@mrdecepticonleader:
No we came up with religion long, long before christianity.
This is true. I see that you are focusing on the core of the main argument we are having. But here I am shifting to Christianity because of your statement which I quoted.
And as I have said and proven that morality existed before religion.
No you have not. You have theorized that it did and hoped that it did but you have not "proven" it by any means. Not to me any way. I am attempting to stay focused upon your used of "religion" as "organized religions" but it remains my position that religion defined as a supernatural understanding of the mechanics of the universe was there in the caves with our Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon ancestors so there is NO POSSIBLE WAY to demonstrate that what you call morality somehow developed in a vacuum outside of their supernatural world-view (religion).
And again regarding christianity itself there are many points within christianity that are not true and have been disproven or have no proof to back up the claims.
This is not true. This is your belief (and the belief of others) but not proven true like when I say I am going to toss an apple up and I can prove it will fall back down.
I mean you disagree that religion did not come from us well then where did it come from?
If we agree for a moment to state that our earliest known ancestors viewed phenomena around them from a supernatural view of reality (religion) then I would have to say that this could have been from them (as you argue) or it could be from some core religious impulse (which would actually work for both of our positions) or it was endowed within them by their Creator.
Hardly Id say it is you who is naive or maybe simply ignorant to the fact that religion is simply becoming less and less relevant. The numbers of religious people are dropping.
Perhaps in the West and certainly in your dreams but it still remains that the majority of the world is religious (supernatural view of reality). By assuming that because it seems to be happening in the West it is therefore happening everywhere is discriminatory in my opinion.
This is really in part due to the fact we are no longer ignorant, we no longer have to make do with mythology. The more we know the less ignorant we become the more religion will dwindle. That is not naivety or even optimism but a simple fact. And we need secularism and societies that call themselves democracies will also be secular because secularism is fair since due to the fact that we live in a more enlightened times different faiths will co exist in one country but then of course non religious people will also live there. Secularism is their to keep things fair to make sure that one religion does not take province and start interfering with laws and how the country is run. Secularism is there to keep both the religious and non religious on equal ground and both parties happy.
While I share your desire for freedom from religious hegemony and therefore share your hope for secular society it is also true to say that secular societies must also bear the burden for some pretty nasty atrocities in the post-Enlightenment world. The Reign of Terror in post-Revolutionary France come to mind.
We don't need to base our morality on religion whatsoever. I find the assumption that we do both profoundly ignorant and flat out discriminatory.
Again I fear that when you hear (or read) me use the term religion what you are hearing is me saying "organized religion". And as this has once again expanded beyond my intended scope let me restate my point that it is my opinion that morality as it actually exists today in reality has been greatly influenced by religious precepts. Morality as it actually exists today does not exist in a vacuum.
God revealed himself in history? Well which god? There is no historical evidence for a supernatural being revealing himself.
New Testament scholarship. But I understand you don't argree. Although I still have not determined if this is because you have never really given it any serious effort or if you have just ruled it out de facto based upon your own biases and presuppositions. Of course you are going to say you have studied it deeply because you really couldn't admit otherwise, but it still remains that I see no evidence.
Discriminatory? Not really since there is proof that our morality does not come from religion.
In your opinion. Plenty of proof from my POV. Again I could understand if you stated that you believed it were possible to "cook up" some new morality in a vacuum, but I don't believe in all intellectual honesty that you can claim current human morality has evolved to it's current state with no influence from religion at all. And to attempt to "cook up" such a thing would indeed discriminate against those who view reality through supernatural lenses. So how do we arrive at a consensus eh?
But there does seem to be such a large insistence that you need religion to be moral, god to be good. When that is simply not the case.
Aha now you begin to reveal your wishful thinking.
We decide ourselves what is moral, what is right etc. We are social creatures so its in our nature to work around and get along in that way.
At least until we are no longer getting our way and our lives begin to depend upon it. Then we go to war. Figuratively and literally.
Pie in the sky...
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