#151 Posted by OblivionKnight (3356 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas: I assume you are referring to the Catholic Church maybe? Or are you speaking for all religions?

If you are referring to Christianity, there are many different types of Christian denominations. Some believe it's already determined who's gettin into heaven, some believe good deeds get one into heaven.

It really depends on what denomination or religion you're looking at to determine what happens after one dies. Some religions are all about reincarnation and about bettering one's self in the next life. The Heaven or Hell thing isn't too cut or dry.

I don't believe people of a religion personally see the rest of the world as damned. But, yes the religions themselves certainly give off that vibe.

Religions put up barriers just like ethnicity, social status and many other things do.

I'm not denying that religion does this. Just that other things contribute to a segregated world.

#152 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not denying that religion does this. Just that other things contribute to a segregated world.

That is important to point out, I agree.

#153 Posted by OverLordArhas (7771 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas: I assume you are referring to the Catholic Church maybe? Or are you speaking for all religions?

If you are referring to Christianity, there are many different types of Christian denominations. Some believe it's already determined who's gettin into heaven, some believe good deeds get one into heaven.

It really depends on what denomination or religion you're looking at to determine what happens after one dies. Some religions are all about reincarnation and about bettering one's self in the next life. The Heaven or Hell thing isn't too cut or dry.

I don't believe people of a religion personally see the rest of the world as damned. But, yes the religions themselves certainly give off that vibe.

Religions put up barriers just like ethnicity, social status and many other things do.

I'm not denying that religion does this. Just that other things contribute to a segregated world.

No one in particular, but yes the Catholics and Protestants do project that vibe. As for what happens after death, religious denominations are hypocrites, whether it is heaven, reincarnated as something better, it all anchors in a reward system. I think a poster in this thread said "Why not do good for the sake of doing good."

As for religious members. some are, I have personal experience of people pestering about salvation and whatnot and if you reason with them and they are put in a corner, they react violently.

#154 Posted by OmniBeast (478 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I'm just going to cut to the chase and state my opinion. I don't want to argue. I believe Religion is both a hindrance and a help. Organized religion seems to be the hindrance. In my personal case, I believe in the lord and such but I don't believe someone is condemned because he's attracted to the same sex or believes in a different idea.

Religion has great potential to push people to do great things but it's a double edge sword because it can cause great wars (crusades)

Like I said though, I think organized religion is the problem.

#155 Edited by OverLordArhas (7771 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I'm just going to cut to the chase and state my opinion. I don't want to argue. I believe Religion is both a hindrance and a help. Organized religion seems to be the hindrance. In my personal case, I believe in the lord and such but I don't believe someone is condemned because he's attracted to the same sex or believes in a different idea.

Religion has great potential to push people to do great things but it's a double edge sword because it can cause great wars (crusades)

Like I said though, I think organized religion is the problem.

Cool, The double edge sword reference is EPIC!

#156 Edited by The_PAIN (720 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_pain said:

Every religious leader are liars and uses their followers like pawns to meet their ends. DISGUSTING!

Isn't...isn't this what politics are?

Yes, one control people by law, the second control people by a being that does or does not exist.

Sad really. :(

#157 Posted by OverLordArhas (7771 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_pain said:

@oblivionknight said:

@the_pain said:

Every religious leader are liars and uses their followers like pawns to meet their ends. DISGUSTING!

Isn't...isn't this what politics are?

Yes, one control people by law, the second control people by a being that does or does not exist.

Sad really. :(

#158 Posted by kuonphobos (4898 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that this thread would have made a lovely question over HERE.

It would have stroked all the relevant egos and made the place lively. But this is really just redundant. This question has been asked and addressed on that thread many, many times over in many, many delightful ways.

But since this is the place at this moment I think one would need to clarify what one means by the word "religion" and the phrase "hinders potential" .

Potential for an ethical society? Potential for human rights?

The definition I personally use for religion is "ultimate concern". In other words whatever it is that an individual or a society considers to be of ultimate concern becomes for them a religion. It is their purpose, their reason, their meaning, their hope, their goals, etc.

The word itself literally means "to bind back" and is certainly open to nuance. Negatively it can be seen as restrictive. Positively it can be seen as the fundamental or foundational thought forms which undergird all of human thought and endeavor. Negatively it can be seen narrowly as the various dogmas and creeds and theologies which form the skeletons of so many systems. Positively it can be seen as the vast multitude of expressions of human inquisitiveness concerning our world and our experiences.

#159 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas: Ok, long answer now. My answer is yes because the hindrance they do outweighs the benefits they do for the potential of humanity.

First-up, their benefits to the potential. One thing that most, if not all, religions do to humanity's potential is the "positive" reinforcement they do for the charity towards poverty. Less poverty means less problem. Less problem means concentrating more on improving the world. At least looking at it on face value. I'm not saying only the religious do this kind of work but I am willing to bet that the biggest contributors to feeding and aid programs (not counting contraceptives though) are from the religious.

Let's go to the superficial view of religions. They do, in fact, inspire people (at least the ones not against their set of beliefs) to be the best of men. That is the whole point of "salvation". To reach an ideal standard from the current sh*thole of a reality we're at right now. Maybe they do it through lifting the spirit. Maybe they do it through guilt tripping. NO matter what their methods are, that is their purpose.

Another thing I think religion has done is to improve on science. Yes, science. Islam during the dark ages was a beacon of enlightenment. The Christian monks were the scientists of medieval Europe. If anyone would dispute that the Christian Church caused the illiteracy of the dark ages, let's do it somewhere else, I don't want to debate it here cause it's a whole new topic. Lastly, one of the biggest observatories in the world today is found within the Vatican, funded by the Catholic Church. And if one can remember, the Big Bang Theory was verified by a Catholic priest - Lemaitre. Through patronage or direct contributions, one cannot deny their part in the development of the world we live in today.

I can go on for ages how the religious have contributed to humanity's improvement but there's a catch here. The open-mindedness of the discoveries and ventures of the religions are always limited to what is moral to their respective doctrines. For example, the search for UFOs is not much of a big deal for the Catholic Church because it does not compromise the fact that "god" still created man. The evolution of mathematics under the Islamic empire did not go against their belief that Allah is all-knowing and can represent himself via the golden number and other quantifiable things in the world or all those Muslim stuff I am too lazy to explain. The thing about these religions is that they hinder the advancements despite its logic if it contradicts their doctrine. And that is how they are pretty much a hindrance.

Sexuality for one. It is a part of life. But most religions view it with taboo and therefore exploration of what is not a norm to the eyes of relgion is viewed as sinful. In a way, the religions dictate the attitude of society towards these behaviors and so the deviants are casted out. This goes beyond sexuality. Science, for one. Stem cell is a no-no to the religious because it goes against their traditional beliefs (and in this case, particular interpretation of something that is not explicitly written in their scripture).

This kind of hindrance goes for all the fields where the religious think their beliefs are being compromised. Politics, media, education, etc. And things go to sh*t when the religious jingoism starts. Let's put aside the anti-religious for a bit. No matter how much the religious do to help humanity, if they clash with other religious from the other side of the fence, most-likely, violence is going to break out and the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude takes over, making the "help humanity" goal a parked objective. Crusades, Jihads, Milkhemets, etc. Winning the fight becomes a priority. Helping mankind goes to the back of the queue. And if history can be used as a gauge, the damage they do cannot be compensated with the charity they give.

In the end, I don't think religion is the big bad villain stopping man from evolving socially and technologically. They do help out. Of course, just to an extent. But I think they have outlived their usefulness.

DO I think we would be much advanced if religion was non-existent in all history? No. Religion has been among the building blocks of civilization, being a part of societies since the earliest of days. It has been a cohesive tool for people and it sure as hell did help to keep the ancient civilizations and their laws intact.

Do I think we would be much advanced if religion was non-existent during the last hundred years? Yes. If religion have not meddled with our development during recent history, I bet we would be in a much better state. Of course wars will still be existent. Mass killings would be still occurring. That is human nature. But at least we'll have one less "vindication" for these atrocities.

Sorry if this was too long despite its shallowness.

#160 Posted by OverLordArhas (7771 posts) - - Show Bio

@kuonphobos:

My first thought in making the thread is to focus on the hindering factor of religion to man's growth scientifically and socially.

By religion's definition, see below:

  1. The belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, esp. a personal God or gods.
  2. Details of belief as taught or discussed.

I come from a severely religious community, though their denomination differ, they have several likeness, one of them is zealot like devotion, one example would be not accepting blood transfusion even if their lives depend on it, another is not going to a doctor and having a preacher pray for them to get well.

I'm inquisitive even as a child (Elementary and into science, my favorite subject) so I often ask why they did it, why not go for the transfusion or why not go to the Doctor. BTW, the two example I have given did not get a happy ending. When I told them that going for the medical option is the best and could yield better result, they dismiss me violently and said to not question their faith, even if that faith per se is the cause of a life. I did not get angry for the rough dismissal but the illogical answer "Do Not Question Our Faith".

By Hindering Potential, i meant possibility that could be, for example (Economics), we all know that the Catholic Church is against Artificial Birth Control. A country with a land area and resources that could not sustain it's citizens rapid population growth, the Government tried to pass a Bill for a Pseudo Population Control and the Church (Majority of the people are members), with their outdated dogma said it is not the will of GOD. By opposing this, the said Country is hindered a chance to improve itself.

As for Ethical Society, it is hard to make or impossible to make a template because ethical standards differ from place to place but I will make an example, killing/murder is not permitted under international law, but some religious custom permit this.

As for religion being a hindrance to science, let us take for example, cloning, cloning is not just copying something, it could lead to many possibilities, but they accuse the practitioners as playing GOD.

- The word itself literally means "to bind back" and is certainly open to nuance. Negatively it can be seen as restrictive. Positively it can be seen as the fundamental or foundational thought forms which undergird all of human thought and endeavor. Negatively it can be seen narrowly as the various dogmas and creeds and theologies which form the skeletons of so many systems. Positively it can be seen as the vast multitude of expressions of human inquisitiveness concerning our world and our experiences.

I agree with you that it is the framework of may social and political system, But I disagree on this part, "Positively it can be seen as the vast multitude of expressions of human inquisitiveness concerning our world and our experiences." Religion does not promote inquisitiveness but rather stagnation.

#161 Posted by kuonphobos (4898 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas:

Then using what I believe is your definition of religion and based upon the examples you have offered I would say that some religions can certainly be a hindrance to potential. I would still be hesitant to say that religion (as a whole) is a hindrance. That is too general and non-specific from my perspective even using your definition.

My statement that "Positively it can be seen as the vast multitude of expressions of human inquisitiveness concerning our world and our experiences." emerges from my understanding of religion as "ultimate concern". This definition of religion would encompass all of human endeavor including philosophy and science because all are variant methodologies for observing and understanding phenomena. What separates each from the other are their underlying presuppositions about the nature of reality.

But I can understand when using your definition of religion how you would see it as only promoting stagnation. Again I would only wish to add the point that some religions or religious systems and expressions do so but one cannot condemn all of religious experience out of hand. Much of our ethical tradition which helps to restrain any negative impact by human nature upon science is formed by religion and religiously influenced ideas. Much of our social ethics are influenced by religious traditions as well. Those influences provide restraint but not necessarily stagnation.

#162 Posted by OverLordArhas (7771 posts) - - Show Bio

@overlordarhas: Ok, long answer now. My answer is yes because the hindrance they do outweighs the benefits they do for the potential of humanity.

First-up, their benefits to the potential. One thing that most, if not all, religions do to humanity's potential is the "positive" reinforcement they do for the charity towards poverty. Less poverty means less problem. Less problem means concentrating more on improving the world. At least looking at it on face value. I'm not saying only the religious do this kind of work but I am willing to bet that the biggest contributors to feeding and aid programs (not counting contraceptives though) are from the religious.

Let's go to the superficial view of religions. They do, in fact, inspire people (at least the ones not against their set of beliefs) to be the best of men. That is the whole point of "salvation". To reach an ideal standard from the current sh*thole of a reality we're at right now. Maybe they do it through lifting the spirit. Maybe they do it through guilt tripping. NO matter what their methods are, that is their purpose.

Another thing I think religion has done is to improve on science. Yes, science. Islam during the dark ages was a beacon of enlightenment. The Christian monks were the scientists of medieval Europe. If anyone would dispute that the Christian Church caused the illiteracy of the dark ages, let's do it somewhere else, I don't want to debate it here cause it's a whole new topic. Lastly, one of the biggest observatories in the world today is found within the Vatican, funded by the Catholic Church. And if one can remember, the Big Bang Theory was verified by a Catholic priest - Lemaitre. Through patronage or direct contributions, one cannot deny their part in the development of the world we live in today.

I can go on for ages how the religious have contributed to humanity's improvement but there's a catch here. The open-mindedness of the discoveries and ventures of the religions are always limited to what is moral to their respective doctrines. For example, the search for UFOs is not much of a big deal for the Catholic Church because it does not compromise the fact that "god" still created man. The evolution of mathematics under the Islamic empire did not go against their belief that Allah is all-knowing and can represent himself via the golden number and other quantifiable things in the world or all those Muslim stuff I am too lazy to explain. The thing about these religions is that they hinder the advancements despite its logic if it contradicts their doctrine. And that is how they are pretty much a hindrance.

Sexuality for one. It is a part of life. But most religions view it with taboo and therefore exploration of what is not a norm to the eyes of relgion is viewed as sinful. In a way, the religions dictate the attitude of society towards these behaviors and so the deviants are casted out. This goes beyond sexuality. Science, for one. Stem cell is a no-no to the religious because it goes against their traditional beliefs (and in this case, particular interpretation of something that is not explicitly written in their scripture).

This kind of hindrance goes for all the fields where the religious think their beliefs are being compromised. Politics, media, education, etc. And things go to sh*t when the religious jingoism starts. Let's put aside the anti-religious for a bit. No matter how much the religious do to help humanity, if they clash with other religious from the other side of the fence, most-likely, violence is going to break out and the "I'm right, you're wrong" attitude takes over, making the "help humanity" goal a parked objective. Crusades, Jihads, Milkhemets, etc. Winning the fight becomes a priority. Helping mankind goes to the back of the queue. And if history can be used as a gauge, the damage they do cannot be compensated with the charity they give.

In the end, I don't think religion is the big bad villain stopping man from evolving socially and technologically. They do help out. Of course, just to an extent. But I think they have outlived their usefulness.

DO I think we would be much advanced if religion was non-existent in all history? No. Religion has been among the building blocks of civilization, being a part of societies since the earliest of days. It has been a cohesive tool for people and it sure as hell did help to keep the ancient civilizations and their laws intact.

Do I think we would be much advanced if religion was non-existent during the last hundred years? Yes. If religion have not meddled with our development during recent history, I bet we would be in a much better state. Of course wars will still be existent. Mass killings would be still occurring. That is human nature. But at least we'll have one less "vindication" for these atrocities.

Sorry if this was too long despite its shallowness.

Great Job, i see your point on how they are on of the building blocks of society (no matter how screwed up it is).

First of all, man has a tendency to fear what they do not know and do not understand. When lightning strikes or thunder makes an earth shattering noise, man in his primitiveness back then rationalized that somebody must be doing this. Since no one on Earth could do it, they further their rationalization to a being not seen but all powerful.

As time pass by, events that are outside of current understanding are attributed to this superhuman entity, God and/or Gods. Here comes the good part, people who are ambitious and power hungry took upon it upon themselves to be the avatar of this unknown being on earth, thus began religions. They hate changes because their Dogma does not permit it, why? They say that their knowledge came from God thus it should be perfect, unmoving and lasting. A simple mistake is fatal and there is no room for reformation so a spark of ingenuity is shot dead before it could even bud.

Now that society has advance enough for us to know, and if not the ability to know expand exponentially, should we not forgo of this outdated system and their outdated ways.

#163 Posted by AlexandraTheGreat (14 posts) - - Show Bio

The big three montheistic religions: Christianity, Islam, Judaism. All intrinsically hostile to humour. (Don't even get me started on gender, sexuality and morality). Regardless of what has been acheived for the positive or done in the negative under their banners, this is a nasty, petty, anti-human mindset and as such should be mistrusted. Denying the urge to laugh and be happy? Very suspicious. If in doubt about this, read their books.

#164 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

The big three montheistic religions: Christianity, Islam, Judaism. All intrinsically hostile to humour. (Don't even get me started on gender, sexuality and morality). Regardless of what has been acheived for the positive or done in the negative under their banners, this is a nasty, petty, anti-human mindset and as such should be mistrusted. Denying the urge to laugh and be happy? Very suspicious. If in doubt about this, read their books.

Apparently, god created everything except the laugh. The laugh was created by the devil. Nyehehehehehe! Oh look, I'm laughing. Hell it is!

#165 Posted by OverLordArhas (7771 posts) - - Show Bio

@kuonphobos:

All I can say is that any religion have their quirks, They give us a set of guidelines that does not apply today. I will give you the restriction part, since man primary is his ID, a restricting factor must be implemented to it. But as they say, too much of something is bad.

#166 Posted by camera_guy (233 posts) - - Show Bio

More, I want more..................................................................................

Greed is the only value/s one ever needs. Every thing revolves around it.

#167 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad:

What is it with me responding to things you say today, lol. You must feel like I am stalking you....

Just a couple of points (although I did appreciate your well presented and well thought out post). Yes, there are many charities which do a lot of wonderful work around the world which are religious based. I won't get into specifics, but psychologically, there is an inherent and implied obligation by those who received this much needed and appreciated help and so -- in turn -- many of those helped turn to said religion. Not always. Not blatant. But it's there. Now, where's the harm, right? Sometimes it's a trading of one belief to another so no big deal. Except in some very, very important instances -- the most glaring being the Catholic Church. There is no secret that the Catholic Church has always advocated "be fruitful and multiply." Most monotheistic religions do for the simple reason of raising their numbers. Out of the entire world, the fastest growing population of Catholics is in Africa. Plenty of charity work there. And guess what the view of birth control is with the Vatican?

So, no condoms, therefore more pregnancies, therefore more spread of AIDS and all for the glory of this particular branch of Christianity. So -- charity can be detrimental. Is detrimental. It's terrible because so much wonderful work has and is being done but yet -- this glaring atrocity is still going on, unabated.

Also -- the argument about religion helping science etc doesn't hold much water and only in that human beings were the ones to achieve these successes and discover these findings. They just happened to be Christian or Muslim or Jew. These same advances were then held back and unexpanded on because of religion. Islam, because suddenly, the spiritual leader at the time insisted on returning to a more literal translation of the Qaran which forbid further investigation and application and yes, even with the Catholic Church (which then branched out to other Christian denominations) in preventing access to the Bible and books to the common folk.

My last point is -- for all the wonder of civilizations becoming more structured, leading to a more stronger society as a whole -- I posit to you, that had religion not been so relied upon and adhered to -- half the human race would not be in the position is still is today -- subjugated and considered less than the gender who still hold the reigns of these religions. Imagine what kind of world we would have been in then. Maybe. No one can know for sure.

#168 Posted by OverLordArhas (7771 posts) - - Show Bio

@alexandrathegreat said:

The big three montheistic religions: Christianity, Islam, Judaism. All intrinsically hostile to humour. (Don't even get me started on gender, sexuality and morality). Regardless of what has been acheived for the positive or done in the negative under their banners, this is a nasty, petty, anti-human mindset and as such should be mistrusted. Denying the urge to laugh and be happy? Very suspicious. If in doubt about this, read their books.

Apparently, god created everything except the laugh. The laugh was created by the devil. Nyehehehehehe! Oh look, I'm laughing. Hell it is!

What are you doing, your name highlight is still blue, join us..........in the DARK SIDE of the VINE.

#169 Edited by OblivionKnight (3356 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_pain: so the problem isn't the corrupt bastards, it isn't that people are constantly being manipulated by someone. It's just that one uses laws (which are meant to help maintain order and create "justice") and one uses religion?

The same result, same people doing the arm twisting, just a different tool.

It's terrible either way, sure. But, even without religion, such manipulation and arm twisting would occur.

#170 Posted by EnigmaLantern (763 posts) - - Show Bio

@enigmalantern said:
@overlordarhas said:

@enigmalantern:

That is one way to analyze it. Btw, good one.

But in those times people like Galileo were called heretics and persecuted.

Was that comment sarcastic?

True, but I still believe it to be relevant to the point I was making.

Not at all :)

Ah okay, thanks!

#171 Edited by OverLordArhas (7771 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@ssejllenrad:

What is it with me responding to things you say today, lol. You must feel like I am stalking you....

Just a couple of points (although I did appreciate your well presented and well thought out post). Yes, there are many charities which do a lot of wonderful work around the world which are religious based. I won't get into specifics, but psychologically, there is an inherent and implied obligation by those who received this much needed and appreciated help and so -- in turn -- many of those helped turn to said religion. Not always. Not blatant. But it's there. Now, where's the harm, right? Sometimes it's a trading of one belief to another so no big deal. Except in some very, very important instances -- the most glaring being the Catholic Church. There is no secret that the Catholic Church has always advocated "be fruitful and multiply." Most monotheistic religions do for the simple reason of raising their numbers. Out of the entire world, the fastest growing population of Catholics is in Africa. Plenty of charity work there. And guess what the view of birth control is with the Vatican?

So, no condoms, therefore more pregnancies, therefore more spread of AIDS and all for the glory of this particular branch of Christianity. So -- charity can be detrimental. Is detrimental. It's terrible because so much wonderful work has and is being done but yet -- this glaring atrocity is still going on, unabated.


I agree on what you said, and the term "be fruitful and multiply" is for NOAH and his family to repopulate the EARTH, it is not applicable today. People who interpret this stuff discount setting and circumstances.

#172 Edited by The_PAIN (720 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_pain: so the problem isn't the corrupt bastards, it isn't that people are constantly being manipulated by someone. It's just that one uses laws (which are meant to help maintain order and create "justice") and one uses religion?

The same result, same people doing the arm twisting, just a different tool.

It's terrible either way, sure. But, even without religion, such manipulation and arm twisting would occur.

By your statement, the world is a hopeless place where there are two sets of people, the MANIPULATOR and the MANIPULATED. Those who go against this system in time gets eaten by the system too becoming the MANIPULATOR themselves.

#173 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7705 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14 said:

I don't see why it would. Go to any history class and you'll see that religion is the reason for a lot of the advancements we enjoy and have experienced to this day. The Catholic Church is responsible for the first scientific churches established inEastern and Western Europe. Gregor Mendel, a christian monk, is the father of genetics and is the main reason we have that scientific field as well as making significant additions to it. Ever heard of the Punnet square. Muslim scientists in Spain and North Africa contributed to Navigation (Compass etc.) and even Mathematics. They made libraries for the public to enjoy. Lot's of religious people from the 13th and 14th century didn't see science as a way to bar them from god but bring them closer. A majority of scientists back then were religous. Catholic scientists invented the concepts of relative motion, curvature of light, heliocentrism, and even down to the first correct explanation for a rainbow. Being religous didn't stop them so I wouldn't see how it would be a hindrance to today's society. Forgot to mention that religion has also been the inspiration of lots of plays in theater and controversial art.

This, I'm Christian and I believe in science. Believe God created science as a way for humans to interact with him.

Yes I do and it has and it continues to do so.

Religion impedes on peoples lives, it harms those who may not be a part of it, either in religious related attacks or wars, or it limits equality and peoples rights. There is also a great deal of focus on censoring peoples view points that oppose religion or criticize it. And that is not even to mention how it holds back social and scientific advancement and change.

But not only that it also vastly limits the people who follow a particular religions ideology. Its lists of rule regulations and boundaries were concocted a few thousand years ago yet people still follow it to the letter. Largely by fear which is helped by a nice dose of ignorance and misunderstanding. Someone only need post a picture of Charles Darwin in the christian comic readers thread only for them to react vehemently and insist they are a troll, for simply posting a picture someone who published the theory of evolution. That tidbit in itself of how much misunderstanding and ignorance goes on against one of the most profound and important structures of knowledge of our entire history should show how much damage religion has dealt to not only potential but knowledge, understanding and so much more.

And why? Because it might well contradict what their bile or other religious text might say.

Religion is in favour of ignorance, intolerance, stupidity, control, delusion so yes of course it would be also against potential since potential brings progress.

That's humanity's fault, not religion.

But hey, good to know you insulted every religious person on her.

This thread needs to be locked though, Getting sick of insults from atheistd

#174 Posted by CaptnMcDeadpool (960 posts) - - Show Bio

Touchy subject. I'd have to say yes, at least initially to a certain predominant church in medieval Europe. Enlightenment through science was frowned upon to the point of accusing people of heresy, and even burning on the stake if one did not publicly recant said statements. Ironically, Galileo sought to establish the existence of God through science. His scientific discoveries, among others, lead him to believe that the earth, not the sun, did the revolving. Of course, he was right.

But.

He subsequently withdrew his statement at the "urging" of the said church. I don't discount the existence of God, but as a general rule, it seems like most organized religions do the opposite of what Christianity says they are supposed to be.

#175 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7705 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't blame religion on corrupt humans who don't abide by what they sworn to believe in.

This is exactly why I'm a Christian who believes in science, believes in God, but not the Church. Church is corrupt all right. People claim to be good but sin 6 days a week.

Just feel atheists spend too much time (whether real life or the internet) trying to bash God, and/or religious people. It's like if you dislike/don't believe in something why spend so much time on it.

People don't realize, that by essentially writing page long rants on why religion is bad all in some attempt to get people to agree with your way of thinking you essentially become what you despise.

#176 Edited by The_PAIN (720 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

Don't blame religion on corrupt humans who don't abide by what they sworn to believe in.

This is exactly why I'm a Christian who believes in science, believes in God, but not the Church. Church is corrupt all right. People claim to be good but sin 6 days a week.

6 days a week only?

#177 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7705 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_pain: Sunday they're good. I'm exaggerating though, just generalizing.

This topic is getting too serious though. You can never have religious topics on the internet, it essentially becomes religion bashing thread or atheist bashing thread. People need to stop concerning themselves with it, as if it's that big an influence on their lives what some other people believe. This isn't the Enlightenment era where people are going to be persecuted because you don't believe in God. Nah society's more developed than that. Let people believe what you want, and you believe what you want. The more time you spend bashing religion, now creates division between atheists & theists. We're all human, stay united.

Again, Christian who believes in God only, not the Church, but believe that science is God's way of connecting to humanity, similar to how Galileo wanted to use science to prove the existence of God.

#178 Posted by The_PAIN (720 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@the_pain: Sunday they're good. I'm exaggerating though, just generalizing.

This topic is getting too serious though. You can never have religious topics on the internet, it essentially becomes religion bashing thread or atheist bashing thread. People need to stop concerning themselves with it, as if it's that big an influence on their lives what some other people believe. This isn't the Enlightenment era where people are going to be persecuted because you don't believe in God. Nah society's more developed than that. Let people believe what you want, and you believe what you want. The more time you spend bashing religion, now creates division between atheists & theists. We're all human, stay united.

Again, Christian who believes in God only, not the Church, but believe that science is God's way of connecting to humanity, similar to how Galileo wanted to use science to prove the existence of God.

If you go by that then no one will be saved, the bible said that you have to be in one, not that I believe in the bible though.

#179 Posted by OverLordArhas (7771 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_pain said:

@oblivionknight said:

@the_pain: so the problem isn't the corrupt bastards, it isn't that people are constantly being manipulated by someone. It's just that one uses laws (which are meant to help maintain order and create "justice") and one uses religion?

The same result, same people doing the arm twisting, just a different tool.

It's terrible either way, sure. But, even without religion, such manipulation and arm twisting would occur.

By your statement, the world is a hopeless place where there are two sets of people, the MANIPULATOR and the MANIPULATED. Those who go against this system in time gets eaten by the system too becoming the MANIPULATOR themselves.

Your reference is the Ogre Slayer becoming the Ogre himself right?

#180 Posted by superstay (9802 posts) - - Show Bio

...lol

no

If the churches weren't there we'd find something also to pause ourselves with. It isn't the churches it's the Arrogant nosiness of those irrational members that stop us...hell most religions teach tolerance(with some contradictions here and there.)

d^_^b

#181 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (18018 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:


Yes I do and it has and it continues to do so.

Religion impedes on peoples lives, it harms those who may not be a part of it, either in religious related attacks or wars, or it limits equality and peoples rights. There is also a great deal of focus on censoring peoples view points that oppose religion or criticize it. And that is not even to mention how it holds back social and scientific advancement and change.

But not only that it also vastly limits the people who follow a particular religions ideology. Its lists of rule regulations and boundaries were concocted a few thousand years ago yet people still follow it to the letter. Largely by fear which is helped by a nice dose of ignorance and misunderstanding. Someone only need post a picture of Charles Darwin in the christian comic readers thread only for them to react vehemently and insist they are a troll, for simply posting a picture someone who published the theory of evolution. That tidbit in itself of how much misunderstanding and ignorance goes on against one of the most profound and important structures of knowledge of our entire history should show how much damage religion has dealt to not only potential but knowledge, understanding and so much more.

And why? Because it might well contradict what their bile or other religious text might say.

Religion is in favour of ignorance, intolerance, stupidity, control, delusion so yes of course it would be also against potential since potential brings progress.

That's humanity's fault, not religion.

But hey, good to know you insulted every religious person on her.

This thread needs to be locked though, Getting sick of insults from atheistd

Religion has being the thing that has excused such things. I detail it all in my post which you seem to have just ignored.

How have I insulted every religious person on here? I have criticized religion in my post and have explained my issues with it.

I also find it odd how you have failed to use the @ reply system seems to me you didn't want to be direct with me which is odd if you have an issue with what I say come out and say but don't be two faced about it.

I am sick of the religious thinking that there religious views should take province over everyone else 's view points and that any criticism of there religion is seen as an attack.

#182 Edited by OblivionKnight (3356 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_pain: the world is a place with corrupt people. I honestly feel there are fewer corrupt people than "pure" ones, but they are so willing to achieve their goals that they gain enough power to make a difference.

Look at hitler. He didn't simply use religion as a tool to brainwash Germans into following, he fed off the plight and poverty off the German people. As you can see, it wasn't just religion, but poverty as well. Not to mention hitler was just insane.

#184 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7705 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrdecepticonleader: Exactly, you're generalizing all religions.

No one said religious views should take province over everyone else, You need to stop using the past as an excuse. Right now you're atheist, no Christians barged in to your house and forced you to be Christian.

Sure religion may have caused war or limit equality/people's rights, but that's not necessarily the fault of religion, it's the fault of the people. A lot of religions condemn going to war in God's name, Muhammad even said "the ink of the scholar is more than the blood of a martyr".

You can't blame an entire belief system for what a few ignorant people do. "Oh there's a few terrorists, let's eliminate Islam". Bad people will exist without or without religion, only difference is with religion, they'll just use that as an excuse.

Sound like the same racists who feel "Well there's a lot of blacks in prison, maybe they shouldn't exist."

People kill each other over money, every day in the ghetto. Does that mean we should just eliminate money?

Sorry but there's a difference in criticizng religion, and saying stuff like it favors stupidity and ignorance, which essentially insinuates that anyone who believes in it is of that level.

P.S.: I have no problem with you criticizing religion (Everyone is free to their own opinion), just keep it civil & respectful. Once you start resorting to insults, it's no longer just expressing your opinion/criticizing.

@the_pain: True the Pope also said atheists could get into Heaven if good people. The Dead Sea Scrolls are probably the best text of the Bible.

#185 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (18018 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@mrdecepticonleader: Exactly, you're generalizing all religions.

No one said religious views should take province over everyone else, You need to stop using the past as an excuse. Right now you're atheist, no Christians barged in to your house and forced you to be Christian.

Sure religion may have caused war or limit equality/people's rights, but that's not necessarily the fault of religion, it's the fault of the people. A lot of religions condemn going to war in God's name, Muhammad even said "the ink of the scholar is more than the blood of a martyr".

People kill each other over money, every day in the ghetto. Does that mean we should just eliminate money?

Sorry but there's a difference in criticizng religion, and saying stuff like it favors stupidity and ignorance, which essentially insinuates that anyone who believes in it is of that level.

Um okay....

How am I generalizing all religions? I just see the common patterns and traits that seem to be consistent with religions, certainly of the religions that people follow today. I criticize and have issues with religion in part due to these common traits that are present in religion.

Using the past as an excuse? How so? You keep making these assumptions and claims yet when I ask you to explain why you have made these assumptions you fail to give me an answer. People are indoctrinated and forced into a particular religion from birth, religion is pressured on people and in many cases people who do choose to leave religion behind receive alot of negative backlash from there own family.

As I explained in my initial post religion is held in such high regard. And it likes to censor opposing view points that contradict and disprove religion. Fear and ignorance are used to keep religion in check. I only have to mention creationism as an example of religious ideology taking province and using fear and ignorance as opposed to reason and understanding.

The thing is religion is used to directly tell people to commit horrible acts. But such extremism that stems from religion is not really my main beef with religion right now since such acts are usually dismissed as such by any sane person. The issues I have problems with are the ones that are going unnoticed the likes of which I mentioned in my initial post. I mean religious extremism is only part of the problem that stems from religious ideology. There is the part that is socially acceptable.

It does though. Does that mean that religious people aren't intelligent or are stupid of course I have never insinuated such a thing all I pointed out was that religions are obviously in favour of such so they can be kept relevant. Since the only way they are kept relevant is through fear and ignorance. And keeping people "stupid".

#186 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7705 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrdecepticonleader: I quit, if you're just oging to keep making insults, and blaming religion for what some humans do, than I don't wish to discuss this with you. Don't need to read 4 paragraphs of you calling me stupid and ignorant because I believe in God.

#187 Edited by mrdecepticonleader (18018 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@mrdecepticonleader: I quit, if you're just oging to keep making insults, and blaming religion for what some humans do, than I don't wish to discuss this with you. Don't need to read 4 paragraphs of you calling me stupid and ignorant because I believe in God.

Again with all the assumptions. I doubt you actually took the time to read any of what I said. Well that much has being clear from start of this.

At least you wont be wasting anymore of my time then.

#188 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7705 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrdecepticonleader: No I read what you said. Considering I replied in 8 minutes, it didn't take that long to read 4 paragraphs, that essentially said I was forced to believe in God, and that they're keeping me stupid & ignorant out of fear and that it shouldn't exist.

#189 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (18018 posts) - - Show Bio
#190 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7705 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrdecepticonleader: "It does though. Does that mean that religious people aren't intelligent or are stupid of course I have never insinuated such a thing all I pointed out was that religions are obviously in favour of such so they can be kept relevant. Since the only way they are kept relevant is through fear and ignorance. And keeping people "stupid"."

Really not that big of a deal so oh well. I have friends who are atheist, so this isn't going to affect me, deeply.

#191 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

Once religion stops teaching children they will go to hell if they don't believe, or that human being are not all equal, or that its okay to judge other "religions", or that it's okay to rape, murder and treat their sons like cannon fodder -- once that happens, then I will stop criticizing it.

Until then -- nope. While the argument people are not all the same and don't believe in the parts of their religion that advocate the above -- not doing anything to change it or challenge it make you just as responsible so while the argument that it's the people and not the religion that make it detrimental sounds nice (and is probably truly believed by those who say it) -- it just is not true.

#192 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (18018 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@mrdecepticonleader: "It does though. Does that mean that religious people aren't intelligent or are stupid of course I have never insinuated such a thing all I pointed out was that religions are obviously in favour of such so they can be kept relevant. Since the only way they are kept relevant is through fear and ignorance. And keeping people "stupid"."

Really not that big of a deal so oh well. I have friends who are atheist, so this isn't going to affect me, deeply.

As I said religions are in favour of keeping people to the religion but that does not mean religious people cant think for themselves or make their own decisions just that religion heavily influences people. I mean you said you are religious but also accept science so to say that you have to observe the fact that science contradicts what religion says.

#193 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7705 posts) - - Show Bio

It is the people not the religion, hence why he hate terrorists, and not the text.

Don't know what you're reading though , I learned that we're equal, and that it isn't okay to rape, murder, and treat their sons. Besides other than extremists, most people know that it's not okay to do that stuff. Nowadays religious people still have a consciousness too.

And to say I'm not doing anything to change or challenge it?

Neither are you, we're all just discussing this on the internet, don't act like you're really out there in your community trying to do something about it.

The reason I don't do anything to try to change it is because it just creates division. With all that's going on in the world, we really don't need theists- atheists coming to conflict, I'm all about letting people believe what they want.

#194 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7705 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrdecepticonleader: That is true, but what religion says is vague. A lot of the Bible is basically written in poems.

Plus I think any Christian who uses a touch screen phone accepts science in some sort of way :)

#195 Posted by kfhrfdu_89_76k (3734 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, it does, every once in a while.

#196 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (18018 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

Once religion stops teaching children they will go to hell if they don't believe, or that human being are not all equal, or that its okay to judge other "religions", or that it's okay to rape, murder and treat their sons like cannon fodder -- once that happens, then I will stop criticizing it.

Until then -- nope. While the argument people are not all the same and don't believe in the parts of their religion that advocate the above -- not doing anything to change it or challenge it make you just as responsible so while the argument that it's the people and not the religion that make it detrimental sounds nice (and is probably truly believed by those who say it) -- it just is not true.

Yep. Also I think this is a reply to your comment.

@jnr6lil said:

It is the people not the religion, hence why he hate terrorists, and not the text.

Don't know what you're reading though , I learned that we're equal, and that it isn't okay to rape, murder, and treat their sons. Besides other than extremists, most people know that it's not okay to do that stuff. Nowadays religious people still have a consciousness too.

And to say I'm not doing anything to change or challenge it?

Neither are you, we're all just discussing this on the internet, don't act like you're really out there in your community trying to do something about it.

The reason I don't do anything to try to change it is because it just creates division. With all that's going on in the world, we really don't need theists- atheists coming to conflict, I'm all about letting people believe what they want.

just bridging the gap as all :)

@jnr6lil said:

@mrdecepticonleader: That is true, but what religion says is vague. A lot of the Bible is basically written in poems.

Well that is another issue then.

#197 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7705 posts) - - Show Bio

It isn't that big of a deal though. (I'm more pissed when you have some people who don't believe in God but still celebrate a holiday with his name in it, but that's another story for another day). With the world we live in there's much bigger issues going on, that actually deals more with everyday lives than something like this which has such a broad scope. I just don't want to walk down the street 10 years from now, and you see atheists & theists protesting against each other. I have no problem with religious debates, but debates are meant to spread knowledge, not convert others to a way of thinking, something which both religious people & atheists are guilty of. (Just generally speaking, not the people in this thread).

Essentially, the problem with religion now is the man-made institution it has become, and not the actual belief system it was meant for. It's no different than the Jesus Piece phenomenon. The Jesus Piece was just jewelry (nothing expensive, usually wood) used by a Christian, to remind themselves of their faith in their God, but entertainers turned it into a way to flash their wealth.

At the end of the day, I'm a person with a religion, not a religious person.

#198 Posted by OblivionKnight (3356 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: I can agree with this.

What I would also like to point out is that much of what's in the bible or holy text were things that may have been considered acceptable by their standards. We may see child brides and tribal wars, but those were things acceptable and common in THEIR times. This is one of the most annoying things that atheists or agnostics point out. "How can you follow a book that has rape and murder in it?" Newsflash, the Greeks and Romans that we revere as some if the most advanced civilizations and the precursors to the achievements of modern times were very fond of young boys and war. It was socially acceptable at the time.

#199 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7705 posts) - - Show Bio

@oblivionknight: Exactly, Look at the timeline of the Bible, It was obviously written in a time where their form of living was not socially acceptable by today's standards. It's why you have to interpret the Bible to the timeline you live in. Only extremists follow it down to the core, and still think the world is B.C.

I've even seen religious people say The Old Testament isn't exactly the perfect model of a religious text.

#200 Edited by OblivionKnight (3356 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: precisely the point. No sane person interprets the ENTIRE thing literally and applies everything to their life.