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Posted by Paracelsus (1517 posts) - - Show Bio

Recent events in the US-not just the election and re-election of Barack Obama as the first African American US President but films such as "Django Unchained" and "12 Years A Slave" have focused national and international attention on America's "peculiar institution" and more to the point, demands for reparations by the descendants of said slaves.

This is far from an academic talking point, a group of Caribbean nations are pressing former slaveowning nations such as France, Spain and the UK for reparations(before anybody asks, Obama is on record as OPPOSING the idea of reparations).

I admit that I was in favour of reparations at one stage but this is before I began to seriously think about it. Firstly the idea of asking Americans(or for that matter, Britons, Frenchmen or Spaniards) to pay up for a practise that ended long before they were even born) is of questionable ethics, secondly the amount needed to compensate the descendants of slaves in just America alone would run into trillions( and even AMERICA isn't that rich- a bankrupt US is not going to be much use to its black citizens or its citizens in general).

Secondly: why should only European societies be asked to fork over money-what about those Africans who colluded with the enslavement of their brethren or societies such the Arab or Muslim nations who maintained slavery long after white nations abolished it( Saudi Arabia for one only abolished slavery in 1962 and Mauretania in 1980)?

Thirdly(and linked to my first point) which white Americans should be asked to pay up(and who defines who is "white"? What about African Americans fair enough to"pass"?) What about those Americans whose ancestors arrived in the US long after the conclusion of the Civil War( say a Polish , Italian or Jewish American whose ancestors could NOT possibly have owned slaves in the South)- the Bible may say that a son should pay for the sins of his father, but what of his great-great-great grandfather, or of a daughter for that matter. .

So what do YOU think?

Terry

#1 Posted by nerdork (4035 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, I'm first generation Irish/Italian...so, i dont anybody anything.

#2 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8740 posts) - - Show Bio

Secondly: why should only European societies be asked to fork over money-what about those Africans who colluded with the enslavement of their brethren or societies such the Arab or Muslim nations who maintained slavery long after white nations abolished it( Saudi Arabia for one only abolished slavery in 1962 and Mauretania in 1980)?

Before I state my opinion I have to add to this segment , as a history major. What few people know about the slave trade is that the slave market was also supported by African rulers of the time who used the practice to increase their empires. Some of the trade was also directed towards Asia and the Indian Sub-Continent. At the height of the slave trade, everyone was involved and profiting from it, not just Arabs and Europeans. Even Africans were selling fellow Africans and making huge fortunes off this abhorrent practice.

With this said. Personally, I'd only state that I do not agree with paying money for such actions in the past. No matter how abhorrent they were. It's simply not a feasible enterprise economically as the scale is simply too large. From a moral standpoint I do not believe it right to punish people with taxation and fines for the crimes of their several generation removed ancestors. What needs to be done is focus on the now to abolish racism, ensure equality and work towards global development where poorer countries can grow to be equal participants in the world stage while acknowledging the crimes of the past.

#3 Posted by Saint_Wildcard (9278 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't this a Chappelle Show sketch?

#4 Posted by Crom-Cruach (8740 posts) - - Show Bio
#5 Posted by youmessinwithme (1181 posts) - - Show Bio

unless you find someone who actually was a slave they don't get reperations.

that's like me as a man of irish decent demanding money from the UK for what they did to the irish. in spite of the fact that i've never even met anyone directly effected by it.

No one who was a slave(who would be the ones who actually deserve the reparations) is still alive to get the reparations. No one who owned a slave is still around to pay the reparations(who would be the people who deserve to have their money taken away for what they did).

#6 Posted by ARMIV2 (8301 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really owe anyone reparations for anything other than my sins alone.

#7 Edited by nerdork (4035 posts) - - Show Bio

@crom_cruach: The fact that African rulers were making a profit is, by no means, little-known knowledge. But, i see your points. Well said.

This whole topic is far too tiresome for me to argue, especially with the potential Viners who would respond...so, my own opinion will be kept silent.

#8 Edited by JeanRalphio (1842 posts) - - Show Bio

Op still doesn't read comics?

#9 Posted by JakeN7 (10999 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerdork: Doesn't matter, you're white, you have to apologize.

Am I bitter because both sides of my family can be directly traced back to Colonial America, including founding fathers and a certain giant manor-owning Bohemian explorer, and I'm jealous of your guilt-free ancestry? Shut up! *sobs*

I'm sorry black people, I'm really, REALLY sorry!

Also, i'm typing on my phone so I can't embed (if someone wants to do it for me, I'd love them), but this video is hilariously relevant.

http://www.blackyouthproject.com/2014/02/video-snl-skit-28-reasons-tackles-black-history-month-slavery/

A good SNL sketch? Shocker I know.

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#10 Posted by cattlebattle (12590 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the US owes more to the Native American descendants than African American descendants, because, you know, genocide and all.

#11 Edited by youmessinwithme (1181 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle:

In Canada even if your only 1/16th native decent you pay no tax. for life.

this includes things that have a pre-paid duty tax, like cigarettes and Gasoline. they are actually cheaper than the listed price(since that includes the duty-paid and they are exempt from it).

#12 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32864 posts) - - Show Bio

The Irish always get shortchanged when it comes to slavery talk

#13 Edited by cattlebattle (12590 posts) - - Show Bio

@cattlebattle:

In Canada even if your only 1/16th native decent you pay no tax. for life.

this includes things that have a pre-paid duty tax, like cigarettes and Gasoline. they are actually cheaper than the listed price(since that includes the duty-paid and they are exempt from it).

Good for Canada. They are the kings of nice

The Irish always get shortchanged when it comes to slavery talk

Yeah, for real. The white race in general gets shortchanged when the discussion of slavery is brought up

#14 Posted by youmessinwithme (1181 posts) - - Show Bio

@youmessinwithme said:

@cattlebattle:

In Canada even if your only 1/16th native decent you pay no tax. for life.

this includes things that have a pre-paid duty tax, like cigarettes and Gasoline. they are actually cheaper than the listed price(since that includes the duty-paid and they are exempt from it).

Good for Canada. They are the kings of nice

@jonny_anonymous said:

The Irish always get shortchanged when it comes to slavery talk

Yeah, for real. The white race in general gets shortchanged when the discussion of slavery is brought up

I'm just stating the above as fact, I honestly think it's completely ridiculous that we do that. for the same reason why I think no one owes the african Americans reparations. (or the white people who are descended from slaves, or the Asians or the middle easterners)

#15 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9495 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the US owes more to the Native American descendants than African American descendants, because, you know, genocide and all.

Yah, really

The Irish always get shortchanged when it comes to slavery talk

I didn't know the Irish were enslaved?

#16 Posted by TheCheeseStabber (7887 posts) - - Show Bio

By this title I thought you were asking for reparations and I was going to supply with witty banter and silly photos

#17 Posted by Cable_Extreme (8664 posts) - - Show Bio

you know what isn't fair? I am white and in a rather ordinary part of the city (In Texas). Two of my friends got full ride scholarships because they were simply african american, but I am stuck taking out loans and coughing up more money than I have. We were in the same school, and their family even made more than mine. If we continue to say sorry for something that happened a long time ago, we will continue to isolate a certain race rather than truly reach equality.

#18 Posted by Cable_Extreme (8664 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: The Irish were treated horribly by the English, and were often enslaved.

#19 Posted by Farkam (4821 posts) - - Show Bio

you know what isn't fair? I am white and in a rather ordinary part of the city (In Texas). Two of my friends got full ride scholarships because they were simply african american, but I am stuck taking out loans and coughing up more money than I have. We were in the same school, and their family even made more than mine. If we continue to say sorry for something that happened a long time ago, we will continue to isolate a certain race rather than truly reach equality.

#21 Posted by mikethekiller (8326 posts) - - Show Bio

you know what isn't fair? I am white and in a rather ordinary part of the city (In Texas). Two of my friends got full ride scholarships because they were simply african american, but I am stuck taking out loans and coughing up more money than I have. We were in the same school, and their family even made more than mine. If we continue to say sorry for something that happened a long time ago, we will continue to isolate a certain race rather than truly reach equality.

Can anyone edit this to say conservative tears instead of white tears?

#22 Posted by JakeN7 (10999 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme: Did they have better grades? Were they athletic scholarships? I'm curious now.

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#23 Posted by JakeN7 (10999 posts) - - Show Bio

@youmessinwithme: That's ridiculous. I'd understand a quarter or even an eighth. But a sixteenth? That's ludicrous, and I've lived on Reservations here in Western Washington (I'm whiter than Magneto's hair, that's just where my mom and I happened to live at the time).

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#24 Edited by youmessinwithme (1181 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7 said:

@youmessinwithme: That's ridiculous. I'd understand a quarter or even an eighth. But a sixteenth? That's ludicrous, and I've lived on Reservations here in Western Washington (I'm whiter than Magneto's hair, that's just where my mom and I happened to live at the time).

oh this includes non-reserve natives, (like the reserves don't get a lot of support up here) but if you're a Native living of reserve you're set for life, No tax, cheaper Gas, ciggaretts and anything that has a duty on it.

and free post-secondary education. With reduced entry level (yeah university's free and you don't need the grades to get excepted.)

if you happen to be a white person living on a reserve you get No aid.

the Government up here is insane.

#25 Edited by Paracelsus (1517 posts) - - Show Bio

My my, I REALLY seem to have struck a nerve with my OP about reparations for slavery(see Wikipedia entry on the subject- "reparations for slavery")-it is worth noting that there is a hypothetical and actual precedent for such an action- Great Britain/the UK paid SLAVEOWNERS reparations for agreeing to free their slaves throught the Caribbean(including my own family's ancestors) as Haiti did France, the US paid Japanese Americans for their "relocation" during WWII even though the US Supreme Court upheld the Roosevelt Administration's policy(see "Korematsu v US")-true this was not formal enslavement but was an abhorrent action- and of course the Federal Republic of German paid out reparations to Holocaust survivors(mainly but not always Jewish).

Terry

#26 Posted by Farkam (4821 posts) - - Show Bio

whitey must die. blak power foreva :0

#27 Posted by Cable_Extreme (8664 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7: we were all on the footballteam, but they both are majoring in business.

#28 Posted by Wolverine08 (38893 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Edited by cattlebattle (12590 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm just stating the above as fact, I honestly think it's completely ridiculous that we do that. for the same reason why I think no one owes the african Americans reparations. (or the white people who are descended from slaves, or the Asians or the middle easterners)

Yeah, I can understand why you would think it was ridiculous. Still, I was just stating I would feel more inclined to feel for their plight than that of the African American slaves, in reality, only about 2% of US Americans owned slaves, most of the slaves that came to the Americas actually went to South American and Caribbean countries.The Native Americans on the other hand, were pretty savagely manipulated and violently forced out of the place they called home. It is realistically stupid to claim ownership over land, but, you shouldn't kill anyone over it, but, hence, that is the way of the world

#30 Edited by JakeN7 (10999 posts) - - Show Bio

@youmessinwithme: Wow, not gonna lie...kinda wish I was actually native and a Canadian citizen. Close, so close.

"Alright next in line for a spoon-fed life"

"Hi"

"You of Native American descent?"

"No, but I lived on a res' for a few years and went to school with Natives"

"Not quite, buddy. Are you Canadian?"

"Well, I'm from the Seattle area. It's just south of B.C. and..."

"Ah geez guy nice try."

*runs off and pouts*

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#31 Posted by Batman404 (72 posts) - - Show Bio

Here is how a reparation system should work. Anyone who wants them must first have documentation stating where their ancestor was from. Once this is verified they will be given $10k and a one way ticket back to that area and they are not allowed back.

Anyone here now did not suffer, their past relatives did. Now, most likely, you are living much better than any descendants you may have who are still in the home country. If you want to go back to that then nobody is stopping you and I am all for the government buying you a one way ticket.

#32 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6954 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm Chinese, does that mean that I should get reparation for my people building your railroads and digging your gold? I sure wouldn't mind some gold and perhaps a lifetime pass of free train rides.

#33 Edited by Wolverine08 (38893 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm Chinese, does that mean that I should get reparation for my people building your railroads and digging your gold? I sure wouldn't mind some gold and perhaps a lifetime pass of free train rides.

Mind sharing these benefits?

#34 Posted by marvel_boy2241 (2468 posts) - - Show Bio

This is freaking bogus. No one should get free money just for being born. Unless they have like a disability or something. Being black is not a disability.

#35 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6954 posts) - - Show Bio
#36 Posted by Wolverine08 (38893 posts) - - Show Bio
#37 Posted by JetiiMitra (8204 posts) - - Show Bio

Sh!t, if someone offers me money I'm not gonna say no.

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#38 Posted by Wolverine08 (38893 posts) - - Show Bio
@mitran said:

Sh!t, if someone offers me money I'm not gonna say no.

That's the spirit!

#39 Edited by Eisenfauste (7342 posts) - - Show Bio

Its all about that white guilt.

#41 Posted by EdBlank (492 posts) - - Show Bio

What happened to all the wealth generated over hundreds of years of slavery... Oh that's right, White people still have it. I knew a young lady from North Carolina. She inherited gobs of cash. I do believe she is a millionaire now. Works at an $8/hr job just out of boredom (works with kids). The money she inherited is blood money AND that's the issue with modern Americans. On the other hand, Black people have received quite a bit of help from the government over the past decades. SOHH all in all I tend to think it's a wash at this point.

#42 Posted by GhostRavage (8402 posts) - - Show Bio

Things happened because of stupid people... Not exactly because of the derivation of your pigment. Instead of reparations, all intolerant racists people should be rewarded with the same vomit they give away... Intolerance... Isolate them with their mindless stupidity and primitive way of seeing things. Showing that we care and that we actually want to make a change is WAY better than take away money from hard workers and other families to pay for crimes stupid people did in the past. Im from the caribbean and i would detest any Spanish, English, North American or French people to give away their money because some dumbf*ck came here and claimed a bunch of stuff as his centuries ago. This victimization is ridiculous.

Why not helping the countries in need because we care? Why would we need such an excuse to help those people when the real deal is the current people is not guilty of what their ancestors did? If you find a little black baby in the streets, would you help him because he's a little black baby, or because he's a baby?

No reparations for no one, as no one is completely "innocent". Fix and reinforce what is broken not because you feel guilty but because you don't want to leave it broken nor want it to break again. Actually, this reparation matter is so ridiculous we don't even take into account the bunch of animals and plants that have gone extinct because of us. Should we throw f*cking pennies at trees because we feel guilty? Or are we going to stop doing what we're doing and take preventive measures to stop making plants and animals go extinct?

I don't know if i got this thread right though. But if it's giving money for ancient guilt, im totally against it.

#43 Posted by youmessinwithme (1181 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7 said:

@youmessinwithme: Wow, not gonna lie...kinda wish I was actually native and a Canadian citizen. Close, so close.

"Alright next in line for a spoon-fed life"

"Hi"

"You of Native American descent?"

"No, but I lived on a res' for a few years and went to school with Natives"

"Not quite, buddy. Are you Canadian?"

"Well, I'm from the Seattle area. It's just south of B.C. and..."

"Ah geez guy nice try."

*runs off and pouts*

Yeah I wish I was of Native descent too... especially since I don't have to go through any trials or tribulations for it.

you just get as you said, the spoon fed life.

#44 Edited by JulieDC (876 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd say no for slavery but yes for stuff like Jim Crow, the Tuskegee Experiment and all those eugenics cases and state required sterilization of people, stuff like that from the 20th Century onwards. If reparations can't be given to the victim or nearest family, then maybe a charity fund or something. But those reparations should come from the offending states, not the entire country. Maybe if states were held accountable for the horrible things they allow to happen to its citizens, they'd be more wise about the kind of laws they pass in the present and future.

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#45 Edited by The Stegman (23163 posts) - - Show Bio

@mitran said:

Sh!t, if someone offers me money I'm not gonna say no.

This.

#46 Posted by HillbillyMorangie (927 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah then we can all demand reparations from Rome for all the slaves they took, then Egypt, Greece, England can sue Germany for their terrible acts of taking slaves back when they were Angles and Saxons and Jutes, Portugal then can get a big bill for staring the Atlantic slave trade.

Who do you sue then? Do Austria, Britain and France get let off for fronting the Abolition of Slavery? do Denmark and Norway for the first to actually ban the African slave trade?

Do countries like India get the biggest bill because bonded labour was part of their culture for so long?

What do we do about current slave trace from Poland and trafficking of children as sex slaves as is so much in the news today after the huge crime organisation was found in Sheffield? Surely they should be a priority over people who's great great grandparents were slaves?

What about all the african american Pimps in America that have women stuck in a life of drugs and prostitution, will they be compensation while at the same time dealing in the bonded labour of women, wow they will be laughing...

Reparations are great, but in the end we are pretty much all desendants of slaves, better to kick the idea into the long grass and focus on freeing all people from bonded labour and making sure those that control slavery today get the harshest of punishments a full life term of forced labour behind bars.

#47 Posted by Squares (4950 posts) - - Show Bio

Ummm, this sounds like a bit of an unrealistic goal.

#48 Posted by NorrinBoltagonPrime21 (5527 posts) - - Show Bio

No

#50 Posted by JakeN7 (10999 posts) - - Show Bio

@youmessinwithme: Yeah, that's an incredibly drastic contrast to the Natives who live here in the states. 0 handouts, reservations are small and shitty, as are the education systems. Only time being native and having a patch of dirt that was given back to you by the country that nearly committed genocide of your people is more profitable than being white, is during the times around July 4th and New Years (I'm so lucky to get awesome fireworks for dirt cheap from family friends). Everything on the local reservations is paid for by the profits made by the tribal casinos.

You'd really think the States should be the ones paying out their ass to help the Natives. Your Canadian Government has the right idea, but went waaayyy overboard with it. Lol.

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