Should Islamic State be indicted by the ICC on war crimes/crimes against humanity?

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Paracelsus

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Edited By Paracelsus

The recent murders of 147 Christian students in Kenya murdered( for their faith)by Islamist militia Al-Shabaab along with the continuing atrocities attributed to Islamic State in its territory has raised the issue of whether as to whether or not IS( and other groups such as Boko Haram, Al Shabaab and of course Al Qaeda) amount ot more than simple terrorism and are in fact war crimes/crimes against humanity, coming under the jurisdiction of the ICC( International Criminal Court) at The Hague as John Bellinger III, a former legal advisor to the Bush Administration suggested in an op-ed piece the International New York Times( April 3, 2015).

Personally I have my doubts as to whether this a good idea. Firstly the whole attitude of the US and Israel to the ICC is pretty dubious( amounting in effect to "indict everyone else but us") Secondly, the territory ruled/controlled by Islamic State is composed of two countries( Iraq and Syria) who have neither signed or ratified by the ICC Convention, Thirdly, the whole "War On Terror" business is seen(not least in the Middle East/ Muslim world) as an American led campaign not just on violent jihadism but Islam itself. Fourthly it seems likely that at least two Security Council members- yes you've guessed it, China and Russia- will oppose any such move to refer IS to the ICC. Fifthly, the ICC was intended to be "a court of last resort" and there is NO evidence that any one country cannot prosecute and convict violent jihadists on its own (as the UK does) This may seems strange given my previous proposal that the ICC indict President Vladimir Putin on charges of waging aggressive war in Ukraine but I think that unless expressly requested to do so by a signatory state(say Nigeria) the Court should keep its distance from the whole business of violent jihadism!

Anybody think as I do?

Terry

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BatWatch

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Sure. If that doesn't work, we can call an old lady who will threaten to put them to bed without dinner if they don't play nice.

What could possibly make anyone think that the Islamic State would give the slightest crap what the ICC rules?

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deactivated-61bde0e570bb9

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You can issue a big fancy indictment with gold letter head, held at a big fancy press conference with lots of pomp and circumstance.

As far ISIS is concerned, the piece of paper with the indictment on it is little more then toilet paper.

If you want to Indict them, do so with lead.

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deactivated-5e3b7f04aeb74

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Something tells me they wouldn't care.

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Paracelsus

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My reply is that IS may not care if indicted by the ICC(an unlikely possiblility admittedly) but if and when they are sitting in the dock at The Hague, then they start to care very much even if unlike Nuremburg and the IMTFE, they are not facing the prospect of execution for their crimes unlike the Germans and Japanese!(remember there are NO statute of limitations for war crimes or crimes against humanity, you have to be either dead or demonstratably senile before the hunt is over).

Terry

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@rd189 said:

You can issue a big fancy indictment with gold letter head, held at a big fancy press conference with lots of pomp and circumstance.

As far ISIS is concerned, the piece of paper with the indictment on it is little more then toilet paper.

If you want to Indict them, do so with lead.

Ha! Good line.

My reply is that IS may not care if indicted by the ICC(an unlikely possiblility admittedly) but if and when they are sitting in the dock at The Hague, then they start to care very much even if unlike Nuremburg and the IMTFE, they are not facing the prospect of execution for their crimes unlike the Germans and Japanese!(remember there are NO statute of limitations for war crimes or crimes against humanity, you have to be either dead or demonstratably senile before the hunt is over).

Terry

If the Islamic State ends up on the doorstep of The Hague, all of Europe has probably fallen, and the world is screwed.

From a defensive standpoint, I don't really think any Western powers need an excuse to prosecute Islamic State fighters, and from an Islamic State perspective, being able to more easily prosecute and kill them does not serve as a deterrent for them since they want to die for the cause.

I suppose there could be some countries out there that might need the extra encouragement to prosecute IS, and maybe an ICC condemnation would make the difference, but in general, I reject any concept of international bodies having authority over sovereign nations.

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Superguy1591

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If you caught Abu Bakr Al-Bagdadhi you could take him to the ICC, but I'm not sure you could do that to an organization. That seems like needless grandstanding that Republicans are famous for since they can't do anything productive.

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Rubear

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Hint. There is only one way to combat such threats as ISIS or neonazis. It's not papers and courts.
It's bombs, tanks and bringing of discord. And then after smashing part rebuilding of the destroyed infrastructure and long process of rooting out all ideas and followers of this creed or organisation. The mere name of it should became synonym not of power and dread, but of shame. It should became hated, not admired by every man in society where it emerged. The more secular and educated party of locals with cart blanche for maintaining of order is also helping.
The case of ISIS is very illustratory by the way. West supported rebellion of so called "opposition" of the "moderate muslims" against government with arms. Russia spoked against it. Russia told the world that this "moderate muslims" are terrorists. Then after some time this "moderate muslims" took out of pockets much larger knifes. And lo! Tremble! Isis is here! Suddenly they became not so moderate at all, yeah? The same with takeover on ukraine. Russia told the world that neonazis are shock troops of takeover. Nazis? What nazis? That suddenly the western world saw - oh, sorry, neonazis are really here. Are you seeing the pattern, dear reader?

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consolemaster001

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No because they're not a real country

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dshipp17

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#11  Edited By dshipp17

The ICC should be used for the special circumstances in which it was created: to deal with the war criminals of countries who are required to provide an unconditional surrender such as the case of the Nazi and Imperial Japan; in most other circumstances, no international body should be able to impose mandatory requirements on a sovereign country; thus, why would the ICC indict Israel?

ISIS, despite its ambitions and accomplishments, is still just a group of terrorists; if ISIS can get Western allies, plus the host countries, to conditionally surrender, as the case of the United States to Vietnam, or unconditionally surrender, than the ICC would be important if Western allies were able to get a conditional or unconditional surrender back from ISIS at a future point; in that instance, ISIS would have established itself as a sovereign nation or Empire that gained its power, despite starting off as a terrorist organization; it would be a world were at least the United States, the EU, Britain, Israel, and the entire Middle East were governed by ISIS under their interpretation of Sharia Law; ISIS would probably be doing mass executions throughout the United States daily to keep insurrection in check and have the United States military completely disarmed, but also facing militia activity; in this world, Russia, China, Japan, India, etc would be seeking to forge peace treaties with ISIS; than, say an incidental war with a country like China would have to create a fissure where a few of the Western countries would dare to engage ISIS in combat again. But, I see a Hamas authored ICC indictment against Israel as a real possibility.

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Eeshaan1685

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Sure, they should be indicted. With some 5.56mm to the head, and some 120mm Smoothbore rounds to the derriere.

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Paracelsus

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Apropos of the ICC and Israel- it is worth noting that all that has happened is that the PA has formally joined the Court and Hamas has been accused by Amnesty International of engaging in war crimes during Operation Cast Lead. As for the argument that no supranational body has the right to indict or impose terms on a sovereign nation, what do you think the Nuremburg and IMTFE(International Military Tribunal For The Far East) did to Germany and Japan?!

Terry

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SodamYat

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yes

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Straynger

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When you figure out who is funding ISIS, Al Qaida, Al Shaba, muslim brotherhood, etc... you will rethink everything.

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deactivated-097092725

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It's worth having the process started now, at the very least. Hopefully, if the time comes where individual people can be held accountable(coughSyriangovernmentofficialscough), enough of the bureaucratic tape will have been snipped through to allow a full reckoning of war crimes committed.

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lettsplay10

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Yes

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SuperAdam

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England is done, in less than 20 yrs it will kick off. Team USA will fly in save them from extinction

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Pretty sure the US will be fighting its second Civil War in 20 years.

In other words, we're screwed.