@consolemaster001: well originally it served to thank the straight people here who support the LGBT community lol but since other discussions also started - we started discussing :D isn't that what threads are abt :D
@Betatesthighlander1: lol @ some of the outfits in the picture
ok actually like i said Gay Pride Parade is a party now - so people dress up and party and are being themselves wearing what they want - IT IS ONLY 1 DAY of the year :) and plz you can't compare straight PDA with ours - you get weird looks when you go real deep with toungs and touching all over - we get weird looks, insults, disgusted and angry looks just for holding hands or a simple kiss - that's if you don't get beaten by some guys who just wanna beat some fags up for fun ^^
The thing is, it's not a party, it's a parade. if it was a gay pride block party, or a gay pride convention, or a gay pride festival, that would be different. but it represents itself as a parade. it goes from place to place showing itself to theirs, making it so that someone would have to try not to see the parade, and a lot of people don't know any openly gay people, and just learn about how gay people act from how they advertise themselves.
@Blood1991 said:
@Betatesthighlander1 said:
@MidApollo:
I completely approve of the actual protesting, and I have great respect for Harvey Milk.
I feel like people in general get some odd looks for public displays of affection,
I know gay people are diverse, an i know that
are you saying you don't promote that image? you certainly do at gay pride
again, i have nothing against the against community, just gay pride
I hate to butt in and I see your point, but this is about the LGBT community and their culture. Yeah it is different, because they are different. We see the same sh!t when we see cosplayers at conventions and alot of people think it is ridiculous and cast negative judgement on geek culture. Just, because something is different or in our minds strange doesn't make it bad. If these guys and gals want to celebrate their culture as a group of people who are we to judge?
Well, isn't that something people should try to get past? I mean, any two people vary in sexuality and taste in some way or another, so I don't think its really fair to say all gay people are more "different" than straight people than any two straight people are from each other.
also, geeks in general are accepted by society, there aren't organized groups saying we don't deserve to live or be who we are, we're not in danger of attracting any serious hatred.
@Betatesthighlander1: oh but it is a festival but since it has always been in a form of parade it has stayed a parade - and again if the person seeing the parade with all kinds of people, (people who are almost naked lol, Drag Queens, people who are very seriously groomed, people who are casually dressed) generalizes the community to weird freaks than well than they are pretty much idiots (i am sorry if this sounds insulting, but it's true) and i think almost everyone knows that Gay Pride Parade in this day and age is about having fun and being free of all judgment for one day.. and homophobes will be homophobes - gay pride or not.
When it comes to us not being accepted by the society - well that's not really our fault is it? And gay pride is actually kind of the response to the hate - like hey you can hate on us but fuck you, we still are what we are and we have fun no matter what you do. and i repear again - people who hate are gonna hate always, they don't need a reason to hate gays - all they need to know is that you are a man and you sleep with another man or you love another man or you are a woman and you love/sleep with another woman... Though i must say i think lesbians are much less hated coz some hypocrite actually love lesbians and think its hot and love watching lesbian porn all day all night - but the next day scream Fags Burn in Hell ^_^
@Betatesthighlander1: For me it is less about someone trying to be what we would consider normal and more us accepting that for some people that is normal. Being different shouldn't have to be something that people get past. It should be something that people try to accept and understand, but that is coming from my own life philosophy. The geek thing was just trying to put in on level for anyone who has a hard time personally understanding or making sense of gay pride. Ofcourse it isn't the same, but as a comic book forum it makes it easier to relate too.
@Betatesthighlander1: For me it is less about someone trying to be what we would consider normal and more us accepting that for some people that is normal. Being different shouldn't have to be something that people get past. It should be something that people try to accept and understand, but that is coming from my own life philosophy. The geek thing was just trying to put in on level for anyone who has a hard time personally understanding or making sense of gay pride. Ofcourse it isn't the same, but as a comic book forum it makes it easier to relate too.
I think a lot of people would stop at the whole “man in his underwear dancing” part. That seems to be the most controversial. It’s what makes the evening news. It’s the stereotype most people have in their minds about Pride.
Sadly, most Christians want to run from such a sight rather than engage it. Most Christian won’t even learn if that person dancing in his underwear has a name. Well, he does. His name is Tristan.
So there you have a part from the link i just told you to read from which pretty much compliments to what our dear @Blood1991 is also trying to say imo.
And yes it's not about being the same - because no culture is the same noone is the same as the other - it would be rather boring if that were the case - It is about ACCEPTING THE DIFFERENCES... it demands a lot of open mindedness but that is what it is about!! :) We are all the same because we are humans and living beings - but we all have our differences through our race, sex, religions, preferances, sexual orientation, love etc etc it's time to accept the differences in people and not judge books by the covers (wow i almost sound like a philosopher lol)
@MidApollo: Pretty much what I was going for. At some level we can all relate to one another, but each of us are different and identify ourselves in different ways. Sometimes their are groups that try to make the community feel ashamed for those differences and I think the parades are one big F__k you to the people who refuse to accept their lifestyle choices when under no law are they doing anything wrong.
@MidApollo: Pretty much what I was going for. At some level we can all relate to one another, but each of us are different and identify ourselves in different ways. Sometimes their are groups that try to make the community feel ashamed for those differences and I think the parades are one big F__k you to the people who refuse to accept their lifestyle choices when under no law are they doing anything wrong.
EXACTLY - very nice way of thinking dude! I appreciate your ideas in this thread - and thank you for sharing them - cause you didn't say one thing i didn't agree with ^_^
@TimeLordScience: yeah i wouldn't really say it's rubbish - it's entertaining me and i like the stories overall - and they also have a gay character there - Bunker - he is interesting i may say - but it's not like i am reading just for him though xD
I feel like the whole Gay Pride Parades thing would be perfectly fine if it were just for fun. I've been to plenty of parades that featured women dancing around in their underwear, so it makes sense that gay parades would have men doing the same, but it's no way to make a political point. When taken as a protest, it just seems like the main message is "ALL OF US GAY PEOPLE ARE FREAKY AND UP IN YOUR FACE ABOUT IT AND YOU BETTER ACCEPT IT". If your main problem is that your opposition is disgusted by your sexual habits, the correct response is not to get up in their faces and try to freak them out even more.
A lot less people would associate the entire gay community with this one event if some members weren't attempting to make a statement that would define the rest by their own "weird" actions.
And before I get labeled as a homophobe, you may want to note that although I may not be gay, I'm definitely not straight either.
I'm curious to know what is your problem with my responses? Is my religion and beliefs such a cheap shot to you that you have to get mad every-time I type something?
You don't see me slam other religions. The most I'll say is opinions on Sharia Law and how editing the Bible was the biggest f**k up in Catholic history next to making the Borgias and Medici figures of the church.
@witchbladeishotterthanpowergrl: well it's not IN YOUR FACE YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT ME - it's fuck you even though you may hate us we are still free and we love and we can have fun and be ourselves :p and like i said people disgusted by our 'sexual habits' won't change their opinions based on a less "freak" pride parade - and if u have been to plenty i guess it means that you liked them :p and i also said before it's not like a political thing now it's more of a celebration with maybe some political messages by different organizations and people. and if you are not straight and not gay than you are Bi right?
@Necrotic_Lycanthrope: guys guys - let's not have a war please - its a very peaceful thread ^^ at least i think it is lol
I think the uprising from the Right Wing Conservatives when eventually Same Sex Marriage gets passes across America will be Epic... though it might be a while before we see this come to pass in the Bible Belt.
I think the uprising from the Right Wing Conservatives when eventually Same Sex Marriage gets passes across America will be Epic... though it might be a while before we see this come to pass in the Bible Belt.
I don't know about epic - i see a lot of gay bashing happening if that happens because of anger... but yeah like you said it has to pass in the Bible Belt yet haha
I think the uprising from the Right Wing Conservatives when eventually Same Sex Marriage gets passes across America will be Epic... though it might be a while before we see this come to pass in the Bible Belt.
It would be very epic, like if Fandango beat Stone Cold Steve Austin at a Wrestlemania in Texas heh heh.
You know some studies and research have concluded that in a lot of states and places that make up the Bible Belt actually have the highest viewing of online gay porn than anywhere else in America. A lot of self conflict going on it seems. During the day, project anger on gay people, but at night... then again always the best way to take the focus of ones self is to throw it on to other people. Maybe when it actually passes you might get a lot more people happy on the inside as well as outside.
I think the uprising from the Right Wing Conservatives when eventually Same Sex Marriage gets passes across America will be Epic... though it might be a while before we see this come to pass in the Bible Belt.
It would be very epic, like if Fandango beat Stone Cold Steve A
ustin at a Wrestlemania in Texas heh heh.
You know some studies and research have concluded that in a lot of states and places that make up the Bible Belt actually have the highest viewing of online gay porn than anywhere else in America. A lot of self conflict going on it seems. During the day, project anger on gay people, but at night... then again always the best way to take the focus of ones self is to throw it on to other people. Maybe when it actually passes you might get a lot more people happy on the inside as well as outside.
haha - homophobic closet cases - do not surprise me anymore :D No offense republicans though :x but THIS : QUEEN MARCUS
I'm not sure whether this thread thanks me or calls me uncivilized and blind. I suppose you can take your pick. I'm a devout Christian, and I believe the Bible condemns the homosexual lifestyle (note, of course, that there are plenty of other lifestyles it condemns, and in no case does the Bible consider a sin irredeemable or damning; only rejection of Christ to the point of death is ultimately the thing that "sends people to Hell"). It pains me to hold such a view, but the route to changing it isn't telling me the Bible is hogwash, it's to show me how the text I consider infallible can be interpreted faithfully in a way which doesn't actually condemn.
Meanwhile, I'm sickened by the way the church tends to behave about it. Any sign that says "God hates..." is ridiculous, seeing as scripture says God is love. And all the burn in hell language is really disgustingly sensational, though I touched upon that earlier. As for marriage, I posted a link in the gay marriage 2.0 thread to the blog I wrote last year; no, I don't think Christian churches should perform them (refer back to my first paragraph on that), but Christianity doesn't have exclusive privilege in this country (nor should it), and marriages tend to be fairly legal/economic than religious these days anyway. It bothers me a bit that both battles seem to always be fought in the same place, though: the question of how Bible-believing Christians view homosexuality (and ceremonies/ordinations dealing therewith) is very different from the question of how, say, Americans should socially and legally address it. I can (and do) support gay marriage while still believing that homosexuality is wrong.
So, yeah, I'm not here to debate that. I believe what I do because I subscribe to an authority beyond myself which says something on the subject. If that makes me blind, so be it; if there's a place for trying to undermine everything I've based my life on, this thread certainly is not it. But insomuch as I don't "hate" or "fear" people who are gay, and insomuch as I am equally disgusted by the abuses they frequently receive, I hope I'm not completely loathed. If so, oh well. I don't believe in hating people for what they believe. Hopefully no one else here does either.
As to the question of the moment, Pride parades, well...on that, I'm a little less lenient.
Here's the problem. Ten minutes of conversation with an openly homosexual person will create more empathy than ten years worth of pride parades. In fact, often the first step in that conversation is to undo the harm that parades cause.
Nothing belies "I'm just like you and deserve to be respected and treated the same" quite like behaving like depraved lunatics in an organized event. Which, frankly, is what happens pretty often in the publicized parades. As it turns out, I disrespect a lot of the folks in pride parades, not because they are gay, but because they're half-naked and making idiots of themselves in public. And I would feel precisely the same way about heterosexuals displaying themselves like that. Actually, I do feel the same way -- I'll never appreciate what Mardi Gras devolves into. I can respect a lot of things, but blatant unabashed debauchery is not one of them. Call me old-fashioned (let me guess, you'd say antediluvian) but I believe in public decency, and Pride parades tend to chuck that out the window.
And to be clear, it's not just Pride parades that are guilty. Nor, for the record, am I saying over-the-top public displays of affection are any less acceptable from gays than they are from straights. I get uncomfortable seeing anyone swallowing tongues out in the street.
What, really, is the aim of parades? I understand that embracing differences is part of taking pride in who you are, but which aspect of the group identity is being pushed? Is it the commitment, the love, the respectability and responsibility, which all fly in the face of stereotypes that paint homosexuals as sex-craved incompetents? Because that's not what I get from it at all.
Taking pride in the "wild side" really seems antithetical, to me, to convincing detractors to take you seriously about anything at all. If it's about getting equal rights, about how your lifestyle deserves legal protection rather than to be treated like it's a detriment to societal development, then why not have your "pride" focus on things less controversial (which, again, aren't even directly related to orientation)? As has been said, it's one thing to have a party or celebration. But if you hope to achieve any political progress or change any minds, I think homosexuals as a whole should be a little wary of the messages that those who "march" on their behalf are transmitting. I wouldn't want anything important to me conveyed the way Pride parades tend to be. And I don't think that's just because I'm straight.
@mrdecepticonleader: I believe Biblical references, either directly to homosexuality, or more broadly to what English translations simply lump together as "sexual immorality" (which would have been understood to include homosexuality at the time) are wholly condemnatory in nature. I have sought, and continue to seek, coherent and non-contradictory explanations of scripture which prove my current interpretation wrong; as of now, no one has provided one. Typically I am simply told not to take scripture literally, or that it's outdated; but neither of those is an actual honest attempt. Still, when a Bible believer tells me that he or she has found scriptural acceptance of homosexuality, I am always willing to take the time and listen and look into it. I'm ever afraid that my stance will come out looking fifty years from now like the racist's stance in the 60s, who looked at the same Bible I did and came to the wrong conclusion.
"The Bible says so" tends to be sufficient for me. That may come across as simplistic, though again it's not just "oh, there's a verse that says it;" it's "oh, there are verses here and here, and this is the historical context of this passage, and this is what this means, and these are scholars who have discussed these different angles." When I've come to believe that the Bible has a clear stance on something, I tend not to need another reason for believing it. The evolutionary question, of how a sexuality which precludes procreation fits into the preservation of the species, is about the furthest I've ever gone in a more scientific route, but that's merely the phantom of an inquiry, and has no real impact on my belief.
hi there, while i can't say anything to change ur view on homosexuality - i am glad you're not totally blinded by hatred. (i guess you are one of those love the sinner hate the sin kind of guys
Now you said "Here's the problem. Ten minutes of conversation with an openly homosexual person will create more empathy than ten years worth of pride parades. In fact, often the first step in that conversation is to undo the harm that parades cause." - I dont agree what the first step is undo the harm of the hateful people and the harm that Homosexuality is an illness has caused that people compare us with PEDOPHILES ^^ and as i have said before and as i will say again - Pride is not really about Political Message anymore - it's a celebration of being who you are, mixed with having fun and some political messages that always accompany us and if we protest against anything you won't see naked people - i have posted a picture of Prop. 8 protesters - as you could see - no naked people or weird outfits-
When i say bashed for being gay - i dont mean over the top PDA - i mean just holding hands or giving a litle kiss - let's be honest most of the time the very much tongue swallowing straight don't even get any remarks.
Parade embraces LOVE, SEXUALITY, RESPECT, FREEDOM - yes it represents sexuality too after all it is called homoSEXUAL- it's like i said the 1 day we get to go to the streets, kiss freely, hold hands, march, have fun openly and be who we are - let's not forget it is straight parade everyday ^^ and like i said its not a all serious dressed parade that is gonna change yours or any other person's opinion about gay people - while you don't hate - the haters will hate - parade is just one of the excuses - if its not the parade its just the fact that gay men love men and lesbians love women.
and just in case - i hope you don't think that anyone CHOOSES to be gay - coz that i can assure you as a gay person myself is NOT TRUE - noone chooses to be gay and we can't choose to turn straight or just prayed to becoming straight - though i might say if i had a chance right now to become straight i wouldn't coz as much as being gay is not all that i am, it makes me into what i am - and what i am is i believe a very much tolerant and understanding people who are prejudiced against because i understand how it feels and many other qualities. and I am very proud of my sexuality myself.
But thanks for being against the "Turn or Burn" Christians and i would advise you to read the little article i put on page 3 of this thread ^_^ it might help you understand better both gays, parade and some religious views ^^
@mrdecepticonleader: I believe Biblical references, either directly to homosexuality, or more broadly to what English translations simply lump together as "sexual immorality" (which would have been understood to include homosexuality at the time) are wholly condemnatory in nature. I have sought, and continue to seek, coherent and non-contradictory explanations of scripture which prove my current interpretation wrong; as of now, no one has provided one. Typically I am simply told not to take scripture literally, or that it's outdated; but neither of those is an actual honest attempt. Still, when a Bible believer tells me that he or she has found scriptural acceptance of homosexuality, I am always willing to take the time and listen and look into it. I'm ever afraid that my stance will come out looking fifty years from now like the racist's stance in the 60s, who looked at the same Bible I did and came to the wrong conclusion.
"The Bible says so" tends to be sufficient for me. That may come across as simplistic, though again it's not just "oh, there's a verse that says it;" it's "oh, there are verses here and here, and this is the historical context of this passage, and this is what this means, and these are scholars who have discussed these different angles." When I've come to believe that the Bible has a clear stance on something, I tend not to need another reason for believing it. The evolutionary question, of how a sexuality which precludes procreation fits into the preservation of the species, is about the furthest I've ever gone in a more scientific route, but that's merely the phantom of an inquiry, and has no real impact on my belief.
I see.
Have you ever considered the bible might have got it wrong?
Clearly there is a lot on peoples' minds. How deeply should we delve into these matters on this forum and in this thread? Firstly, please, watch the language; although I'm nor offended by adult language and themes, the internet nazi moderators are apt to read things differently and will not hesitate to shut down another thread and threaten well-meaning posters for using 'naughty words'. As for Pride parades, they're just having fun. The attitude of immorality or debauchery are sociological prejudices; why are some people so concerned about what others do? Who cares whether they're fully dressed? It's just a human body, get over it. Geeze. And this talk over the bible supposedly being infallible; I'm dismayed that some people still have faith in that superstition; what does it mean, really, to say that a book is 'infallible'? That the human writers were infallible? In general, or just when they wrote the scripture? My understanding is that even Jesus displayed very human limitations, but biblical writers were infallible? Do we really want to debate this here? Or the Nature of Deity, or the nature of Christianity? Or even the Pride parades, in this thread?
There are some open-minded and less judgmental 'straight but not narrow' folks, and we thank you for your acceptance; not of me (I'm really inconsequential) but, rather, your love and acceptance of your children, other parents' children, your gay brothers and sisters, the youth presently coming out and dealing with their sexuality... ultimately, we (and I) notice and appreciate your embracing one another's differences without judgment. Now, let's all lead by example.
@MidApollo: yeah, that was tge purpose of this thread. but now people are talking about how awesome being gay is.Though i don't hate gays/lesbians etc. it can't be said be said that i support gay marriage either. I also hate how people view acceptance of gay marriage as a requierment to be "civilised"
Heheh. "Love the sinner, hate the sin." It's become almost trite, and a lot of people reject it. I always appreciated its simplicity though usually I refrain from the actual phrase, but yes, that's the core of it. Jesus made no bones about telling people they were sinners. When they went to stone the woman, it wasn't like he said "she's innocent." He said everyone's sinned, and judging someone for their sin is ridiculous as it presumes a righteousness no one could possibly possess. Note that he never excused the sin or called it okay. But he protected and comforted her in spite of the sin, asked her to try to live a better life. Oh, and then he died for her, knowing on her own she'd never completely overcome her sinful nature.
You make a very good point when you say "The first step is undo the harm of hateful people." I suppose it's a two-way street. Both sides of the discussion have had harmful images of their lifestyle magnified in the media. You may not condemn Pride parades as roundly as I'll happily condemn Westboro Baptist Church, but I think in either case you have a vocal, extreme element making a name for the group which may not fairly represent all, or even most of the people who go by that creed.
As for PDA, I obviously can't speak for everyone. But I tend not to feel very voyeuristic when walking down the street (and I'm sure if I had young children that'd count double). There's a reason "get a room" is an expression, and I'm apt to think it (though I'd rarely actually say it) just as frequently with straight couples as gay. Sure, some people are bigoted there and would say it to a gay couple because the gayness is what's actually bothering them. But I'd like to think that's not me.
I'll leave the matter of choice off to the side, because I recognize that some of what I believe in that regard still needs to be worked out, compared with scripture, compared with genetics, compared with personal stories, etc. and I'm likely to say something that's either offensive, indefensible, or both. I've come to grips with, at the very least, the notion of predisposition as an unavoidable fact. The specific implications of balancing Christianity with being born homosexual are extremely sensitive, and probably not worth discussing until the more important parts -- like believing in God and the Bible -- have already been taken for granted. If you don't believe those things, it matters little what else might be said on this (or many other) subjects.
The most concise (albeit, of course, simplistic) way of putting it is that while being born with homosexual tendencies may indeed not be a choice, actively pursuing, living out, embracing, and celebrating those tendencies is. The argumentative person will respond to that by saying "so what, then, should I be ashamed of myself for the way God made me?" and that's the point in the discussion where I don't trust myself to tread carefully enough to justify stepping further onto the ice. I've hurt people in the past by simply misplacing my words, and I'd prefer not to repeat the mistake, especially in such an affirming and reasonable context as this thread.
By all means, I'll take some time tomorrow and read the article.
In general, I am relieved by the gracious way in which you replied. I absolutely loathe having to broach this subject because while the basis for what I believe is seemingly pretty black and white (though like I said, I keep hoping to find it gray), the implications thereof are anything but. There are plenty of things people do which I also think are wrong because the Bible calls them such, but this tends to be the line I'm not supposed to cross. I wish we were all in person, so after all is said, we could just hug one another and appreciate the fact that sometimes people who completely disagree with you still want to be friends.
@mrdecepticonleader: Yes, I've definitely considered it. I learned a long time ago, moving in intellectual circles, that it's foolhardy to blindly cling to any belief. The nature of faith is that it does accept some things at their word without accepting empirical evidence, but I'm intellectually allergic to the "god of the gaps" idea; claiming one believes in the Bible should never be an excuse to ignore blatant facts. I've been a Christian of my own choosing, and of my own conviction, for long enough that I can safely say I honestly do believe the Bible is more than, as one poster nonchalantly (and regrettably less than respectfully) dismissed it, "superstition." But as I noted in my original response, "if there's a place for trying to undermine everything I've based my life on, this thread certainly is not it." If nothing else it may please you to know that I am always engaged in at least a few very intense, respectful, but skeptical discussions about why I believe what I do and why others do not. Rest assured I do not take anything about my worldview for granted, particularly as it tends to create so much friction between me and people I would otherwise get along with quite smoothly.
Well I would guess that you would view the bible as something more than just superstition,since you are a christian.
Didn't you say in your previous post something along the lines of not letting your religion blatantly ignore certain facts? Well what about the evidence that homosexuality is as natural as heterosexuality? And all the other things we have come to discover that contradicts and differs from how things are in the bible?
I am not trying to change your mind with the above questions (no point because I never try to that) I am just asking
@mrdecepticonleader: Well, like I said, I don't feel this is a good time or place to delve into that matter, and actually addressing most of what you just asked would require doing so, so I shall respectfully decline to comment. Again, if it's any consolation, I am being asked questions like that in other contexts (and have been for years), and I do continue to either provide answers or seek for more satisfying ones. As for this thread, the subject was more to do with thanking non-close-minded straights (and secondarily became about gay pride parades), and I stated what I did mostly to clarify that I try to be as open-minded as my worldview allows me to be, and hope to be seen as such, though I will understand those who see me otherwise. Too far beyond that is a bit more tangential than I feel comfortable traveling for now.
@mrdecepticonleader: Well, like I said, I don't feel this is a good time or place to delve into that matter, and actually addressing most of what you just asked would require doing so, so I shall respectfully decline to comment. Again, if it's any consolation, I am being asked questions like that in other contexts (and have been for years), and I do continue to either provide answers or seek for more satisfying ones. As for this thread, the subject was more to do with thanking non-close-minded straights (and secondarily became about gay pride parades), and I stated what I did mostly to clarify that I try to be as open-minded as my worldview allows me to be, and hope to be seen as such, though I will understand those who see me otherwise. Too far beyond that is a bit more tangential than I feel comfortable traveling for now.
Okay fair enough.
Sorry if I made you feel uncomfortable or wasted your time.It certainly wasn't my intention.
@mrdecepticonleader: No worries ^_^ I don't expect to come into a thread made by a gay person, say what I've said, and waltz off feeling sunshine and roses. I think it'd be wrong for me to feel completely comfortable with that. I've been deeply impressed by the respectful tone used by you and others here and if I seem forthright in my reticence on the Bible matters, it's certainly not because I'm feeling harassed.
@mrdecepticonleader: No worries ^_^ I don't expect to come into a thread made by a gay person, say what I've said, and waltz off feeling sunshine and roses. I think it'd be wrong for me to feel completely comfortable with that. I've been deeply impressed by the respectful tone used by you and others here and if I seem forthright in my reticence on the Bible matters, it's certainly not because I'm feeling harassed.
@akbogert: Thank you for responding now - first please don't compare WBC with Gay Pride Parade - not everyone hates Gay pride parade, Gay pride parade is about love and being free and expresssing urself and never harms anyone psychologically or physically - actually it is considered as one of the most peaceful events, protests, meetings in the streets :) WBC are hated by everyone, they hate everyone and their message from god is HATE - they harm the society.
Next - you say acting out on being gay - now being gay is not some fetish that you have, you are just like a straight person, who wants to have sex, who falls in love, who wants to be loved... So basically you mean we must never have sex, and never fall in love even if we do we must repress our feelings - you know that is 1 way ticket to depression and suicide right? Imagine if someone told you that! We are not monks or something.
And i don't think holding hands is PDA - even just by holding hands we get bashed that is what i meant ^^
Anywyas lol thank you for being nice, plz don't forget the article ^_^
@MidApollo: Indeed, I apologize if my reference to WBC came across as a direct comparison. I agree, it really is a loathsome entity and can produce no good. My point is simply that absolutely nothing about the WBC actually benefits the image of Christians to non-Christians; and as a Christian, I'm just saying nothing about pride parades benefits the image of homosexuality to me. I see both as the least positive expression of a core belief; to the extent that the parades are not harmful, that simply proves that even at its "worst" homosexuality doesn't hurt people. But I don't even really want to say that, because like I hope I've established, much of what I take issue with in the parades would be just as problematic to me if all participants were straight. So even then, the comparison still has some use, because the worst things about WBC aren't actually to do with real Christianity at all, and the worst things about the parades aren't exclusive to homosexuals. I don't know. Again, I don't mean to say they're really in any way similar beyond the specific similarities I've mentioned; if the analogy is so poor that it strikes as offensive, then by all means skip it.
As for the second point, like I said, while I believe there's a way to answer you that won't sound horrible, I don't trust myself to say it properly, so I'll refrain. I will defer to my prior point that without having established a belief and commitment to Christ, anything else on the subject is quite irrelevant.
As for the PDA thing, I think my earlier remarks were directed more towards others in the thread who have discussed it. There's nothing horrible about holding hands and so yeah, like I said, people who flip out about that are quite clearly bigots.
As for the story, it's pleasant, though of course there are parts that raise my brow. As I've said a couple times, I don't see Biblical acceptance of homosexuality. Obviously people use the word differently. I don't see license to tell people they're horrible or going to burn in hell or that you hate them, either. But Jesus, as I mentioned in my earlier reference to the woman brought to him for stoning, would never have been vague as to whether a sin was a sin. There's the phrase in there, a couple times, about whether Jesus would have hugged Tristan. And I think it's worth noting that while Jesus would not have had a problem with the premise of hugging or embracing Tristan, he would have been saddened by Tristan's participation in that parade. Keep in mind that Christ died for us while we were still sinners. The fact that all of us have plenty of things in our lives which grieve God is hardly a thing which makes him hate us or disown us. The entire message of the gospel is reconciliation -- but an important aspect of that is repentance and allegiance to the Creator. Jesus hugs the sinner, and then says "go and sin no more." A person who walks away from there and proceeds to enthusiastically sin probably didn't care about Jesus' opinion in the first place, though they may be grateful for not having been stoned.
I do my best to emulate that example. I don't want to see homosexuals "stoned" -- physically or emotionally --and I hope never to be caught with a rock in my hand. But that's not the same as accepting or approving homosexuality. And as always, that attitude goes for a multitude of lifestyles and behaviors; I'm sticking to homosexuality here only because it's the topic at hand. I accept that not everyone will come to see things the way I or many Christians do. Sure, I'll always wish it were different, but in the meantime I have no qualms with being seen talking with, embracing, and truly loving other people, no matter how divergent our beliefs. The difference between me and that horrible pastor is that he would legitimately derive pleasure from seeing homosexuals suffer and die, like Jonah wanted to watch God pour out wrath on Nineveh. My "campaign" (though it's nothing quite so overt) is driven by precisely the opposite compulsion: a desire to see true reconciliation and peace between sinners of all kinds and their God.
@akbogert: Now well see - I live in Paris but i come from the country that was the first country that accepted Christianity as an official religion, and when they ask me what is my religion even now that i consider to be agnostic going more towards atheism i am used to say Armenian Apostolic Church Christian.
If god exists I do not in any way think that Bible was written by him or Jesus - the bible was written by MEN about 2000 years ago, so in my opinion even the Christians should know that taking everything written in the Bible literally and saying that it is still relevant is nonesense. The society has CHANGE A LOT since than.. I believe the bible was like a constitution back than - to control people and to establish rules - now we have evolved and the rules have changed too - while there are some very good messages in the Bible - there are also some things that NOONE can or will follow - because we don't live like people used to live 2000 years ago.
And I firmly believe that if Jesus existed he would hug any "underdog" - that was what he was about truely - accepting those who weren't accepted. YOU or ANYONE can not know what Jesus would think or do if he were here now - maybe he would say this Bible we have is not the word of god at all. So when you or anyone sais Jesus would say this or would do this - doesn't make sense - from what i know of Jesus - he was kind, compassionate, and loved everyone - I am pretty sure in this modern society he would organize gay weddings himself!
If being gay is a sin - than god made me a sinner on purpose, why would he do that? Does god love to make sinners on purpose to later send them to hell? now you are gonna say he is tempting you or he is/was testing you? why would he test me from the age of 7 with that and not you ? - coz i can assure you i knew i was gay even at the age of 7 - i knew that i liked a boy in my first year of school I wasn't even mature enough to understand but i knew i liked a boy-
Religion is the reason i am more and more going to Atheism - see i believe a god that doesn't love me since obviously he made me a sinner - can't be my god.
So now my faith is LOVE - i believe in love and compassion - those are the values I believe in - I don't need any negativity in my life -
If Hell exists and i am to go to hell just cause I love a MAN instead of a WOMAN than be it - coz love is worth it, and I am not gonna apologize to God for it - let those who hate apologize not those who love!!
@MidApollo: Well not to appear dismissive, but the majority of what you just said simply points me back to the point that I do believe the Bible is God-inspired and (translational quibbles aside) flawless, as well as entirely relevant (though not every part is relevant for the same reasons, and some stuff truly is just a history lesson, not rules to live by). You are welcome to believe otherwise but it is what I believe, and every point I make here or elsewhere is consistent therewith. As I mentioned earlier, I'm not going to try to argue over that here; I'm simply establishing my position and the basis for it. One thing worth noting is that all of us are sinners. When I say homosexuality is a sin, I don't mean to set it apart as uniquely heinous. I don't mean to say your sin is "more damning" than any of my sin. Christ died in spite of our sin, as an act of forgiveness, as an act of love. So to say "I believe that god doesn't love me since obviously he made me a sinner" doesn't make much sense to me in light of the actual message of the gospel.
Our views of the nature and authority of scripture are simply radically different, and so our beliefs about the implications are, naturally, also radically different. Everything you say makes complete sense when considered from the framework from which you are saying it. We act like we're disputing conclusions, but we're actually disputing premises, which isn't going to be terribly helpful to either of us ^_^
Again, I entirely respect and understand what you're saying. I hope I don't convey anything other than that.
@akbogert: yeahhh we could argue on this forever - even though i don't think that love can ever be a sin - since homosexuality is not just about sex - and i wonder how can love be a sin? anyways to end this discussion on a high note - I respect your opinion - thank you for sharing it in a non hateful manner and without mentioning Homosexual and abomination in the same phrase like people love to do..
And it's good to know Christians hate WBC as much as anyone haha :D
@MidApollo: Heheh. As I've said to people before, "I don't think there's any room for hate in true Christianity. But if I've ever hated anyone, it's the WBC." Every time they do something, I always feel like I have to go out of my way to make clear that they don't speak for real Christians. If there were an event nearby that they were protesting, I would happily join the anti-protesters.
And thank you, for being open, for being honest, and for not dismissing me the way many people, I'm afraid, have likely dismissed you.
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