Religion… What do you think?

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Mr_Clockwork91

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@mastermercenary: Yes I have. I asked myself if Muslims claim that Islam is a religion of peace, then why is there so much resistance from western socities and other religions? How come so many complications stem from Islamic groups? Well I did take into account that those responsible for the 9/11 attacks were of Islam faith, may or may not of been crazy extremists. As I dug deeper into what the Qur'an talks about, it is unfathomable that anyone believes this nonsense.

Ok, you read his book The End of Faith, so tell me what he talks about in his chapter, The Nature of Belief?

I said religion is destructive, I never said religious people are savages. Cool that Al-Khwarizmi discovered those things but without Alan Turning( a homosexual) we probably wouldn't have a computer or at least not be as advanced as it is now. Nor would the Allies have won WW2 without his help of cryptanalysis and therefore Hitler probably would have exterminated muslims after jews.

"Did he ever say that? I believe he said “My opinion is right and liable to be wrong. The opinions of others are mistaken and liable to be right.” In the minors points that stems of the different understanding of Sharia, and as I said, every Sunni scholars have a daleel (evidence). So basically they all are correct, which means that I as a Muslim can choose whatever correct understanding I want. Which also means that Islam is a religion of facilitation and simplification to let me choose whether correct understanding that match my needs."

Thats still basically what I just said. How convenient that you can pick whatever you want to fit your agenda, doesn't this defeat your whole argument with ISIS and Al-Qaeda being able to choose whatever they feel what is necessary to fit their agenda by reading the Qur'an literally? If Islam is a religion of facilitation and simplification to let one choose whether correct understanding that match their needs, then I can read it to choose my understandings to match my needs of why I think it's absurd.

The universe as far as I know was expanded from a singularity. But where that singularity came from? I don't know but does my not knowing hinge of the fact I don't believe in a theistic deity?

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frozen

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#15802 frozen  Moderator

@mastermercenary: The Qu'ran does have hateful texts; as does The Bible, people just cherry-pick when it comes to discussing them.

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johnfrank120

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MasterMercenary

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@mastermercenary: Yes I have. I asked myself if Muslims claim that Islam is a religion of peace, then why is there so much resistance from western socities and other religions? How come so many complications stem from Islamic groups? Well I did take into account that those responsible for the 9/11 attacks were of Islam faith, may or may not of been crazy extremists. As I dug deeper into what the Qur'an talks about, it is unfathomable that anyone believes this nonsense.

So let me see if I got what are you trying to say.. You read what you quoted about women rights "abuse" in Islam ,yet when I answered those points you gave no refutations about them. Then you say there is a problem in Islam and find it "unfathomable that anyone believes this nonsense" after you dug deeper into the Qur'an in response to what "western societies" and "other religions" think about Islam. Whoa mate, let me give you a valuable advice and fun fact.

The advice is you can't say that something makes no sense after you post points about that nonsense yet when they're explained and answered you go on the conquest to nonsense this and nonsense that because it's uhm.. NONSENSE and ABSURD.

The fact is that societies don't resist Islam but the governments do, simply because Islam cause them to lose their power over you ( the citizens ) and the religions resist Islam because they believe they're the right ones (no blame that's their belief ).

Ok, you read his book The End of Faith, so tell me what he talks about in his chapter, The Nature of Belief?

So you don't believe me ,right? let me tell you these things.. The Nature of Belief is the second chapter which is after Reason on Exile and before In the Shadow of God. It starts from page 50 and ends on page 80. It claims the religion beliefs is not any special from other "claims of knowledge". He also says that Freedom of Belief is a myth and making some metaphors and similes using dogs and cats ,and mentioning some examples including the Prophet Mohammad - peace be upon him -. This chapter discusses the idea of "Beliefs as Principles of Actions" were he concentrates about Islamic belief and terrorism. He also says about "The Necessity for logical Coherence" where he sees beliefs as a split personality disorder. This chapter also contains his comparison between Faith and Madness. And this chapter ends with a question "Why should we believe?" where he redefine the term of "belief" and saying faith may be a reason for doing good but it's not necessary or good motivation yet he says the most "monstrous crimes" (of course Stalin is excluded in this point because duh.. he is atheist) are inspired by unjustified belief.

Wanna more?

I said religion is destructive, I never said religious people are savages. Cool that Al-Khwarizmi discovered those things but without Alan Turning( a homosexual) we probably wouldn't have a computer or at least not be as advanced as it is now. Nor would the Allies have won WW2 without his help of cryptanalysis and therefore Hitler probably would have exterminated muslims after jews.

First of all, I am not comparing Muslim scientists with non-Muslim ones. The point is Islam has helped in renaissance and evolution of science, that's a thing you can't disagree with, which is a constructive side and you ignore that. But Terrorism (destructive side) got all your attention of course. Typical and expected.

"Did he ever say that? I believe he said “My opinion is right and liable to be wrong. The opinions of others are mistaken and liable to be right.” In the minors points that stems of the different understanding of Sharia, and as I said, every Sunni scholars have a daleel (evidence). So basically they all are correct, which means that I as a Muslim can choose whatever correct understanding I want. Which also means that Islam is a religion of facilitation and simplification to let me choose whether correct understanding that match my needs."

Thats still basically what I just said. How convenient that you can pick whatever you want to fit your agenda, doesn't this defeat your whole argument with ISIS and Al-Qaeda being able to choose whatever they feel what is necessary to fit their agenda by reading the Qur'an literally? If Islam is a religion of facilitation and simplification to let one choose whether correct understanding that match their needs, then I can read it to choose my understandings to match my needs of why I think it's absurd.

Back with cherry picking I see, I said these scholars have a different understandings in the MINOR points. I love how you connect Islam with terrorism every single time, but out of honesty do you thing killing innocent people consider a minor situation? To reach a correct understanding you need to be a scholar and have a daleel ( evidence or proof ). You tried to show me how Islam is "absurd" yet you failed every single time to show me a correct understanding of it. When I as a Muslim choose any CORRECT understanding I choose it from the work of the scholars who have a daleel. Try again , Be my guest.

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The universe as far as I know was expanded from a singularity. But where that singularity came from? I don't know but does my not knowing hinge of the fact I don't believe in a theistic deity?

I am not talking about expanding, I am talking about existence, in other words the Big Bang Theory. So please tell me who said it and when plus a brief explanation ( it doesn't have to contain a lot of scientific terms or to be long)

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MasterMercenary

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@frozen said:

@mastermercenary: The Qu'ran does have hateful texts; as does The Bible, people just cherry-pick when it comes to discussing them.

You just can say that and then fall back at the discussion time. If you don't want a discussion then keep your claims to yourself.

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chipj15

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I'm an atheist, well I'm a number 6 on dawkins faith scale, there's no evidence for God's existence just there's no evidence for the tooth fairy why should I believe in God but not the tooth fairy? I like that atheism lets me focus on my life right now and not worrying about where I'll go if there's an afterlife. if there's not an afterlife then lights out I mean do you remember anything before you were born? No, you don't because you didn't exist, I think its about the same when you die.

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King_Saturn

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Why do Muslims get so mad when people try to draw Muhammad ?

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lordraiden

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#15808  Edited By lordraiden

Why do Muslims get so mad when people try to draw Muhammad ?

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King_Saturn

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#15809  Edited By King_Saturn

@king_saturn said:

Why do Muslims get so mad when people try to draw Muhammad ?

No Caption Provided

Is it blasphemy to draw pictures of prophets ? I thought that was only a command against graven images against GOD... unless the Muslims believe Muhammad is GOD... which would probably be blasphemy in general.

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Christianity is a peaceful religion. Yes, God told his people to do violent things, go into towns and villages and kill everyone, but there are specific reasons for this and God does not view death the same way as humans do. God has done violent things as well. But these are one time things, not what the religion actually teaches.

Those are simply the actions of believers, not the religion as a whole. The religion promotes peace and non-violence, like 'turning the other cheek'.

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Mr_Clockwork91

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@mastermercenary: First off your answers were inadequate and I still see it as nonsense and absurd, if it were adequate, I wouldn't be having this discussion.

Second, then how is it that you view his book as an attack on Islam specifically? What he is trying to argue is that these extremists sects of Islam are only allowed by the moderates. Why is it we don't see moderate Muslims commit such atrocities? Because they have a reasonable human view of the world. There lies somewhere that they learn not to take their faith to such fundamentalists extremes. If a single person or group does some atrocities, they are branded as insane. Yet when a person or a group does in the name of their faith, they are deemed true believers. Sam even says most people of faith are perfectly sane. Of course he left out Stalin because his atrocities weren't done in the name of Atheism, but in the name of Communism. There were many atheist leaders in Russia before and after Stalin who expressed religious freedom in the country, like Mikhail Gorbachev.

Third, I agree with you that Islam has made contributions to mankind but it was done in vain if the people that have done good as well for mankind do no follow the tenets of Islam, hence Alan Turning who was a homosexual which is against Islam.

Do I think killing innocent people is a minor situation? No, what kind of question is that. And I'm cherry picking, please tell me more about how you can use whatever understanding of the Qur'an to fit your agenda? Want to know why I always connect Islam with terrorism, well lets see the first time I ever heard about Islam was when the WTC towers were being destroyed, bombings in London, grew up most of my life with the US engaged with Islamic terrorists, recently shootings happening in Canada, Sydney hostages. I guess perception is reality.

I'm not understanding your question. The big bang theory explains that universe expanded(inflation) from a infinitely dense, incredibly hot singularity. The theory was introduced in 1927 by Georges Lemaitre, a catholic priest.

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dshipp17

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#15812  Edited By dshipp17

@jayc1324 said:

Christianity is a peaceful religion. Yes, God told his people to do violent things, go into towns and villages and kill everyone, but there are specific reasons for this and God does not view death the same way as humans do. God has done violent things as well. But these are one time things, not what the religion actually teaches.

Those are simply the actions of believers, not the religion as a whole. The religion promotes peace and non-violence, like 'turning the other cheek'.

You are correct; this is well stated; and the examples that are pointed out above has more to do with Judaism than Christianity, in terms of God commanding the Jewish people to do violent things in the midst of a war; the Christian part of the Bible tells us to do things like turn the other cheek. God had His reasons for telling the Jews to win the war that can only be separate from the reasons that a human would perceive winning a war or committing a violent act (e.g. which is generally anger, hate, or a hollow sense of supremacy and arrogance).

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lordraiden

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#15813  Edited By lordraiden

@lordraiden said:

Would it be fair to say that islam has one of the biggest womens/human rights issues?

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I found this response (referring to the youtube video itself, not you specifically, just to be clear) to fall short under the weight of seriousness it lacks compared to the actuall suffering felt by those in The Honour Diaries and their effort to tell their experience not in a hateful but truthful way with the video you posted lacking any serious depth when it uses labels like "islamaphobes" when at least I watched it, felt nothing of the sort! Not sure if speaking the truth is considered islamaphobic? I found two chirpy young Islamic scholarly girls downplaying the horrible events some of these women went through and experienced to be disheartening, to be honest!

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MasterMercenary

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@mr_clockwork91 said:

@mastermercenary: First off your answers were inadequate and I still see it as nonsense and absurd, if it were adequate, I wouldn't be having this discussion.

What?? You found my answers "inadequate" ,yet you continued our debate without even saying so. Bro, listen to me, when you debate and suddenly left a point I answered, It doesn't mean the answer wasn't inadequate, but on the contrary, It means that I have delivered the message. Plain and Simple.

Second, then how is it that you view his book as an attack on Islam specifically? What he is trying to argue is that these extremists sects of Islam are only allowed by the moderates. Why is it we don't see moderate Muslims commit such atrocities? Because they have a reasonable human view of the world. There lies somewhere that they learn not to take their faith to such fundamentalists extremes. If a single person or group does some atrocities, they are branded as insane. Yet when a person or a group does in the name of their faith, they are deemed true believers. Sam even says most people of faith are perfectly sane. Of course he left out Stalin because his atrocities weren't done in the name of Atheism, but in the name of Communism. There were many atheist leaders in Russia before and after Stalin who expressed religious freedom in the country, like Mikhail Gorbachev.

Don't you see that we are running in a circle? First of all, STALIN was a RELIGION-SUPPRESSOR !!!! Which means he was ANTI-THEIST and do you know what anti-theists are? THEY ARE THOSE WHO TAKE THEIR BELIEF ( in this case that religion is destructive etc..) TO SUCH FUNDAMENTALIST EXTREMES!! In other words they are militant/fundamental/extremist/radical Atheists. Yet, you don't want the people to look at you as Stalin. And no, "moderate" Muslims are those who understand their religion i.e. Islam where those "extremists" don't. Also, about the bold statements. Stalin should be with them because he believed that a world without religion is a better world, he is deemed a true believer of what he thinks. Plus, the middle east was a great place in the past, so your argument about Stalin and communism is invalid.

Third, I agree with you that Islam has made contributions to mankind but it was done in vain if the people that have done good as well for mankind do no follow the tenets of Islam, hence Alan Turning who was a homosexual which is against Islam.

OK then why you're saying that religion is destructive while it has made contributions in science? I love the way that you mentioning Alan Turing who was a homosexual to know that that Islam condemn homosexual ACTS, plus, homosexuality was criminalized in the UK at his era.

Do I think killing innocent people is a minor situation? No, what kind of question is that. And I'm cherry picking, please tell me more about how you can use whatever understanding of the Qur'an to fit your agenda? Want to know why I always connect Islam with terrorism, well lets see the first time I ever heard about Islam was when the WTC towers were being destroyed, bombings in London, grew up most of my life with the US engaged with Islamic terrorists, recently shootings happening in Canada, Sydney hostages. I guess perception is reality.

Let me give you an example, When the Prophet peace and blessing upon him returned from the battle of Al-Ahzab (The confederates), he said to us, "None should offer the 'Asr prayer but at Bani Quraiza." The 'Asr prayer became due for some of them on the way. Some of them decided not to offer the Salat but at Bani Quraiza while others decided to offer the Salat on the spot and said that the intention of the Prophet peace be upon him was not what the former party had understood. And when that was told to the Prophet peace be upon him he did not blame anyone of them. [Bukhari] and [Muslim]. From this authentic Hadith you can see that both of those groups have a daleel for what have they done. And you can't simply say someone is wrong. BUT IN THE MINOR POINTS, where there is no clear view on it from the Qur'an and Sunnah. What terrorists are doing, like killing innocent people for example is clearly forbidden in the Noble Qur'an. "whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely." [5:32].

I don't blame you about those events ,but for someone who "dug deeper" in Islam , you would know if they are right or wrong.

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I'm not understanding your question. The big bang theory explains that universe expanded(inflation) from a infinitely dense, incredibly hot singularity. The theory was introduced in 1927 by Georges Lemaitre, a catholic priest.

What if I told you that the big bang is already mentioned in the Qur'an 1400 years ago?

أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا

"Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, and We separated them" [21:30]

Who could mention that 1400 years ago?

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MasterMercenary

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@mastermercenary said:

@lordraiden said:

Would it be fair to say that islam has one of the biggest womens/human rights issues?

Loading Video...

Loading Video...

I found this response (referring to the youtube video itself, not you specifically, just to be clear) to fall short under the weight of seriousness it lacks compared to the actuall suffering felt by those in The Honour Diaries and their effort to tell their experience not in a hateful but truthful way with the video you posted lacking any serious depth when it uses labels like "islamaphobes" when at least I watched it, felt nothing of the sort! Not sure if speaking the truth is considered islamaphobic? I found two chirpy young Islamic scholarly girls downplaying the horrible events some of these women went through and experienced to be disheartening, to be honest!

First, you can't just post a video and ask me to answer it, I post a review of it. You have any accuses please write them down and I'll write my answers too.

Ok lets assume they are truthful, do you know how many films they made about Islam? it unbelievable!!! They dedicated their lives just to make these films why is not only about the women but Islam as a whole. I started to believe that they have agenda. Second point that there is more the 1.7 billion Muslims. Why should they concentrate on those who have a sad and painful life excluding the others? Doesn't make any sense!!!

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nick_hero22

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Still not seeing how arguing about scriptures is suppose to refute a world-view that isn't necessarily derived from scripture?

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lordraiden

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First, you can't just post a video and ask me to answer it, I post a review of it. You have any accuses please write them down and I'll write my answers too.

Ok lets assume they are truthful, do you know how many films they made about Islam? it unbelievable!!! They dedicated their lives just to make these films why is not only about the women but Islam as a whole. I started to believe that they have agenda. Second point that there is more the 1.7 billion Muslims. Why should they concentrate on those who have a sad and painful life excluding the others? Doesn't make any sense!!!

I'm honestly not sure what your talking about? I don't recall asking you to answer any video I posted! I posted a video regarding islam and human/woman rights and your refutation was the video you posted to which I responded to. No need to get defensive, I'm no having a go at you.

As to your other question, "why should they concentrate on those who have a sad and painful life", who said they are just concentrating on them? Are their voices and experiences not allowed to be heard?? are they not valid, irrespective if it's a majority or minority?? Do they have to be brushed aside with names like islamophobic simply because of what they experienced?? Just saying.

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MasterMercenary

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@lordraiden said:

@mastermercenary said:

First, you can't just post a video and ask me to answer it, I post a review of it. You have any accuses please write them down and I'll write my answers too.

Ok lets assume they are truthful, do you know how many films they made about Islam? it unbelievable!!! They dedicated their lives just to make these films why is not only about the women but Islam as a whole. I started to believe that they have agenda. Second point that there is more the 1.7 billion Muslims. Why should they concentrate on those who have a sad and painful life excluding the others? Doesn't make any sense!!!

I'm honestly not sure what your talking about? I don't recall asking you to answer any video I posted! I posted a video regarding islam and human/woman rights and your refutation was the video you posted to which I responded to. No need to get defensive, I'm no having a go at you.

As to your other question, "why should they concentrate on those who have a sad and painful life", who said they are just concentrating on them? Are their voices and experiences not allowed to be heard?? are they not valid, irrespective if it's a majority or minority?? Do they have to be brushed aside with names like islamophobic simply because of what they experienced?? Just saying.

I am not trying to attack you and I know you kindly posted the video and that's why I replied with a video . The video you posted wasn't toward me but as a Muslim I answered it with a video. But yeah I get you I seemed to be offensive and I apologize!!

Nah, that's not the first of time Ayaan Hirsi Ali does that.. And I am not saying that they shouldn't be heard, it's their right with their experience. That being said, they can not generalize theirs i.e. their experience as it is the experience of all the Muslims on the face of the Earth. I've seen tons of Ayaan H. Ali to know what kind of person she is. Making any problem that Muslims face is because of Islam. But everyone is entitled to their opinions.

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lordraiden

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@lordraiden said:

@mastermercenary said:

First, you can't just post a video and ask me to answer it, I post a review of it. You have any accuses please write them down and I'll write my answers too.

Ok lets assume they are truthful, do you know how many films they made about Islam? it unbelievable!!! They dedicated their lives just to make these films why is not only about the women but Islam as a whole. I started to believe that they have agenda. Second point that there is more the 1.7 billion Muslims. Why should they concentrate on those who have a sad and painful life excluding the others? Doesn't make any sense!!!

I'm honestly not sure what your talking about? I don't recall asking you to answer any video I posted! I posted a video regarding islam and human/woman rights and your refutation was the video you posted to which I responded to. No need to get defensive, I'm no having a go at you.

As to your other question, "why should they concentrate on those who have a sad and painful life", who said they are just concentrating on them? Are their voices and experiences not allowed to be heard?? are they not valid, irrespective if it's a majority or minority?? Do they have to be brushed aside with names like islamophobic simply because of what they experienced?? Just saying.

I am not trying to attack you and I know you kindly posted the video and that's why I replied with a video . The video you posted wasn't toward me but as a Muslim I answered it with a video. But yeah I get you I seemed to be offensive and I apologize!!

Nah, that's not the first of time Ayaan Hirsi Ali does that.. And I am not saying that they shouldn't be heard, it's their right with their experience. That being said, they can not generalize theirs i.e. their experience as it is the experience of all the Muslims on the face of the Earth. I've seen tons of Ayaan H. Ali to know what kind of person she is. Making any problem that Muslims face is because of Islam. But everyone is entitled to their opinions.

No worries and all good to your first sentence. I'll research her some more to get a little more insight on her, thanks for your insight, also.

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frozen

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#15820 frozen  Moderator

Why do Muslims get so mad when people try to draw Muhammad ?

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Mr_Clockwork91

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@mastermercenary: Ok once again not all atheists are anti-theists, Stalin did that in the name of COMMUNISM. Those fundamentalists do it in the name of ISLAM. You see the difference?

I don't see how the scripture talks about the big bang.

I'm going to end our debate, I'm just getting overloaded with other debates. Plus your replies are not showing up in my feed/

May I ask one thing though? For future reference, may I use you for help on translating on the Qur'an if I have any questions?

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#15822 frozen  Moderator

What's wrong with being an Antitheist?

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King_Saturn

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@frozen said:

@king_saturn said:

Why do Muslims get so mad when people try to draw Muhammad ?

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I just don't understand the logic behind it... I mean if Muhammad is a prophet or messenger of Allah... they why does it matter who draws images of him ? Is Muhammad GOD ? Is Muhammad still alive ? Why the heck do these people get so mad about drawings about this dead prophet ?

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King_Saturn

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#15825  Edited By King_Saturn

@sophia89 said:

@king_saturn said:

Why do Muslims get so mad when people try to draw Muhammad ?

They get mad when anyone draws a prophet,in Muslim countries no one draws a prophet,for example

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This is Joseph,yet his body&voice is concealed.

Now since Muhammad is their prophet&before he died he asked never to be drawn(he feared he might be worshiped) Muslims tend to honor that request and refuse to draw him or for someone to draw him. So drawing him in a funny cartoon really annoys them.

Okay, but why do they get mad at people drawing prophets ?

And now you answer, so because Muhammad asked them not to draw himself they don't want any images drawn of Muhammad. Okay, but even if this request is not honored... does that warrant the level of annoyance many Muslims have when they go out and attack other people for drawing Muhammad ?

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#15826 frozen  Moderator

@king_saturn: @sophia89: Islam, like other religions is thousands of years old. Though there may be many Muslims, this is the 21st Century so there will be people who do not take scripture such as Mohammad flying to The Moon a winged horse seriously.

Religion does not deserve a free-pass when it comes to criticism.

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King_Saturn

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@sophia89 said:

@king_saturn said:

@sophia89 said:

@king_saturn said:

Why do Muslims get so mad when people try to draw Muhammad ?

They get mad when anyone draws a prophet,in Muslim countries no one draws a prophet,for example

This is Joseph,yet his body&voice is concealed.

Now since Muhammad is their prophet&before he died he asked never to be drawn(he feared he might be worshiped) Muslims tend to honor that request and refuse to draw him or for someone to draw him. So drawing him in a funny cartoon really annoys them.

Okay, but why do they get mad at people drawing prophets ?

And now you answer, so because Muhammad asked them not to draw himself they don't want any images drawn of Muhammad. Okay, but even if this request is not honored... does that warrant the level of annoyance many Muslims have when they go out and attack other people for drawing Muhammad ?

Because they believe Prophets should be respected,that prophets are chosen by GOD therefore they are above normal humans. So when a cartoonist draws him in a funny image it becomes a great sin for them.

Does it warrant all the riots+protests+threats Muslims do? Absolutely not.

Muhammad once met an elderly woman(she was an atheist)carrying heavy bags,he offered to give her a lift to her home,along the way she mentions that their is a new religion(Islam) and she started insulting it&insulting it's prophet,Muhammad kept his calm through the whole way and was very nice to her the whole way. He didn't get angry or have a violent reaction or anything.

There are many times where he was attacked yet he never retaliated,he was a very peaceful.

The Muslims that act that way(Riot)are ignorant bunch,while they seem many(in the millions),you have to remember that Muslims are in the billions. Obviously in any large group there will be the ignorant few.

1. Who is to say that the person who is drawing Muhammad has no respect for him ? People draw cartoon images of Barack Obama and George Washington that does not mean they lack respect for them.

2. Good

3. That's Good... but I was speaking specifically about the people who get mad about these drawings of Muhammad. Even if Muhammad is their prophet, to be so upset about some drawings of him seems to be over the top. People have been drawing images of a White Jesus for years and have not been so uprooted about it that it would lead to violence.

4. Okay, but the problem is Millions is still a lot of people... even if there are over 1 Billion Muslims... if there are 50 Million of them that are Extremists, you are still talking about a lot of people who can do harm. That's the problem.

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@sophia89 said:

@king_saturn said:

@sophia89 said:

@king_saturn said:

@sophia89 said:

@king_saturn said:

Why do Muslims get so mad when people try to draw Muhammad ?

They get mad when anyone draws a prophet,in Muslim countries no one draws a prophet,for example

This is Joseph,yet his body&voice is concealed.

Now since Muhammad is their prophet&before he died he asked never to be drawn(he feared he might be worshiped) Muslims tend to honor that request and refuse to draw him or for someone to draw him. So drawing him in a funny cartoon really annoys them.

Okay, but why do they get mad at people drawing prophets ?

And now you answer, so because Muhammad asked them not to draw himself they don't want any images drawn of Muhammad. Okay, but even if this request is not honored... does that warrant the level of annoyance many Muslims have when they go out and attack other people for drawing Muhammad ?

Because they believe Prophets should be respected,that prophets are chosen by GOD therefore they are above normal humans. So when a cartoonist draws him in a funny image it becomes a great sin for them.

Does it warrant all the riots+protests+threats Muslims do? Absolutely not.

Muhammad once met an elderly woman(she was an atheist)carrying heavy bags,he offered to give her a lift to her home,along the way she mentions that their is a new religion(Islam) and she started insulting it&insulting it's prophet,Muhammad kept his calm through the whole way and was very nice to her the whole way. He didn't get angry or have a violent reaction or anything.

There are many times where he was attacked yet he never retaliated,he was a very peaceful.

The Muslims that act that way(Riot)are ignorant bunch,while they seem many(in the millions),you have to remember that Muslims are in the billions. Obviously in any large group there will be the ignorant few.

1. Who is to say that the person who is drawing Muhammad has no respect for him ? People draw cartoon images of Barack Obama and George Washington that does not mean they lack respect for them.

Who ever drew him with respect?

The artist in Denmark drew him with a bomb. That is not very respectful.

That is funny,however it's not very respectful
That is funny,however it's not very respectful

2. Good

3. That's Good... but I was speaking specifically about the people who get mad about these drawings of Muhammad. Even if Muhammad is their prophet, to be so upset about some drawings of him seems to be over the top. People have been drawing images of a White Jesus for years and have not been so uprooted about it that it would lead to violence.

Most Images of Jesus are for worshiping purposes. Muslims still get angry when someone draws Jesus in an insultive manner,for example family guy's depiction of Jesus would never be allowed in the middle east.

They however don't riot about it because they don't know about it,or because they can't riot about a christian man drawing jesus to christian crowds.

4. Okay, but the problem is Millions is still a lot of people... even if there are over 1 Billion Muslims... if there are 50 Million of them that are Extremists, you are still talking about a lot of people who can do harm. That's the problem.

That is false propaganda.

Most of the terrorists are not acting for Islam,they are acting out of vengeance.

Imagine if you well that you are sitting in your house eating breakfast with your family when a bomb lands killing all of them+destroying your house&and your possessions+destroying your work place. You're gonna be pissed,now imagine someone comes to you tells you he can give you the chance to avenge them.

Don't believe the USA can do this,look at how many civilians died in Afghanistan&Iraq since the liberation of these countries began.

One of the worst propaganda is that 9/11 was because Muslims hated our freedom,wrong,Bin laden before the first gulf war told the USA that he would invade Iraq for them and get rid of Saddam for a fee of course,when the USA refused his offer he dropped his ties with the USA and began revenge for not giving him money.

There are a lot of Muslims in the world,yes quite the number of them act violently but then again so do Christians.

Most of the Muslim nations are run by dictators who lie to their people into thinking that the USA&Israel are the greatest threat to Earth,and that if their ruler left they would invade them immediately,and before you say that is Muslim mentality North Korea is the same.

1. I did... I drew a picture of Mohammad as a Prime Muhammad Ali. Can't get no more respect than that.

3. But they are inaccurate images that are blasphemous. No where in the Bible is Jesus described as a White Man with Red Hair and Blue Eyes as depicted by many of these images. I mean Geographically it does not make sense for Jesus to have that appearance... Yet, you don't see Christians looking to behead the Painters of these Images.

4. Is it now ? So all of these Terrorists or Extremists are acting out of Revenge ? I find that hard to believe... I mean I look at Christianity and see that they had all kinds of members of the faith committing horrible acts... from the Ku Klux Klan to the Catholic Church and so forth. I find it hard to believe that all the Extremists in the Middle East are not acting on behalf of their Muslim Faith. It's millions of them too with the Extremists.

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#15833  Edited By dshipp17

@king_saturn said:

@sophia89 said:

@king_saturn said:

@sophia89 said:

@king_saturn said:

@sophia89 said:

@king_saturn said:

Why do Muslims get so mad when people try to draw Muhammad ?

They get mad when anyone draws a prophet,in Muslim countries no one draws a prophet,for example

This is Joseph,yet his body&voice is concealed.

Now since Muhammad is their prophet&before he died he asked never to be drawn(he feared he might be worshiped) Muslims tend to honor that request and refuse to draw him or for someone to draw him. So drawing him in a funny cartoon really annoys them.

Okay, but why do they get mad at people drawing prophets ?

And now you answer, so because Muhammad asked them not to draw himself they don't want any images drawn of Muhammad. Okay, but even if this request is not honored... does that warrant the level of annoyance many Muslims have when they go out and attack other people for drawing Muhammad ?

Because they believe Prophets should be respected,that prophets are chosen by GOD therefore they are above normal humans. So when a cartoonist draws him in a funny image it becomes a great sin for them.

Does it warrant all the riots+protests+threats Muslims do? Absolutely not.

Muhammad once met an elderly woman(she was an atheist)carrying heavy bags,he offered to give her a lift to her home,along the way she mentions that their is a new religion(Islam) and she started insulting it&insulting it's prophet,Muhammad kept his calm through the whole way and was very nice to her the whole way. He didn't get angry or have a violent reaction or anything.

There are many times where he was attacked yet he never retaliated,he was a very peaceful.

The Muslims that act that way(Riot)are ignorant bunch,while they seem many(in the millions),you have to remember that Muslims are in the billions. Obviously in any large group there will be the ignorant few.

1. Who is to say that the person who is drawing Muhammad has no respect for him ? People draw cartoon images of Barack Obama and George Washington that does not mean they lack respect for them.

Who ever drew him with respect?

The artist in Denmark drew him with a bomb. That is not very respectful.

That is funny,however it's not very respectful
That is funny,however it's not very respectful

2. Good

3. That's Good... but I was speaking specifically about the people who get mad about these drawings of Muhammad. Even if Muhammad is their prophet, to be so upset about some drawings of him seems to be over the top. People have been drawing images of a White Jesus for years and have not been so uprooted about it that it would lead to violence.

Most Images of Jesus are for worshiping purposes. Muslims still get angry when someone draws Jesus in an insultive manner,for example family guy's depiction of Jesus would never be allowed in the middle east.

They however don't riot about it because they don't know about it,or because they can't riot about a christian man drawing jesus to christian crowds.

4. Okay, but the problem is Millions is still a lot of people... even if there are over 1 Billion Muslims... if there are 50 Million of them that are Extremists, you are still talking about a lot of people who can do harm. That's the problem.

That is false propaganda.

Most of the terrorists are not acting for Islam,they are acting out of vengeance.

Imagine if you well that you are sitting in your house eating breakfast with your family when a bomb lands killing all of them+destroying your house&and your possessions+destroying your work place. You're gonna be pissed,now imagine someone comes to you tells you he can give you the chance to avenge them.

Don't believe the USA can do this,look at how many civilians died in Afghanistan&Iraq since the liberation of these countries began.

One of the worst propaganda is that 9/11 was because Muslims hated our freedom,wrong,Bin laden before the first gulf war told the USA that he would invade Iraq for them and get rid of Saddam for a fee of course,when the USA refused his offer he dropped his ties with the USA and began revenge for not giving him money.

There are a lot of Muslims in the world,yes quite the number of them act violently but then again so do Christians.

Most of the Muslim nations are run by dictators who lie to their people into thinking that the USA&Israel are the greatest threat to Earth,and that if their ruler left they would invade them immediately,and before you say that is Muslim mentality North Korea is the same.

1. I did... I drew a picture of Mohammad as a Prime Muhammad Ali. Can't get no more respect than that.

3. But they are inaccurate images that are blasphemous. No where in the Bible is Jesus described as a White Man with Red Hair and Blue Eyes as depicted by many of these images. I mean Geographically it does not make sense for Jesus to have that appearance... Yet, you don't see Christians looking to behead the Painters of these Images.

4. Is it now ? So all of these Terrorists or Extremists are acting out of Revenge ? I find that hard to believe... I mean I look at Christianity and see that they had all kinds of members of the faith committing horrible acts... from the Ku Klux Klan to the Catholic Church and so forth. I find it hard to believe that all the Extremists in the Middle East are not acting on behalf of their Muslim Faith. It's millions of them too with the Extremists.

I'm not sure what you're seeing, but there are not "all kinds of members of the faith" committing horrible acts in an organized fashion like the example your point out about the Muslims; you're basically trying to take isolated examples and extrapolating a false attack against the Christian faith; the KKK does not have the numbers to even amount to a fringe group in Christianity; the KKK is basically just labeling themselves as Christian, but nothing supports their activities; the Crusades was more of an action by the Roman Empire than it was the Catholic Church; neither of these examples really resemble a group like ISIS, as very little of their activities can be taken from passages in the Bible for broad support. The only examples you can point out are basically people who committed horrible acts that simply call themselves Christians, but they are not confirming to any formal, recognized Christians doctrines, when they go about their deeds; over the past 20 to 25 years, all religions acts of violence have been committed by people who identify as Muslim; they are also more organized, versus random, disorganized people calling themselves Christians; although occurring hundreds of years ago, organized Christian acts of violence occurred after many years of persecution from all groups surrounding them, but the organized effort was lead by the Roman or British Empires; the Roman Empire had a violent organized history; in modern times (e.g. at least the past 300 years), Christians are the victims of organized persecutions, not the perpetrators of organized violence; additionally, all examples of organized violence finds no place in organized Christianity (e.g. the New Testament of the Bible, which is basically the Christian aspects of the Bible).

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#15836  Edited By King_Saturn

@sophia89 said:

@king_saturn said:

Because they believe Prophets should be respected,that prophets are chosen by GOD therefore they are above normal humans. So when a cartoonist draws him in a funny image it becomes a great sin for them.

Does it warrant all the riots+protests+threats Muslims do? Absolutely not.

Muhammad once met an elderly woman(she was an atheist)carrying heavy bags,he offered to give her a lift to her home,along the way she mentions that their is a new religion(Islam) and she started insulting it&insulting it's prophet,Muhammad kept his calm through the whole way and was very nice to her the whole way. He didn't get angry or have a violent reaction or anything.

There are many times where he was attacked yet he never retaliated,he was a very peaceful.

The Muslims that act that way(Riot)are ignorant bunch,while they seem many(in the millions),you have to remember that Muslims are in the billions. Obviously in any large group there will be the ignorant few.

1. Who is to say that the person who is drawing Muhammad has no respect for him ? People draw cartoon images of Barack Obama and George Washington that does not mean they lack respect for them.

Who ever drew him with respect?

The artist in Denmark drew him with a bomb. That is not very respectful.

That is funny,however it's not very respectful
That is funny,however it's not very respectful

2. Good

3. That's Good... but I was speaking specifically about the people who get mad about these drawings of Muhammad. Even if Muhammad is their prophet, to be so upset about some drawings of him seems to be over the top. People have been drawing images of a White Jesus for years and have not been so uprooted about it that it would lead to violence.

Most Images of Jesus are for worshiping purposes. Muslims still get angry when someone draws Jesus in an insultive manner,for example family guy's depiction of Jesus would never be allowed in the middle east.

They however don't riot about it because they don't know about it,or because they can't riot about a christian man drawing jesus to christian crowds.

4. Okay, but the problem is Millions is still a lot of people... even if there are over 1 Billion Muslims... if there are 50 Million of them that are Extremists, you are still talking about a lot of people who can do harm. That's the problem.

That is false propaganda.

Most of the terrorists are not acting for Islam,they are acting out of vengeance.

Imagine if you well that you are sitting in your house eating breakfast with your family when a bomb lands killing all of them+destroying your house&and your possessions+destroying your work place. You're gonna be pissed,now imagine someone comes to you tells you he can give you the chance to avenge them.

Don't believe the USA can do this,look at how many civilians died in Afghanistan&Iraq since the liberation of these countries began.

One of the worst propaganda is that 9/11 was because Muslims hated our freedom,wrong,Bin laden before the first gulf war told the USA that he would invade Iraq for them and get rid of Saddam for a fee of course,when the USA refused his offer he dropped his ties with the USA and began revenge for not giving him money.

There are a lot of Muslims in the world,yes quite the number of them act violently but then again so do Christians.

Most of the Muslim nations are run by dictators who lie to their people into thinking that the USA&Israel are the greatest threat to Earth,and that if their ruler left they would invade them immediately,and before you say that is Muslim mentality North Korea is the same.

1. I did... I drew a picture of Mohammad as a Prime Muhammad Ali. Can't get no more respect than that.

3. But they are inaccurate images that are blasphemous. No where in the Bible is Jesus described as a White Man with Red Hair and Blue Eyes as depicted by many of these images. I mean Geographically it does not make sense for Jesus to have that appearance... Yet, you don't see Christians looking to behead the Painters of these Images.

4. Is it now ? So all of these Terrorists or Extremists are acting out of Revenge ? I find that hard to believe... I mean I look at Christianity and see that they had all kinds of members of the faith committing horrible acts... from the Ku Klux Klan to the Catholic Church and so forth. I find it hard to believe that all the Extremists in the Middle East are not acting on behalf of their Muslim Faith. It's millions of them too with the Extremists.

  1. Did Muslims riot world wide about it? There are actual drawings of him that caused no riots. Here is one and here is another. Drawing him in a way that makes fun of him is what pisses them off.
  2. 3) Muslims never drew Jesus,Christians did,if Christians believe that is his true image then Muslims can't call them wrong since they never seen him before. And they can't demand that every picture of Jesus be taken down.
  3. 4) Again look at how many civilians died just in Iraq,look at all the Muslims detained&tortured with no crimes,etc.

There are a few who are extremists,but those are a few. In Egypt a country that wasn't attacked by the USA,when extremists tried to take control of Egypt and install shira law millions upon millions took to the street and demanded them to leave.

1. I didn't show that many Muslims... so it's hard to say how they would react on a larger scale. Even so, if people was drawing Muhammad to make fun of him... should it piss them off to such extremes ? I mean don't they have the tolerance to take insults and not have to retaliate with violence ?

3. I know that... I was talking about how Christians drew Jesus in a way that would be in direct confrontation with the word of GOD's teachings about his appearance. The point was not that Muslims should be pissed about it but that Christians who have seen these images that are falsely representing the Messiah don't get so bent out of shape to attack others over these inaccurate images... this is to contrast the nature of how Muslims react when their Messenger of Allah is drawn out of context and they react.

4. I get that... but there are still a lot of violent Muslims too.

Considering that there are over 1 billion Muslims on the earth... a few Muslims can still equal millions of crazy people wanting to attack and harm others. As percentage wise 2 million of 1 billion is still a small fraction...

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@sophia89 said:

@sophia89 said:

@looby_loo said:

A church confirmed footage of a real exorcism? I only saw a woman screaming through the key hole it was filmed with giggling in the background from the person filming. Unless I missed something? I did double check to make sure this wasn't the onion news!

http://bloody-disgusting.com/videos/3326109/heres-real-footage-modern-exorcism/

Before I click on it,I'll warn you that this better not be porn.

Clicked on it,it wasn't porn :(

Why would you think that it's porn??

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A pastor gives a year of his life taking a stroll on the other side of theism.........and adds an A to his outlook! Some of the hate filled remarks by the so called Christians can be quite derogatory and disgusting as far as selfishness is concerned. It's amazing how much hate can come from a religion of love and peace??

“This is nothing more than rebellion, and at the expense of many of the rest of us. What selfishness and irresponsibility, no matter what the personal struggle.

You need the Christian religion (and yes, Christianity is a religion, the true religion) to worship God, and God must be worshiped.

Those who have entered into a genuine relationship with Christ Jesus are the most loving people.”

Wow, the amount of insecurity and fear in some of these people, in not being able to cope with other people not feeling or believing in what they believe?? Staggering!!

Read more: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/12/29/how-christians-reacted-after-ex-pastor-ryan-bell-all-but-confirmed-hes-an-atheist/#ixzz3NLC8eUL0

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2014/12/29/how-christians-reacted-after-ex-pastor-ryan-bell-all-but-confirmed-hes-an-atheist/

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#15844  Edited By dshipp17

@sophia89 said:

@dshipp17 said:

I'm not sure what you're seeing, but there are not "all kinds of members of the faith" committing horrible acts in an organized fashion like the example your point out about the Muslims; you're basically trying to take isolated examples and extrapolating a false attack against the Christian faith; the KKK does not have the numbers to even amount to a fringe group in Christianity; the KKK is basically just labeling themselves as Christian, but nothing supports their activities; the Crusades was more of an action by the Roman Empire than it was the Catholic Church; neither of these examples really resemble a group like ISIS, as very little of their activities can be taken from passages in the Bible for broad support. The only examples you can point out are basically people who committed horrible acts that simply call themselves Christians, but they are not confirming to any formal, recognized Christians doctrines, when they go about their deeds; over the past 20 to 25 years, all religions acts of violence have been committed by people who identify as Muslim; they are also more organized, versus random, disorganized people calling themselves Christians; although occurring hundreds of years ago, organized Christian acts of violence occurred after many years of persecution from all groups surrounding them, but the organized effort was lead by the Roman or British Empires; the Roman Empire had a violent organized history; in modern times (e.g. at least the past 300 years), Christians are the victims of organized persecutions, not the perpetrators of organized violence; additionally, all examples of organized violence finds no place in organized Christianity (e.g. the New Testament of the Bible, which is basically the Christian aspects of the Bible).

You do realize that ISIS is declared a terrorist organization by Muslim countries,that ISIS is killing Muslims left and right who disagrees with them?

You do also realize that the MB is considered&labeled a terrorist group in Muslim countries,yet the USA still haven't declared them one,despite them butchering human beings on the streets?

You do realize that the USA&great Britain were the ones that created these terrorists groups?

I know that the rivalry between the Sunni and Shia has been going on for decades in Iraq, so, it depends on which group ISIS identifies; so, yes, Sunni and Shia have been killing each other for years in Iraq; ISIS just seems to be on a mission right now; I know ISIS desecrated Biblical artifacts and started targeting Christians and minority religious groups in Iraq, but this is a recurring theme throughout the Middle East and in places like Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India.

Well, initially, Egypt elected members of the Muslim Brotherhood on the most recent occasion when they deposed their leader recently, as well on a prior occasion; the USA certainly disagreed in the media, when the Muslim Brotherhood was going to be elected in charge of Egypt.

How did the US and Britain create those terrorists groups? From what I've heard, they just formed, because they disagreed with the value system in the US and for the Britains choosing to be allies with the US.

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@sophia89 said:

@lordraiden said:

@sophia89 said:

@sophia89 said:

@looby_loo said:

A church confirmed footage of a real exorcism? I only saw a woman screaming through the key hole it was filmed with giggling in the background from the person filming. Unless I missed something? I did double check to make sure this wasn't the onion news!

http://bloody-disgusting.com/videos/3326109/heres-real-footage-modern-exorcism/

Before I click on it,I'll warn you that this better not be porn.

Clicked on it,it wasn't porn :(

Why would you think that it's porn??

More than once a strange link ends up being porn.

Fair enough. Sad to say, I've been let down here so far lol everything I've clicked on has been legitimate, if not satirical.

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@dshipp17 said:

I'm not sure what you're seeing, but there are not "all kinds of members of the faith" committing horrible acts in an organized fashion like the example your point out about the Muslims; you're basically trying to take isolated examples and extrapolating a false attack against the Christian faith; the KKK does not have the numbers to even amount to a fringe group in Christianity; the KKK is basically just labeling themselves as Christian, but nothing supports their activities; the Crusades was more of an action by the Roman Empire than it was the Catholic Church; neither of these examples really resemble a group like ISIS, as very little of their activities can be taken from passages in the Bible for broad support. The only examples you can point out are basically people who committed horrible acts that simply call themselves Christians, but they are not confirming to any formal, recognized Christians doctrines, when they go about their deeds; over the past 20 to 25 years, all religions acts of violence have been committed by people who identify as Muslim; they are also more organized, versus random, disorganized people calling themselves Christians; although occurring hundreds of years ago, organized Christian acts of violence occurred after many years of persecution from all groups surrounding them, but the organized effort was lead by the Roman or British Empires; the Roman Empire had a violent organized history; in modern times (e.g. at least the past 300 years), Christians are the victims of organized persecutions, not the perpetrators of organized violence; additionally, all examples of organized violence finds no place in organized Christianity (e.g. the New Testament of the Bible, which is basically the Christian aspects of the Bible).

I am seeing the truth... the Ku Klux Klan are Christians they believe in Jesus just like you do... the only difference is they have rather bizarre views of Blacks, Jews and anyone else that does not look like them but they do believe in Jesus making them Christian... and yeah, now there aren't as many KKK members but back in the day in America there was quite a few of them as well as you had many White Americans who followed the same line of thought in this country who was Christians also... so don't give me that Ku Klux Klan aint Christians crap. Oh, so now you want to say that the Catholic Church has clean hands too ? Man, it's a shame how blind a person can be about the history of his own faith. I mean you are already kind of crazy anyways claiming you was with GOD before the world began... starting to wonder why I even responded to you.

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@mastermercenary: Ok once again not all atheists are anti-theists, Stalin did that in the name of COMMUNISM. Those fundamentalists do it in the name of ISLAM. You see the difference?

Come on mate, who want to get rid of religion, communists? You said it yourself, You believe that religion is destructive so he did like what the other atheists believe.. If you see that doesn't make a sense then and you believe communism is the real reason, then you should consider the same about terrorism and politics rather than religion.

I don't see how the scripture talks about the big bang.

The Big Bang theory states that around 12-15 billion years ago the universe came into existence from one single extremely hot and dense point, and that something triggered the explosion of this point that brought about the beginning of the universe. The universe, since then, has been expanding from this single point.

Later, in 1965, radio astronomers Arno Penzias and Robert Wilson made a Noble Prize winning discovery that confirmed the Bing Bang theory. Prior to their discovery, the theory implied that if the single point from which the universe came into existence was initially extremely hot, then remnants of this heat should be found. This remnant heat is exactly what Penzias and Wilson found. In 1965, Penzias and Wilson discovered a 2.725 degree Kelvin Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMB) that spreads through the universe. Thus, it was understood that the radiation found was a remnant of the initial stages of the Big Bang. Presently, the Big Bang theory is accepted by the vast majority of scientists and astronomers.

“Have those who disbelieved not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then We separated them, and made from water every living thing? Then will they not believe?” (Quran 21:30)

Muslim scholars who have explained the previous verse mention that the heavens and earth were once one, and then God caused them to separate and form into the seven heavens and Earth. Yet, due to the limitations of science and technology at the time of the revelation of the Quran (and for centuries to follow), no scholar was able to give much detail about how exactly the heavens and earth were created. What the scholars could explain was the precise meaning of each word in Arabic in the verse, as well as the overall meaning of the verse.

the verse in arabic :أَوَلَمْ يَرَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَنَّ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضَ كَانَتَا رَتْقًا فَفَتَقْنَاهُمَا ۖ وَجَعَلْنَا مِنَ الْمَاءِ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ حَيٍّ ۖ أَفَلَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

the translitration :Awa lam yara allatheenakafaroo anna assamawati wal-ardakanata ratqan fafataqnahuma wajaAAalnamina alma-i kulla shay-in hayyin afalayu/minoon

In the previous verse, the Arabic words ratq and fataq are used. The wordratq can be translated into “entity” “sewn to” “joined together” or “closed up”. The meaning of these translations all circulate around something that is mixed and that has a separate and distinct existence. The verb fataq is translated into “We unstitched” “We clove them asunder” “We separated” or “We have opened them”. These meanings imply that something comes into being by an action of splitting or tearing apart. The sprouting of a seed from the soil is a good example of a similar illustration of the meaning of the verb fataq.

Source

I'm going to end our debate, I'm just getting overloaded with other debates. Plus your replies are not showing up in my feed/

Fair enough! Maybe we will debate another time (like we always do), goodbye!!!

May I ask one thing though? For future reference, may I use you for help on translating on the Qur'an if I have any questions?

Sure why not. But I'll give you websites to help you more.

The Qur'an

The Sunnah

Cya later

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