Religion… What do you think?

I am surprised I guess. I remember getting into a couple of religious debates with you. It was quite a while ago...

Ok.

I'm interested in what kind of agnostic you are.

Agnosticism is about knowledge,

if you know whether god/gods exist then you are a gnostic.

if you do not know then you are agnostic. (and/or if think this is unknowable)

However this doesn't tell us what you believe or disbelieve

If you believe that god/gods exist then you are theist

If you do not have that belief then you are atheist

Atheism/theism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive.

I think I am on the same page as Richard Dawkins. IIRC he mentioned once that he was a 9 on the scale from 1 to 10 on how much he didn't believe a God existed. He said that because he couldn't prove that a god doesn't exist he couldn't be a 10. Thats where I am now. I think its unlikely but not entirely impossible.

Well, its sort of complicated but the contention I used to have was that life must have been created by a higher power. The idea that life started as a self replicating molecule just never made any sense to me and it still doesn't. Everything in the universe is made of a few (4) elementary particles but why then is carbon based life the only kind we know to exist? What exactly is consciousness and how is it applied to some objects and not others. It just felt like something huge was missing. Something scientist would never be able to explain.There is still so much we don't know about the universe. Those questions and other things like comfort were the reasons I believed in a higher power. But over time I realized that I was just using God to fill in the gaps of ignorance. Thats what a lot of theist do. i'll tell you more later I am at my job and i don't want to get fired. :-)

You know often I would wonder why GOD loved to make those who seem the most dedicated to him suffer through "So Much" in comparison to those who are wicked.

NOW LET ME CLARIFY, WHEN I SAY WICKED I DO NOT MEAN ATHEISTS OR THOSE OF A DIFFERENT FAITH. SIMPLY THOSE WHOSE ACTIONS LOOK TO IMPOSE PAIN OR PROBLEMS ON OTHERS FOR THEIR OWN GAIN.

Anyways, it just seemed so strange that GOD could give so much to those who look to do whatever it takes to make money or be successful... now matter how many people they put down or crush or what evil things they do to keep money and power... yet, people who really try to do good and well... people who try to help others and have faith towards a deity would get left in such bad situations with burdens and pain. Yet these azzholes who have money and just do any manner of sh!t they want continue to gain.

It sounds like you had a very significant change in your perspective. I'd definitely be curious to know more.

Humans in general do fill in gaps in knowledge with our own wishes and desires, and the brain creates and see patterns even when they might not be there. I think that as a human, one of our great challenges is to constantly be aware of this tendency and not be misled by it. Sometimes it's ok to say "I dont know", which is kind of the source of science... the willingness to have an open mind and then go where the evidence leads you.

Like I was saying I used God as an excuse to explain what I thought must be the reason for existence "He" was the reason the universe existed at all. On the flip side, I've only actually been to church a few times and I never really read the bible ,so I never really subscribed to what it actually meant to be a christian. I always assumed Christianity meant being virtuous. The fact that Christianity helps so many people with things like loss and depression, I never really saw it as a bad thing so I considered myself Christian for a good part of my life. The turning point for me came gradually but the more I listened the opposite side (atheism) the more and more I heard really valid points.

Three people changed my mind about the existence of God. Stephen Hawking - He explained in a documentary that in a black hole...gravity was infinite. Gravity was so extreme that time itself stands still and that would be precisely the conditions of the universe before the big bang happened.

Albert Einstein - I read many biographies about him and I was surprised to find out one of the most important scientist in modem day history was an agnostic. He definitely understood the universe better than anyone before him and for him to not completely dismiss the idea of God kind of made me feel the same way.

Neil deGrasse Tyson - He once described "God" as an " ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance" which is actually true considering gods like Thor were thought to control thunder before we understood what it was. Poseidon controlled the seas and Hades was the god of the dead. The Christian God just exist in a place where people cant prove that "he" doesn't exist.

So I stand as a agnostic now only because we need to know more and I am all for finding out.

L

Atheist. Though I like to learn about different religions.

Those are certainly good people to get ideas from as far as how the universe works. I'd also recommend Carl Sagan and Richard Feynman. If you havent seen this video, I think you might like it:

Thought some might find this interesting.

https://richarddawkins.net/2014/08/a-hundred-walked-out-of-my-lecture/

@king_saturn: Haha a lot of stuff was different from now and then. I'm Athiest simple as that. I don't even like a title on it. I like to learn and live my life.

You make a good point; one thing to make the Bible authentic are the many prophesies of the Bible that have come true. Since Biblical prophesies are true, that makes them significantly different than just any prophesy. If you noticed the recently media, and you have a certain level of familiarity with the Bible, you'll note Biblical prophesy unfolding right before our very eyes. You raised the one point that I forgot to raise in defense of the Bible.

God tends to reveal Himself to individuals; people testify to God revealing Himself to them all the time. God will vividly reveal Himself during Armageddon, as you noticed.

The point was Why can't GOD reveal himself to everyone like Now before the world is dying or tearing itself apart. For GOD to reveal himself to everyone at the end of the world is pointless... as the world itself is dying... and it's not like GOD does much for the Non Believers at that point anyways according to these proposed prophesies.

As far as revealing himself to individuals... that's trivial ( n!gga could be hallucinating or simply saying he saw GOD when he didn't ) ... that's what makes it problematic... if GOD revealed himself to everyone at once before the world is dying... then we could have literal physical evidence of the encounter... especially if it's like one of those Mount Sinai type of events with Moses and the Israelites.

God does reveal Himself to everyone; seeing Him as a physical manifestation is not the only way you can have revelation of God; despite God revealing Himself, some people adjust the goal post to the point that they can try to convince others that they do not believe; it's more of a matter that some do not want to accept, is the more accurate description of what's happening; that's just something that those people need to deal with on a personal level, before it's everlastingly too late for them. God revealed Himself by physical manifestation at various points in antiquity, with the most recent being in the form of Jesus Christ.

It's certainly not a trivial matter when God reveals Himself to individuals; when it happens, it's usually a profound and life altering event for those individuals; these instances usually happens thousands of times a year, something far from insignificant. I'm someone that God has revealed Himself to multiple times, so you're actually kind of talking a foreign language to me; I can understand where you're coming from, if God hasn't revealed Himself to you, after a point, probably a point where you moved your goal post to. Don't belittle someone's experiences. Individuals having God reveal Himself to them is a whole lot like God revealing Himself to the Israelites, as it was confined to one group mainly, and somewhat a second group (e.g. the Egyptians).

Today I was eating some chicken nuggets from Mcdonald's, one of them happen to look like Jesus' head, I dropped on both knees and started to cry for the Lord has shown me the light. You can't tell me I'm lying, I saw it!

What Bible prophecies are coming true that are NOT general prophecies? A general prophecy is : the world will get worse, they'll be wars and earthquakes, people will love money and be ungrateful. What is a specific prophecy that has come true?

I don't know what I think in regards to my religious beliefs. However, I do wish people would stop trying to push their religious views into laws that affect everyone. Its okay to let your religious beliefs guide your own life...not okay to legislate it on others.

Materialism has priority because 1) We can directly experience the natural world 2) We can't properly conceive of the supernatural because my conceivability of something is grounded in my experience of the nature that thing. 3) Supernatural by default is outside of the human realm of experience, so it really has no standing and isn't a competing worldview.

@dshipp17: I have heard of Hindu people seeing their Gods, yet a Christian would probably denounce any other religious claim as demons. I do wonder, how has your God revealed himself to you?

Well, the most predominant religion near the people who are Hindi is Islam, not Christianity. Yes, Christians know that there are no other gods. Any Christian or former Christian would know that; according to the Hebrew/Jewish text of the Bible, God repeatedly tells us that there are no other gods; as such, that's the end of the matter, because God has spoken. There is only God, Angels, and fallen angels (and demons, if one also accepts the teachings in the Book of Enoch). Christians will trace other religions back to that time period between Noah and Abraham, when idolatry grew, flourished, and spread; other religions are a relic of that time period; God had to constantly address the Israelites for becoming complacent and allowing other cultures to taint them with their idolatry practices; ultimately, God allowed the Israelite people to be broken down and dispersed, starting long before they become entangled with the Roman Empire, at the time of Jesus, until God's promise to re-form the Israelites occurred around 1947, which happens to represent a major Biblical prophesy; this was following repeated patterns when the Isralites did that which was evil in the eyes of the Lord, where they usually worshiped idols.

As I previously said, I knew God long before I became an embryo in my mother's womb; I was reduced into a lesser being, which involved me being reborn in my mother's womb; for some reason, according to a promise or packed, or because of the prior being that I represented, I retained my memories of my last physical interaction with God; as a result, I know God exists.

However, still, God revealed Himself to me the same way He reveals Himself to human beings; this revelation occurs in the form of an inner longing or feeling to discover good; this occurs when you first contemplate the question: how or why did I get here? God than reveals Himself to you by giving you leads to pursue the answer to this question; He will take you through several different experiences, which might include other religions, until He leads you to Christianity; it's than up to you to acknowledge that your question has been answered or go into a state of denial; however, for the people who chose to acknowledge that God has provided answer, these people get deeper and more developed in the Christian faith; I represent one of these people; however, doubts can start to affect your confidence in the Christian faith, along with God Himself; this is where God has started to reveal Himself to me, to keep my confidence in the Christian faith high; I actually started to pray that God would keep my confidence in Him and His existence high.

So, when I find my confidence in God receding, or doubting whether my prayers will be answered, God always respond to my prayers in some way or another; it's usually up to me to figure out when it happens; it's almost as if God is refining my faith IQ or like taking one of those eye tests, where you have to notice where a dot of light is shining. Sometimes, I would need something financial; i'd pray, but don't get an immediate answer to my prayers; it will become the case that financial disaster is imminent; I get to a state of being resigned to my fate, and than, bomb, God comes in with a financial miracle, answering my prayer; this is how God usually reveals Himself to me (e.g. when a situation is so pressing, than I'm just resigned to my fate, than God comes in to the rescue me). Sometimes, I'll pray and my prayers aren't answered and fate has its way; but, I'd look back in hindsight and discover that I'm better off in the long run, because that prayer was not answered; sometimes, it's just a learning lessen for me and a regret about a blown opportunity, but, because of God, these regrets are rare, but my life is not as bad as it could be. Recently, Jesus revealed Himself to me in a dream like state, when I was contemplating the question of is there really an afterlife; I wanted to see one way or the other, and thought about having a near death experience; something obviously happened to me, as God was kind enough to appease my longing for an answer. I have so many instances where God has revealed Himself to me that I've forgotten a lot of them, but I know they happened, and I'm only left with confidence in my convictions.

@dshipp17:

"As I previously said, I knew God long before I became an embryo in my mother's womb; I was reduced into a lesser being, which involved me being reborn in my mother's womb; for some reason, according to a promise or packed, or because of the prior being that I represented, I retained my memories of my last physical interaction with God; as a result, I know God exists."

I don't really buy that.... Conscious thought cannot exist without a brain...

"However, still, God revealed Himself to me the same way He reveals Himself to human beings; this revelation occurs in the form of an inner longing or feeling to discover good; this occurs when you first contemplate the question: how or why did I get here? God than reveals Himself to you by giving you leads to pursue the answer to this question; He will take you through several different experiences, which might include other religions, until He leads you to Christianity; it's than up to you to acknowledge that your question has been answered or go into a state of denial; however, for the people who chose to acknowledge that God has provided answer, these people get deeper and more developed in the Christian faith; I represent one of these people; however, doubts can start to affect your confidence in the Christian faith, along with God Himself; this is where God has started to reveal Himself to me, to keep my confidence in the Christian faith high; I actually started to pray that God would keep my confidence in Him and His existence high."

A Muslim could use that very same argument...

And for your last paragraph, why would God answer your prayers about financial trouble when he lets thousands of Christians every day be killed, or starve to death? And you contribute what seems like complete randomness into a omnipresent being showing you more decency and love than Christians in much worse conditions.

Actually, most of the Christian scientists that I've discovered are trying to prove the Bible; one recent and notable example is Ken Ham; actually, somewhere at about 90% of scientists are atheists. Yes, the scientists that some of the major scientific journals prefer are avoiding the findings that actually demonstrates the truth of the Bible; again, I'd refer you to the book "Censored Science" by Bruce Malone; that goes into a number of findings that most scientists avoid discussing, because they tend to validate the Bible. The Bible is 100% true, although we've only been able to prove parts of the Bible, due to the nature of the claims that one can develop from the Bible; 100% of the things that could be verified about the Bible has been true; as I said in a previous post, from this we would have no reason to doubt the things that cannot yet be verified from the Bible. Most Christians accept the creation account laid out in the Bible; very few Christians have good reason to embrace evolution; I posted a clip as to why Christians still accept the creation account as laid out in the Bible. Actually, many of the Christian scientists are actively casting doubt on old Earth theory and evolution.

The calculation that the Earth is 6000 years old is a mistake; what the Bible cannot date is the period of time between Noah and Abraham; and than, the dating between Adam and Noah would be off; the Bible was only listing significant figures between Adam and Abraham, sort of like saying there was Stephan Hawking, than there was Albert Einstein, than there was Isaac Newton, etc., or there was Martin Luthor King, than there was Abraham Lincoln, and there was Jesus Christ; there are gaps that isn't being mentioned, because it was considered significant, by some standard of measure about who should be mentioned; it was like the instance where no one is mentioned between Joseph and the parents of Moses, but you might have thought that some other issue during that period was important to mention, but was left out; therefore, the 6000 year calculation does not appear to be reliable to such a degree that it should be presented as an official position.

@cable_extreme: You know how Gladiator and Hyperion are copy cats of superman? Well here are, not one myth, but 10 myths who are older then the legend of Jesus. Keep in mind that the time gap between the Jewish religion and Christianity is 400 yrs. That is plenty of time to invent your own myths/religion. The similarities between Jesus and some of these other myths are uncanny.

http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-christ-like-figures-who-pre-date-jesus/

Proof that Jesus Lied

John 14:12-14 says: Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 13"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14"If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

So if a person believes in Jesus they should be able to do the same works as Jesus and even more. Jesus was able to walk on water, heal the sick and raise the dead. I have not seen one person do that. It also plainly says that WHATEVER you ask in my name, I will do. We all know that is a lie.

Criss Angel Mindfreak was able to walk on water and levitate. lol

It's scary to think that Criss angel is the only true believer

@pooty: Totally freaks your mind!

GOD has never revealed himself to large quantities of people at once in modern times... seeing GOD in a physical manifestation is the "Best Way" for GOD to reveal himself to everyone... otherwise it would constantly be a trivial matter because GOD revealing himself to individuals can always be chalked up to that particular person is crazy or just making up things for their own purposes. Again, you constantly go on this GOD revealing himself to Individuals but this has nothing to do with GOD revealing himself to Everyone as it would take something more Physical in nature for this to happen anyways... something that can be seen around the world by millions or billions... not just some individual manifestation.

It is a trivial matter when GOD reveals himself to people... because even though that person may change his life over the ordeal... we have no idea or neither does the person who is saying it that it was actually GOD who revealed himself to them... it could have been a number of things including a n!gga just making the sh!t up in his head... you talking about how GOD revealed himself to you... but If I recall correctly, you was the same guy who said that you had existed with GOD before the world began... I am thinking you are a perfect example of GOD's individual revelations being trivial... because you speak "Bizarre Things" when you talk about how GOD revealed himself to you and not legitimately. Even if GOD revealed himself to you in some profound way... what evidence is there to really go by that it was GOD ? How do you know it wasn't a Demon or Satan ? They also can transform into beings of Light or Divine Presence... ( well Satan can at least, don't remember about his Lieutenants ) so how do you know it wasn't Satan playing you and pretending to be GOD to you ? The Devil is a trickster right ?

@pooty: yep, I knew this pretty much.

For those people who argue that all religious creation stories have been disproven by modern science- go back to one of the oldest religions of all in the Dharmic tradition, Jainism, and look at their beliefs regarding the 'creation' of the universe. Then go and read about the cutting-edge scientific multi-verse creation theories which are currently gaining traction over the traditional 'big bang' theory. Are there any real differences between them? Not really- save for the fact that the religious theory was conceived of, expanded upon in far greater detail, and gained wide acceptance among its community at least two and a half millennia earlier than the scientific theory.

God reveals himself through his Special Revelation which would be his Word, and his Son.

General Revelation would be through your Conscience, Nature, and Creation which is the obvious.

Naturally Our hearts prefer darkness over light because of our sinful nature though..

People often look for signs from Heaven. Which I don't get honestly.. it doesn't take Faith to believe in God.. again it's obvious at least the Bible says that: “ The fool has said in his heart that there is no God ”

It takes Faith to be saved not to believe.

Reading about Jesus and Yahweh is NOT God Revealing Himself To You... It's You Reading About A Deity In A Holy Book.

This is Way Off... Because Conscience, Nature and Creation are not Evidence of GOD... Creation is that which we Humans create and build in this world... Conscience is something that is developed during human life. Nature is that which we see of the Earth... but none of this is Evidence of GOD... Be Honest, if you never read a Bible or Quran... would you honestly even have a notion that these things are even from a Higher Power ? It's the idea and the claims of the books that give you this inclination... not actual investigation into the study of these things themselves.

No one is looking for a sign from Heaven... we ( well I am ) talking about GOD revealing himself to everyone at once... and preferably before the world is tearing apart.

This line you have "It doesn't take Faith to believe in GOD" is totally erroneous... of course it takes faith to believe in GOD... there is no physical evidence of one at this time... as far as your line about the fool says in his heart there is no GOD... okay, so what ? The atheist says in his heart, that the claims that GOD is real is unsubstantiated by any evidence. The deist says in his heart, there probably is a GOD he just isn't associated with any religious basis. The agnostic says in his heart, eh I don't really know either way about this GOD stuff.

@king_saturn: “ Reading about Jesus and Yahweh is NOT God Revealing Himself To You... It's You Reading About A Deity In A Holy Book.”

1st: • Wrong.. The Bible isn't just a bunch of flat words on a page.. it's not some Fairy Tale like some ignorant people believe.

Revealing: “ making interesting or significant information known, especially about a person's attitude or character.”

• What the Bible um.. does when it comes to God.

“ This is Way Off... Because Conscience, Nature and Creation are not Evidence of GOD... Creation is that which we Humans create and build in this world... Conscience is something that is developed during human life. Nature is that which we see of the Earth... but none of this is Evidence of GOD... Be Honest, if you never read a Bible or Quran... would you honestly even have a notion that these things are even from a Higher Power ? It's the idea and the claims of the books that give you this inclination... not actual investigation into the study of these things themselves.”

2nd: • Wrong.. read Genesis. It's because of the evidence ALL AROUND and the fact I have Reason, Purpose and a Conscience.(Unless you can prove with evidence why we have Morality and the understanding of Good and Evil, AND where the understanding of Reason, Purpose and a Conscience comes from or Guilt for that matter).

• Nature and Creation were CREATED therefore (using common sense) theres a Creator.. again read Genesis.

“ This line you have "It doesn't take Faith to believe in GOD" is totally erroneous... of course it takes faith to believe in GOD... there is no physical evidence of one at this time... as far as your line about the fool says in his heart there is no GOD... okay, so what ? The atheist says in his heart, that the claims that GOD is real is unsubstantiated by any evidence. The deist says in his heart, there probably is a GOD he just isn't associated with any religious basis. The agnostic says in his heart, eh I don't really know either way about this GOD stuff.”

3rd: • Again.. Read Genesis.. Think about this since you don't believe it takes faith.

If you look at a building would it really take Faith to believe there was an Architect

Yes or No?

All 3 go hand in hand.

@dbvse7: God reveals himself through his Special Revelation which would be his Word, and his Son.

We only know of his Son because of his Word. Jesus is not around to reveal anything. But God does not have a Son according to Judaism(which is older then Christianity) and Islam. So all we have is a Book. But doesn't every religion have a Book inspired by God?

General Revelation would be through your Conscience, Nature, and Creation which is the obvious.

Lets say those things proves A Creator. They don't prove which God is the true God. And if Creation proves a Creator then who created the Creator?

People often look for signs from Heaven. Which I don't get honestly.. it doesn't take Faith to believe in God.. again it's obvious at least the Bible says that: “ The fool has said in his heart that there is no God

It does take faith to believe in God. We have many explanations of how the universe started. The Big Bang theory is just as possible as a Immortal being creating us

again it's obvious at least the Bible says that: “ The fool has said in his heart that there is no God

Most religious books say if you don't believe what we say then you are fool and going to hell. They all sound the same

It takes Faith to be saved not to believe.

It takes works and grace to be saved

1. The Bible is Unsubstantiated Claims about a Deity or a set of Specific Deities, as well as proposed history of Man, Man's dealing with the Deity, the Deity's action and interaction with the Universe and Man. But it's still Claims and not Evidence nor is it Revelation of GOD... as it doesn't nothing but present the claim of their being some deity out there... but the Bible does not actually make the GOD real... nor does reading about that GOD in the Bible either. It's just the book that gives you the idea about the Deity.

2. By the definition you have given of Revealing... Superman, Spider-Man, Batman and Hulk have all Revealed themselves to us even more than Jesus has as there is far more reading information made known on those Four Comic Book Characters than there is for Jesus or Yahweh. You see the problem ? Revelation has to come in a more physical manner for it to be more relevant not just from some books you read that give us the claim about said people.

3. If you read Genesis than you are admitting my position is Correct wholeheartedly. Genesis is the claim about GOD and him creating all this stuff... but if you never read Genesis. How could you come to this conclusion based on the evidence of nature around us alone ? No Bible included, how would you determine that GOD created this stuff ? Think about it.

4. I hate you keep saying Nature and Creation... I mean considering you are a Bible Believing Dude... don't you understand that Nature is apart of Creation and that it's redundant to say them both anyways ? But in any case, the point is "How would you know that GOD created these things without the Bible" because like I said, the Bible itself is only the claim about these things about GOD and who he is and what he has done and will do. NOW, what is it outside of the Bible that makes these claims more reliable ?

5. I have read Genesis, a many times and technically according to Genesis, GOD comes off as the Bad Guy... because he creates Man and Woman in a situation where they can't discern Good from Evil and get caught by a trick of the Devil... this in turn pisses off GOD to the point he cuts off Man and Woman from the Garden and even takes away their potential for Eternal Life because he is afraid that man would become more like him. Technically if you read Genesis you will realize Yahweh NEVER needed Jesus to even give Man Eternal Life after he sinned. Check out what Yahweh says in Genesis 3:22 after the fall of Man about this special thing called "The Tree of Life".

6. We know that Buildings have Architects... we know that Cars are made by Engineers and so forth... the problem with GOD is that there is No Data to determined how he could have formed Planets as well have never seen anyone make a Planet or Stars or Galaxy before. So your analogy is useless as it does nothing to touch on the base of what GOD himself creates and not Man.

@king_saturn: @pooty: “ We only know of his Son because of his Word. Jesus is not around to reveal anything. But God does not have a Son according to Judaism(which is older then Christianity) and Islam. So all we have is a Book. But doesn't every religion have a Book inspired by God?”

1st: • Jesus fulfilled all the Old Testament prophecies concerning the messiah who was to come n redeem Israel, the entire early church was Jewish, the New Testament was written by Jewish believers with the exception of the gospel of Luke n book of Acts. Jesus was Jewish! That's why we call it Judeo Christisnity.

“ Lets say those things proves A Creator. They don't prove which God is the true God. And if Creation proves a Creator then who created the Creator? ”

2nd: • This is where YOU would need to know the difference between Christianity and other religions.

• “ First, unlike the universe, which according to modern science had a beginning, God is infinite and eternal. Thus, as an infinite eternal being, God logically can be demonstrated to be the uncaused First Cause.

Furthermore, to suppose that because the universe had a cause, the cause of the universe must have had a cause simply leads to a logical dead end. An infinite regression of finite causes does not answer the question of source; it merely makes the effects more numerous.

Finally, simple logic dictates that the universe is not merely an illusion; it did not spring out of nothing (nothing comes from nothing; nothing ever could); and it has not eternally existed (the law of entropy predicts that a universe that has eternally existed would have died an “eternity ago” of heat loss). Thus, the only philosophically plausible possibility that remains is that the universe was made by an unmade Cause greater than itself.”

“ It does take faith to believe in God. We have many explanations of how the universe started. The Big Bang theory is just as possible as a Immortal being creating us ”

3rd: • Look at the Second point, and the evidence is all around you so no it doesn't take Faith to believe in God.

“ Most religious books say if you don't believe what we say then you are fool and going to hell. They all sound the same

It takes Faith to be saved not to believe.

It takes works and grace to be saved ”

4th: • Again.. YOU would need to know te difference between Christianity.

@dbvse7 said:

1. How exactly did he fulfil any of the Old Testament prophecies? And you're actually arguing that all Jesus did was to come and redeem ISRAEL, and the JEWISH PEOPLE. Does anyone else in the world come into it? You call it 'Judeo Christisnity' (need to work on your spelling there)- the rest of the world calls it Radicalist Zionism.

2. Do you? Because you're the one arguing that only Jewish people can be true Christians.

3. It takes blind, fanatical faith to believe in your vision of God, and in his 'Jews-only' policy.

4. Your viewpoint is not that of Christianity. It's about as far removed from Christianity as that of Satanism. On another point though- doesn't it take faith to believe in anything whatsoever? Why should you believe that anything you see, hear, or experience in any form is actually real? Why should you believe in every scientific theory that you're told- have you done the experiments to test the theories yourself, or are you merely going on hearsay? Science, Sociology, and Religion, are all theological in nature. Theo= based on THEORIES. And I personally like to emphasise the 'LOGICAL' aspect. The type of God who you're claiming to represent, his motives and his priorities, don't strike me as being logical in the slightest.

@king_saturn: Yea.. and I hate the base less “ just claims ” comments.. They're not just claims just because you don't believe and have 0 proof that they are JUST claims.

The Bible is the only thing we have to understand the Nature of God and his Character.

The difference between those fictional man made charcters.. they DO NOT exist AT ALL.. and there's no evidence for there existence. Nature as in the world we live in and Creation what we can't see thats why im using the two.

In short God gave them everything the only thing they couldn't touch was the Tree, but again God gave them a choice.. God would have been the bad guy if he would not of have them a choice. God knew they would fail so he already has an antidote (Jesus).

The evidence is all around you lol

“ the problem with GOD is that there is No Data to determined how he could have formed Planets as well have never seen anyone make a Planet or Stars or Galaxy before. So your analogy is useless as it does nothing to touch on the base of what GOD himself creates and not Man.”

Haha ironically part of the answer is Science. Bible: Genesis 1:1 “ In the Beginning, God created the heavens and the Earth.” Science can explain how things work... I mean you and I both agree that if we're asked how doe this earth stay together or Rotate we wouldn't say because of God that would be crazy haha.. again all the evidence is around you.. we have ALL the data we will EVER need the bible wasn't created to expose the data it's already here. True Science and Christianity support a Beginning in that aspect (Big Bang).

@dbvse7: Jesus did not fullfill all the prophecies of the Messiah. He did none of the things listed below:

1) He was to be Ruler of All Nations (and destroyer of all wicked, so there could be peace in the world)

2) He was to be a “Breaker” (Micah 2.12-13) of both external enemies and of internal power elites within Israel

3) He was to Redeem (Release) Israel from bondage to foreign powers

4) He was to be a killed-and-resurrected Davidic king

Number 4 is very important. Look at jesus lineage. he is only related to King David on Joseph side. But Joseph is NOT Jesus father. So Jesus is NOT of Davids lineage. Thus he can not be the messiah

This is where YOU would need to know the difference between Christianity and other religions.

I do know Christianity and Islam very well. They both say they are inspired by God etc. have YOU studied any other religions? What convinced you those other religions were not inspired by God?

@dbvse7: The Bible is the only thing we have to understand the Nature of God and his Character.

The Quran gives a lot of details into the nature of God and his Character. So does the Book of Mormon. So the Bible is NOT the only thing we have

@dbvse7: So every other person who lived and died in the time in between- their suffering and their deaths were all meaningless to God? And the Genesis story is inherently fallible. Was there anyone around to witness the act of Creation, save for God himself? Do you presume that any human would have been capable of even conceiving the awesome splendour of God's act of creation- let alone translating it into language, and jotting it all down in the space of just a few verses? How could there be 'days' before the sun came into being? How could the earth come into being before the sun? How could animals come into being before there were any plants? Your problem- you try to follow everything to the letter, try to claim that the Bible (King James version- only one third of the original books which we still have on record, with who knows how many more destroyed and forever lost duie to the passage of time) is true, perfect, infallible. It's not. Logically, it's impossible for it to be. The Christian creation story is NOT supposed to be presented as a factual step-by-step account of events as they happened, any more than the American national anthem is supposed to be a factual account of the events by which the USA came into being- it's IMAGERY. And BTW, I think you'll find from leading scientific journals that the Big Bang theory is already growing antiquated, increasingly inadequate when we try to explain some of the subtle inconsistencies in the 'perfection' of the observable universe...

@pooty: “At first blush the genealogies of Matthew and Luke appear to be contradictory. In reality the genealogies are ingeniously constructed to highlight different aspects of the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Matthew, writing to a primarily Jewish audience, emphasizes that Jesus Christ is the seed of Abraham and the legal heir of David, the long–awaited King of Israel who would ultimately restore his people from exile. As such, Matthew records fourteen generations from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile and fourteen from the exile to the Christ (Matthew 1:17). Matthew, a former tax collector, skillfully organizes the genealogy of Jesus into three groups of fourteen, the numerical equivalent of the Hebrew letters in King David’s name (4+6+4 =s+u+s). Thus Matthew’s genealogy simultaneously highlights the most significant names in the lineage of Jesus and artistically emphasizes our Lord’s identity as Messiah who would forever sit upon the throne of David.

Furthermore, Luke, writing to a primarily Gentile audience, extends his genealogy past Abraham to the first Adam, thus highlighting that Christ, the Second Adam, is the Savior of all humanity. Additionally, calling Adam “the son of God” (3:38) and strategically placing the genealogy between Jesus’ baptism and the desert temptation, Luke masterfully reveals Jesus as Theanthropos—the God–Man. It is also instructive to note that while Luke’s genealogy stretches from the first Adam to the second, only mountain peaks in the lineage are accounted for. Thus, it is impossible to determine how many years elapsed between the creation of Adam and the birth of Jesus. Matthew, writing to a primarily Jewish audience, emphasizes that Jesus Christ is the seed of Abraham and the legal heir of David, the long–awaited King of Israel who would ultimately restore his people from exile.

Finally, just as there are different emphases in the genealogies, so too there are different explanations for the dissimilarities between them. Matthew traces his genealogy through David’s son Solomon, while Luke traces his genealogy through David’s son Nathan. It may be that Matthew’s purpose is to provide the legal lineage from Solomon through Joseph, while Luke’s purpose is to provide the natural lineage from Nathan through Mary. It could also be that Matthew and Luke are both tracing Joseph’s genealogy— Matthew, the legal line, and Luke, the natural line. As such, the legal line diverges from the natural in that Levirate Law stipulated if a man died without an heir his genealogy could legally continue through his brother (Deuteronomy 25:5–6). Obviously, the fact that there are a number of ways to resolve dissimilarities rules out the notion that the genealogies are contradictory.

Topic Old Testament Prophecy New Testament Fulfillment in Christ

Seed of woman Genesis 3:15 Galatians 4:4

Line of Abraham Genesis 12:2 Matthew 1:1

Line of Jacob Numbers 24:17 Luke 3:23, 34

Line of Judah Genesis 49:10 Matthew 1:2

Line of Jesse Isaiah 11:1 Luke 3:23, 32

Line of David 2 Samuel 7:12-16 Matthew 1:1

Virgin Birth Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23

Birthplace: Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matthew 2:6

Forerunner: John Isaiah 40:3; Malachi 3:1, Matthew 3:3

Escape into Egypt Hosea 11:1 Matthew 2:14

Herod kills children Jeremiah 31:15 Matthew 2:16

King Psalm 2:6 Matthew 21:5

Prophet Deut 18:15-18 Acts 3:22-23

Priest Psalm 110:4 Hebrews 5:6-10

Judge Isaiah 33:22 John 5:30

Called “Lord” Psalm 110:1 Luke 2:11

Called “Immanuel” Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:23

Anointed by Holy Spirit Isaiah 11:2 Matthew 3:16-17

Zeal for God Psalm 69:9 John 2:15-17

Ministry in Galilee Isaiah 9:1-2 Matthew 4:12-16

Ministry of miracles Isaiah 35:5-6 Matthew 9:35

Bore world’s sins Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46

Ridiculed Psalm 22:7-8 Matthew 27:39, 43

Stumbling stone to Jew Psalm 118:22 1 Peter 2:7

Rejected by own people Isaiah 53:3 John 7:5, 48

Light to Gentiles Isaiah 60:3 Acts 13:47-48

Taught parables Psalm 78:2 Matthew 13:34

Cleansed the temple Malachi 3:1 Matthew 21:12

Sold for 30 shekels Zechariah 11:12 Matthew 26:15

Forsaken by disciples Zechariah 13:7 Mark 14:50

Silent before accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matthew 27:12-19

Hands and feet pierced Psalm 22:16 John 20:25

Heart broken Psalm 22:14 John 19:34

Crucified with thieves Isaiah 53:12 Matthew 27:38

No bones broken Psalm 22:17 John 19:33-36

Soldiers gambled Psalm 22:18 John 19:24

Suffered thirst on cross Psalm 69:21 John 19:28

Vinegar offered Psalm 69:21 Matthew 27:34

Christ’s prayer Psalm 22:24 Matthew 26:39

Disfigured Isaiah 52:14 John 19:1

Scourging and death Isaiah 53:5 John 19:1, 18

His “forsaken” cry Psalm 22:1 Matthew 27:46

Committed self to God Psalm 31:5 Luke 23:46

Rich man’s tomb Isaiah 53:9 Matthew 27:57-60

Resurrection Psalm 16:10; 22:22 Matthew 28:6

Ascension Psalm 68:18 Luke 24:50-53

Right hand of God Psalm 110:1 Hebrews 1:3

Any reasonable person who examines these Old Testament prophecies in an objective manner must conclude that Jesus was the promised Messiah. “If these messianic prophecies were written hundreds of years before they occurred, and if they could never have been foreseen and depended upon factors outside human control for their fulfillment, and if all of these prophecies perfectly fit the person and life of Jesus Christ, then Jesus had to be the Messiah.”6

Indeed, Christ on three different occasions directly claimed in so many words to be the “Christ.” (Note that the word Christ is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Messiah.) For example, in John 4:25 Jesus encountered a Samaritan woman who said to Him, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming….” To which Jesus replied, “I who speak to you am he” (v. 26). Later, Jesus referred to Himself in the third person, in His high priestly prayer to the Father, as “Jesus Christ, whom you have sent” (John 17:3). In Mark 14:61-62, we find the high priest asking Jesus, “Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”—to which Jesus declared unequivocally, “I am….”

Others also recognized that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah. In response to Jesus’ inquiry concerning His disciples’ understanding of Him, Peter confessed: “You are the Christ…” (Matt. 16:16). When Jesus said to Martha, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” Martha answered, “Yes, Lord…. I believe that you are the Christ…” (John 11:25-27).

Some may ask why Jesus didn’t explicitly claim more often to be the prophesied Messiah. Bible scholar Robert L. Reymond offers us some keen insights in answering this question:

Jews of the first century regarded the Messiah primarily as Israel’s national deliverer from the yoke of Gentile oppression….Had Jesus employed uncritically the current popular term as a description of Himself and His mission before divesting it of its one-sided associations and infusing it with its richer, full-orbed Old Testament meaning, which included the work of the Messiah as the Suffering Servant of Isaiah, His mission would have been gravely misunderstood and His efforts to instruct the people even more difficult. Consequently, the evidence suggests that He acknowledged He was the ‘Christ’ only where there was little or no danger of His claim being politicized — as in the case of the Samaritan woman, in private conversation with His disciples (at the same time, demanding that they tell no one that He was the Messiah), in semi-private prayer, or before the Sanhedrin when silence no longer mattered or served His purpose.7

Even if Jesus had never verbally claimed to be the prophesied Messiah, the very fact that He was the precise fulfillment of virtually hundreds of messianic prophecies cannot be dismissed, as some liberal critics have attempted. The odds against one person fulfilling all these prophecies are astronomical; indeed, it is impossible to calculate. But fulfill these prophecies, Jesus did—and then He added proof upon proof regarding His identity by the many astounding miracles He performed. Truly, Jesus is the Messiah.”

The prophecies you mentioned have yet to come.

Theres only 1 God. Christianity is different from any other Religion which I've learned when it comes to the essentials of Christianity, the History and Archaeology which prove this.

@dbvse7: You just cut and pasted a sermon from the internet. Are you sure you're not trolling?

The prophecies you mentioned have yet to come.

Theres only 1 God. Christianity is different from any other Religion which I've learned when it comes to the essentials of Christianity, the History and Archaeology which prove this

List all of the other Religions which you've 'learned'. And by 'learned', just knowing the name of that religion doesn't count. The Zionist God which you seem infatuated with happens to be a phenomenal jerk if you're anything other than a Jewish person. Relate the Jericho story to us. What did God command the Israelites to do to the people of Jericho AFTER the walls fell down? Does that strike you as a particularly merciful or benevolent God?

@sundeep: @sundeep: Just because I used the internet to help explaing something I couldn't to a better job at isn't trolling.. If I was trolling you wouldn't know or suspect me of trolling so don't use that whole “ oh you're cutting and pasting ” crap.

I didn't say I learned other Religions.. I basically said I've learned that Christianity is different from other Religions based on it's essentials, history and archaeology.

God is Love and Wrath.. Any other answer I give you most likely won't like anyway.

@dbvse7: The odds against one person fulfilling all these prophecies are astronomical; indeed, it is impossible to calculate

Mt: 19:26 With God nothing is impossible. So if Jesus was the Messiah he should have fulfilled them ALL. God would not set the requirements for the Messiah and then make them impossible to meet. A few simple questions puts this issue to rest. Does the Messiah have to be a descendent of David? Was Jesus father(who is God) a descendent of David?

If you have not learned other religions then how do you know they wouldn't hold up to the same scrutiny as the Bible? @consolemaster001 is our resident Muslim. He says that Islam is proven due to it's essentials, history and archeology. My point is: How can you know you have the right religion if you only know one religion? Isn't that like me saying marvel is better then DC but I have never read DC?

@pooty: @pooty: Yea and the Odds of this universe being made the way it is are bigger so what's your point? Nothing is impossible with God :P. All of the Prophecies have not been fulfilled YET.

“ Does the Messiah have to be a descendent of David? Was Jesus father(who is God) a descendent of David?”

What kind of questions are these lol.

He says that Islam is proven due to it's essentials, history and archeology. My point is: How can you know you have the right religion if you only know one religion? Isn't that like me saying marvel is better then DC but I have never read DC?”

Marvel being better or DC being better is completely Subjective theres no fact behind it.

Christians or Muslims being right isn't because only one religion can be right.

Archaeology has proven and had been a plus for Christianity Over and Over..

(Only in Christianity) no one in HISTORY has ever claimed to be God expect for Jesus.

“ From the voluminous number of ancient manuscripts, to the very early dating of the documents written during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses (some only 15 years after Christ’s death), to the multiplicity of the accounts (nine authors in 27 books of the New Testament), to the archaeological evidence—none of which has ever contradicted a single claim the New Testament makes—to the fact that the apostles went to their deaths claiming they had seen Jesus in action and that He had come back from the dead, Christianity sets the bar in terms of providing the proof to back up its claims. The New Testament’s historical authenticity—that it conveys a truthful account of the actual events as they occurred—is the only right conclusion to reach once all the evidence has been examined.”

Now if Jesus (historically proven to be a real person) is God, and said everything in the Bible is truth.. why would he lie, and why would I deny it?

I don't know where he got that History and Archaeology fact from.. but those two things have never benefited Islam. Islam hides from it and prevents discoveries to be disclosed to the public.

@dbvse7: All of the Prophecies have not been fulfilled YET.

Then we should not call Jesus the Messiah....YET

Does the Messiah have to be a descendent of David? Was Jesus father(who is God) a descendent of David?”

What kind of questions are these lol.

Those are questions that prove who the Messiah is. If Jesus is not a blood descendent of David then he can NOT be the Messiah

The New Testament’s historical authenticity—that it conveys a truthful account of the actual events as they occurred—is the only right conclusion to reach once all the evidence has been examined.”

That statement is completely FALSE. Has history proven that Jesus was raised from the dead? Has history proven that Jesus healed the sick? Has history proven that Paul raised the dead or expelled demons?

Now if Jesus (historically proven to be a real person) is God, and said everything in the Bible is truth.. why would he lie, and why would I deny it?

A man named Jesus may have lived, but there is nothing in archeology or history to support he is God or performed miracles. Also, the accounts of Jesus were written 15-70yrs after he died. That is plenty of time for the story to change. and the 4 Gospel writers do not prove it fact. More people have said they've seen Bigfoot and were abducted by aliens. and Jesus did lie. He lied at John 14: 12-14, Mt 21:21,22,

Why can only one religion be right- especially when they're preaching variants of the same thing? You do know that Muslims believe that Jesus is the Son of God as well, right? And that Mohammed was just supposed to be his prophet (in Arabia)? And yet you lump Judaism and Christianity together, in spite of the fact that Jews reject the divinity of Jesus Christ. You could make a far bigger, better argument for Christianity and Islam essentially being different denominations of the same religion (and a more meaningful one, given the numbers; the said faith would hold an absolute majority across the entire world population) than you can for Christianity and Judaism. Indeed, if it had arisen 500 years or so later, as a contemporary movement to Protestantism and Lutheranism, there can be little doubt that it would have been deemed to be a denomination of Christianity in the same manner that these later movements were. And there is plenty of archaeological evidence which contradicts the assertions which you made. The New Testaments makes several claims which are unverifiable- at the feeding of the 5,000 (/4,000- even the Apostles themselves couldn't agree on any of the actual details), couldn't archaeologists visit the site and find all of the fish bones which they would have left behind- if it actually happened?

None of Jesus' miracles have been verified through archaeology, or through scientific means. Ever. And you do know that Jesus was one of several people in the region who were claiming to be The One True Messiah at the time, don't you? Archaeologists have proven that much. John the Baptist is the most famous of these alternate messianic figures- indeed, even the Bible admits that after John the Baptist's execution, many people believed that Jesus was in fact John the Baptist risen from the dead, fulfiling the prophecy of the Second Coming in their eyes. As for the actual scrolls of the New Testament, carbon dating has traced the oldest scrolls which we have, upon which the modern bible is based (the Muratorian fragment) back to 170AD at the earliest. That's at least 100 years after the deaths of the last surviving Apostles; a full century for the duration of which the Gospels were passed on solely by word of mouth. That's not a reliable source, not by a long way.

@sundeep: You do know that Muslims believe that Jesus is the Son of God as well, right?

I would re-check that point. Muslims do believe that he is of virgin birth and a prophet of highest regard but don't believe he is God's Son. Islam says Allah is everlasting and immortal. he can do all things himself. he needs no son or wife.

Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth; how can He have a son when He has no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

—Qur'an 6:101

Those who say: ‘The Lord of Mercy has begotten a son,’ preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth break asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they should ascribe a son to the Merciful, when it does not become the Lord of Mercy to beget one!

—Qur’an 19:88

Alright, fair enough- but you do still share the belief that Jesus is the Messiah, don't you? I was just arguing that Islam's far more closely related to Christianity in most aspects than Judaism (i.e, exposing the flaws in his perception of a single 'Judeo-Christian' faith which somehow excludes Islam). If Martin Luther or an equivalent figure had broken away from the Papacy of the Catholic Church at the same time that Mohammed began preaching the message of Islam, do you think that Protestantism would be viewed as a denomination of Christianity, or as a completely separate faith in the same manner as Islam (with Lutheranism analogous to Shia Islam, and mainstream Protestantism analogous to Sunni Islam)? Wouldn't they have waged 'Holy Crusades' against any proto-Protestant regimes that may have arisen back then in exactly the same manner that they waged their Crusades in the Holy Land, further increasing the cultural and theological divide between the two, cementing their perception of each other as theological 'enemies' and permanently scarring relations between the two faiths in exactly the same way that it played out between Christianity and Islam?

@sundeep: I'm not Muslim or Christian. I don't believe the Bible or the Quran is the word of God. But you are right. Islam is more like Christianity then Judaism is. Christianity out right goes against Judaism. It's like the OT and NT were written by two different Gods. They are so different I don't know how anyone can say they were inspired by the same god