#1 Edited by Wolfrazer (7678 posts) - - Show Bio

Now I am sure there are some fans of the Matrix trilogy here, I myself love the movies. However...after thinking about it and then reading an article on Cracked.com(yes I realize that its a humor site but it makes some points..) here is the question for you Matrix Viners.

Were the Resistance Fighters actually the enemy? Lets just think on this for a second.

What exactly were the machines doing wrong? Turning human into batteries...ok, in exchange for them doing what? Giving humans to live out their lives, completely unaware that they weren't in a dream world...as Cypher said

"Ignorance is bliss."

Compared to the real world, where everything is a ***pile and all dark and gloomy.

The Agents are just there to keep things in order and make sure the Matrix isn't messing up, in fact Neo was the one who caused Smith to become a virus and thus threatening the Matrix. If anything Neo was the cause of all the problems that happened later, because all Smith was before was a program that was intended to keep things orderly.

Just wanting to know if any other Viners have any thoughts on this..

#2 Posted by LaserLambert (636 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool, so you're a communist?

#3 Edited by Wolfrazer (7678 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool, so you're a communist?

No? All I am asking is a question, don't see what that has to do with communism.

#4 Posted by AweSam (7376 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends how you look at it. I'm not in a position to go into detail. The machines probably knew mankind was on a course to self-destruct. They were just doing their job to preserve us. That doesn't exactly give them the right to control us. Some might see it as them just using us as we used them. What if they decided to just kill everyone?

#5 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (35003 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: I'd rather live a sh!t life in the wild fighting for my freedom than living ignorantly in a farm waiting for the butcher.

#6 Posted by LaserLambert (636 posts) - - Show Bio

@laserlambert said:

Cool, so you're a communist?

No? All I am asking is a question, don't see what that has to do with communism.

really? I like the Matrix and all, but it's not exactly subtle with it's symbolism. you said it yourself

What exactly were the machines doing wrong? Turning human into batteries...ok, in exchange for them doing what? Giving humans to live out their lives, completely unaware that they weren't in a dream world.

Communism, consumerism, whatever, living as a shuffling mindless sheep either way.

#7 Edited by Wolfrazer (7678 posts) - - Show Bio

@awesam said:

Depends how you look at it. I'm not in a position to go into detail. The machines probably knew mankind was on a course to self-destruct. They were just doing their job to preserve us. That doesn't exactly give them the right to control us. Some might see it as them just using us as we used them. What if they decided to just kill everyone?

Well then they would shut down and nothing would be around. Though what is better, being killed or living in a dreamworld where you are able to live out your life without knowing that you are being used by machines?

#8 Posted by AweSam (7376 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: Dream-world, but I wouldn't know, so it would be exactly like this world.

#9 Posted by Wolfrazer (7678 posts) - - Show Bio

@awesam said:

@wolfrazer: Dream-world, but I wouldn't know, so it would be exactly like this world.

Well then...there ya go!

#10 Posted by Extremis (3363 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: what the machines were doing wrong was harvesting human beings for energy. Living, sentient, emotional beings are being imprisoned in their minds against their will to be kept from the 'real' reality: that they are in fact prisoners without the ability to choose this existence as it has been decided for them.

You say ignorance is bliss and that being in the matrix is even desirable, but that is a matter of debate and that each person should decide for themselves. And the fact that people can't decide this for themselves is totalitarianism. People have become slaves in the worst, most despicable way; that they have been ruled over to such a state that they are not even aware of their own subjugation. This is why the machines are wrong and immoral in what they do.

It's a very interesting concept the Wachowski's posit to us, and timely at that. One could easily liken what happens in the Matrix to the factory farming that goes on now with animals. The Matrix is a masterpiece of cinema for this and many other reasons.

#11 Posted by SoA (5243 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: you are right . it makes sense instead of living in a dystopia they live in a world where unbeknownst to them is a fantasy .

#12 Edited by nerdork (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

Ignorance is bliss for those who are afraid of the truth. The problem with The Matrix, is that no one was the master of the own fate, their destinies were fixed. The unknown may be scary, but it is how we are meant to live.

#13 Edited by Wolfrazer (7678 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis: But the point is, people don't know that they are being used as energy sources. Of course we know, because...well duh we seen the movies. But what I am saying is if we didn't know, is it such a bad thing?

#14 Edited by Extremis (3363 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: I don't think you paid careful attention to my post as, Yes it is a bad thing simply because the choice has been made for them and hid from them.

#15 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio

The problem with the Matrix (and by extension this question) was that it went beyond one film. Even though I liked Reloaded, Smith coming back completely ruined the franchise. Neo created something that was infinitely more powerful than him and basically caused the end of the human race. (How are the resistance going to feed 6 billion freshly released people? The machines will be busy making their own forms of fuel). Had they not pulled two sequels out of their a**, and the first movie ended on its own terms, I believe things would have been very different for the viewer in terms of "should we be unplugged?"

#16 Edited by nerdork (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis: But the point is, people don't know that they are being used as energy sources. Of course we know, because...well duh we seen the movies. But what I am saying is if we didn't know, is it such a bad thing?

Based on that, we would be ignorant to the fact. It wouldnt/couldnt bother anyone; however, the idea of this type of slavery is still inherently wrong.

If you truly like complete, ignorant submission, you and Ultron would get along rather well. lol :P

#17 Edited by Extremis (3363 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: I choose not to really acknowledge them altogether as it spiraled into something worse than where it started.

I prefer to look at the original on its own for its own astounding merits. There are plenty of other great films that had an awful sequel or two, but that shouldn't ruin the accolades of the first.

Edit: examples being Godfather 3, every Alien movie after Aliens, every Terminator movie after T2, Every sequel to Nightmare on Elm Street, the same goes for the Exorcist, and the list goes on and on...

#18 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis: True, and that's how I look at them too. Revolutions, in particular, is just an abomination that should be ignored.

#19 Edited by Wolfrazer (7678 posts) - - Show Bio

Edit: Eh nvrm...I ain't really looking at it like some others are I guess.

#20 Posted by Wolfrazer (7678 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerdork: I don't like slavery, I just don't really see the problem if all humans are just being batteries and are completely unaware that they are, and are able to live out their lives.

#21 Posted by Extremis (3363 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: well yeah, youre looking at it as if there's no objective form of morality. If people decided to live in the matrix of their own volition that's one thing, but to have that life decided for you without your own consent is just objectively wrong. Just because they don't know they are slaves doesn't mean they are still slaves, and hence makes the act objectively wrong.

#22 Edited by ColonelRunAway (363 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis: But the point is, people don't know that they are being used as energy sources. Of course we know, because...well duh we seen the movies. But what I am saying is if we didn't know, is it such a bad thing?

#23 Posted by nerdork (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolfrazer: The problem, or absence of, with total subjugation is going to vary from Viner to Viner, I guess. I, for one, enjoy my informed freedom. Blissful ignorance, is still ignorance, and that, to me, is a terrible thing. But, I am also not afraid to be a part of the unknown, and have no need for a programmed utopia.

#24 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29510 posts) - - Show Bio

Cool, so you're a communist?

I love that this is the first response our humble community delivers.

#25 Edited by SavageDragon (2252 posts) - - Show Bio

Check out the ANi Matrix. There is a amazing two part story called the second Renaissance that details how the war (eventually won by the machines) began with the machines.

#26 Posted by Extremis (3363 posts) - - Show Bio

@innervenom123: yep. It's sad but people don't even know what communism is.

#27 Posted by SpideyIvyDaredevilFan26 (6269 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, the machines WERE using humans as energy, so I can only assume that they were slowly killing them, or at least not allowing them to live very long lives.

#28 Edited by broo1232 (1520 posts) - - Show Bio

Look the Matrix just the first one is awesome it is really, really good but revolutions is one of the worst films I've ever seen! Most of isn't in the Matrix and it just degenerates after like 20 minutes in to pure mindless action, that we've all seen before that goes nowhere and has a load of rubbish acting in it (and there's the stupid kid who opens the gate which is just so bad it isn't true)

#29 Edited by pooty (11717 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerdork: I don't like slavery, I just don't really see the problem if all humans are just being batteries and are completely unaware that they are, and are able to live out their lives.

I'm with wolfrazer on this. Even in this "real" there are so many limits put on what we can do. Our entire existence is whatever we think it is. Our reality is a matter of perception. Our actual physical activity means little. EX: If I have a dream that I am fighting aliens or having sex, even though I am sleeping and not moving, I still have the FEELING or PERCEPTION that what I am doing is real. I will take the near limitless possibilities of my mind over the dreadful existence of the real world.

#30 Edited by nerdork (4039 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty: LOL, I forgot about this topic…and, I politely ask to be left out of the remainder of this thread. Not because it annoys me, but I said everything I had to say, and don’t really care about it anymore.

#31 Posted by WaveMotionCannon (5665 posts) - - Show Bio
#32 Edited by SC (13352 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh well, actually there was no real world in the Matrix, at any point and there weren't robots either, all of that was just made up protocols to sell and trick concepts for thought experiments. There are no enemies or freedom.

Moderator
#33 Posted by JediXMan (31289 posts) - - Show Bio

The Matrix is the illusion of choice and free will, when in fact it does not exist. That's what the Resistance has a problem with: they believe humans should be able to dictate their own lives, not have another entity do it. That said, technically, this is humanity dictating itself: the Matrix is the result of some... poor choices made on the part of humanity. It was their choice to create the AI in the first place.

Also, it's mentioned that those who are unplugged always felt like something was missing in their lives.

Moderator
#34 Edited by Glitch_Spawn (17132 posts) - - Show Bio

It just depends on what you define as evil. Hiding the truth no matter how bad it happens to be, at least in my opinion, is evil.

#35 Posted by young_beamer (127 posts) - - Show Bio

really good points

#36 Posted by Illuminatus (9489 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis said:

@innervenom123: yep. It's sad but people don't even know what communism is.

The concept of being provided with a false reality, having your thoughts and actions planned and controlled, and individuals in suits who walk around to suppress any sort of systemic dissent to 'The System' is very reminiscent of 'Big C' communism, otherwise known as Soviet/Maoist Communism. So, calling someone a Communist by denoting that they are fond of a system that puts the blinders on for you and takes care of you from the cradle to the grave is not exactly erroneous.

True communism (something the Soviets, Maoists, etc. painfully avoided) would actually end with vast areas of land dissolving the State, and allowing for the people to collectively decided their fate. This has not been achieved since Marx postulated these ideas.

#37 Posted by Extremis (3363 posts) - - Show Bio

@illuminatus: well if youre saying its valid to call someone a communist for being controlled you just contradict yourself as true communism is the exact opposite of having someone control your actions. True communism has yet to exist. Things that people try to pass off as communism is just a thing used to 1)give communism a bad name and 2) give citizens under it the illusion of their own control. It's really state capitalism that you are talking about. And thats just basically a capitalist economy (like ours here) with all decisions being made by governing forces. It's basically the complete opposite of Communism.

Marx actually predicted things would take a turn similar to this as people wouldn't immediately be able to achieve communism as the system would continue to corrupt itself from within, even after revolutions and calls for communism. This is because the system itself is the problem. Putting in place another system completely misses the point. The fundamental problem, Marx asserts, is the existence of such a governing system to begin with - one which is not representative of its people and one which has ulterior motivations that undermine the true needs of the people. Only when people are in complete control of their workforce and how its decisions are made will we be able to truly realize our freedom. You're calling nations communist when in reality they are a standing example of how badly a nation is corrupted when it fails to reach true communism. Such examples only add to the argument that communism is necessary.

#38 Posted by BaneStrokeLoboGrundyBatArrow (1402 posts) - - Show Bio

(C'mon gotta say something smart....) Ummmm..... I liked the Matrix....... (NAILED IT!)

#39 Edited by Illuminatus (9489 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis: ...everything you said is just an extension of what I previously stated.

There is a very clear difference between Communism and stateless, pure communism. I demonstrated that, and any armchair political scientist with an objective take on the matter would agree with me. Let's leave it at that.

#40 Edited by Dernman (15714 posts) - - Show Bio

Trilogy? Nah The Matrix ended after the first movie. I don't know what those other two movies were.

#41 Posted by Extremis (3363 posts) - - Show Bio

@illuminatus: I'd be fine to leave it where I left off actually as you misrepresented what qualifies as communism. Im also not quite sure why you replied to me to begin with. I never called you out. But since you felt inclined to reply to me a week after the fact, I thought I'd correct you. Everything I said is not an extension of what you've said as you are making a distinction between communism and 'pure communism' which doesn't exist. The only pure communism is communism. Any variation to it would completely challenge its fundamental foundation. To assume otherwise undermines the very fundamentals of communist thought. The types of 'communism' you mentioned are pseudo-communism at best and are economic systems that don't even exhibit communist motivations.

#42 Posted by Extremis (3363 posts) - - Show Bio