Religion… What do you think?

"When I do good I feel good. When I do bad I feel bad. That's my god."

-Abraham Lincoln.

@willpayton: When my grandfather laid hands on him his swelling immediately began to go down. Not over a few hours.

Look i'm not here to argue, i just told these stories to give my opinion. I don't know everything, so i won't pretend that i do. God is billions of years old, his ways aren't ours, he sees what i could never see. But i have seen the drawn out debates on this thread, but this won't be one of them. You must not rebuke the supernatural because of lack of understanding. Everything cannot be explained friend. Good day.

Beata

@willpayton: As soon as my grandfather placed his hands on him his swelling began to go down instantly. Not over the course of a few hours, but seconds

Look i'm not here to argue. I don't know everything so i'm not gonna pretend to. God is older than time itself, his ways aren't ours. He can see what we never could. But i have seen the drawn out debates on this thread. But this won't be one of them, i just came to give my opinion. You don't have to believe me. But i advise you not to rebuke the supetnatural because of lack of understanding. There are thousands of stories like the ones i told you today. Everything cannot be explained friend. Good day.

Beata.

@spidey_jackson said:

And that's supernatural... how?

Oh, the irony!

Those stories were not very impressive.

Although I have difficulties tolerating Lane's circular use of logic and it difficult to grasp his....bullshit, I was never aware he was a billionaire?? At times, the titles on the you tube videos make them sound one sided from the poster.

WALLS OF TEXT AND VIDEOS THREAD 2014

I think the video title is kinda funny to be honest, especially when William Lane Craig has profited off of preaching to the choir; so I think the title fits.

I'll give you that. He really struggled against Sean Carroll, imo, who steamrolled over him.

This is a really long video, so I've only watched a bit so far. But, damn, the part I've seen so far has Carroll completely destroying WLC's arguments. This is what happens when Craig actually tries to argue how the universe works with a theoretical physicist. He might as well try to tell a brain surgeon how to do surgery. Total failure for Craig.

That's actually not true, the bible implies that the Earth is 6,000 years old and Adam and Eve were the first two humans... you can't really have "a first human" with evolotion, it's too gradual. But I do agree with the Bible considering science cannot prove how old the Earth is, it's based off assumptions.

Very good observation; that's the message I was trying to covey with one of the videos that I posted earlier; I just suggest that a poster watch those videos all the way through.

Wait until you get through the whole video....lol! In some parts of the debate WLC's get demolished so bad that instead actually replying to Carroll's criticism he instead repeats the same arguments in his opening statement almost most verbatim like Carroll didn't even provide a rebuttal.

I follow the religion of batman

You know what I REALLY F*cking hate?

When you're debating a creationist on the internet and they say some sh!t like "Oh yeah? How can Evolution exist if the Second Law of Thermodynamics is true?"

85% of the time these retards don't actually know what they're saying means, but are rather trying to pretend Religion and Science mix, usually they follow this up with some crap like "MY GOD'S NOT DEAD. HE'S SURELY ALIVE, ROARING LIKE A LION ON THE INSIDE!"

This simply doesn't work though, what the second law of thermodynamics simply states is that in a closed system, Entropy never decreases.

Wanna know the big ass flaw in this?

WE AREN'T LIVING IN A GODDAMN CLOSED SYSTEM. Plenty of sh!t leaves and enters our Atmosphere everyday!

Quit using this goddamn argument, and quit trying to pretend like science is on your side.

If God killed all the Atheists tomorrow, we'd lose 93% of the U.S National academy of science (more if you killed the Agnostics), but only .2% of our massive prison population.

F*ck you, arm chair preachers.

Do you really know what you're talking about? Why would 99.8% of the prison population be spared? Why would God specifically target atheists, but not look to punish the wicked that is in prison? Sorry, but that's not how God would operate because the Bible tells me so. God would target all the wicked, the atheists and prison population alike, but, since Jesus, God appears to exercise His judgement differently; but, you probably are on to something that lead to Noah's ark.

@dshipp17: That wasnt his point. He said if all the atheists died tomorrow.

We would lose most of the NAS but most of prison would stay.

So, I have a question. If you think Evolution is wrong, the world is 6000yrs old, Bible literally true etc.

Then why is it not accepted? If you think the evidence is there. Why do 99% of biologists acceptors of evolution. Why do 99% of Geologists believe in an old earth. Etc.? Even if you think the numbers arent that high, Why do 90% of them? Why is your theory not more widely accepted?

Seems odd if its supported by facts

Heh, I think organized religion as we know it is about to come to a screeching halt.

@blackstaroblivion:

I agree

*tips fedora*

Losing the NAS would not be crisis of science, if that's what you're attempting imply. The remaining scientist would just fill in the void by necessity; I equate this comment with the people that say undocumented immigrants enter on employment VISAs because they fill jobs that people in the United States wont take; if the companies would simply hire the people that apply, things would be fine; I think people lose this perspective that the application process has been inappropriately made into a sporting event like competition; this is especially the case with the NAS.

We Christians believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God and God is not the deceiver; Satan is the author of confusion. Every time an effort has been take to verify the Bible, the Bible has been true; because of that, we take thew Bible as true for things that we cannot yet fully prove. In one box, we have a consensus by secular scientists and in another corner, we have a consensus by Christian scientists on an issue that can't really be proven either way; if I put on my scientific hat, all of my facts being presented would have to line up with the secular scientists, but it is interesting food for thought that my Christian scientists might be right. The below video will answer your questions; a book title "Censored Science" by the presenter is another good source.

@dshipp17:

No I was not impling that, I was correcting you for misinterpreting and standing up for god in a hypothetical situation.

As that was the intention of his message

I am not going to watch an hour and a half video right now , If you could point me to the part where they show why most scientists accept an old earth,

You are painting a false picture.

You are trying to put it as secular scientists vs christian scientists.

So go ahead show me that more christian scientists accept a 6000 year old earth than a 4 billion year old one. You cant, because it is NOT Christains vs Secularists/Naturalists/Atheists.

It is Science that is accepted, Peer reviewed, and has actually made predictions

vs

People making creationist museums and Videos that go on youtube and tv , straight to the public bypassing the scientific process.

You have not answered the question which was, Why is creationism absent in science, without resorting to conspiracy of course, as there are so many young men and women, christians no less, entering the field and so you cant say they are all " in on it can you". So without that I would like a justified reason.

And one new question,

Can you show me one prediction that Creation Science has made that is correct / describes things accurately with predictions. Prediction is THE most important part of science, as its what makes it useful and the ONLY way to have truth, That is how science accepts things as most likely true, That is, when they can make predictions that explain the world / universe / life.

Sorry if my tone comes off hostile. I am not. I just want to cut to the meat of a discussion

Waiting for reply.

Thanks

@algorhythm511 Greetings. I saw your post on another thread. Just wanted your views. I'm not trying to trick you or trap you. I just enjoy the topic of religion. You said you're liberal when it comes to the Bible. A few questions

1) Do you believe the Story of Adam/Eve/The Serpent is literal or symbolic?

2) What do you think "hell" is like?

3) Can a person be saved if they have heard of Jesus but denies he is our savior? Ex: Muslim or atheist

4) Is God perfect and justified in everything he does?

5) have you ever studied any other religions other then Christianity?

6) The Bible is very clear on homosexuality. Why is your views different from what the bible say?

I used to be a Christian. I'm not anymore. But when I was, i was very strict in my views. So when i saw you were "liberal" it caught my attention

I think that, you shouldn't have to rely on a sketchy book to tell you right from wrong.

I think whatever I type here on this forum may one day be used against me or my charecter so I think I'll just shut up.

1. It is literal.

2. It is separation from God. I don't think the fire and brimstone are literal. The actual word that Jesus uses in for Hell in most of the NT is Gehenna, which was a valley of trash where they would throw bad people. Besides, he describes Hell as outer darkness, however fire would light up outer darkness. Also, he either describes it as fire or as outer darkness, but never at the same time.

3. Yes. Most religions have truth. People can accept Christ in their heart, and not know it. Since we really don't know their actual reason for rejection. This is kind of hard to explain with words, the word is called "Inclusivism"(there is a good Wikipedia article here).

4. Yes, he is perfect and justified.

5. I have. I have studied Judaism, Hinduism, Bahai, Buddhism, and a couple of others. I do think there are important things a Christian can learn from all religions.

6. Actually, there are about 7 passages that relate to homosexuality in the Bible. These can actually be interpreted in different ways. For example, the Sodom and Gomorrah story; Did they want to have a loving monogamous relationship with the angels? or did they want to rape them? Big difference. Also, they had a bunch of other sins they were commit besides sexual immorality. This is actually a big debate within Christianity. Here is a fairly balanced article about the debate: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm

Thanks for the questions. The US general public seems to think that all Christians are closed minded. However, there are plenty of people from mainline Protestant and Catholic churches that are very open minded to interpretation of the scripture.

I assume you were Evangelical (Conservative Protestant) from what I am reading. Do you feel that the closed mindedness of your Church community drove you away from Christianity in general?

@raffels: lol

@_cain_: I've never delved deep into the creationism v evolution debate, so I'm not claiming any insight into this, but following what you said, creationists say that since entropy never decreases in a closed system so evolution cannot proceed, but you say this is nonsense because Earth is not a closed system.

My question is, isn't the universe a closed system and therefore destined to entropy?

Black People Be Tripping Balls Over Jesus Man...

I mean seriously, listening to some of these dirtbags use Jesus as a means of not paying their bills on time... "Well the Lord aint gave that blessing I was looking for yet, but Jesus will come through, he may not do it when you want to but he is always on time"

Response : Well Now, it appears Jesus may come on time for Humans, but unfortunately not for your Electric and Water, you can consider this the Lights Out Time, so sang a song for Jesus as we put your ass in the Dark, Hey, maybe The Lord's Light can suffice while you sit in the Dark.

@king_saturn: I loled a bit to much from that

I feel like doing

( •___•)>⌐■-■

(⌐■__■)

Some Christian bashing.

1)ok

2) ok

3) having studied other religions also i can tell you why some don't accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Jews: they don't believe he was the messiah because he did not fulfill all of the prophecies. Islam aka Muslims: believe Jesus was merely a prophet. Not the son of God and he did not die for our sins. Atheist: they don't believe proof exist that God or Jesus existed. So they have all heard the message but rejected it. There is good in most religions but it is not the doing of good works that matter. According to the Bible you MUST believe in Jesus to be saved. Can you list any scriptures that say you can be saved without faith in Jesus? here is one that says you must:

Mark 16:16 Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

4) Do you know that God allowed and instructed his people to rape, slavery(people as property) and genocide? Even the killing of children?

5) cool

6) I never count the example of sodom because it's to vague as you said. but what about these scriptures that plainly speak against it:

Leviticus 18:22

"Do not practice homosexuality, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin

1 Timothy 1:8-10 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. ⁹ We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, ¹⁰ for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality

That is why it surprised me when you said you support gay marriage.

Do you feel that the closed mindedness of your Church community drove you away from Christianity in general?

No. I like the closed mindedness. If a person truly believes the Bible is the word of God then you accept it no matter what the world around you thinks. You don't water it down. You don't change the interpretation. You don't say it's out dated. The open mindedness of the Church is what pisses me off. many christians are pro gay. That is not supported by any scripture. Many christians live together but are not married. that is not supported by any scripture. many christians get divorced even when adultery is not the reason. that is not supported by any scripture. If it's the WORD OF GOD then you do what it says regardless of popular trends. I stopped believing for other reasons

Since you think other religions have good to offer, do you think other religions have books or teachings inspired by God?

Again i'm not trying to trap you or trick you. I just want to know what you think. So many just listen to what their pastor says but don't read and research themselves.

Thank you for response and those are good points. I don't have much time, but I will give a better explanation if you would like when I get home.

Oh, I completely understand that people only listen to their Pastors.

3. This is hard to explain. I do understand, in most Abrahamic religions, they have heard of Christ and don't consider him divine. I will get into this topic more when I get home.

But in context of the Mark and Corinthians passage, belief has more to it than an intellectual acceptance of doctrines. One can believe in their heart that Christ is the Savior without knowing it, or that is what I believe. There are scriptures to support the doctrine of an "Anonymous Christian" (more about this later).

4. Yes, I do know. More on this later.

6. The link I provided in the previous post gives very good information. As for those two scriptures, they are addressed in the link.

I am not sure what translation you are using for those, it seems like a more paraphrased translation. It is always helpful to look over a few translations of the Bible. So, here they are in the KJV:

1 Timothy(1:10) For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; (KJV)

Leviticus (18:22) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. (KJV)

(My interpretation: 1 Timothy(1:10) The word used for "defile themselves with mankind" is actually the first time it was ever used in Greek. It is literally a combination of two Greek words "Man" + "Bed". This can actually point to many things, this could refer to rapists, pedophiles, people that perform ritualistic sex acts. (all of which were very common at the time.)

Leviticus (18:22): If you look at the context of the chapter and the chapter before that and after that, it is talking about pagan sex rites. The verse right before it says not to sacrifice your children to Moloch. The wording in the Hebrew is actually "lay lying". Which could describe certain homosexual acts performed in a temple.)

As for your other question, yes I do think that other religions have books and teachings that are inspired by God. More on this later.

As for me, I was raised very liberal. Switched to Southern Baptist. Then a few years later switched back to a Mainline Protestant church. I do believe a doctrine should be supported by scripture and the Bible is inerrant. But I do have more "liberal" interpretation on certain passages.

Just curious, when you left your church, did you go agnostic or atheist? or did you join another religion?

Anyways, good questions.

@algorhythm511 Have you read any Bart Eherman or watched any of his debates? And what do make of him if you have?

@algorhythm511: Please touch on those points when you can. I'm neither atheist or agnostic. I believe in A Creator but I don't believe he inspired any books or religion. IMO: Creator made man. Man made religion/God

The Earth is not a closed system, that is correct.

If the universe is a closed system (which we dont have any reason to doubt) then yes entropy will continue to increase. However, we also need to keep in mind that the universe is expanding, and as such so is the maximum entropy. In fact, the maximum entropy is increasing faster than the entropy as space expands.

But that's all really besides the point in the Creationism vs Evolution debate. The whole argument about entropy made by Creationists comes from ignorance and faulty understanding of science.

@willpayton: It's mostly used by creationists who want to sound smart but don't actually understand entropy

No disrespect meant here but I don't know how people decide to be atheist. I get the Big Bang and all but who made that happen things don't appear out of nowhere.

I think you have it all backwards. Everyone is born an atheist, you only learn to believe in this or that god as you grow older... and usually as you become indoctrinated into the religion of your parents/tribe/state/etc. This is obvious simply by looking at the world today and the world in the past. People in "Christian" countries grow up to mostly be Christians, those in Muslim countries grow up to mostly be Muslims, and in the ancient world it was the same thing. People in ancient Greece grew up to mostly believe in the Olympian gods, and so on. The question is now how people decide to be atheist (although some do), but rather how they decide to not be atheists.

Your second sentence is flawed in several ways. First, it assumes that a someone ("who") must exist that "made" things. This is simply your assumption and not supported by evidence. Second, what exactly do you claim "appears" out of nowhere? There are only a few instances in physics that might qualify (and I doubt you're talking about those), but they are explained through what we know of the natural world. If you're talking about the universe, then even if we assume that it "appeared out of nowhere" then there's no reason to think that that happened through any supernatural means. Again, you should look to physics for your answers to how the universe works instead of fiction and fantasy.

Edit: I should say that in the above when I said "how they decide to not be atheists" I dont actually believe that most religious people make a conscious decision to believe. Since most people learn their religion when they are children, it's not a decision so much as it is something that's forced on them. Children are extremely impressionable and will grow up believing what they are taught. They dont really have much choice in this, at least not until they are old enough to think for themselves... but even then, their thought processes will already have been influenced by their upbringing.

I'm an agnostic. I don't know if there is a God(or gods), and really don't care if you have a faith in something or your an atheist. Believe what you want to believe.

@lordraiden: I have not. Back in the day, I probably would have. I am not into apologetics anymore.

However, he seems very similar to the works of the Jesus Seminar. I do believe the Bible is ultimately inerrant, but I do see the importance of textual criticism. I am much closer to Bruce Metzer in how I view the Bible. Who was Bart's Doctorial advisor.

@pooty: I will. I am not trying to avoid you. I am just pretty busy. I will get back to you either tonight or tomorrow morning. I just want to have my notes in front of me, so I can give you the best answer.

@ssjdarthplagueis: agnostic doesn't deal with belief, agnosticism deals with knowledge and what is deemed knowable. I'm an agnostic atheist

(Agnostic) doesn't know whether a god or gods exist or not,

(Atheist) doesn't currently believe in a God.

So in accordance with what you believe, you very well could be an atheist. If you believe there is a god, then you could be an agnostic theist, if you don't actively have faith in a "higher power" and have knowledge of other religions, then you by definition disbelieve those claims effectively making you atheist.

@comicdude360: In your post. In your own words. you said: things don't appear from no where." Where did God come from?

@algorhythm511: Take as long as you need. I'll be here

No worries, thanx for getting back.

Thansk for getting back to me on this one. So just to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the amount of entropy increasing doesn't lead to chaos as long as the maximum entropy potential is increasing at a faster rate? So is it like entropy works as a ratio rather than simply a straight up amount?

Again, I have little idea of what I'm talking about, so be merciful if I'm sounding like a moron, but I'm just trying to get a thumbnail idea of this concept so I can file it away as something to think about down the line.

Asking question is never a bad thing, especially when you're talking about complex questions like this. I'm always happy to contribute and answer questions when I have the time. I'll try to give you an answer...

When you said "chaos" I think you're talking about the heat death of the universe... the point at which all energy is so evenly distributed that there's not enough temperature or density gradients for work to be done. At that point, the universe is effectively dead (as long as it's a closed system). Now, true that in a closed system entropy increases. However, since the maximum entropy of the system will increase faster, this means that you continue to get gradients in temperature, which means you continue to get the ability to do work. But, that's a simple analysis, since there's many factors here like how black holes affect the system, as well as how the eventual expansion will tend to tear apart molecules and atoms.

BTW if you havent see the Science Thread, you might want to check it out. It was created not just to share interesting news and links, but also to ask and discuss stuff like this.

@willpayton: in other words

Entropy is how supes beat doomsday

Organized religion and dogma are far worse than individual religious belief. If you need to believe in some kind of creator or benevolent force in the universe, sure have your wishful thinking. But when you start saying it was clearly this god who wrote this book telling us all how we should live your crazy starts to show.

Yup.

Great observation; Jesus appeared to me in a dream last week (maybe a near death experience); He appeared to me as I was apparently at the edge of Heaven; I had lots of questions I wanted to ask and I wanted to explore things, but I was still in awe, when I had to wake up. It was a fascinating response for my desire to have God appear to me at a critical moment. God is so good and thank you Jesus.

Just to point out an observation, modern Cosmology says nothing about the existence of God; at best, it's at the beginning stages of answering how God created the Universe, not whether He created the Universe or not. Secular scientists pretends to it has ruled God out, when it actually says nothing about God; just that the Universe had a beginning and the mechanism by which the Universe started to come into existence and than started expanding, beginning with the process of Inflation; the Bible actually speaks about these, including language that implies the expanding and Inflation of the Universe.