Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah my first proper blog in a while. Though no one's commented on my Doctor Octopus/Alpha speculation blog. For shame.

Admittedly battle forums on any site can be a downright nasty place to be. But recently, our battle forums have gotten quite ugly. In part, they’ve become a festering ground for annoying trolls, ignorant and angry fanboys as well as spite threads and really stupid battles. I can’t believe how many times Hancock, a T-800 from Terminator or Godzilla have been pitted up against comic book characters who would wipe the floor with them yet there are users who come up with absurd arguments as to why they win. Whether they truly believe that or are trying to be flame baiters, I have no idea.

Also, the state of the battle forums have driven a fair few users away. CitizenBane, one of the Vine’s top debaters left partly because of the amount of trolls and fanboys loitering in the battle forums. Another good debater, Dane left a while back as well and Silver6427 only comes on the Vine in intermittent periods. And whilst the state of the battle forums doesn’t drive everyone off this great comic book website, it keeps them out of the battles section.Good battles are fleeting in comparison to the number of spite battles. And I’m beginning to see all too often opinions like “BATMAN CAN BEAT ANYONE WITH PREP!” or “HULK’S WAY STRONGER THAN SUPERMAN SO HE CAN BEAT HIM UP!” There are more but fortunately not everyone’s like this. And recently I’ve noticed something that appears to be creating much better battles on the battle forums.

I believe that it’s called “Challenge a Viner” but correct me if I’m wrong. Basically, two users challenge each other to a debate. It’s a closed, one on one debate between these two users where two characters or a team or whatever the battle’s about is debated. It’s in these one on one challenges that the real crème de la crème of the Vine’s debaters shine. Proper, logically coherent reasons are given as to why a character would win. Character feats are backed up by scans, issue references or videos that support the debater’s point. The replies are aimed at countering their opponents point and proving why their character has the better reasons and feats to win. And the debate continues until a clear cut winner is reached via who gave the better reasons and feats rather than who has the most fanboys. Furthermore, it’s not just the quality of the debates that give challenging a viner much more credibility. The two debaters are reasonable, considerate and polite towards one another. There’s no rude behaviour, insults or swearing that involves a moderator having to come in and break up the fuss or lock the thread to keep it from getting out of hand. Everything’s kept friendly and no feelings are hurt. An important factor in debates such as these.

In case you’re wondering what these debates are like, I’ve provided some examples of my personal favourite Challenge a Viner debates:

The debate that inspired me to write this blog: TheAcidSkull and Killemall’s brilliant debate over Thor vs Savage Hulk - http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/thor-killemall-vs-savage-hulk-theacidskull/696970/

A currently ongoing debate between TheAcidSkull and Sherlock regarding World War Hulk vs Wonder Woman - http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/world-war-hulk-theacidskull-vs-wonder-woman-sherlock/709359/?page=2

A short but sweet debate between Power NeXus and Dane - http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/challenge-a-viner-power-nexus-vs-dane/539170/

A 3 page debate between god_spawn and NickZ about who would win: Daken or Vamp - http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/challenge-a-viner-god_spawn-vs-nickz/702574/

An awesome Star Wars debate between the Vine’s top two Star Wars experts: JediXMan and Silver2467 - http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/darth-bane-zannah-jedixman-vs-darth-maul-tyranus-silver/663464/

Another Silver debate I really liked. This time involving another class debater, Strafe Power and the battle in question being Wonder Woman vs Geo-Force - http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/silverwonder-woman-vs-strafegeo-force/578076/

A fair, friendly and well debated match between god_spawn and BringnIt regarding Gambit vs Kraven - http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles/7/gambit-god_spawn-vs-kraven-bringnit-challenge-a-viner/690249/

Of course there are many more and I’d encourage more debates like this. Obviously, I’m not saying that every battle should be Challenge a Viner style. We need the classic, open debates for everyone. And of course trolls and fanboys will be ever present on the battle forums. But after reading CitizenBane’s blog, I remarked that the battle forums needed improving and that they had the potential to be great again. The way I see it, Challenging a Viner is a step in the right direction. Those kinds of threads can remind us of how debates should be done and how the battle forums could be once again.

#1 Posted by guttridgeb (4831 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree. I love these debates. I recently had a good one with ImmortalOne which was great.

#2 Posted by laflux (14317 posts) - - Show Bio

I have trying to do a challenge debate for ages now. Have at thee. Someone challenge me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#3 Posted by The_Roman (3297 posts) - - Show Bio

Love the blog, totally get your points. I just need more stuff (scans and sh!t) to get to the point where I can CaV.

(Yes, I'm calling it CaVing.)

#4 Edited by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@guttridgeb: Really? I need to have a look on that one.

@laflux: What is it you want to debate about?

@The_Roman: CaVing. Nice way of shortening it. What scans are you gathering?

#5 Posted by The_Roman (3297 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: A lot of New 52 stuff. Got a lot of Manhunter stuff.

Going for the rest of Stormwatch, I think...

#6 Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@The_Roman: So I take it you're looking for a New 52 Martian Manhunter debate then? Or a Stormwatch debate?

#7 Posted by The_Roman (3297 posts) - - Show Bio

Just Manhunter...For now...

Laughs ominously.

#8 Posted by The_Roman (3297 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: I could perform well in a Manhunter and Midnighter debate now. Just no scans for new 52 Apollo...

#9 Posted by Strider92 (16154 posts) - - Show Bio

How did this fly under my radar? I had no idea this was going on but its a good damn idea!

#10 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

Great way to highlight this new initiative by CVer's and thanks for the links provided as well.

I pretty much avoid the Battle Forums for a myriad of reasons but the points you've brought up are definitely within the top five. But hopefully more and more people will participate in "CaVing" and those of us who enjoy reading great debates will be more inclined to get involved.

#11 Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strider92: It's been going on for a while now! I thought I should give it some attention in this blog of mine.

@lykopis: Thank you and that's sort of my intention with this blog. By showing that reasonable debates are still possible on here, people might be encouraged rather than reluctant to participate in the battle forums. CaVing appears to be a good first step of improving the battle forums for the better.

#12 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: great blog man:))).....and also THANK YOU VERY MUCH :DDDD

#13 Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheAcidSkull: My pleasure. Your ongoing debate looks set to be an awesome one! :)

#14 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull: My pleasure. Your ongoing debate looks set to be an awesome one! :)

unfortunately though that debate has been shut down, i can't enter it :(

#15 Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull: My pleasure. Your ongoing debate looks set to be an awesome one! :)

unfortunately though that debate has been shut down, i can't enter it :(

What? Why?

#16 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm glad I could help set a bar on what we are looking for. Everyone has been doing an awesome job in these debates.

Moderator
#17 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull: My pleasure. Your ongoing debate looks set to be an awesome one! :)

unfortunately though that debate has been shut down, i can't enter it :(

What? Why?

don't know.....just can't seem do enter it , can you?

#18 Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull: My pleasure. Your ongoing debate looks set to be an awesome one! :)

unfortunately though that debate has been shut down, i can't enter it :(

What? Why?

don't know.....just can't seem do enter it , can you?

No it comes up with a 404 screen.

#19 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17355 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull: My pleasure. Your ongoing debate looks set to be an awesome one! :)

unfortunately though that debate has been shut down, i can't enter it :(

What? Why?

don't know.....just can't seem do enter it , can you?

No it comes up with a 404 screen.

:( oh well, i'll PM sherlock and ask him if he still want to debate

#20 Posted by guttridgeb (4831 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17355 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Edited by mrdecepticonleader (17605 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger:

I agree the battle forum needs ways to improve it.Maybe the battle threads could be approved by a mod first,as there are alot of repeat or similar battles that do fill up some times and alot of spite ones too.Maybe there could be an anchored thread showing what battles have been done or a thread recording battles.And I think the challenging a viner should become a more usual thing,it should be encouraged,maybe not just have two viners but a few more than two.Or post poll threads and see how many votes the character gets.

These are just ideas really,that could possibly make the battle forum a happier place.

I haven't posted on there in awhile,when did last take a look it was full of trolls.

#23 Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrdecepticonleader: You mean like a group challenge? That's an interesting idea.

#24 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (17605 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@mrdecepticonleader: You mean like a group challenge? That's an interesting idea.

Yeah then people who are participating actually want to debate.

#25 Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrdecepticonleader: That would cut down the trolls and fanboys in debates I have to say.

#26 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (17605 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@mrdecepticonleader: That would cut down the trolls and fanboys in debates I have to say.

Yeah it would.And it would be what the battle threads are for.

#27 Posted by nickzambuto (13026 posts) - - Show Bio
#28 Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Ooops my bad about mixing up who the debaters were in that thread.

#29 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a much bigger fan of posting "insert name here wins" and never elaborating.  It's a tried and true tactic.

Staff
#30 Posted by nickzambuto (13026 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@nickzambuto: Ooops my bad about mixing up who the debaters were in that thread.

Me and god_spawn were supposed to debate, and did at first, but after a couple posts he decided Vamp would probably win and dropped out.

Super_Soldier picked it up from there.

#31 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

I tried something similar a few months back (Me Vs. The Mods), never got any traction, hope you can do better. The site ratio of quality to quantity is skewed way too far in the wrong direction.

#32 Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@Brazen_Intellect: It really is isn't it? But these kinds of threads are a step in the right direction IMO.

#33 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

Good blog mate, I hope the Battle Forums can continue to improve.

Moderator
#34 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger said:

@Brazen_Intellect: It really is isn't it? But these kinds of threads are a step in the right direction IMO.

Any effort above the usual drivel is much appreciated

#35 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19951 posts) - - Show Bio

You learn a lot from your opponent, so even if you lose, you can bounce back even better. To me, if you enter a debate, you never truly lose.

#36 Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget: Thanks! I'm hoping this is a way to improve them if this good trend continues.

@YourNeighborhoodComicGeek: A valuable insight. Well said.

#37 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lvenger: I just saw this! Thanks for the mention and bringing back old memories :)

As for the blog, I agree. The only way to improve the battle forums is leading by example. If anyone is looking for new ways to help the battle forums, I would be happy to brainstorm and discuss with them :)

#38 Posted by ShootingNova (15687 posts) - - Show Bio

This is a nice thread.

#39 Edited by beatboks1 (7003 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

Great way to highlight this new initiative by CVer's and thanks for the links provided as well.

challenge a viner isn't exactly new. It started a couple of years ago when many were complaining about the forums. it's just recently seen a revival.

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull: My pleasure. Your ongoing debate looks set to be an awesome one! :)

unfortunately though that debate has been shut down, i can't enter it :(

What? Why?

don't know.....just can't seem do enter it , can you?

No it comes up with a 404 screen.

:( oh well, i'll PM sherlock and ask him if he still want to debate

A disappeared thread doesn't mean necessarily men that it was shut down. Whenever a thread is shut down or deleted the OP will receive a PM to let them know that it has happened. If no such email to the OP than it was more likely a glitch that caused deletion (unfortunately it happens for time to time). A few months back three or four threads I was debating in disappeared. It was around the birth of my third child when I was posting fro my Iphone while at the hospital with my wife, I'd get home and try and edit the crappy formatting of the posts to make it more legible. I found that when I made several edits in short succession a thread would disappear. Posted it on the bug reporting thread and I'm not alone in it happening.

@YourNeighborhoodComicGeek said:

You learn a lot from your opponent, so even if you lose, you can bounce back even better. To me, if you enter a debate, you never truly lose.

That's just it, a debate shouldn't be about winning. It should be about educating, or enlightening. It should be an exchange of ideas or concepts to get to a true center or the middle ground. Debating is the pretext that democracy is made on. Orators trying to articulate their view or stance on a topic to ensure that those they represent are adequately represented and their needs accounted for.

Back in school (and I'm talking decades ago) I had an old history teacher who used to teach us that history was recorded by the victors. Every part of history we studied he would get the class involved in period long class discussions looking at the time period from the other side. We'd discuss what the view point of the American Indian was in the old west, the way German's would have seen WWII and WWI, etc etc. We'd discuss how modern politics would relate to issues of bygone eras. Those "debates" taught us how to think and question the fact, how to not take things at face value. A good debate only strengthens IMO the ability of the individual to uncover the truth, to find the best way to achieve anything. No one can ever loose from a well done debate as it only exercises and therefore strengthens the logic centers of the brain

#40 Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@Strafe Prower: My pleasure! I thought this feature should be highlighted to show how the battle forums could be improved from the amount of trolls and fanboys present in there.

@beatboks1 said:

@lykopis said:

Great way to highlight this new initiative by CVer's and thanks for the links provided as well.

challenge a viner isn't exactly new. It started a couple of years ago when many were complaining about the forums. it's just recently seen a revival.

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull said:

@Lvenger said:

@TheAcidSkull: My pleasure. Your ongoing debate looks set to be an awesome one! :)

unfortunately though that debate has been shut down, i can't enter it :(

What? Why?

don't know.....just can't seem do enter it , can you?

No it comes up with a 404 screen.

:( oh well, i'll PM sherlock and ask him if he still want to debate

A disappeared thread doesn't mean necessarily men that it was shut down. Whenever a thread is shut down or deleted the OP will receive a PM to let them know that it has happened. If no such email to the OP than it was more likely a glitch that caused deletion (unfortunately it happens for time to time). A few months back three or four threads I was debating in disappeared. It was around the birth of my third child when I was posting fro my Iphone while at the hospital with my wife, I'd get home and try and edit the crappy formatting of the posts to make it more legible. I found that when I made several edits in short succession a thread would disappear. Posted it on the bug reporting thread and I'm not alone in it happening.

@YourNeighborhoodComicGeek said:

You learn a lot from your opponent, so even if you lose, you can bounce back even better. To me, if you enter a debate, you never truly lose.

That's just it, a debate shouldn't be about winning. It should be about educating, or enlightening. It should be an exchange of ideas or concepts to get to a true center or the middle ground. Debating is the pretext that democracy is made on. Orators trying to articulate their view or stance on a topic to ensure that those they represent are adequately represented and their needs accounted for.

Back in school (and I'm talking decades ago) I had an old history teacher who used to teach us that history was recorded by the victors. Every part of history we studied he would get the class involved in period long class discussions looking at the time period from the other side. We'd discuss what the view point of the American Indian was in the old west, the way German's would have seen WWII and WWI, etc etc. We'd discuss how modern politics would relate to issues of bygone eras. Those "debates" taught us how to think and question the fact, how to not take things at face value. A good debate only strengthens IMO the ability of the individual to uncover the truth, to find the best way to achieve anything. No one can ever loose from a well done debate as it only exercises and therefore strengthens the logic centers of the brain

A very well said post. That last point about history is particularly interesting to me as hopefully I might be studying it next year.

#41 Posted by YoungJustice (6684 posts) - - Show Bio

Bumping.

Following Lvenger.

Because I agree with this statement so much.

But recently, our battle forums have gotten quite ugly. In part, they’ve become a festering ground for annoying trolls, ignorant and angry fanboys as well as spite threads and really stupid battles.
#42 Posted by Lvenger (18466 posts) - - Show Bio

@YoungJustice said:

Bumping.

Following Lvenger.

Because I agree with this statement so much.

But recently, our battle forums have gotten quite ugly. In part, they’ve become a festering ground for annoying trolls, ignorant and angry fanboys as well as spite threads and really stupid battles.

True but since I've made this blog (Not that I'm saying I had anything to do with this) they've gotten better. More Challenge A Viner battles, a tournament organised by nickthedevil and CitizenBane has returned! So things are slowly getting better. The wound caused in the battle forums just needs time to scab over if you'll pardon my metaphor.