Religion… What do you think?

-Racob has truly spoken.

@theamazingbatman: you still have to give me your argument for the existence of a god, but I am perfectly ok with you trying to prove that the Quran is the word of Allah. Your choice, go ahead and start with what you prefer.

Enjoy!

I don't think anyone's missing the big picture. The point is that if God is truly omnipotent, he could do all that without letting people suffer. If you're omnipotent, why can't you have free will and no evil at the same time?

And frankly it's a perfectly reasonable criticism, one religion has never managed to adequately answer. The Problem of Evil has tortured theologians for over two thousand years and continues to do so today. Dismissing it out of hand by yelling "BIG PICTURE" seems incredibly naive to me.

Yep , I'll do my best to prove it tomorrow.

I agree with almost everything he says. it's all part of God's plan. However, Just because God knows what you will doesn't mean he's hindering your choice to do it. In this, You could argue free will is an illusion but all the same since we lack his foresight and we aren't literally being controlled i still think it's free will. I also disagree with the sarcastic negative slant here... No rapist shouldn't get a cookie, and no one is "blameless" for their actions... being aware of your actions isn't the same as forcing you to do them.

Free will an no evil doesn't make sense. First of all no evil would distort our definition of evil. If no one ever raped or murdered, we'd be jailing people for name calling or something. or anytime someone feels upset, the cause would be considered "evil" therefore God would have to eliminate negative emotions as well.

Secondly this is a huge violation of free will. If i don't have the choice between right and wrong, then how is it a choice? if choosing God is my only option then it defeats the purpose or existing and living. For example if you took a test and the teacher circled all the right answers for you and white out the wrong ones, then you can only pass.... and the test is meaningless.

Finally through suffering salvation is a much greater reward. It's like inheriting money vs working hard for it. You appreciate it more knowing there was a climb, and that not everyone was able achieve what you did. Those that suffer the most trails are granted the greatest mercy if they seek it.

@theamazingbatman:

Quran 16:93 If Allah so willed, He could make you all one people. But He leaves straying whom He pleases and He guides whom He pleases

What's this supposed to prove??

It proves that Allah predetermines who he will save. Nothing we do matters because Allah will guide who he pleases.

What are the contradictiona in the Quran portion???

1)Once verse says we decide whether we believe. the second says allah determines whether you believe.

2) one verse says allah causes evil. another says we bring evil upon ourselves

3) one verse says forgive and preach to the unbelievers. another says kill them

4) one verse says "if people don't believe then let them be. another says fight them until everyone is islam

5) in a previous post you said women and men are equal in Islam. Not true. men get double the inheritance. It takes 2 female witnesses to equal one male witness. men are allowed to have multiple wives. but women can't have multiple husbands. men are allowed to beat their wives. no equality there

Why can't God make it make sense? Omnipotence, right? The rest of your post quite silly. We could do that, or we could just, you know, not send people to jail. Because we wouldn't have the concept of evil.

Why can't God make it so that it isn't a huge violation of free will? Omnipotence right? Likewise the idea that my only choices are God or evil is insane in and of itself. I am can denounce God and still be a benevolent human being.

Why can't God make it so- Look, I trust you see the pattern here. All the explanations you've put forth are perfectly reasonable if applied to a limited flawed being that works within a human (and even modern, western) social and moral framework. Not an absolute, omnipotent being that works beyond human existence.

It's funny, I suppose. The only way to justify God allowing evil to happen to humans, is to make him more human. Fascinating, but not an answer to a three thousand year question that even the bible itself has trouble addressing.

@yodaprime: The point of the video went over your head.

Lemme explain it.

If a child is conceived during rape, and God plans the child's conception, then that means that God needed rape for his plan to work. If God needed rape for his plan to work then that means God need a rapist for his plan to work. If God truly needed that rapist, then the rapist assisted God with his plan. If the rapist helped God with his plan, then he needs a cookie because he is doing what God wants. *Joker voice* Like a good Christian. *Joker laugh*

God doesn't need anything.. he takes these actions in account. It's clearly not what he wanted to happen, but rather what he expected. So no the rapist should still be punished.

Nice try. But I'm on you.

God didn't just expect it to happen he knew it would happen but chose not to stop it in order for the child to be conceived. Because it fit's the premise.

The premise for the plan is that the child will be conceived from rape. This is the only way that the child can be born. In which case the only way for the child to be born is for the mother to be raped. In order for the mother to be raped a rapist is obviously required. That is the only way for the plan to work.

When i say "need", think of it as a way to signify everything as a tool. Just like in order for the plan to work God "needs" there to be a female getting raped. Stop trying to take "need" out of context.

lol humans without trails and sins would just be mortal angels right? ah so basically you're saying, why can't God just have just cut out the middle man and only made angels instead of humans? a decent question i suppose. One no one can possibly know the answer to. But in theory, this wouldn't have been satisfactory.

Obviously God has the power to make us perfect. But, doing such would defeat the point of creating us at all.

So in order for your argument to work we have to be less human..

God doesn't exist, in any form. Your delusions don't translate to objective reality. Challenge me on this if you will, but don't cry If the double dose of logic and scientific reasoning render you to require excessive burn creams n' such.

no... no it's not.. you're limiting God... he knew it would happen and accounted for it. If it would have happened another way he would have accounted for that too. He doesn't need certain stuff to happen for his plan to work, he knew what would happen and created the plan accordingly. He's not personally orchestrating events on that level... only things of biblical significance.

@theamazingbatman: since when have we been talking about Islamic morals? You said God predetermined Death, which means no matter how someone died, it is the way "god" wanted. This basically destroys the idea of free will..

Yes....yes it is. I'm on you.

YOUR'RE limiting God by saying everything that happens is a part of his plan.

What you are saying would make sense if children were never conceived after a rape but they are. in which case their conception was apart of God's plan. Right? If it wasn't apart of the plan then it wouldn't have happened. Think about it.

Imagine a woman is raped and is now with child. That means that the only way the child was conceived was through the rape. Without that rape then she wouldn't be with child. your mind = blown

well here your confusing "the only way the child was conceived" with "the only way the child could have been conceived"... Imagine a man with free will. With that free will he rapes. An offspring is a result. God knew that would happen and included it into his plan. Imagine that same man with his free will choosing not to rape. God knew that would happen as well and included it into his plan. So yes i agree with you that said rape is part of the plan but no it did not need to happen that way. given that we have free will, he is aware it will happen and already worked around it. Allowing the rape to take place and orchestrating it so that it does are not the same.

If someone told you the exact details, when where, and how they were gonna murder someone You can do whatever you want with that information. But there are literally infinite amount of ripple effects as to what you do or don't do that we can't possibly plot out. If you did have the capacity and foresight to take the action that leads to the best possible ultimate outcome, (even if that means letting that person get murdered so that their great great great grandchild doesn't grow into another Hitler) does that mean you're okay with assassination? absolutely not... But this scenario relates it in human terms.. God's plan i'm quite sure goes beyond stopping future Hitlers.

Every step we take have a multitude of ripples that we can't possibly see or account for. God knows all of them and has included them into the sum of humanity and will make it all amount to something. The ultimate understanding may come during the commencements of the rapture.

@yodaprime: You didn't answer anything I said. You are adding in extra stuff to get off topic. Nothing you said explained anything.

God knew that Joey would be conceived from a rape. Joey's DNA is that of the rapist at that exact moment. Without that DNA then the baby wouldn't be Joey it'd be Dave. A completely different person.

In order for Joey to be conceived, his mom had to be raped. I explained the rest of the order which ultimately leads to the rapist getting a cookie. You have not said anything countering this.

I remember I got into a debate with these seriously anti-religious people on YouTube and it was just ridiculous.

I think everyone's problem with the Abrahamic God is that he's meant to be flawless, yet his actions/decisions go against this. So my questions would be this:

1) For believers: If God/Allah was actually flawed and actually more like an incredibly powerful human, would you still have faith in him and his associated religion? Do you need him to be omnipotent, omnibenevolent etc.?

2) For non-believers, if God was flawed and limited, would your views of him change? Essentially, the problems seems to be that the Bible/Quran says he's supposed one thing, while his actions seem to imply something else. So if His actions supported what he really was, would there be a problem with a superior being?

@theamazingbatman: What a bleak way at looking at things. So if your mother was suffering from cancer and she only had weeks to live, would you look her in the eye and tell it is all a test?

I mean it sounds like you are saying it is better off to die than to live. Again that makes no sense.

Are you guys athiest?

@marvel_boy2241: that middle part is right. Otherwise I explained why that's irrelevant. And that accounting for the rape and desiring it aren't the same. I guess we'll agree to disagree for lack of understanding each other.

If there was gonna be a Dave he would have made his plans include that instead. His plans aren't necessarily based on what he wants us to do, but what we will do.

If you're a criminal and I know that you're gonna rob someone, and I plan around it, you don't deserve a reward for proving me right and going through with it.

@oblivionknight: I like those questions in post 12770. I believe in a Creator but not any version of God. The Creator May be perfect or all wise. Or he May be like The Beyonder. Being all powerful but purely logical. and created us with emotions as an experiment. I HONESTLY feel that many have rejected the idea of a Creator because they hate how God is described in the Bible. If religious people accepted that their version of God is not flawless. And stopped making excuses for God. Many people would be more prone to the idea of a Creator.

Here's a reality example to answer your question, with this question: why do some people get accepted by an Ivy League school but others don't get accepted? Basically, what you're trying to say is that the people who got into the Ivy League school should suffer non-existence because some people could not get into the Ivy League school (or the rest of society should not exist for the people who are doing prison time); would that approach be fair and just? Why not also focus on the people who kept God's Commandments and were rewarded, as promised? Yes, one of the most just things that God did was allow the people who existed to exist, even though some will free will themselves into Hell and free will themselves into refusing to accept Jesus in His claimed role.

Again, Hell is not so much intended to be a place of suffering to delight God so much as it's a place where you (e.g. the willingly unsaved) can exist away from God's presence, as I've already explained. Saying that life is a test by God is very logically, because God will have to judge you before you're cast into Hell; God just wants to leave you speechless at the time of your judgement for what justified His choice in your judgement.

no. If God were superman i wouldn't worship him. I'd admire him... But worship requires a ton of trust. i can't trust him on that level if knowing he can be wrong, embody the 7sins or go rogue.

Addressing the underlined part. Hell is SPECIFICALLY a place of burning and suffering and torment. It's not just a place void of God. Just because God is not around does not automatically cause a location to burst into flames. He created Hell on purpose. before any was ever sent there, God created it to be a burning place of torment. The major problem with this is that God can kill the soul. He could easily get rid of the non-believers. but he prefers to torture them. Even if we choose to reject God why does he prefer our torment over death. The wages sin pays is death. not everlasting torment.

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death

and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Also, since the penalty is so severe, God should make it clear which religion is correct. You say the Bible. @theamazingbatman says Islam. What kind of God tells you, you can go to hell but won't tell you what religion is the one the will keep you out of hell? Since he doesn't make his choice clear, we won't be speechless. we'll say "I picked the one I thought was right. I picked the one I thought you approved. I'm human born into sin. It's not my fault you didn't make the right religion clear."

@dshipp17: the Ivy league has no control over how worthy the candidates are. God made us in a way that we could only get into heaven by passing a test that we are ill equiped to pass. Also, if he loved us, why would he want the punishment to be so severe even if the crime was so small?

Yea hell might not actually be a literal place of fire.. It could just be a state of mind for the soul.. like dementia. The "fire" in the bible could easily be metaphorical/symbolic. The jury is still out on what hell really is, but the chief punishment is separation from God.

What jury is out? The jury who wants to make up stuff to make it seem like hell isn't so bad.? Going by the words in the bible, not doctrines of man, hell is a place of eternal fiery torment. It states that plainly many times. Should I show more scriptures proving the point?

Geist worship is acceptable.

The people best equipped at interpreting the bible. Most of the meaning is not obvious.

What scriptures support your theory that hell is a state of mind? Please present them

@pootyThis, This , This , This

That's because the criminals actions wont help you in any way. If the criminal was going to take a precious diamond that would eventually be used in a death ray, then you would need the thief to take it to avoid the death ray. Which means the thief deserves a cookie.

You didn't read those pages did you? Those speak of different aspects of hell but many of them still talk about eternal fire and torture. A place God created to punish us. Most of them still talk about a place involving fire and torture. Not one of them speak of it being all in your head. And if it is all in your head then it is another example of CONTRADICTIONS in the Bible. For arguments sake let's say it's not fire. Lets say it's all in your head. it's still torture. it's still being punished forever. You may still be punished for wrongs that you didn't know was wrong. such as choosing Christianity when Scientology was the correct religion. or choosing Islam when Buddism was correct. Is it fair for God to punish us when he allowed many options and didn't clarify the correct one?

I think nope.

Yes. It's our job to decipher.

Symbolism isn't a contradiction. It makes sense that God/Jesus would put things in relative terms. I pretty sure saying "you'll go super crazy" doesn't sound as poetically threatening than "you will experience a horrible burning of your soul for all eternity."

Fire = hot has will always be more easily understood and feared than mental/emotional unrest.

So It also makes sense that what he's saying is your mental unrest will be so heavy, it will be as if you are on fire.

Lmao i think you're the one who's "mind is blown" ... he didn't need the rape to happen it was preemptively put into consideration.

The world is a book God has written after he already read it.

But i'm tired of arguing it so lets say i agree with you.

Let's say the rapist helps fulfill God's plan. What if God's plan is to set forth the rapture and he explains to the chosen ones "see how you rape and destroy eachother? now i will rid of earth." That rapist just gave God Ammo to use when he's explaining why most of us are terrible. So he still doesn't deserve a reward for helping God's plan he should burn for proving God right.

i Can't tell them they are wrong. There may be those who are but I am not without all doubt. they could be right. I just believe i am. I'm aware i could be wrong. But i trust what knowledge and experience i do have and go from there. There very well could be no God at all. But that's not what i believe.

call it denial, guesswork, blind faith or whatever you want.

But i call it intuition.

Once again.. we all could be wrong about everything.

That doesnt make all beliefs equal, in the sense of having the same chance of being true. Beliefs are a dime a dozen, but there's only one truth. Any religion, by the very nature of religion, is more likely to be false than true. That's just simple math.

You can believe whatever you want, but wishful thinking does not truth make. This is why science works, because it concentrates on facts and observation, and not anecdotes, ancient stories, feelings, or personal experience.

lol aw lord here comes will payton to tell me i'm full of it.

yes because science is always right and doesn't involve feeling, bias and passed down "knowledge"

The very nature of humanity is centered around feeling. I hope the research you have such trust in was conducted by androids, because people lie, cheat, steal, and cut corners... kind of a lot. Not to mention often flat out wrong.

wasn't science not too long ago telling us DNA is useless, the earth is flat and 6k years old, and that alchemy is legit? just a few of the greatest hits...

Just because our technology allows our guesses to seem more reasonable doesn't make us right about anything. Most "facts" are temporary until we revamp it with a new discovery. in a thousand years they'll be calling our era a bunch of morons Too. .. that's just simple math

You might feel safe behind science but you're clueless bro. Just as much so. like it or not.

Ahh... nothing better than watching christians and Atheists kill each other online

Of course the Ivy Leagues have control of the standards by which they pick candidates; obviously, it's more of a case of the candidates having failed the likely criteria that causes their failure; God's criteria are perfect and unchanging, while the Ivy Leagues choose candidates by sometimes arbitrary values; God provides the Holy Spirit to ensure the willing's success, while the Ivy Leagues leave people to their own devices. Additionally, God will not get control of your freewill, even if your freewill will lead you to making a bad choice, but, providing the Holy Spirit as guidance is help enough.

The punishment is separation from God; so, all of the good attributes are removed with God, leaving all negative attributes; since mercy and peace are attributes associated with God, those attributes will be absent in a place void of God. Obviously, the concept of mercy cares if a situation is major or minor, or, at least related attributes care about those things, but they will be absent in a place designed to be void of God.

Which book is right is defined multiple times in the Bible; God, in the form of Jesus, made it official that the Bible is correct; in the Book of Revelation, the question of which Book is correct is settled, and that Book was directly told by Jesus; to Islam, Christians can counter with the Book of Mormon, but we hold the Mormons in no special regard; the Mormons believe that the Book of Mormon is the most recent inspiration of God, and its centuries newer than the Quran; don't you think if your argument had real merit, Christians (and monotheistic people) would have flocked to the Mormons in droves by now?

I've always believed 'God' is like Santa Clause for grown-ups.

@duchess: but... I thought Santa existed..... );

Yeah, what the hell is with all these anti-santaists these days? Unless proven otherwise, Santa does exist! If he doesn't, who is gonna give my baby son some gifts this Christmas? Me? Aw hell no!

@dshipp17: The correct book or the correct religion is NOT settled. Your Bible is just one of many books that says it's Gods Word. God has not verified not confirmed that the Bible is Gods word. You THINK your faith is right. You HOPE your religion is right. If you KNEW your religion was right then you wouldn't need faith. Faith is only needed when you're not sure of something. So no, You don't KNOW your faith is right. You're guessing like everyone else. And the age of a religion means nothing. Christianity was new at once. And Judaism has existed far longer then christianity. Your faith is only confirmed in your mind.