Religion… What do you think?

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theamazingbatman

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@theamazingbatman said:

@yodaprime said:

@theamazingbatman said:

Like what purposes ?? can you give an example??

i really dont know. it was never properly tought to me. in that way. But from my understanding... Jesus is the Son. (though since he co-existed with the father before we knew him as Jesus, he technically wasn't "the son" until after his mortal birth. This means "The son" in a way is like a nickname. We call him that to differentiate the 2 but they are both God. The holy spirit is a divine nature and is the "power" in which heals, and allows people to experience miracles. It's basically how people experience God for themselves. This is also God. This is the part of God that answers prayers. Father God is the wisdom. He is the one who does most of the talking and guidance. They all are equal though.

Who was Jesus' mother??

the virgin Mary. a Jewish Saint.

GOD MARRIED A HUMAN??????????

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@matteopg said:

@theamazingbatman: there is no particular reason. It's a massive cultural and anthropological phenomenon that I am no part of, but it is very widespread. That's one of the reasons why it is interesting.

It's interesting also considering the following: IF there is no god, why did humans feel the need to create such a notion? What fears does the notion of a god assuage?

I'm not saying that there is no god, I'm just considering what is the psychological process behind the creation of religion JUST IN CASE there is no god.

There is a God .

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YodaPrime

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#12603  Edited By YodaPrime

@yodaprime said:

@theamazingbatman said:

@yodaprime said:

@theamazingbatman said:

Like what purposes ?? can you give an example??

i really dont know. it was never properly tought to me. in that way. But from my understanding... Jesus is the Son. (though since he co-existed with the father before we knew him as Jesus, he technically wasn't "the son" until after his mortal birth. This means "The son" in a way is like a nickname. We call him that to differentiate the 2 but they are both God. The holy spirit is a divine nature and is the "power" in which heals, and allows people to experience miracles. It's basically how people experience God for themselves. This is also God. This is the part of God that answers prayers. Father God is the wisdom. He is the one who does most of the talking and guidance. They all are equal though.

Who was Jesus' mother??

the virgin Mary. a Jewish Saint.

GOD MARRIED A HUMAN??????????

lol there was no marriage. he selected a human to Birth Jesus.

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MatteoPG

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@theamazingbatman: well, if it was that obvious this thread wouldn't be that long :)

You can't state that with absolute certainty. I never claimed that there is no god, I just said that, since there is no reliable evidence for it, you have to chose whether to believe or to not. I chose not to. Of course I might be wrong, but I made my choice for a reason.

So, to go back on track, those are some of the reasons I find religion interesting.

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theamazingbatman

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@theamazingbatman said:

@yodaprime said:

@theamazingbatman said:

@yodaprime said:

@theamazingbatman said:

Like what purposes ?? can you give an example??

i really dont know. it was never properly tought to me. in that way. But from my understanding... Jesus is the Son. (though since he co-existed with the father before we knew him as Jesus, he technically wasn't "the son" until after his mortal birth. This means "The son" in a way is like a nickname. We call him that to differentiate the 2 but they are both God. The holy spirit is a divine nature and is the "power" in which heals, and allows people to experience miracles. It's basically how people experience God for themselves. This is also God. This is the part of God that answers prayers. Father God is the wisdom. He is the one who does most of the talking and guidance. They all are equal though.

Who was Jesus' mother??

the virgin Mary. a Jewish Saint.

GOD MARRIED A HUMAN??????????

lol there was no marriage. he selected a human to Birth Jesus.

OH ok , i thought that there was a marriage :P

@matteopg said:

@theamazingbatman: well, if it was that obvious this thread wouldn't be that long :)

You can't state that with absolute certainty. I never claimed that there is no god, I just said that, since there is no reliable evidence for it, you have to chose whether to believe or to not. I chose not to. Of course I might be wrong, but I made my choice for a reason.

So, to go back on track, those are some of the reasons I find religion interesting.

If god doesn't exist then who created the universe??

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MatteoPG

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@theamazingbatman: you know, the existence/non-existence of god has been debated for centuries (and 252 pages of this thread, lol). Usually it ends with one side getting mad. Often it works by using double standards and faulty logic (on both parts).

Are you sure you want to try and convince me? Because I have heard it all before.

If you really are interested we can discuss it, but I want you to promise to work with me, not against me. This isn't a competition, ok?

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theamazingbatman

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@matteopg said:

@theamazingbatman: you know, the existence/non-existence of god has been debated for centuries (and 252 pages of this thread, lol). Usually it ends with one side getting mad. Often it works by using double standards and faulty logic (on both parts).

Are you sure you want to try and convince me? Because I have heard it all before.

If you really are interested we can discuss it, but I want you to promise to work with me, not against me. This isn't a competition, ok?

Yep , I want to discuss it . I promise I won't get mad .

I do want to convince you :P

First you tell me what makes you think that there is no God??

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pooty

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Can anyone tell me that how come the son of God , who has so much power be crucified by some humans ??

@pooty@cable_extreme

Do you guys believe in souls?

No. I don't believe in souls either or the after life. If A Creator wanted us to live forever in spirit form he would have just made us spirits to begin with. Also, the Creator made us from the cheapest, least important material in the world. We should be happy with the few years he gave us and stop expecting more like we're something special. Also, no confirmed proof of the afterlife.

About the Trinity i agree with Islam. The Creator does not need a heir or help. The Almighty would never lower himself to human form. Nor can the Almighty die. Jesus even says:

Mark 13:32
"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone

If God and Jesus were the same the would have the EXACT same knowledge and the EXACT same qualities. Wouldn't you agree?

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theamazingbatman

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@pooty said:

@theamazingbatman said:

Can anyone tell me that how come the son of God , who has so much power be crucified by some humans ??

@pooty@cable_extreme

Do you guys believe in souls?

No. I don't believe in souls either or the after life. If A Creator wanted us to live forever in spirit form he would have just made us spirits to begin with. Also, the Creator made us from the cheapest, least important material in the world. We should be happy with the few years he gave us and stop expecting more like we're something special. Also, no confirmed proof of the afterlife.

About the Trinity i agree with Islam. The Creator does not need a heir or help. The Almighty would never lower himself to human form. Nor can the Almighty die. Jesus even says:

Mark 13:32

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone

If God and Jesus were the same the would have the EXACT same knowledge and the EXACT same qualities. Wouldn't you agree?

Yep , God doesn't need any help .

I agree that jesus and God were not the same .

The after life is something other than spirit world . After we die , we will have to account for the things we did on Earth and if we did more good on earth then we'll go to heaven and we'll be forever rewarded on the other hand , if we did more bad on this earth than good , then we'll be punished for an eternity in Hell .

We are special . That's why he gave us Earth and everything on Earth .

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#12610  Edited By Cable_Extreme

@theamazingbatman: Why does the universe have to be a creation? There are scientific explanations that can explain the universe without a creator. The fact that you ask "then who created the universe" is a based question.

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theamazingbatman

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@theamazingbatman: Why does the universe have to be a creation? There are scientific explanations that can explain the universe without a creator. The fact that you ask "then who created the universe" is a based question.

There is someone who created the universe and how is everything so balanced in the universe if it formed out of nothing ?

Can science explain how the universe came into existence??

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@theamazingbatman: ok, let's see how this goes XD

I will tell you on the basis of what I keep some things as knowledge and what doesn't pass that test. This will be a long explaination, so please bear with me.

I RULE: I live by experience. If I experience something and everybody I met experiences the same thing, then it is true (as far as we humans can conceive).
Example: I know fire burns because I experienced it and nobody ever told me "no, I can sleep on a burning campfire with ease".

II RULE: the more something conforms to stuff I already know, the easier it is to believe it, even if I haven't experienced it.
Example: I have never seen Seattle, but I do have experience that other cities exist and that the USA exist, and so does everybody that I know. There is nothing particuarly exotic about a city on the other side of the world because there are cities here.

III RULE: if something is verifiable, given an instrument that anybody could use or be taught to use (and that I know it exists) then I tend to put my trust in it.
Example: getting back to Seattle. Millions of people have been to, photographed (an instrument that I know how it works and I could use) and left their inprint on Seattle, so I believe that it is there even though I've never been. I could get there with a plane, something I have done tons of times. So there is no reason to doubt the existence of Seattle.
Example: I know that infrared light exists because I can go down to a laboratory and see it with the right instrument. It requires some knowledge, of course, but that can be acquired by studying and verifying the basics.

IV RULE: I trust notions that are built on experiences and on other verified notions. Also, this can be compounded with the II rule.
Example: I know that fire burns, so I assume that fire will burn most organic stuff. This is coherent with the fact that I have seen stuff burn and that I can verify that readily with the right instruments. Nothing weird about knowing that oak wood can burn, once I have seen other wood burn.

V RULE: if something is a very original notion and it departs from my experience, I take it with caution until it is thoroughly verified.
Example: my boss, my first day of work, told me we could visualize single fluorescent molecules with a resolution of 5-10 nm. I found this very hard to believe. So I went to the lab and made a series of experiments. Each of these experiments was based on stuff I had verified (III rule) and stuff that I knew based on other consolidated notions (IV rule).
At the end of the week, I had successfully visualized my first single molecule.

VI RULE: for me to consider something true, it must be repeatable every time I want. Not just a couple of times or when others decide that I can go and check.
Example: every time I put my hand on fire, it burns.
Example: every time I get on a plan, it flies. Every time a plane doesn't fly, there's a reason why it's not working properly.
Example: every time I do the correct procedure, I am able to see single molecules through my experiments. If I change the key factors, I won't be able to see them.
I can do any of these things when I want, as many times I want.

VII RULE: if an information is new and I can't verify it or I don't know anything about the subject (or not enough to make a definite decision) I go to sources that have been compiled with a critical eye. I don't trust a source just because it's written. I read books that have been scrutinized by people who wanted to shut them down.
Also, I always always alwasy go read something that claims the opposite and put them to the same scrutiny.
Example: the Higgs Boson exists? I am not a particle physicist, so I can't know and I don't have the immediate means to verify. So I read the experiments of the team who claims it does. These experiments were checked and were verified dozens of times with the intent of disproving them (verifying something you wish was true is not a great process) and they always turned out to be true. The scientists that did them are highly qualified and are held to a rigid scrutiny in everything they do. So I have no real reason to say that the Higgs Boson doesn't exist. Also, nobody stated any facts that would go logically against the existence of the Higgs Boson.
Of course, If I wanted to, I could also get a PhD in physics and go check by myself. It would be a long process, but I know that I can do it, if I choose: this kind of reassures me about the truth in the statement.

VIII RULE: nothing has to be ever proven NOT to be. You can't prove a negative. You can't prove that I'm not an alien who appears to be human. But such a notion isn't supported by any of the previous rules, so until we have some proof of it it's very very safe to consider it false.
IMPORTANT: this is the same way that we know that vampires, unicorns and fairies don't exist.

THESE RULES...

...are not made up. Even if they don't realize it, people don't believe anything without using these rules UNLESS (important) they have an interest in believing it. For example, chiromancers have an interest in believing that horoscopes work, even though it is firmly established (by any of those common sense rules) that they don't. Same goes for politicians and corrupt scientists ;)

NOW, TO GOD

The existence of a god does not asnwer to any of those criteria.

I RULE: I never experienced god, neither have any of the people I have known. Some people claim to have had an actual experience with god, but those experiences are not verifiable or repeatable (see points below). Basically it's a very narrow number of people who claim to have had contact with the actual god (and even among those people the tales differ wildly).

II RULE: the existence of a god doesn't conform to anything we have readily knowledge of. It would be a being/force unlike any other that doesn't follow any of the rules that govern everything we can actually experience. No other entity has ever been found that behaves in the same way.

III RULE: god is not verifiable by everyone with a mean known to everyone, not even by actual study. There is no instrument or process that lets you gain access to an experience with god reliably and verifiably. Most people that try the same prayer don't see god, nor do those who perform the same rituals. These witnesses are scattered and uneven.
Example: if somebody tells me that they are lucky, as in stuff always go well for them, a quick way to verify it would be to have them play a lot of dice games. If this person gets an average amount of results, but still claims to have had lucky streaks when I wasn't watching, I have no reason to believe him.

IV RULE: the existence of a god can't be built on anything else, because its presence is unkowable and misterious. There is no path through verifiable notions that gets you to the conclusion that god must exist.
IMPORTANT: such a route should be so that you have to make NO ASSUMPTIONS besides the fact that if everybody experiences the same thing in the same conditions, then it's true. For example, I can arrive to the conclusion of how radiowaves work because I can study physics... but the cool thing is that everything that I am thought can be verified first hand, I never have to take anything for granted. And so can another million people doing it with me, no exceptions.

V RULE: god is a far departure from any other notion. But, as we have seen, cannot be verified in a strandard and repeteable manner, you can only try to guess and rely on persona impressions.

VI RULE: there has never been a religious experience (not spontaneous remitions at Lourdes... those are explained by common science; I mean something that is unmistakably supernatural, like an appearance or something unexplained by our understanding of the world) that can be reproduced. They are always tales of lonely encounters and prophetic dreams that have no way of being repeated or verified.

VII RULE: sources claiming to be able to demonstrate the existence of god always come from religious people, which are hardly unbiased and have a lot to gain from such a demonstration.
Also, if you go and check the facts they use to demonstrate their points, you can find them to be false. I have tried many times.

VIII RULE: if there is no proof nor evidence of a god, I don't need to disprove it. Belief of many doesn't imply existence.


IN CONCLUSION

As I said, I choose to only ankowledge as real those things that stand to all of those rules. It's the way the baby mind works, the way humans are now able to fly and trasmit data at these speeds... and it's the way you know how not to die! Self-preservation is based on pain-avoidance and knowledge of threats, which are based on direct experience.

With all of this said, if there is a god (and again, I never said there is no god definetely, I just said that I don't believe in it), it's completely outside of these rules. You have to bypass logic and direct experience and believe unverifiable, unrepeatable stories to be able to believe in god.

And that's not the way I live my life.

I should clarify: I don't think that belief is stupid. I think it's a feeling like many others. It is neither good or bad unless it leads you to damaging yourself or others. And of course religion doesn't do that, so it's not inherently bad or good.

I am perfectly ok with other people believing. I just don't :)

P.S. I am so sorry this was this long. I wanted to give you my best written account of the way I personally reasoned and elaborated my spiritual side.

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theamazingbatman

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@matteopg said:

@theamazingbatman: ok, let's see how this goes XD

I will tell you on the basis of what I keep some things as knowledge and what doesn't pass that test. This will be a long explaination, so please bear with me.

I RULE: I live by experience. If I experience something and everybody I met experiences the same thing, then it is true (as far as we humans can conceive).

Example: I know fire burns because I experienced it and nobody ever told me "no, I can sleep on a burning campfire with ease".

II RULE: the more something conforms to stuff I already know, the easier it is to believe it, even if I haven't experienced it.

Example: I have never seen Seattle, but I do have experience that other cities exist and that the USA exist, and so does everybody that I know. There is nothing particuarly exotic about a city on the other side of the world because there are cities here.

III RULE: if something is verifiable, given an instrument that anybody could use or be taught to use (and that I know it exists) then I tend to put my trust in it.

Example: getting back to Seattle. Millions of people have been to, photographed (an instrument that I know how it works and I could use) and left their inprint on Seattle, so I believe that it is there even though I've never been. I could get there with a plane, something I have done tons of times. So there is no reason to doubt the existence of Seattle.

Example: I know that infrared light exists because I can go down to a laboratory and see it with the right instrument. It requires some knowledge, of course, but that can be acquired by studying and verifying the basics.

IV RULE: I trust notions that are built on experiences and on other verified notions. Also, this can be compounded with the II rule.

Example: I know that fire burns, so I assume that fire will burn most organic stuff. This is coherent with the fact that I have seen stuff burn and that I can verify that readily with the right instruments. Nothing weird about knowing that oak wood can burn, once I have seen other wood burn.

V RULE: if something is a very original notion and it departs from my experience, I take it with caution until it is thoroughly verified.

Example: my boss, my first day of work, told me we could visualize single fluorescent molecules with a resolution of 5-10 nm. I found this very hard to believe. So I went to the lab and made a series of experiments. Each of these experiments was based on stuff I had verified (III rule) and stuff that I knew based on other consolidated notions (IV rule).

At the end of the week, I had successfully visualized my first single molecule.

VI RULE: for me to consider something true, it must be repeatable every time I want. Not just a couple of times or when others decide that I can go and check.

Example: every time I put my hand on fire, it burns.

Example: every time I get on a plan, it flies. Every time a plane doesn't fly, there's a reason why it's not working properly.

Example: every time I do the correct procedure, I am able to see single molecules through my experiments. If I change the key factors, I won't be able to see them.

I can do any of these things when I want, as many times I want.

VII RULE: if an information is new and I can't verify it or I don't know anything about the subject (or not enough to make a definite decision) I go to sources that have been compiled with a critical eye. I don't trust a source just because it's written. I read books that have been scrutinized by people who wanted to shut them down.

Also, I always always alwasy go read something that claims the opposite and put them to the same scrutiny.

Example: the Higgs Boson exists? I am not a particle physicist, so I can't know and I don't have the immediate means to verify. So I read the experiments of the team who claims it does. These experiments were checked and were verified dozens of times with the intent of disproving them (verifying something you wish was true is not a great process) and they always turned out to be true. The scientists that did them are highly qualified and are held to a rigid scrutiny in everything they do. So I have no real reason to say that the Higgs Boson doesn't exist. Also, nobody stated any facts that would go logically against the existence of the Higgs Boson.

Of course, If I wanted to, I could also get a PhD in physics and go check by myself. It would be a long process, but I know that I can do it, if I choose: this kind of reassures me about the truth in the statement.

VIII RULE: nothing has to be ever proven NOT to be. You can't prove a negative. You can't prove that I'm not an alien who appears to be human. But such a notion isn't supported by any of the previous rules, so until we have some proof of it it's very very safe to consider it false.

IMPORTANT: this is the same way that we know that vampires, unicorns and fairies don't exist.

THESE RULES...

...are not made up. Even if they don't realize it, people don't believe anything without using these rules UNLESS (important) they have an interest in believing it. For example, chiromancers have an interest in believing that horoscopes work, even though it is firmly established (by any of those common sense rules) that they don't. Same goes for politicians and corrupt scientists ;)

NOW, TO GOD

The existence of a god does not asnwer to any of those criteria.

I RULE: I never experienced god, neither have any of the people I have known. Some people claim to have had an actual experience with god, but those experiences are not verifiable or repeatable (see points below). Basically it's a very narrow number of people who claim to have had contact with the actual god (and even among those people the tales differ wildly).

II RULE: the existence of a god doesn't conform to anything we have readily knowledge of. It would be a being/force unlike any other that doesn't follow any of the rules that govern everything we can actually experience. No other entity has ever been found that behaves in the same way.

III RULE: god is not verifiable by everyone with a mean known to everyone, not even by actual study. There is no instrument or process that lets you gain access to an experience with god reliably and verifiably. Most people that try the same prayer don't see god, nor do those who perform the same rituals. These witnesses are scattered and uneven.

Example: if somebody tells me that they are lucky, as in stuff always go well for them, a quick way to verify it would be to have them play a lot of dice games. If this person gets an average amount of results, but still claims to have had lucky streaks when I wasn't watching, I have no reason to believe him.

IV RULE: the existence of a god can't be built on anything else, because its presence is unkowable and misterious. There is no path through verifiable notions that gets you to the conclusion that god must exist.

IMPORTANT: such a route should be so that you have to make NO ASSUMPTIONS besides the fact that if everybody experiences the same thing in the same conditions, then it's true. For example, I can arrive to the conclusion of how radiowaves work because I can study physics... but the cool thing is that everything that I am thought can be verified first hand, I never have to take anything for granted. And so can another million people doing it with me, no exceptions.

V RULE: god is a far departure from any other notion. But, as we have seen, cannot be verified in a strandard and repeteable manner, you can only try to guess and rely on persona impressions.

VI RULE: there has never been a religious experience (not spontaneous remitions at Lourdes... those are explained by common science; I mean something that is unmistakably supernatural, like an appearance or something unexplained by our understanding of the world) that can be reproduced. They are always tales of lonely encounters and prophetic dreams that have no way of being repeated or verified.

VII RULE: sources claiming to be able to demonstrate the existence of god always come from religious people, which are hardly unbiased and have a lot to gain from such a demonstration.

Also, if you go and check the facts they use to demonstrate their points, you can find them to be false. I have tried many times.

VIII RULE: if there is no proof nor evidence of a god, I don't need to disprove it. Belief of many doesn't imply existence.

IN CONCLUSION

As I said, I choose to only ankowledge as real those things that stand to all of those rules. It's the way the baby mind works, the way humans are now able to fly and trasmit data at these speeds... and it's the way you know how not to die! Self-preservation is based on pain-avoidance and knowledge of threats, which are based on direct experience.

With all of this said, if there is a god (and again, I never said there is no god definetely, I just said that I don't believe in it), it's completely outside of these rules. You have to bypass logic and direct experience and believe unverifiable, unrepeatable stories to be able to believe in god.

And that's not the way I live my life.

I should clarify: I don't think that belief is stupid. I think it's a feeling like many others. It is neither good or bad unless it leads you to damaging yourself or others. And of course religion doesn't do that, so it's not inherently bad or good.

I am perfectly ok with other people believing. I just don't :)

P.S. I am so sorry this was this long. I wanted to give you my best written account of the way I personally reasoned and elaborated my spiritual side.

Oh man , too long .

I'm kind of busy today .

Will read it when ever I find the time :P

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MatteoPG

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@theamazingbatman: I guessed as much, I am really sorry for the long post. I tried to give you the best discussed argument I have ever made here on CV. :s

If you want I might try to reduce it a little bit, but we would probably end up discussing the details I already wrote in later posts.

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theamazingbatman

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No Problem . I'll read it as soon as I am free .

Nah , don't reduce it.

Anyway this is really your best argument??

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pooty

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@pooty said:

@theamazingbatman said:

Can anyone tell me that how come the son of God , who has so much power be crucified by some humans ??

@pooty@cable_extreme

Do you guys believe in souls?

No. I don't believe in souls either or the after life. If A Creator wanted us to live forever in spirit form he would have just made us spirits to begin with. Also, the Creator made us from the cheapest, least important material in the world. We should be happy with the few years he gave us and stop expecting more like we're something special. Also, no confirmed proof of the afterlife.

About the Trinity i agree with Islam. The Creator does not need a heir or help. The Almighty would never lower himself to human form. Nor can the Almighty die. Jesus even says:

Mark 13:32

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone

If God and Jesus were the same the would have the EXACT same knowledge and the EXACT same qualities. Wouldn't you agree?

Yep , God doesn't need any help .

I agree that jesus and God were not the same .

The after life is something other than spirit world . After we die , we will have to account for the things we did on Earth and if we did more good on earth then we'll go to heaven and we'll be forever rewarded on the other hand , if we did more bad on this earth than good , then we'll be punished for an eternity in Hell .

We are special . That's why he gave us Earth and everything on Earth .

He could just let our physical form be perfect on a perfect earth as a reward. If he wanted he could make our physical form immortal. As said there is no evidence that a soul is inside us. Also, allowing people to suffer for eternity is not justice. When you think of a person who allows torture, Allah comes to mind? Your God allows endless pain and suffering? I know you say we choose hell. But what kind of being would even allow such a place to exist? Why not just kill our soul? Put unbelievers out of our misery. What benefit is there to letting souls be tortured forever? He also gave dogs, goats and insects the earth. Nothing special there

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dshipp17

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#12617  Edited By dshipp17

@matteopg said:

@dshipp17: I don't think I got all of your points. Where would I be relying on something coming from nothing?

Also, can you show me these studies of people coming back after 6 hours of apparent death?

By the way I think you don't know this studies, if I may say. I was not only referring to the studies about near-death experiences, but also on brain chemistry, functional MRI during religious experiences and others as well.

I'm somewhat aware of these studies, from what you believed I was aware of, to the MRI studies, in summary form; I didn't study them more extensively, due to the stress causing time constraints in my life; what allowed me to breakaway so quickly, and continue to accept what I know about the near death experience examples that I rely upon were the time frames for neuro-processes to have still been functioning; if neuro-processes are expected to have ceased in the subject, than the scientific data supporting these studies would be invalid to the near death experiences relied upon by Christians; these studies represent the beginnings by scientists in the area of near death experiences, except it rests upon certain presumptions that neuro processing was still possible in the subject. Below is an experience and an experience, with scientific references supporting the actual near death experience relied upon by Christians.

Loading Video...

Loading Video...

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deactivated-579e79a09210d

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Believe in what you want, I couldn't care less. I just wish other people thought that as well.

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YodaPrime

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@pooty said:

He could just let our physical form be perfect on a perfect earth as a reward. If he wanted he could make our physical form immortal. As said there is no evidence that a soul is inside us. Also, allowing people to suffer for eternity is not justice. When you think of a person who allows torture, Allah comes to mind? Your God allows endless pain and suffering? I know you say we choose hell. But what kind of being would even allow such a place to exist? Why not just kill our soul? Put unbelievers out of our misery. What benefit is there to letting souls be tortured forever? He also gave dogs, goats and insects the earth. Nothing special there

ugh... lol

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pooty

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I believe in A Creator. But when people who believe in a Creator say:

Creationist: Everything has a Creator. So the universe had to be created by someone.

Atheist: So who created the Creator?

Creationist: Well, no one. The Creator didn't need a Creator.

When the creation argument suits your purpose you use it. as soon as it goes against your point of view you dismiss it. and if you say "God came from a dimension of spirits where the laws of physics don't apply". What makes you think he was the only one created from nothing? Why do you think he was the first and only one created that way?

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pooty

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#12621  Edited By pooty

@pooty said:

He could just let our physical form be perfect on a perfect earth as a reward. If he wanted he could make our physical form immortal. As said there is no evidence that a soul is inside us. Also, allowing people to suffer for eternity is not justice. When you think of a person who allows torture, Allah comes to mind? Your God allows endless pain and suffering? I know you say we choose hell. But what kind of being would even allow such a place to exist? Why not just kill our soul? Put unbelievers out of our misery. What benefit is there to letting souls be tortured forever? He also gave dogs, goats and insects the earth. Nothing special there

ugh... lol

Agreed. the concept of hell is....ugh

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YodaPrime

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@pooty: absolutely when u look at it from that angle.

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@pooty said:

I've been there, my friend. It sucks. But you can't deny the facts. You HEAR religion say all these wonderful things about god. But you SEE what is going on around you. Seeing is believing

Yeah, it's tough. Where did you end up? Did you lose your faith altogether, go back to God or are you, like me, somewhere in the middle?

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#12624  Edited By pooty

@batwatch: I'm not an atheist. I still believe in A Creator but have no faith at all in a religious God. I come from a SUPER religious family and friends. I have not told any of them of my new views. I told a couple of semi friends. One told me I'm a devil worshiper. Another said I'm going to hell. Seriously....that's what they said.

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willpayton

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@pooty said:

@batwatch: I'm not an atheist. I still believe in A Creator but have no faith at all in a religious God. I come from a SUPER religious family and friends. I have not told any of them of my new views. I told a couple of semi friends. One told me I'm a devil worshiper. Another said I'm going to hell. Seriously....that's what they said.

That's sad, but unfortunately common in some circles. Many religions feed into the insecurity and ego of people, telling them that they are special and anyone else who disagrees is evil or will be punished for eternity for their lack of faith. To me it just seems like an extremely weak and insecure belief system... that you have to get people to believe it by threats.

In science we not only encourage people to criticize our beliefs, but it's part of the scientific method. In the end they are either persuaded by the evidence and logic, or they're not. No threats or brainwashing are needed. Arguments stand on their own. If you can prove that some established belief in science is wrong, we dont burn you, we give you a Nobel Prize and money to go do more.

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marvel_boy2241

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Dude. Guys. I know this may be old news but I just heard about the Amazing Atheist's "BananaGate" scandal and uuuuuuuuuh...w.t.f? I hate to sound judge mental but hell naw. This n!gga stuck a banana in his ass. ???? I know his arguments are valid and all, I'm just sayin' the dude stuck a banana in his ass. Like wtf. I'm done,

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Wardemon32

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#12627  Edited By Wardemon32
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#12628  Edited By Cable_Extreme

@theamazingbatman: science currently is trying to explain how the Universe came into existence, not having an exact answer to that question in no way determines your position to hold any extra value. You can look into theoretical physics specifically quantum mechanics and gain a reflectively detailed explanation of how science is currently trying to explain the origin of the Universe. If you want links, I can provide you some later.

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marvel_boy2241

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@marvel_boy2241:

He's bisexual.

Yeah. I've met gay, bi, and strait guys. I don't mind that. It's the maple syrup and banana that creep me out. We're talking about a guy that in normal videos is hilarious and intelligent. Now I can't even look at him the same. Or eat a banana for that a matter.

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BatWatch

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@pooty said:

@batwatch: I'm not an atheist. I still believe in A Creator but have no faith at all in a religious God. I come from a SUPER religious family and friends. I have not told any of them of my new views. I told a couple of semi friends. One told me I'm a devil worshiper. Another said I'm going to hell. Seriously....that's what they said.

Nice.

I kept it in for a long time because I at first felt like it was a character weakness and then later felt like I didn't want to spread the infection. At the time, I was in a completely miserable state of mind partially because of my new views, so I was afraid to share them because I was afraid I might convince others to think like me. When I finally got to the breaking point where I just wanted to die and didn't care anymore, I had to quit my job teaching because teaching at that job was a miserable experience all on its own, so I had to have some reason for leaving before the year was up, and I despise lying, so I just told people the truth. I was depress partially because I had lost my faith in God's goodness.

Thankfully, my friends and family didn't react like some of yours did. I did get some people who were combative and wanted to argue with me which was fine because I wanted to see where I was going wrong in my thinking, but I couldn't talk about it for a long time without getting angry, and even when I could, I didn't want to discourage my friends. Also, it's pretty hard not to be offensive when you are essentially saying, "God is evil," to a believer. I had quite a few who either didn't believe I really thought as I said or said they couldn't understand. I guess that's about as bad as it got.

Something I find funny is that people have a hard time believing I'm not reacting to some personal injury. Most people think that to be angry at God, I have to be holding a grudge on something that happened to me, but in reality, it's just the way the world is in general. I could tell the story of my life and a few things that I feel God should have done and make it sound like I have a miserable existence, but I don't. My life is much better than most people, I do believe. Still, it bugs me for all those that are deeply suffering despite never doing wrong. Just the potential of that makes no sense to me, and if we take the principle of this pain being unjust to it's logical conclusion, then any suffering, however minor, seem wrong if allowed by a being that has infinite power, right?

I don't get it.

Clearly, God wants us to suffer, and perhaps it is so we can grow. I have arguments about how it seems to me a perfect world with people with perfect maturity and understanding could coexist with free will, but I suppose if I'm wrong, suffering is a natural requirement of life. Regardless of how I think life could exist, it's clear that in this world, life requires effort, struggle and hardships, and there is no denying that people get stronger for enduring these things, so maybe that's the point of existence. Maybe life is meaningless without struggle. I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm still pondering.

Anyway, I'm sorry some of your friends and families got kind of dickish with the devil worshiping accusations. Like I said, I believe I've experience God, so I've never lost my faith in his existence, and I do believe I felt his leading through the Bible and as I was being a more devout Christian, so I'm inclined to think there is some merit in that, but I suppose God could have used the Bible to lead me even if he was not the Christian God. I'm trying to keep my eyes open. I've been reading the Book of Mormon lately to see if it offers anything. It's been thoroughly unconvincing thus far, but parts of it are fun. There's a rather funny passage where God tell Nephi to kill a dude where Nephi is arguing with God.

Dude. Guys. I know this may be old news but I just heard about the Amazing Atheist's "BananaGate" scandal and uuuuuuuuuh...w.t.f? I hate to sound judge mental but hell naw. This n!gga stuck a banana in his ass. ???? I know his arguments are valid and all, I'm just sayin' the dude stuck a banana in his ass. Like wtf. I'm done.

I've come across The Amazing Atheist. Can't say I know nor care about what he sticks in his butt, but I never found him very convincing. I don't know about his atheist videos since again I don't really care, but I have been curious on some of his political videos. All of his political videos I've ever given a try have been mean spirited and full of straw man arguments.
Actually, I just watched a video of his again to refresh my memory, and it turns out I actually agree with him on the argument he made this time on a political matter, but I still think he makes his points very poorly. Yelling, cursing and being crude do not help your case and in fact only ostracize anybody who does not already agree with you.
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marvel_boy2241

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@batwatch: Yeah. Many YouTube atheists have those kinds of videos. i watch them primarily for comedy. I leave it to my brain to develop fair opinions based on the information I obtain.

Now it's hard to look at the guy without imagining those pictures i saw. Like wtf? What was he thinking? What was he trying to do? Why a banana? And chocolate? *hurk*

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pooty

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@cable_extreme: Totally agree with your last post. Just because science doesn't have all the answers, does NOT mean the Bible/Quran answer is correct.

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#12634  Edited By pooty

@batwatch: I'm going through what you said in your first paragraph. Except I'm not depressed or sad. I don't blame God for anything. I'm mad at humans for feeding me bull$hit about him. He made us. Gave us what we need to live and us alone. Fine by me. Till this day, I sometimes think my doubt is a test. The Bible did foretell that people, even scientist, would try to lead us astray. I keep thinking: Am I stupid enough to fail a test I was warned about?" I don't tell people about my views because I will lose respect for them. I know the Bible inside and out. I've used every excuse to defend the Biblical God. And instead of admitting the obvious contradictions or admitting that no living God would condone rape or hell, they say "it's my fault for losing faith". Instead of losing friends I just keep quiet. Their brainwashed but I love him. so I come here and talk big and bad until I muster up the courage to do it in real life. Lol

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#12635  Edited By Cable_Extreme

So basically what I currently think about religion is that it is not in humanities best interest. It scews peoples beliefs and changes them in way nothing else could.

Basically, when something (that hasn't been verified in the slightest) changes your views to such an extent that the majority of a religion believes in something like young earth creationism, or that everyone who leaves their faith should be killed ect... Then that is when religion is completely poison.

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deactivated-5bf392a6a3b92

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I'm a Christian, and I really enjoy spiritual debates, not arguments. I think about the Earth's rotation on its axis around the sun, the moon's rotation around the Earth, all the other planets rotations, the fact that the Earth is close enough to the sun that we don't freeze, but far enough away that we don't burn. I believe because I have faith. Nowhere in my bible does it say that I have the Lord's permission to insult, harm, or kill anyone who believes differently than I do though. I simply tell people what I believe and why, then I listen to their beliefs and reasons for them.

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MatteoPG

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No Problem . I'll read it as soon as I am free .

Nah , don't reduce it.

Anyway this is really your best argument??

Not my best. It's the most basic and more deeply phrased, but I actually dialogue better than I monologue ;)

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theamazingbatman

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@pooty said:

@theamazingbatman said:

@pooty said:

@theamazingbatman said:

Can anyone tell me that how come the son of God , who has so much power be crucified by some humans ??

@pooty@cable_extreme

Do you guys believe in souls?

No. I don't believe in souls either or the after life. If A Creator wanted us to live forever in spirit form he would have just made us spirits to begin with. Also, the Creator made us from the cheapest, least important material in the world. We should be happy with the few years he gave us and stop expecting more like we're something special. Also, no confirmed proof of the afterlife.

About the Trinity i agree with Islam. The Creator does not need a heir or help. The Almighty would never lower himself to human form. Nor can the Almighty die. Jesus even says:

Mark 13:32

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Mark 10:18 Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone

If God and Jesus were the same the would have the EXACT same knowledge and the EXACT same qualities. Wouldn't you agree?

Yep , God doesn't need any help .

I agree that jesus and God were not the same .

The after life is something other than spirit world . After we die , we will have to account for the things we did on Earth and if we did more good on earth then we'll go to heaven and we'll be forever rewarded on the other hand , if we did more bad on this earth than good , then we'll be punished for an eternity in Hell .

We are special . That's why he gave us Earth and everything on Earth .

He could just let our physical form be perfect on a perfect earth as a reward. If he wanted he could make our physical form immortal. As said there is no evidence that a soul is inside us. Also, allowing people to suffer for eternity is not justice. When you think of a person who allows torture, Allah comes to mind? Your God allows endless pain and suffering? I know you say we choose hell. But what kind of being would even allow such a place to exist? Why not just kill our soul? Put unbelievers out of our misery. What benefit is there to letting souls be tortured forever? He also gave dogs, goats and insects the earth. Nothing special there

Paradise would be a million times better than a perfect Earth . Paradise would be a place for eternal happiness .

What would being immortal do??

You don't believe in souls?? that's okay .

The people were warned several times and they had a lot of time on earth but they chose to waste the time and don't follow his God so I think that he does deserve punishment .

there would be endless suffering but endless happiness too .

Actually the people in hell will have their bodies too IIRC . The people will burn in hellfire and then they will be healed and will be burned again.

Again , there is eternal happiness too .

Tell me again that why do you think we are nothing special.

@cable_extreme said:

@theamazingbatman: science currently is trying to explain how the Universe came into existence, not having an exact answer to that question in no way determines your position to hold any extra value. You can look into theoretical physics specifically quantum mechanics and gain a reflectively detailed explanation of how science is currently trying to explain the origin of the Universe. If you want links, I can provide you some later.

No , Its okay .

I'll say again that how do you think we are here?? You think that it is a coincidence that our earth is exactly the distance that we need to survive?? Why do we breathe oxygen?? And you think that that it is another coincidence that oxygen is present in Earth too?? You think it is a coincidence that we have an atmosphere that protects us from dangerous rays of the sun?? You think it is a coincidence that we need water to survive and it is another coincidence that water is present on earth?? You think that it is a coincidence that food is present on Earth and is it another coincidence that we need food?? Is it a coincidence that our body has all the organs that we need to survive?? Is it a coincidence that we have a heart , a brain , lungs , livers , kidneys , mouth , eyes , and all the other parts of our body?? You think it is a coincidence that our heart pumps the blood which allows us to remain alive ??? You think it is a coincidence that we have bones?? You think it is a coincidence that we have blood?? You think it is a coincidence that we have a nervous system?? Is it a coincidence that we have an immune system?? What do you think about atoms?? How did they come into existence?? Were they a coincidence too?? These extremely tiny particles which are so small that trillions of them can easily fit on a tip of a single hair came by itself??? Why is everything made out of atoms??? Is it another "coincidence" . And for electrons , an atom is like a whole world . And a quark is even smaller than an electron . How did they come into existence??

Science only helps us understand nature better . Science is only a study of nature . It only tells us how the world work and some other things . It can't ever explain that how anything came to exist .

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pooty

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#12639  Edited By pooty

@theamazingbatman: The people were warned several times and they had a lot of time on earth but they chose to waste the time and don't follow his God so I think that he does deserve punishment .

How long do humans live? 120yrs at best. most only live to 70-80. So i treat others the way i want to be treated. I take care of my family. i give to charity. help people when i can. don't lie, steal, kill. and just because i don't worship someone I CAN'T SEE, i burn FOREVER? That's not justice

Actually the people in hell will have their bodies too IIRC . The people will burn in hellfire and then they will be healed and will be burned again

and you're okay with that? Are we reading the same words? that is the most gruesome, inhumane thing i've ever heard. I wouldn't treat my worst enemy like that!! That is what Hitler did. And you honestly condone and agree with that treatment?

Tell me again that why do you think we are nothing special

We made from dirt. we live a few years and we die. just like EVERY OTHER SINGLE CREATURE. just like a dolphin or squirrel or a roach. We call ourselves superior life forms(compared to animals or insects) but we get sick and die just like they do.

I'll say again that how do you think we are here?? You think that it is a coincidence that our earth is exactly the distance that we need to survive?? Why do we breathe oxygen?? And you think that that it is another coincidence that oxygen is present in Earth too?? You think it is a coincidence that we have an atmosphere that protects us from dangerous rays of the sun?? You think it is a coincidence that we need water to survive and it is another coincidence that water is present on earth?? You think that it is a coincidence that food is present on Earth and is it another coincidence that we need food?? Is it a coincidence that our body has all the organs that we need to survive?? Is it a coincidence that we have a heart , a brain , lungs , livers , kidneys , mouth , eyes , and all the other parts of our body?? You think it is a coincidence that our heart pumps the blood which allows us to remain alive ??? You think it is a coincidence that we have bones?? You think it is a coincidence that we have blood?? You think it is a coincidence that we have a nervous system?? Is it a coincidence that we have an immune system?? What do you think about atoms?? How did they come into existence?? Were they a coincidence too

That argument goes both ways. Is it just coincidence that a perfect all mighty being just happened to exist? And is it coincidence that that all mighty being just happens to love us more then any other creation? If the universe(which is nothing compared to god) can't happen by coincidence, then how can something as great as god just happen by coincidence? The chances of god just happening to exist is no different then our universe just happening to exist.

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marvel_boy2241

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@matteopg said:

@theamazingbatman: there is no particular reason. It's a massive cultural and anthropological phenomenon that I am no part of, but it is very widespread. That's one of the reasons why it is interesting.

It's interesting also considering the following: IF there is no god, why did humans feel the need to create such a notion? What fears does the notion of a god assuage?

I'm not saying that there is no god, I'm just considering what is the psychological process behind the creation of religion JUST IN CASE there is no god.

There is a God .

No one in there right mind should believe you unless you have proof. Do you have proof?

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YodaPrime

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#12641  Edited By YodaPrime

@theamazingbatman said:

@matteopg said:

@theamazingbatman: there is no particular reason. It's a massive cultural and anthropological phenomenon that I am no part of, but it is very widespread. That's one of the reasons why it is interesting.

It's interesting also considering the following: IF there is no god, why did humans feel the need to create such a notion? What fears does the notion of a god assuage?

I'm not saying that there is no god, I'm just considering what is the psychological process behind the creation of religion JUST IN CASE there is no god.

There is a God .

No one in there right mind should believe you unless you have proof. Do you have proof?

lol depends on what you mean by proof. Some of us consider the universe "proof".. or the bible. etc.

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StardustCrusader

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I think it's a waste of time.

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@yodaprime: well, proof shouldn't be dependant on personal opinion. If you look at something and perceive it exactly like the rest of the world, then you have proof. If you look at something and see something not everybody agrees on, you have opinion, faith or guess.

For example: skin burns are proof of the high temperature of the fire. You see fire, touch it, you get burned.

You see a sunrise and decide to see a god in it, good for you, but a lot of people wouldn't see it at all. That's not proof.

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YodaPrime

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@matteopg said:

@yodaprime: well, proof shouldn't be dependant on personal opinion. If you look at something and perceive it exactly like the rest of the world, then you have proof. If you look at something and see something not everybody agrees on, you have opinion, faith or guess.

For example: skin burns are proof of the high temperature of the fire. You see fire, touch it, you get burned.

You see a sunrise and decide to see a god in it, good for you, but a lot of people wouldn't see it at all. That's not proof.

not everyone can or will agree on everything. I've seen people not get burned by fire. nothing is unanimous. and thus, proof is subjective.

So true, the sun rise might not be proof for you. But "a lot of" people do see it as proof.

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pooty

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#12645  Edited By pooty

The universe MAY be proof of a Creator(scientifically speaking). The universe is NOT proof of God(religiously speaking). The personality, words and history of God, according to the Bible or Quran is not supported by any scientific or archeological data. and if God came from another realm or dimension, why do people think he was the ONLY one to come from that dimension?

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ssejllenrad

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@pooty said:

The universe MAY be proof of a Creator(scientifically speaking). The universe is NOT proof of God(religiously speaking).

Agree. As Carl Sagan said:

Some people think God is an outsized, light-skinned male with a long white beard, sitting on a throne somewhere up there in the sky, busily tallying the fall of every sparrow. Others—for example Baruch Spinoza and Albert Einstein —considered God to be essentially the sum total of the physical laws which describe the universe. I do not know of any compelling evidence for anthropomorphic patriarchs controlling human destiny from some hidden celestial vantage point, but it would be madness to deny the existence of physical laws

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MatteoPG

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#12647  Edited By MatteoPG

@yodaprime: so your argument against mine is that fire doesn't burn. It doesn't run at 700-1000 °C and so your tissues don't get damaged. Or at best it sometimes burn, but sometimes it doesn't run that high.

I was just making you consider what proof means and we could have had a nice discussion about that, but I absolutely don't want to debate with somebody who will go so far (to claim that his faith is truth) as to claim that FIRE DOESN'T BURN!

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dshipp17

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#12648  Edited By dshipp17

@matteopg said:

@yodaprime: so your argument against mine is that fire doesn't burn. It doesn't run at 700-1000 °C and so your tissues don't get damaged. Or at best it sometimes burn, but sometimes it doesn't run that high.

I was just making you consider what proof means and we could have had a nice discussion about that, but I absolutely don't want to debate with somebody who will go so far (to claim that his faith is truth) as to claim that FIRE DOESN'T BURN!

Well, every time proof is provided, the goal post keeps being moved. In excess of 20 examples of proof have been provided, along with pages of this thread, literally, and the controversies behind those proofs are raised. As with most proofs, there will be someone out there that will disagree; in the case of Christian (and monotheists and even those who believe in some form of deity) versus atheists, it's literally like comparing those scientists that agree on climate change versus those who dispute it (like 88% to 12%, while in religion versus atheists, it's probably closer to 99.08% to 0.12%); actually, the extreme between Christian and atheists is even more extreme, yet those 12% of scientists who disagree are called names and ostracized from the rest of the scientific community in the media, while the religious continue to seriously entertain atheists; which group is actually proving to be the more rational and open-minded? At this point, all someone is doing is deceiving themselves about a subject, or, at least trying to deceive others about what they truly believe.

I can remember several unexplained events in my own life that I accept as true. One night, when I was around 13, my stepfather was in a heated argument with my sisters; I walked in on it to take a peek, and I was noticed; everything stopped; I went back to my bedroom; after sometime, I was in my bedroom with the blanket over my head; I had a very uneasy feeling run through my body; I took the blanket from over my head and slowly looked around the room; right where the doorway was, my eyes came across a pair of red, glowing eyes staring right at me, and they blinked at me; I was terrified and threw the blanket back over my head; I know that what I saw was a demon and I have no other explanation; I don't need a group of scientists and psychologists to come convince me of what I saw or didn't see. These are the types of proofs that most people can rationally rely upon to know what they know. You might not consider this proof but it's still very real to me and something that happened to me, even if there will be no foreseeable scientific proof for I experienced.

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MatteoPG

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@dshipp17: you can't have proof about a personal experience and even less so about a feeling. I had stuff in my life that remains unexplained, so I know that it can't be brought up as proof of anything in any way.

I was talking about actual proof, real proof, necessary conclusions. If God was evident by just the existence of the Universe, we would have a very small percentage of people disagreeing, like people who don't believe that humans evolved from other mammals.

Climate change is considered a debate. 88 vs 12 is a large majority but we do need to keep debating until there is definite proof. If there had been definitive proof, the percentages would be even more spread away, I assure you.

I don't really understand your post, I think. I was just explaining that for something to be considered proof it has to be definitive, because there IS such a thing as definitive proof, not subject to interpretation or opinion. I brought up the example of fire because is something everyone has experienced and everybody agrees on... and the other poster said that it's not true! Sometimes fire doesn't burn if you put your hand inside it. Are you saying that his was a good argument? Fire doesn't burn is something we can debate at lenght?

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pooty

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@matteopg said:

@dshipp17: you can't have proof about a personal experience and even less so about a feeling. I had stuff in my life that remains unexplained, so I know that it can't be brought up as proof of anything in any way.

I was talking about actual proof, real proof, necessary conclusions. If God was evident by just the existence of the Universe, we would have a very small percentage of people disagreeing, like people who don't believe that humans evolved from other mammals.

Climate change is considered a debate. 88 vs 12 is a large majority but we do need to keep debating until there is definite proof. If there had been definitive proof, the percentages would be even more spread away, I assure you.

I don't really understand your post, I think. I was just explaining that for something to be considered proof it has to be definitive, because there IS such a thing as definitive proof, not subject to interpretation or opinion. I brought up the example of fire because is something everyone has experienced and everybody agrees on... and the other poster said that it's not true! Sometimes fire doesn't burn if you put your hand inside it. Are you saying that his was a good argument? Fire doesn't burn is something we can debate at lenght?

Where was this proof that God exist posted? What pages? I missed it. Posting miracles with no evidence to back it up or saying the universe is proof or personal experience is not proof. I'm sorry it's proof in the individuals mind. it's not proof that can be measured or confirmed or verified. Thousands have said they've been abducted by aliens. Hundreds have said they've seen the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot or Mermaids. If God wanted his existence confirmed, he would do so. If God wanted us to choose a specific religion, he would do so. Isn't the fact that God has done neither, PROOF that he wants us to leave him alone?