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@Amegashita: again probably.. but people have their own interpretation of the word.. its like looking at clouds.. you see fish, i see a rabbit.. the secrets of the depth wouldn't surface if you won't look deep enough.. 
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#43  Edited By Amegashita
@lord_oraculous016:  A person's own connotation of a word does not actually equal the true denotation of the word.
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lord_oraculous016

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@Amegashita: but words are variable aspects of man's language.. they are subjected to change every now and then.. some even acquire another meaning.. some causes are changing connotations of the word..
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#45  Edited By Amegashita
@lord_oraculous016:
" @lord_oraculous016:  A person's own connotation of a word does not actually equal the true denotation of the word. "
  Connotation equals what a person thinks of when they hear a word.  The connotation has no affect on the denotation.  In fact, in terms of denotation, the connotation doesn't even matter.
 
  Denotation is the dictionary definition of the word.  <-------  This is all that really matters truthfully.
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@Amegashita: i know that but my point really is, words sometimes change their meanings overtime.. i mean for example; the word naughty at one time was an all-purpose word similar to bad.. during the 16th century one could use naughty to mean “unhealthy, unpleasant, bad (with respect to weather), vicious (of an animal), inferior, or bad in quality” (one could say “very naughtie figes” or “naughty corrupt water”).. all of these senses have disappeared, however, and naughty is now used mainly in contexts involving mischief or indecency.. this recalls its early days in Middle English (with the form noughti), when the word was restricted to the senses “evil, hostile, ineffectual, and needy..” in Middle English, the word noughti, first recorded in the last quarter of the 14th century, was derived from nought, which primarily meant “nothing” but was also used as a noun meaning “evil” and as an adjective meaning such things as “immoral, weak, useless.” Thus naughty, in a sense, has risen from nothing.. that is what i mean that words are subjected to change..
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Amegashita

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#47  Edited By Amegashita
@lord_oraculous016:  And my point is that as of right now Anti-Hero means exactly as how I've explained a page earlier.  There's no reason to change it's meaning to what you take it as because there is already a word for that. 
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lord_oraculous016

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@Amegashita: and my point, that the word Anti-Hero has changed over time.. during the Elizabethan Era, the word anti-hero is synonymous to Faust from William Shakespeare's Falstaff.. it grew even darker during the Victorian Era like the Beggar's Opera.. now the world has evolved to a much lighter version of what it used to be.. in modern times it refers to heroes which are not your typical "boy scout" or "knight in shining armor".. now the characteristics of a anti-hero is synonymous to heroic valor rather than being characteristics that are deemed un-heroic..
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Amegashita

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#49  Edited By Amegashita
@lord_oraculous016:  No, that's a dark hero.  I've already explained to you what an anti-hero is. 
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lord_oraculous016

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@Amegashita: that characteristic is still conceived as Anti-Hero.. look it up for your self if you don't believe me..