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#1 Posted by TheSpiritStalker (2102 posts) - - Show Bio
#2 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11267 posts) - - Show Bio

Neither do I. Some people believe the planet has been around for a few thousand years. Others believe it to be around 14 billion years. We're all different and that's not a bad thing. Some of my friends believe in H/H, doesn't bother me. As long as they're not throwing it in my face, if so, then am throwing my fist in theirs. :D

#3 Posted by ComicMan24 (147108 posts) - - Show Bio

@Supreme Marvel said:

Neither do I. Some people believe the planet has been around for a few thousand years. Others believe it to be around 14 billion years. We're all different and that's not a bad thing. Some of my friends believe in H/H, doesn't bother me. As long as they're not throwing it in my face, if so, then am throwing my fist in theirs. :D

I agree with this.

#4 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio

It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 

#5 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11267 posts) - - Show Bio

@cyberninja said:

It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along.

I lolled. I honestly thought you were saying that because of you know who. :P

#6 Posted by utotheg38 (18883 posts) - - Show Bio

.........who?

#7 Edited by King Saturn (224507 posts) - - Show Bio
@Supreme Marvel said:

Neither do I. Some people believe the planet has been around for a few thousand years. Others believe it to be around 14 billion years. We're all different and that's not a bad thing. Some of my friends believe in H/H, doesn't bother me. As long as they're not throwing it in my face, if so, then am throwing my fist in theirs. :D

I think you mean "Others believe the Planet to be around 4 Billion Years Old". The Universe is about 14 Billion Years Old ( approximately 13.5 Billion Years Old ) just being a nit picking egghead since I am sort of bored... lol 
#8 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
Well, that idea has a sort of inherant problem. Many people (myself included) draw their worldview from a particular religion. Many religions (Christianity being the most notable, in this case) command that their followers not only follow the religion themselves, but also attempt to be bringing other people into that religion. 
Let me put it this way. Say a friend of yours is a Christian, believes in God, goes to church, etc. One of the fundamental principles of Christianity is being bold about one's faith and "making disciples of all nations." If your friend claims to be a Christian but never tries to get you to start going to church with him, he probably doesn't fully believe in Christianity himself. 
Therefore, going off of what you said, the only religious people you don't have a problem with are the ones who don't follow the commands of their own religion. 
#9 Posted by King Saturn (224507 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
Well, that idea has a sort of inherant problem. Many people (myself included) draw their worldview from a particular religion. Many religions (Christianity being the most notable, in this case) command that their followers not only follow the religion themselves, but also attempt to be bringing other people into that religion. Let me put it this way. Say a friend of yours is a Christian, believes in God, goes to church, etc. One of the fundamental principles of Christianity is being bold about one's faith and "making disciples of all nations." If your friend claims to be a Christian but never tries to get you to start going to church with him, he probably doesn't fully believe in Christianity himself. Therefore, going off of what you said, the only religious people you don't have a problem with are the ones who don't follow the commands of their own religion. 
this is a strong truth
#10 Posted by Matrix (143 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't believe in heaven, hell or God but i'm a firm believer in faith, and every human has a right to have faith in at least one thing.

#11 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
Well, that idea has a sort of inherant problem. Many people (myself included) draw their worldview from a particular religion. Many religions (Christianity being the most notable, in this case) command that their followers not only follow the religion themselves, but also attempt to be bringing other people into that religion. Let me put it this way. Say a friend of yours is a Christian, believes in God, goes to church, etc. One of the fundamental principles of Christianity is being bold about one's faith and "making disciples of all nations." If your friend claims to be a Christian but never tries to get you to start going to church with him, he probably doesn't fully believe in Christianity himself. Therefore, going off of what you said, the only religious people you don't have a problem with are the ones who don't follow the commands of their own religion. 
That is the reason why there are so many Christian missionaries around the world, though you might think spreading the words of Jesus is every Christians duty, it only raises questions like is there really a thin line between preaching and shoving your beliefs down other people's throats? And what would be repercussions of poking your nose into other peoples business? Or is it just better to just do what we want then take the easy way out and say "they hate us because of our freedom"? The answers might vary from person to person depending on their beliefs ( or lack thereof) but one thing is for sure, as far as beliefs go, the world would be a lot better if everyone mind their own business. 
#12 Posted by The Stegman (25170 posts) - - Show Bio

i'm a Deist, i believe there is a God (and most likely an afterlife) but He (God) doesn't interfere with the human world at all

#13 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio
@cyberninja:  

 it only raises questions like is there really a thin line between preaching and shoving your beliefs down other people's throats?  


 
That thin line you're talking about is love and humility. Admittedly, it's a concept a great many Christians have trouble grasping. 
When I share my faith with somebody else, I make sure I'm doing it because I legitimately care for them and want them to be able to share in the love I have with Jesus Christ, and I try not to do it in a way that says, "I'm a little bit better than you because I'm a Christian. Here's what you need to do to be a good person like me." 
I can't even pretend to say I'm anywhere near perfect in keeping that constant love and humility, but I try. 
 

And what would be repercussions of poking your nose into other peoples business? 


 
That is why most church leaders I have talked to advise either 1) letting the person come to you, or 2) getting to know them as a friend, before attempting to do any serious evangelism. 
Again, that's a concept that a lot of Christians have trouble fully grasping. I'm sorry about that. 
 

but one thing is for sure, as far as beliefs go, the world would be a lot better if everyone mind their own business.  


 
That's the "catch 22" I've been talking about. You're right in saying Christians like me shouldn't go around shoving Jesus into everybody's faces. But Christianity, by definition, is something that has to be shared to be real. The one core concept of Christianity is love. "God is love," 1 John 4:8, etc. And love is something that you don't really have if you're not giving it to other people. 
 
I think, at the root of things, the one main problem you have with Christianity is that the kind of Christians you're talking about (the ones who try to shove religion down everybody's throats) are not doing so out of love. Obligation, self-gratification, sense of superiority, maybe... but not love. 
I honestly wish I could have a word with all the Christians who act that way. Any message they're trying to convey is getting lost in the process of their delivery.
#14 Posted by Dracade102 (8167 posts) - - Show Bio

When you die, your body either rots and your gone forever, or your body is absorbed into the universe and you become one with the force...

#15 Posted by Supreme Marvel (11267 posts) - - Show Bio

@King Saturn said:

@Supreme Marvel said:

Neither do I. Some people believe the planet has been around for a few thousand years. Others believe it to be around 14 billion years. We're all different and that's not a bad thing. Some of my friends believe in H/H, doesn't bother me. As long as they're not throwing it in my face, if so, then am throwing my fist in theirs. :D

I think you mean "Others believe the Planet to be around 4 Billion Years Old". The Universe is about 14 Billion Years Old ( approximately 13.5 Billion Years Old ) just being a nit picking egghead since I am sort of bored... lol

Why am I not getting these messages??!?!

Yeah, I was thinking of the universe when trying to write about the planet.

#16 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:
@cyberninja:  

 it only raises questions like is there really a thin line between preaching and shoving your beliefs down other people's throats?  


 
That thin line you're talking about is love and humility. Admittedly, it's a concept a great many Christians have trouble grasping. 
When I share my faith with somebody else, I make sure I'm doing it because I legitimately care for them and want them to be able to share in the love I have with Jesus Christ, and I try not to do it in a way that says, "I'm a little bit better than you because I'm a Christian. Here's what you need to do to be a good person like me." 
I can't even pretend to say I'm anywhere near perfect in keeping that constant love and humility, but I try. 
 

The fact that almost all Christians believe that their way is the only way to heaven says otherwise. 
 
 @(((Prodigy))) said:


And what would be repercussions of poking your nose into other peoples business? 


 
That is why most church leaders I have talked to advise either 1) letting the person come to you, or 2) getting to know them as a friend, before attempting to do any serious evangelism. 
Again, that's a concept that a lot of Christians have trouble fully grasping. I'm sorry about that. 
 


 The very presence of so many Christian missionaries in so many countries IS in itself the problem. You can't walk into a stranger's house, stand in a corner of a living room and say I will only speak to a person who will come to me . 
 
 @(((Prodigy))) said:


but one thing is for sure, as far as beliefs go, the world would be a lot better if everyone mind their own business.  

 That's the "catch 22" I've been talking about. You're right in saying Christians like me shouldn't go around shoving Jesus into everybody's faces. But Christianity, by definition, is something that has to be shared to be real. The one core concept of Christianity is love. "God is love," 1 John 4:8, etc. And love is something that you don't really have if you're not giving it to other people.  I think, at the root of things, the one main problem you have with Christianity is that the kind of Christians you're talking about (the ones who try to shove religion down everybody's throats) are not doing so out of love. Obligation, self-gratification, sense of superiority, maybe... but not love. I honestly wish I could have a word with all the Christians who act that way. Any message they're trying to convey is getting lost in the process of their delivery.
I agree, no matter how much Christians might preach and show "love" all they want, but in the grand scheme of things you can't force love so to speak; It's there or it isn't. If it's not there, you've got to be able to admit it, then move on and leave them alone. Sadly "NO" isn't an answer most Christians are willing to hear, so they will continue preaching and keep doing what they do, because in their mind they are right, and everyone else is wrong. 
#17 Posted by cattlebattle (13046 posts) - - Show Bio
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
I LOL'd at this statement coinciding with your avatar....I don't know if you did it intentionally.
 
I really don't know about the origins of Heaven and Hell but is seems they are just used to scare people into not doing anything wrong...which judging by the way society is these days....it isn't working
#18 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@cattlebattle said:
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
I LOL'd at this statement coinciding with your avatar....I don't know if you did it intentionally. 
 lol yes it was :) 
 
@cattlebattle said:
I really don't know about the origins of Heaven and Hell but is seems they are just used to scare people into not doing anything wrong...which judging by the way society is these days....it isn't working

 Well said my friend. 
#19 Posted by King Saturn (224507 posts) - - Show Bio
@cattlebattle said:
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
I LOL'd at this statement coinciding with your avatar....I don't know if you did it intentionally.  I really don't know about the origins of Heaven and Hell but is seems they are just used to scare people into not doing anything wrong...which judging by the way society is these days....it isn't working
I would say Heaven seems more plausible than Hell... ultimately if a God exists it would make sense that he would reside in a Realm that could be considered Heaven. But Hell is sort of a weird concept... a place of Eternal Torment does not sound like something that would come from a Loving God. 
#20 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio
@cyberninja:  
The fact that almost all Christians believe that their way is the only way to heaven says otherwise.  
 
Not necessarily. 
The Bible states very specifically that discipleship with Jesus is the only path to Heaven ("Jesus answered 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.' John 14:6). If I believed anything different, I wouldn't be a Christian. 
However, believing that does not mean I believe I'm a better person than anybody else. ("For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23). 
That is where the humility part comes in. Humility is an absolutely crucial element of Christianity. It's just not often seen because, as humans, it is our natural tendency to not want to be completely and totally humble to another.  
 
 The very presence of so many Christian missionaries in so many countries IS in itself the problem. You can't walk into a stranger's house, stand in a corner of a living room and say I will only speak to a person who will come to me .  
 
What you just said is not the same as shoving Christianity down somebody's throat. Even if I go door-to-door evangelizing in my neighborhood, I go out expecting the vast majority of people to just say, "No" and close the door in my face. I get the door closed in my face a lot. There's nothing I can do about that. But if I'm i'm a stranger's house, standing in a corner of the living room, it's only because the person already have some level of interest in what I have to say. There's no other reason they would let me in their house to talk.  
 
I agree, no matter how much Christians might preach and show "love" all they want, but in the grand scheme of things you can't force love so to speak; It's there or it isn't. If it's not there, you've got to be able to admit it, then move on and leave them alone. Sadly "NO" isn't an answer most Christians are willing to hear, so they will continue preaching and keep doing what they do, because in their mind they are right, and everyone else is wrong.  
 
It's true that love can't be forced, but true love doesn't just stand up and walk away forever after one rejection.  That's where evangelism gets difficult. When I'm talking to someone who honestly isn't interested in hearing what I have to say, I know it's my duty and responsibility as a Christian to not just give up on them completely, but I also have to realize that trying to force the issue will only turn them off to me even more. In those cases, the best thing for a Christian to do is find the 'happy medium' between those two options: I stay in contact with the person, just as a friend. Let them see through my life what Christianity has done for me and changed me. And if they ever want to open up and listen to what I have to say, I'll already be there.
#21 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
@cattlebattle said:
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
I LOL'd at this statement coinciding with your avatar....I don't know if you did it intentionally.  I really don't know about the origins of Heaven and Hell but is seems they are just used to scare people into not doing anything wrong...which judging by the way society is these days....it isn't working
I would say Heaven seems more plausible than Hell... ultimately if a God exists it would make sense that he would reside in a Realm that could be considered Heaven. But Hell is sort of a weird concept... a place of Eternal Torment does not sound like something that would come from a Loving God. 
Good can not exist without evil, f or every positive charge, there is a negative. If heaven is plausible as you say then so is hell.....oh wait you were talking to Cattle, my bad. 
 
*walks away*
#22 Posted by Lance Uppercut (23244 posts) - - Show Bio

@King Saturn said:

@Supreme Marvel said:

Neither do I. Some people believe the planet has been around for a few thousand years. Others believe it to be around 14 billion years. We're all different and that's not a bad thing. Some of my friends believe in H/H, doesn't bother me. As long as they're not throwing it in my face, if so, then am throwing my fist in theirs. :D

I think you mean "Others believe the Planet to be around 4 Billion Years Old". The Universe is about 14 Billion Years Old ( approximately 13.5 Billion Years Old ) just being a nit picking egghead since I am sort of bored... lol

Some people believe fossils were something the jews buried in 1924.

#23 Posted by King Saturn (224507 posts) - - Show Bio
@cyberninja said:
@King Saturn said:
@cattlebattle said:
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
I LOL'd at this statement coinciding with your avatar....I don't know if you did it intentionally.  I really don't know about the origins of Heaven and Hell but is seems they are just used to scare people into not doing anything wrong...which judging by the way society is these days....it isn't working
I would say Heaven seems more plausible than Hell... ultimately if a God exists it would make sense that he would reside in a Realm that could be considered Heaven. But Hell is sort of a weird concept... a place of Eternal Torment does not sound like something that would come from a Loving God. 
Good can not exist without evil, f or every positive charge, there is a negative. If heaven is plausible as you say then so is hell.....oh wait you were talking to Cattle, my bad.  *walks away*
well that is not necessarily true... remember before Lucifer sinned... all that Existed was Good... God and The Angels in Heaven... no Evil or Sin persisted until Lucifer's turn against God. Secondly, after all is done in The End Times... it is stated in the Bible that all will be put back the way it was supposed to be by God. Hell, Death, Suffering and all that stuff will No Longer exist... meaning all that will be is God and Holy Things in the Presence of God / Jesus within the New Heavens and New Earth.  
#24 Posted by King Saturn (224507 posts) - - Show Bio
@Lance Uppercut said:

@King Saturn said:

@Supreme Marvel said:

Neither do I. Some people believe the planet has been around for a few thousand years. Others believe it to be around 14 billion years. We're all different and that's not a bad thing. Some of my friends believe in H/H, doesn't bother me. As long as they're not throwing it in my face, if so, then am throwing my fist in theirs. :D

I think you mean "Others believe the Planet to be around 4 Billion Years Old". The Universe is about 14 Billion Years Old ( approximately 13.5 Billion Years Old ) just being a nit picking egghead since I am sort of bored... lol

Some people believe fossils were something the jews buried in 1924.

dang, that's an interesting detail. 
#25 Posted by Dernman (15266 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
@cyberninja said:
@King Saturn said:
@cattlebattle said:
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
I LOL'd at this statement coinciding with your avatar....I don't know if you did it intentionally.  I really don't know about the origins of Heaven and Hell but is seems they are just used to scare people into not doing anything wrong...which judging by the way society is these days....it isn't working
I would say Heaven seems more plausible than Hell... ultimately if a God exists it would make sense that he would reside in a Realm that could be considered Heaven. But Hell is sort of a weird concept... a place of Eternal Torment does not sound like something that would come from a Loving God. 
Good can not exist without evil, f or every positive charge, there is a negative. If heaven is plausible as you say then so is hell.....oh wait you were talking to Cattle, my bad.  *walks away*
well that is not necessarily true... remember before Lucifer sinned... all that Existed was Good... God and The Angels in Heaven... no Evil or Sin persisted until Lucifer's turn against God. Secondly, after all is done in The End Times... it is stated in the Bible that all will be put back the way it was supposed to be by God. Hell, Death, Suffering and all that stuff will No Longer exist... meaning all that will be is God and Holy Things in the Presence of God / Jesus within the New Heavens and New Earth.  
Don't you usually take the other side of the argument? I thought you were anti all that stuff.
#26 Posted by King Saturn (224507 posts) - - Show Bio
@Dernman said:
@King Saturn said:
@cyberninja said:
@King Saturn said:
@cattlebattle said:
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
I LOL'd at this statement coinciding with your avatar....I don't know if you did it intentionally.  I really don't know about the origins of Heaven and Hell but is seems they are just used to scare people into not doing anything wrong...which judging by the way society is these days....it isn't working
I would say Heaven seems more plausible than Hell... ultimately if a God exists it would make sense that he would reside in a Realm that could be considered Heaven. But Hell is sort of a weird concept... a place of Eternal Torment does not sound like something that would come from a Loving God. 
Good can not exist without evil, f or every positive charge, there is a negative. If heaven is plausible as you say then so is hell.....oh wait you were talking to Cattle, my bad.  *walks away*
well that is not necessarily true... remember before Lucifer sinned... all that Existed was Good... God and The Angels in Heaven... no Evil or Sin persisted until Lucifer's turn against God. Secondly, after all is done in The End Times... it is stated in the Bible that all will be put back the way it was supposed to be by God. Hell, Death, Suffering and all that stuff will No Longer exist... meaning all that will be is God and Holy Things in the Presence of God / Jesus within the New Heavens and New Earth.  
Don't you usually take the other side of the argument? I thought you were anti all that stuff.
I do... but I only do that because it's fun to play the bad guy sometimes too.  
lol
#27 Posted by HughJass (375 posts) - - Show Bio

@King Saturn: The bad guy?

#28 Posted by King Saturn (224507 posts) - - Show Bio
@HughJass said:

@King Saturn: The bad guy?

I figured someone would catch that... if ultimately I believe one thing and I play the role of acting like I believe something else just to get a rise out of people... I would consider myself playing the role of a bad guy. 
#29 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:
@cyberninja:  
The fact that almost all Christians believe that their way is the only way to heaven says otherwise.  
 
Not necessarily. 
The Bible states very specifically that discipleship with Jesus is the only path to Heaven ("Jesus answered 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.' John 14:6). If I believed anything different, I wouldn't be a Christian. 
However, believing that does not mean I believe I'm a better person than anybody else. ("For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Romans 3:23). 
That is where the humility part comes in. Humility is an absolutely crucial element of Christianity. It's just not often seen because, as humans, it is our natural tendency to not want to be completely and totally humble to another.  
 
 
 You say the fact that Christians believe that their way is the only way to heaven is not necessarily true but go on saying that believing in Jesus is the only way to heaven. This fundamental flaw is so great that the "humility" you speak of seems irrelevant, and frankly it is. 
 
@(((Prodigy))) said:

 The very presence of so many Christian missionaries in so many countries IS in itself the problem. You can't walk into a stranger's house, stand in a corner of a living room and say I will only speak to a person who will come to me .  
 
What you just said is not the same as shoving Christianity down somebody's throat. Even if I go door-to-door evangelizing in my neighborhood, I go out expecting the vast majority of people to just say, "No" and close the door in my face. I get the door closed in my face a lot. There's nothing I can do about that. But if I'm i'm a stranger's house, standing in a corner of the living room, it's only because the person already have some level of interest in what I have to say. There's no other reason they would let me in their house to talk.  
 

If a government allows a Christian missionary into their country that doesn't mean that most the people in that country agree with the government, when in reality it's quite the opposite. As for preaching in your neighborhood, I assumed it was the Christian way to love your neighbor and respect his/her religion instead of preaching to them and trying to convert them. Or may be I'm wrong and "spreading the word" no matter what  IS  the Christian way even at the expense of other having their throats jammed with the words of Jesus. Either way there is a cost to "spreading the word" is all I'm saying.  
 
@(((Prodigy))) said:

 
I agree, no matter how much Christians might preach and show "love" all they want, but in the grand scheme of things you can't force love so to speak; It's there or it isn't. If it's not there, you've got to be able to admit it, then move on and leave them alone. Sadly "NO" isn't an answer most Christians are willing to hear, so they will continue preaching and keep doing what they do, because in their mind they are right, and everyone else is wrong.   It's true that love can't be forced, but true love doesn't just stand up and walk away forever after one rejection.  That's where evangelism gets difficult. When I'm talking to someone who honestly isn't interested in hearing what I have to say, I know it's my duty and responsibility as a Christian to not just give up on them completely, but I also have to realize that trying to force the issue will only turn them off to me even more. In those cases, the best thing for a Christian to do is find the 'happy medium' between those two options: I stay in contact with the person, just as a friend. Let them see through my life what Christianity has done for me and changed me. And if they ever want to open up and listen to what I have to say, I'll already be there.
 That perspective on love is quite alarming I wouldn't be surprised if some people filed for restraining orders.  Some people need to get the message and move on. 
#30 Posted by Owie (3815 posts) - - Show Bio

@(((Prodigy))) said:

@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along.
Well, that idea has a sort of inherant problem. Many people (myself included) draw their worldview from a particular religion. Many religions (Christianity being the most notable, in this case) command that their followers not only follow the religion themselves, but also attempt to be bringing other people into that religion. Let me put it this way. Say a friend of yours is a Christian, believes in God, goes to church, etc. One of the fundamental principles of Christianity is being bold about one's faith and "making disciples of all nations." If your friend claims to be a Christian but never tries to get you to start going to church with him, he probably doesn't fully believe in Christianity himself. Therefore, going off of what you said, the only religious people you don't have a problem with are the ones who don't follow the commands of their own religion.

I just want to emphasize that not all religions require proselytizing, as you noted yourself. For instance, Buddhism. So the other guy could mean, "I only have a problem with Christianity and other proselytizing religions" and not "people who don't follow the commands of their own religion." Also, certainly every interpretation/branch of Christianity emphasizes different aspects of the bible and thus different preferred degrees and kinds of actions in the world. Evangelical Christianity emphasizes proselytizing much more than Catholicism, for instance.

#31 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
@cyberninja said:
@King Saturn said:
@cattlebattle said:
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
I LOL'd at this statement coinciding with your avatar....I don't know if you did it intentionally.  I really don't know about the origins of Heaven and Hell but is seems they are just used to scare people into not doing anything wrong...which judging by the way society is these days....it isn't working
I would say Heaven seems more plausible than Hell... ultimately if a God exists it would make sense that he would reside in a Realm that could be considered Heaven. But Hell is sort of a weird concept... a place of Eternal Torment does not sound like something that would come from a Loving God. 
Good can not exist without evil, f or every positive charge, there is a negative. If heaven is plausible as you say then so is hell.....oh wait you were talking to Cattle, my bad.  *walks away*
well that is not necessarily true... remember before Lucifer sinned... all that Existed was Good... God and The Angels in Heaven... no Evil or Sin persisted until Lucifer's turn against God. Secondly, after all is done in The End Times... it is stated in the Bible that all will be put back the way it was supposed to be by God. Hell, Death, Suffering and all that stuff will No Longer exist... meaning all that will be is God and Holy Things in the Presence of God / Jesus within the New Heavens and New Earth.  
Lucifer's fate was already written so in a sense God already had a role for Lucifer in the grand scheme of things; Then there is the existence of the Snake who lured Eve with the promise of forbidden knowledge, the very snake who represents temptation and evil.
#32 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio
@cyberninja:   

You say the fact that Christians believe that their way is the only way to heaven is not necessarily true but go on saying that believing in Jesus is the only way to heaven. This fundamental flaw is so great that the "humility" you speak of seems irrelevant, and frankly it is.  


 
You misunderstood me. When I said "not necessarily", I was referring to you saying that the Christian idea of Jesus being the only way to Heaven is contradictory to profession of love and humility. 
I was not saying that Jesus is "not necessarily" the only way to get to Heaven. 
 

If a government allows a Christian missionary into their country that doesn't mean that most the people in that country agree with the government, when in reality it's quite the opposite. As for preaching in your neighborhood, I assumed it was the Christian way to love your neighbor and respect his/her religion instead of preaching to them and trying to convert them. Or may be I'm wrong and "spreading the word" no matter what  IS  the Christian way even at the expense of other having their throats jammed with the words of Jesus. Either way there is a cost to "spreading the word" is all I'm saying. 


 
If my neighbor is practicing a religion that my religion says is wrong, I have two choices. I can evangelize to my neighbor (with love and humility), or I can denounce my own religion. 
If no two people's worldviews ever came in conflict with each other, it would mean there is no such thing as freedom of religion. Either everyone in the world would have to believe the same thing, or everyone would believe nothing. That's simply the way religion/worldview words. Truth is not a relative concept. Either there is one particular religion that is actually right, or none of them are. And everyone who follows a religion believes that religion is right.  
 

That perspective on love is quite alarming I wouldn't be surprised if some people filed for restraining orders.  Some people need to get the message and move on. 


 
 
You would put a restraining order on someone who just wants to stick around and be your friend?
#33 Posted by iLLituracy (13537 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh, I love a good theological debate.

#34 Posted by danhimself (22651 posts) - - Show Bio

My great uncle believes that the earth is only a few thousand years old....if you ask him about cavemen and dinosaurs he'll tell you that they didn't exist and they're just media propaganda

#35 Posted by White Mage (18740 posts) - - Show Bio

@King Saturn said:

@Supreme Marvel said:

Neither do I. Some people believe the planet has been around for a few thousand years. Others believe it to be around 14 billion years. We're all different and that's not a bad thing. Some of my friends believe in H/H, doesn't bother me. As long as they're not throwing it in my face, if so, then am throwing my fist in theirs. :D

I think you mean "Others believe the Planet to be around 4 Billion Years Old". The Universe is about 14 Billion Years Old ( approximately 13.5 Billion Years Old ) just being a nit picking egghead since I am sort of bored... lol

You so smart and stuff :)

#36 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

I watched the second video.

"When people watch violent secular movies, their souls get tormented without them realizing it."

This sh*t is hilarious.

#37 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:
@cyberninja:   

You say the fact that Christians believe that their way is the only way to heaven is not necessarily true but go on saying that believing in Jesus is the only way to heaven. This fundamental flaw is so great that the "humility" you speak of seems irrelevant, and frankly it is.  


 
You misunderstood me. When I said "not necessarily", I was referring to you saying that the Christian idea of Jesus being the only way to Heaven is contradictory to profession of love and humility. 
I was not saying that Jesus is "not necessarily" the only way to get to Heaven. 
 

 Exactly. 
  
@(((Prodigy))) said:


If a government allows a Christian missionary into their country that doesn't mean that most the people in that country agree with the government, when in reality it's quite the opposite. As for preaching in your neighborhood, I assumed it was the Christian way to love your neighbor and respect his/her religion instead of preaching to them and trying to convert them. Or may be I'm wrong and "spreading the word" no matter what  IS  the Christian way even at the expense of other having their throats jammed with the words of Jesus. Either way there is a cost to "spreading the word" is all I'm saying. 


 
If my neighbor is practicing a religion that my religion says is wrong, I have two choices. I can evangelize to my neighbor (with love and humility), or I can denounce my own religion. 
If no two people's worldviews ever came in conflict with each other, it would mean there is no such thing as freedom of religion. Either everyone in the world would have to believe the same thing, or everyone would believe nothing. That's simply the way religion/worldview words. Truth is not a relative concept. Either there is one particular religion that is actually right, or none of them are. And everyone who follows a religion believes that religion is right.  
 

*Sigh* What you believe in is yours and yours alone, but when you go around saying someone else's believe ( or lack thereof) is wrong, now that's just asking for trouble, that's just common sense. 
 
 @(((Prodigy))) said:


That perspective on love is quite alarming I wouldn't be surprised if some people filed for restraining orders.  Some people need to get the message and move on. 

  You would put a restraining order on someone who just wants to stick around and be your friend?

 If I don't want to befriend that person and that person doesn't leave me alone, then you bet your @ss we have a problem. 
#38 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@InnerVenom123 said:

I watched the second video.

"When people watch violent secular movies, their souls get tormented without them realizing it."

This sh*t is hilarious.

LOL  
 
So true :)
#39 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
Well, that idea has a sort of inherant problem. Many people (myself included) draw their worldview from a particular religion. Many religions (Christianity being the most notable, in this case) command that their followers not only follow the religion themselves, but also attempt to be bringing other people into that religion. Let me put it this way. Say a friend of yours is a Christian, believes in God, goes to church, etc. One of the fundamental principles of Christianity is being bold about one's faith and "making disciples of all nations." If your friend claims to be a Christian but never tries to get you to start going to church with him, he probably doesn't fully believe in Christianity himself. Therefore, going off of what you said, the only religious people you don't have a problem with are the ones who don't follow the commands of their own religion. 
 
That is true about their being an inherent problem with that idea, just naturally there is an inherent problem with the reverse/alternative, a more tangled problem - inconsistent truths (when one person, or group, maintains the notion of exclusivity of truth and so on) - and then its sort of like sports and sports fans. Take any sport with like 10 teams, and then and get all those fans of one team that one team is the best, the greatest and so on. There is the potential to expect other people to have a willingness to be open minded to the ideas one could present, but also a requirement to stay loyal and not consider the or waiver in belief - take on religious views and ideas of other. So natural oppositions/tension. Another inherent problem. Also though, eventually it also comes down to trust. I know many Christians who consider themselves Christian, but question the why and how of how others define its application. God is perfect but man is flawed and so their God and religion is much more personal. 
Moderator
#40 Posted by RainEffect (3240 posts) - - Show Bio

What I don't agree with is when people judge if there is a God or if there is a Heaven/Hell by what occurs in the real world. People might say to you "there is no such thing as a God, look at how messed up the world is" - where is the logical rationale in that? You are defining the existence of a supernatural being by what occurs in our world. There are hundreds of galaxies out there, but you believe our world is the center of everything and the justification of existence? 
 
This goes back to that age-old argument of, if there is a God, why doesn't he stop war/famine/disease. To them I say, why would God stop something that he was not responsible for?

#41 Posted by SC (13266 posts) - - Show Bio

Heaven and hell concepts are based on ignorance and are pretty useful tools for control and manipulation. Such ideas, notions and concepts have been around before we realized the Earth was round and a tiny blue dot in an infinite void, before anyone could explain fire and why and how it moves. Know that stunt gel? There is that gel stuff you can apply to your body so you can light yourself up on fire and walk around on fire. Couldn't you imagine going back 1000, or 2000 years and running around blazing for people who haven't even seen a lighter or fireplace?  
 
One of the greatest things the human mind can do is question itself but questions are scary and answers are comfort. Having questions with no easy answers therefore... 

Moderator
#42 Posted by _Marco_Smith_ (1621 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't believe in a heaven or hell. That would kind of screw with my belief that there is no good or evil.

#43 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio
@cyberninja:   

Exactly.  


 
However, that worldview is not contradictory to the ideas of love and humility, is what I was saying. 
  

*Sigh* What you believe in is yours and yours alone, but when you go around saying someone else's believe ( or lack thereof) is wrong, now that's just asking for trouble, that's just common sense. 


  
That's basically what I just said.
If people have differing worldviews, there will be conflict. That's just the way it is. If nobody ever has any conflict with anybody else, it means that either everyone believes exactly the same thing, or nobody believes anything. 
You may not like the idea that some people disagree with each other to the point of confrontation, but that is quite simply the way the world has always worked. I'm not going to stop following the dictations of what I believe just because some people say "Why don't we all just get along." If I did that, then I never truly believed in Christianity in the first place.  
 

If I don't want to befriend that person and that person doesn't leave me alone, then you bet your @ss we have a problem.  


 
Ok. Love doesn't just give up, but it can't be forced on somebody either. If you resent a person so much that you make it clear you don't even want them as a friend, there's really nothing at all that we can do about that.
#44 Posted by TheRedRobin (226 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I for one believe in Heaven and Hell but I don't want to shove my ideas down someone's throat.

#45 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio
@SC said:
@(((Prodigy))) said:
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
Well, that idea has a sort of inherant problem. Many people (myself included) draw their worldview from a particular religion. Many religions (Christianity being the most notable, in this case) command that their followers not only follow the religion themselves, but also attempt to be bringing other people into that religion. Let me put it this way. Say a friend of yours is a Christian, believes in God, goes to church, etc. One of the fundamental principles of Christianity is being bold about one's faith and "making disciples of all nations." If your friend claims to be a Christian but never tries to get you to start going to church with him, he probably doesn't fully believe in Christianity himself. Therefore, going off of what you said, the only religious people you don't have a problem with are the ones who don't follow the commands of their own religion. 
 That is true about their being an inherent problem with that idea, just naturally there is an inherent problem with the reverse/alternative, a more tangled problem - inconsistent truths (when one person, or group, maintains the notion of exclusivity of truth and so on) - and then its sort of like sports and sports fans. Take any sport with like 10 teams, and then and get all those fans of one team that one team is the best, the greatest and so on. There is the potential to expect other people to have a willingness to be open minded to the ideas one could present, but also a requirement to stay loyal and not consider the or waiver in belief - take on religious views and ideas of other. So natural oppositions/tension. Another inherent problem. Also though, eventually it also comes down to trust. I know many Christians who consider themselves Christian, but question the why and how of how others define its application. God is perfect but man is flawed and so their God and religion is much more personal. 
But, in the end, there is one team that actually is better than the others are. Truth is not relative. If everyone actually has a desire to put aside fandom and find out which team is the best, logical discussion and study of the teams will eventually begin to reveal the answer. 
Yes, there is natural opposition/tension. That's one of the things I've been trying to explain to cyberninja. It's just the way it all works. If sports fans of different teams never get into opposition with each other, they're not really fans at all.
#46 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:

 
However, that worldview is not contradictory to the ideas of love and humility, is what I was saying. 
  

  Love and humility is a two way street, the sooner people learn that the better. 
 
 @(((Prodigy))) said:
@cyberninja:   


*Sigh* What you believe in is yours and yours alone, but when you go around saying someone else's believe ( or lack thereof) is wrong, now that's just asking for trouble, that's just common sense. 


  
That's basically what I just said.
If people have differing worldviews, there will be conflict. That's just the way it is. If nobody ever has any conflict with anybody else, it means that either everyone believes exactly the same thing, or nobody believes anything. 
You may not like the idea that some people disagree with each other to the point of confrontation, but that is quite simply the way the world has always worked. I'm not going to stop following the dictations of what I believe just because some people say "Why don't we all just get along." If I did that, then I never truly believed in Christianity in the first place.  
 

The conflict wouldn't have happen if people minded their own business but sadly spreading the word is the Christian way. Thus the conflict in itself It's not really "just the way it is" but rather the byproduct of trying to dictate other people's lives. 1984 wasn't meant to be the blueprint for the future, I don't know about you, but I like living in a world where everyone is different. Like you said, if you lived by and followed "why don't we all just get along" then you wouldn't be a true Christian, and therein lies the problem. 
  
 
@(((Prodigy))) said:

If I don't want to befriend that person and that person doesn't leave me alone, then you bet your @ss we have a problem.  

 Ok. Love doesn't just give up, but it can't be forced on somebody either. If you resent a person so much that you make it clear you don't even want them as a friend, there's really nothing at all that we can do about that.
Well you could always mind your own business, but we all know that's not going to happen, so when your practice and your meddling in other people's lives comes back to bite you in the @ss I wouldn't be surprised if you continued saying "they hate us because of our freedom."
#47 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2443 posts) - - Show Bio
@cyberninja:   

The conflict wouldn't have happen if people minded their own business but sadly spreading the word is the Christian way. Thus the conflict in itself It's not really "just the way it is" but rather the byproduct of trying to dictate other people's lives. 1984 wasn't meant to be the blueprint for the future, I don't know about you, but I like living in a world where everyone is different. Like you said, if you lived by and followed "why don't we all just get along" then you wouldn't be a true Christian, and therein lies the problem.


  
 
I'm not sure exactly what viewpoint you're coming from here. 
You have stated multiple times that you with that everyone, regardless of religion, would just stay out of each other's business and not bother each other. But you have also said that you like living in a world where people have different worldviews, and you have agreed that with differing worldviews comes conflict between people. 
 
You're saying "It's ok for you to believe what you believe, as long as you do not try to encroach upon what I believe." 
Well, if what I believe involves wanting to get others to believe the same thing, then you don't really want me to believe what I believe.
#48 Posted by Mercy_ (92925 posts) - - Show Bio

@(((Prodigy)))

@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
Well, that idea has a sort of inherant problem. Many people (myself included) draw their worldview from a particular religion. Many religions (Christianity being the most notable, in this case) command that their followers not only follow the religion themselves, but also attempt to be bringing other people into that religion. 
Let me put it this way. Say a friend of yours is a Christian, believes in God, goes to church, etc. One of the fundamental principles of Christianity is being bold about one's faith and "making disciples of all nations." If your friend claims to be a Christian but never tries to get you to start going to church with him, he probably doesn't fully believe in Christianity himself. 
Therefore, going off of what you said, the only religious people you don't have a problem with are the ones who don't follow the commands of their own religion. 
That doesn't.necessarily hold true for all branches, though.
Moderator
#49 Posted by cyberninja (10413 posts) - - Show Bio
@(((Prodigy))) said:
@cyberninja:   

The conflict wouldn't have happen if people minded their own business but sadly spreading the word is the Christian way. Thus the conflict in itself It's not really "just the way it is" but rather the byproduct of trying to dictate other people's lives. 1984 wasn't meant to be the blueprint for the future, I don't know about you, but I like living in a world where everyone is different. Like you said, if you lived by and followed "why don't we all just get along" then you wouldn't be a true Christian, and therein lies the problem.

   I'm not sure exactly what viewpoint you're coming from here. You have stated multiple times that you with that everyone, regardless of religion, would just stay out of each other's business and not bother each other. But you have also said that you like living in a world where people have different worldviews, and you have agreed that with differing worldviews comes conflict between people.  You're saying "It's ok for you to believe what you believe, as long as you do not try to encroach upon what I believe." Well, if what I believe involves wanting to get others to believe the same thing, then you don't really want me to believe what I believe.
Like I said multiple times before therein lies the problem. As much as I would like you to believe whatever you want to believe, its fine with me as long it's not at the expense of others' discomfort. I don't really know how to say this more clearly.
#50 Posted by King Saturn (224507 posts) - - Show Bio
@cyberninja said:
@King Saturn said:
@cyberninja said:
@King Saturn said:
@cattlebattle said:
@cyberninja said:
It doesn't matter what people believe in as long as people don't wear their beliefs on their sleeves and just got along. 
I LOL'd at this statement coinciding with your avatar....I don't know if you did it intentionally.  I really don't know about the origins of Heaven and Hell but is seems they are just used to scare people into not doing anything wrong...which judging by the way society is these days....it isn't working
I would say Heaven seems more plausible than Hell... ultimately if a God exists it would make sense that he would reside in a Realm that could be considered Heaven. But Hell is sort of a weird concept... a place of Eternal Torment does not sound like something that would come from a Loving God. 
Good can not exist without evil, f or every positive charge, there is a negative. If heaven is plausible as you say then so is hell.....oh wait you were talking to Cattle, my bad.  *walks away*
well that is not necessarily true... remember before Lucifer sinned... all that Existed was Good... God and The Angels in Heaven... no Evil or Sin persisted until Lucifer's turn against God. Secondly, after all is done in The End Times... it is stated in the Bible that all will be put back the way it was supposed to be by God. Hell, Death, Suffering and all that stuff will No Longer exist... meaning all that will be is God and Holy Things in the Presence of God / Jesus within the New Heavens and New Earth.  
Lucifer's fate was already written so in a sense God already had a role for Lucifer in the grand scheme of things; Then there is the existence of the Snake who lured Eve with the promise of forbidden knowledge, the very snake who represents temptation and evil.
Even if we accept all of these instances... There was still a point when only God existed and No Evil did exist. There was time when Lucifer had not done Evil and all things were Good in Heaven.  As well as you have The New Heaven and The New Earth Prophecy which talks about all forms of Evil no longer existing... and nothing but Good and Holy Things will be with God at this time supposedly.