#5401 Posted by TDK_1997 (15096 posts) - - Show Bio

Cena indeed needs to expand his skill set.His moves are not many but they are good and effective.I don't care if he is a technical wrestler or a guy with a hundred moves as long as I like him and the way his matches move.I don't complain about him not being a technical wrestler because his moves are not that hard and they are effective and they look more street like(kinda) and that's his style.I have always liked him about that particular reason the most.He is a street fighter and his moves show it the best.

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#5402 Posted by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

You know what ? It's a damn shame Vince never let Roddy Piper win the WWE Championship.

#5403 Posted by TDK_1997 (15096 posts) - - Show Bio

You know what ? It's a damn shame Vince never let Roddy Piper win the WWE Championship.

Why u think so?

Online
#5404 Posted by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997 said:

@king_saturn said:

You know what ? It's a damn shame Vince never let Roddy Piper win the WWE Championship.

Why u think so?

Because Piper was an Awesome Heel... it would have been Great for him to have been WWE Champion at least for a little while. I mean heck even Sgt. Slaughter was WWE Champion... I think Piper is cooler than Slaughter personally.

#5405 Posted by russellmania77 (15842 posts) - - Show Bio

I was a die hard fan until The Miz won the title, than i was like this is stupid and i stopped watching wrestling

#5406 Edited by TDK_1997 (15096 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997 said:

@king_saturn said:

You know what ? It's a damn shame Vince never let Roddy Piper win the WWE Championship.

Why u think so?

Because Piper was an Awesome Heel... it would have been Great for him to have been WWE Champion at least for a little while. I mean heck even Sgt. Slaughter was WWE Champion... I think Piper is cooler than Slaughter personally.

I gues he could have been a WWE Champion at least for a while.
Are you going to watch WrestleMania this sunday?

Online
#5407 Posted by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997 said:

@king_saturn said:

@tdk_1997 said:

@king_saturn said:

You know what ? It's a damn shame Vince never let Roddy Piper win the WWE Championship.

Why u think so?

Because Piper was an Awesome Heel... it would have been Great for him to have been WWE Champion at least for a little while. I mean heck even Sgt. Slaughter was WWE Champion... I think Piper is cooler than Slaughter personally.

I gues he could have been a WWE Champion at least for a while.

Are you going to watch WrestleMania this sunday?

More than likely

#5408 Posted by TDK_1997 (15096 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997 said:

@king_saturn said:

@tdk_1997 said:

@king_saturn said:

You know what ? It's a damn shame Vince never let Roddy Piper win the WWE Championship.

Why u think so?

Because Piper was an Awesome Heel... it would have been Great for him to have been WWE Champion at least for a little while. I mean heck even Sgt. Slaughter was WWE Champion... I think Piper is cooler than Slaughter personally.

I gues he could have been a WWE Champion at least for a while.

Are you going to watch WrestleMania this sunday?

More than likely

What do you think about the matches?Especially the one between Cena and The Rock.

Online
#5409 Edited by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997 said:

@king_saturn said:

@tdk_1997 said:

@king_saturn said:

@tdk_1997 said:

@king_saturn said:

You know what ? It's a damn shame Vince never let Roddy Piper win the WWE Championship.

Why u think so?

Because Piper was an Awesome Heel... it would have been Great for him to have been WWE Champion at least for a little while. I mean heck even Sgt. Slaughter was WWE Champion... I think Piper is cooler than Slaughter personally.

I gues he could have been a WWE Champion at least for a while.

Are you going to watch WrestleMania this sunday?

More than likely

What do you think about the matches?Especially the one between Cena and The Rock.

I can only hope that they will be entertaining...

#5410 Edited by TDK_1997 (15096 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997 said:

@king_saturn said:

@tdk_1997 said:

@king_saturn said:

@tdk_1997 said:

@king_saturn said:

You know what ? It's a damn shame Vince never let Roddy Piper win the WWE Championship.

Why u think so?

Because Piper was an Awesome Heel... it would have been Great for him to have been WWE Champion at least for a little while. I mean heck even Sgt. Slaughter was WWE Champion... I think Piper is cooler than Slaughter personally.

I gues he could have been a WWE Champion at least for a while.

Are you going to watch WrestleMania this sunday?

More than likely

What do you think about the matches?Especially the one between Cena and The Rock.

I can only hope that they will be entertaining...

Me too.I really hope the matches to be entertaining.

Online
#5411 Posted by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

The WWE is really pushing Jack Swagger.

#5412 Posted by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

Who was the better technical wrestler ? Dean Malenko or Chris Benoit ?

#5413 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: Yes in the bigger event shows. Only 12 PPVs a year. Weekly is way more. If he were to do that, he would have a shorter career span.

Entertaining the audience has nothing to do with how many moves you have. You can entertain with promos, hell the 5 moves of doom are existed soley to entertain.

If you're a good worker, you don't need to be a technical wrestler. Technical wrestling is only a wrestling style. It is not needed. Austin was a great worker, and he was a brawler.

How do you know ?

The Five Moves of Doom are Boring... that's why we are having this Conversation in the First Place.

I mean if you like mediocre fighting then yeah... but Cena is boring as sh!t now because of his lack of skill set... Stone Cold Steve Austin was okay... but he did have a few moves in his set.

And still was a great worker in the ring. Raven once said it's not about how many moves you have but how you use them. HHH & Triple H had great matches, and they didn't require that many moves. Storytelling, selling, in ring psychology, crowd investment are what make you a good worker. Thinking adding 100 variations of a suplex is going to make him a better wrestler is just untrue, and any legend in the business will tell you that. Cena has already proven he can have great matches, on PPV and on TV recently, so could care less about him doing the 5 Moves of Doom, when I know he can't even expand due to being on the road for 300 days.

#5414 Posted by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn said:

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: Yes in the bigger event shows. Only 12 PPVs a year. Weekly is way more. If he were to do that, he would have a shorter career span.

Entertaining the audience has nothing to do with how many moves you have. You can entertain with promos, hell the 5 moves of doom are existed soley to entertain.

If you're a good worker, you don't need to be a technical wrestler. Technical wrestling is only a wrestling style. It is not needed. Austin was a great worker, and he was a brawler.

How do you know ?

The Five Moves of Doom are Boring... that's why we are having this Conversation in the First Place.

I mean if you like mediocre fighting then yeah... but Cena is boring as sh!t now because of his lack of skill set... Stone Cold Steve Austin was okay... but he did have a few moves in his set.

And still was a great worker in the ring. Raven once said it's not about how many moves you have but how you use them. HHH & Triple H had great matches, and they didn't require that many moves. Storytelling, selling, in ring psychology, crowd investment are what make you a good worker. Thinking adding 100 variations of a suplex is going to make him a better wrestler is just untrue, and any legend in the business will tell you that. Cena has already proven he can have great matches, on PPV and on TV recently, so could care less about him doing the 5 Moves of Doom, when I know he can't even expand due to being on the road for 300 days.

I agree with Raven to an extent... the problem is when you have seen all of a person's moves over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, like we have with John Cena it gets boring. See Raven can see that because no one saw his stank azz that much when he was in WCW, ECW or the WWE like we do with Cena. We have seen more of John Cena than we have essentially of any Wrestler that I can recall in the modern era... so it's important that he adds a little more to his skill set to keep his matches fresh. So what if Triple H and Rock have had good matches with limited moves... you forget that they also had some lackluster matches with limited moves too... because people get tired of seeing the same ole sh!t ( even though The Rock has some sort of Charisma Aura around him that makes him immune to being boring )... the point still stands that Cena needs to add a little more to his skill set to keep him entertaining... his matches get boring easy because he does the same sh!t and we know it because we have seen it already so much. The main reason this WM match will be entertaining is because we only see The Rock wrestle very seldom... and that alone will add to the excitement for this match... not Cena's weak azz skill set.

#5415 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn: *sigh* I'm basically arguing with the typical IWC mark....

Raven can say that because he actually has experience in the business and was a focal point of ECW, when it was major in the 90s. Oh and nor do we see Cena more than we see any other wrestler in the modern era. Cena doesn't even get that much screentime on RAW. And moves don't make a match. If you really think they do, go watch ROH than where they do 100 variations of a suplex, 100 submissions. A company where you can watch a guy take a superplex, than get up 2 seconds later as if it never happened. The 5 Moves Of Doom is a formula that's been used since the 80s. They're not going to get rid of it for smarks, that'll complain even when they get what they want. The Rock has added no excitement to the match. You talk about repetition but The Rock, has looked horrible on the microphone and in the ring. His matches have been disappointing and he got carried by Cena last year. He's still cutting the same old repetitive promos that are getting corny, and just not funny.

Great match, that's recent: Didn't require alot of moves

#5416 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: That match against Punk was good because they let Cena do some stuff though. It's clear he can use a sit-down powerbomb, WWE just don't let him do anything. He's booked awfully; ie, the same way Hogan was in the 80s.

When Cena is allowed to turn it up, he puts on terrific matches. You go back the last 8 Manias or so, and Cena generally has the best or second best match on the card.

Agreed with everything you said in your above posts. Good to see some people can live outside of the IWC's mandated dogma.

--------------------

Off topic. I am genuinely ashamed to own WM 27 on DVD. Awful, awful event. One match (that was eclipsed the year after) and a sh*thouse crowd combined with terrible booking and a seriously misguided major entrance led to one of the worst manias in a long, long time.

#5417 Edited by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: *sigh* I'm basically arguing with the typical IWC mark....

Raven can say that because he actually has experience in the business and was a focal point of ECW, when it was major in the 90s. Oh and nor do we see Cena more than we see any other wrestler in the modern era. Cena doesn't even get that much screentime on RAW. And moves don't make a match. If you really think they do, go watch ROH than where they do 100 variations of a suplex, 100 submissions. A company where you can watch a guy take a superplex, than get up 2 seconds later as if it never happened. The 5 Moves Of Doom is a formula that's been used since the 80s. They're not going to get rid of it for smarks, that'll complain even when they get what they want. The Rock has added no excitement to the match. You talk about repetition but The Rock, has looked horrible on the microphone and in the ring. His matches have been disappointing and he got carried by Cena last year. He's still cutting the same old repetitive promos that are getting corny, and just not funny.

Great match, that's recent: Didn't require alot of moves

What IWC mark ? Saying John Cena should add to his skill set is a bad thing to say now ? I mean you act like everyone should be riding Cena's jock.

Raven was only a focal point in ECW which was a third rate organization behind WCW and WWE. John Cena has been Top Tier Wrestler for the WWE for years now. John Cena has been on every freakin RAW and a lot of Smackdown events since 2004 easy... we see him all the time. I don't care how long he is out there for screen time... I am talking about consistency... the whole Great Worker speech you gave eludes to that because he is always on the shows... so we see him all the time. The entire point of this discussion was about Cena adding to his skill set because he has gotten boring with the same moves he has used over and over and over and over again. I don't watch Ring of Honor for a few reasons... 1. It does not come on at a decent time to even watch Wrestling 2. Even though they have a lot of moves... there is no story line at all usually. Again, this discussion was not about John Cena becoming The Man with 1000 Holds 2.0 it was only about him adding to what he already has. I don't really care if the Five Moves of Doom has been a set thing for a while... it's still boring to watch this guy do them all the time.

#5418 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn: I quit. You're better off watching spotfests

#5419 Posted by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: I quit. You're better off watching spotfests

How do you draw this Final Analysis from all we have discussed ?

#5420 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: I quit. You're better off watching spotfests

How do you draw this Final Analysis from all we have discussed ?

You said you want wrestlers to use more moves. Spotfests allow that. Lots of moves.

#5421 Edited by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn said:

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: I quit. You're better off watching spotfests

How do you draw this Final Analysis from all we have discussed ?

You said you want wrestlers to use more moves. Spotfests allow that. Lots of moves.

Actually I said I want to see John Cena use more moves, not all Wrestlers. John Cena is the flagship of the WWE company... he is the character we see the most of and usually he is the one who frequents the Main Events on RAW as well... because of this adding a few moves to his set would do him well in terms of keeping his matches interesting... I mean you can almost time exactly what moves he will use in certain situations.

#5422 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn: Or just working a different formula? Either way I doubt people will be entertained by Cena if he adds more moves. Just look at One Night Stand 06.

#5423 Edited by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: Or just working a different formula? Either way I doubt people will be entertained by Cena if he adds more moves. Just look at One Night Stand 06.

Well people are going to dislike John Cena no matter what, that's not the point. The point is even to the average Wrestling Fan you can see that Cena's moves are getting a little too redundant. I mean even Cena has to as well... otherwise, why would he even try other moves like he did in that CM Punk match ? Nothing wrong with at least a little variety... as far as what happened at One Night Stand 2006... isn't that when Cena was fighting RVD in that ECW style setting ? Again, it's obvious why Cena was hated there simply because of the setting...

#5424 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn: The story of his match with Punk, required him to use other moves. It wasn't just adding new moves for the sake of it. It built to the story of the match, to show how desperate these two were to win that they would go out of their usual arsenal to win.

Yeah and they said to Cena "You Can't Wrestle", even after he tried more moves they said "You still can't wrestle" Adding new moves won't change., especially that when he does try them people say they look sloppy and uncoordinated. Cena could cure cancer, and people will claim it's only for fans.

#5425 Edited by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: The story of his match with Punk, required him to use other moves. It wasn't just adding new moves for the sake of it. It built to the story of the match, to show how desperate these two were to win that they would go out of their usual arsenal to win.

Yeah and they said to Cena "You Can't Wrestle", even after he tried more moves they said "You still can't wrestle" Adding new moves won't change., especially that when he does try them people say they look sloppy and uncoordinated. Cena could cure cancer, and people will claim it's only for fans.

Well, then that's even better. Because that means the Creative Team realized that Cena using the same moves all the time was getting stale. Maybe they will do this a bit more often to switch up things.

#5426 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn: Point is it didn't change anything and that was back in 06, where the Cena love was just as great as the Cena hate. He tried new moves, and still got booed, so there's no point in potentially injuring him (As the Face of the WWE he's on the road for a good amount of the year, new moves can lead to more injuries), by adding new moves to his moveset when the fans would boo him regardless.

#5427 Posted by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: Point is it didn't change anything and that was back in 06, where the Cena love was just as great as the Cena hate. He tried new moves, and still got booed, so there's no point in potentially injuring him (As the Face of the WWE he's on the road for a good amount of the year, new moves can lead to more injuries), by adding new moves to his moveset when the fans would boo him regardless.

But it would make him more exciting to watch... Yeah, people will still boo him... but that's life. Also, no one is asking him to add really difficult moves to his skill set that could increase his risk for injury. Just some new stuff...

#5428 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn: Yeah but how would it be more exciting to watch if the crowd's booing him? Those are the ones he should be entertaining, not the guys on the internet.

New stuff leads to injuries. Yeah he may pull them off safely, but the technical style leads to lots of wear and tear, especially on the road.

#5429 Posted by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: Yeah but how would it be more exciting to watch if the crowd's booing him? Those are the ones he should be entertaining, not the guys on the internet.

New stuff leads to injuries. Yeah he may pull them off safely, but the technical style leads to lots of wear and tear, especially on the road.

More than half of the people that Boo him are still entertained by him... it's just that they love to hate the guy. Who knows... maybe some of them will come around if he was to show more moves eventually.

Again, no one is asking him to become Bret Hart or Kurt Angle ( just add a few more moves to his skill set )... yes, technically his risk for injury can go up slightly... but that is dependent upon how difficult the moves are he choose to add to his skill set too.

#5430 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn: They wouldn't boo him if they weren't entertained...And he's showed more moves in the past, what happened? They still booed.

Even if the moves aren't difficult, him using more moves is going to equal to longer matches which is just going to burn him out in the long run.

#5431 Posted by beautifulrevery (1521 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: Think of it like this, if Cena does the same moves every day of his career, busts out a new move or two during a single match and then his matches go back to the same formula, what's going to happen? The crowd won't care if he does a new move because they know they'll see the same old crap the next day. He has to consistently show that his moveset is expanded instead of just relying on one or two new moves every now and then to keep him fresh and entertaining to watch. It would be far different if he wasn't on TV every single week but he is whether you like him or not and as he is THE MAN right now he needs to be as entertaining as possible while ensuring his longevity. Creative/Vince/someone has him focusing almost entirely on longevity as opposed to entertainment value during his matches. I know Vince wants to an entertainment company but they've still gotta wrestle else they really will just be a soap opera.

Also semi-unrelated but why does Cena not do a power bomb? Why doesn't anyone do a powerbomb really anymore. Really simple moves to do and they look great for the hosses.

#5432 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@beautifulrevery: 1. People will still boo him regardless if he does a bunch of new moves. Cena did a German Suplex off the top rope, and people said it looked horrible.

2. He can't ensure his longetivty if you want him to go out and put on 5 star classics every week.

#5433 Edited by beautifulrevery (1521 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@beautifulrevery: 1. People will still boo him regardless if he does a bunch of new moves. Cena did a German Suplex off the top rope, and people said it looked horrible.

2. He can't ensure his longetivty if you want him to go out and put on 5 star classics every week.

1. I said he has to consistently use the new moves to show that they're not just one offs to shut up the people who say he can't wrestle. Also that german did look terrible as well as his hurricanranas but I digress.

2. I never said for him to go put on 5 star classics but he can't just follow the same supposedly safe match formula every week where he gets beat down the entirety of the match, pops up, hits 2 shoulder blocks, that slam whose name escapes me after they ALL do a wild swing at him, maybe the 5 knuckle shuffle unless it gets countered and proceeds to AA or STF them. Rinse and repeat. I said he needed a balance. Kane had a balance but now he's leaning more towards longevity since he's up there in age. Essentially what I want is for him to stop being Hogan which is what he is right now. No one in this era wants to see Hulk Ups. Those went out of style in the 90s with anyone except Hogan and maybe Taker at Wrestlemania.

#5434 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@beautifulrevery: 1. He has many great matches to show people he can't wrestle. Everyone knows that TV & PPV are two different things. Exactly if they looked terrible no point in him trying new moves. Granted all Germans look terrible from the top rope

2. But the safe formula is for longetivity because he's on the road for 300 days a year. Oh & the 5 Moves of Doom Formula was used by Bret also.

#5435 Edited by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: They wouldn't boo him if they weren't entertained...And he's showed more moves in the past, what happened? They still booed.

Even if the moves aren't difficult, him using more moves is going to equal to longer matches which is just going to burn him out in the long run.

That's not true at all... I mean some people boo him simply because he is a face in the WWE that represents the PG era of the company... but that does not mean he isn't entertaining to them in the ring. He entertains just like a villain does in a movie or in a comic book or in a video game from their perspective ( at least some of them ).

Why does it mean longer matches ? I mean if Cena did something else in place of the 5 Knuckle Shuffle... that would make the match longer ? I don't understand that sir.

#5436 Posted by beautifulrevery (1521 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@beautifulrevery: 1. He has many great matches to show people he can't wrestle. Everyone knows that TV & PPV are two different things. Exactly if they looked terrible no point in him trying new moves. Granted all Germans look terrible from the top rope

2. But the safe formula is for longetivity because he's on the road for 300 days a year. Oh & the 5 Moves of Doom Formula was used by Bret also.

1. I think you meant can on that one but I never said he was terrible. He's just mediocre in the ring. Let me put it like this. John Cena is a 7 who smarks think is a 3 that Vince pushes like 10.

2. I never said I like Bret, did I? You need to find balance or else you'll be hated in the years down the road when you absolutely NEED longevity to be your main focus. Look at Taker, now he needs to be protected or else I'm afraid he may break and unintentionally end the streak during a match therefore his matches are essentially finisher spam/false pins but the fans forgive him because he didn't always follow the safe road even when he was on the road 300+ days a year. Cena isn't 45-50, his body isn't broken down and he's still relatively young. He needs to find a point where he can be safe in the ring and yet not follow the same old crap he puts out week in or week out when he cares.

I'll be the first to admit that when he cares, he's a future hall of famer and one of the best in the business today but the other 80% of the time he's phoning it in. You know how I know? Because I've seen him at his best. I saw him from his debut match against Angle in the Ruthless Aggression Era, through his Doctor of Thuganomics phase, to the Marine, to the Never Give Up Fruity Pebbles guy we have now. I can tell you when he doesn't give a crap because I've seen him at his peak and he doesn't right now. He just had a divorce and didn't get to take time off. He probably has a host of nagging injuries and he has to carry the company on his back outside the ring so his in ring and promo work suffer because he's burnt out. You can see it, he doesn't care. He corpses at anyone who tries to eviscerate him on the mic and makes them look worse off. He doesn't sell his opponent's offense after the match, and his promo work has been absolutely terrible for the past 3 years with a good one here and there. He's not where he should be to be the face of the company when there ARE people who go out and give it their all week in and week out and ARE just as suited to be the face of the company but aren't because Vince/the board/Creative are afraid to pull the trigger.

#5437 Edited by The Stegman (26062 posts) - - Show Bio

It's so obvious Cena is going to beat Rock at Wrestlemania.

#5438 Edited by Mrgreenlantern (661 posts) - - Show Bio

if you guys enjoy classic wrestling and want a break from the current stuff google thakpn or head to thakpn.co.nr =) its only 70s upto mid 90s no current stuff wwe tna etc

#5439 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: They wouldn't boo him if they weren't entertained...And he's showed more moves in the past, what happened? They still booed.

Even if the moves aren't difficult, him using more moves is going to equal to longer matches which is just going to burn him out in the long run.

That's not true at all... I mean some people boo him simply because he is a face in the WWE that represents the PG era of the company... but that does not mean he isn't entertaining to them in the ring. He entertains just like a villain does in a movie or in a comic book or in a video game from their perspective ( at least some of them ).

Why does it mean longer matches ? I mean if Cena did something else in place of the 5 Knuckle Shuffle... that would make the match longer ? I don't understand that sir.

Except he isn't a villain.

I would keep the 5 Knuckle Shuffle. It's a crowd-popper, and builds to suspense in a match.

#5440 Posted by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn said:

@jnr6lil said:

@king_saturn: They wouldn't boo him if they weren't entertained...And he's showed more moves in the past, what happened? They still booed.

Even if the moves aren't difficult, him using more moves is going to equal to longer matches which is just going to burn him out in the long run.

That's not true at all... I mean some people boo him simply because he is a face in the WWE that represents the PG era of the company... but that does not mean he isn't entertaining to them in the ring. He entertains just like a villain does in a movie or in a comic book or in a video game from their perspective ( at least some of them ).

Why does it mean longer matches ? I mean if Cena did something else in place of the 5 Knuckle Shuffle... that would make the match longer ? I don't understand that sir.

Except he isn't a villain.

I would keep the 5 Knuckle Shuffle. It's a crowd-popper, and builds to suspense in a match.

1. Well to them he is. That's the Point. They need Cena to root against.

2. I would not mind if Cena used something else instead of it personally.

#5441 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn: Yes but he's a face.

@jnr6lil said:

@beautifulrevery: 1. He has many great matches to show people he can't wrestle. Everyone knows that TV & PPV are two different things. Exactly if they looked terrible no point in him trying new moves. Granted all Germans look terrible from the top rope

2. But the safe formula is for longetivity because he's on the road for 300 days a year. Oh & the 5 Moves of Doom Formula was used by Bret also.

1. I think you meant can on that one but I never said he was terrible. He's just mediocre in the ring. Let me put it like this. John Cena is a 7 who smarks think is a 3 that Vince pushes like 10.

2. I never said I like Bret, did I? You need to find balance or else you'll be hated in the years down the road when you absolutely NEED longevity to be your main focus. Look at Taker, now he needs to be protected or else I'm afraid he may break and unintentionally end the streak during a match therefore his matches are essentially finisher spam/false pins but the fans forgive him because he didn't always follow the safe road even when he was on the road 300+ days a year. Cena isn't 45-50, his body isn't broken down and he's still relatively young. He needs to find a point where he can be safe in the ring and yet not follow the same old crap he puts out week in or week out when he cares.

I'll be the first to admit that when he cares, he's a future hall of famer and one of the best in the business today but the other 80% of the time he's phoning it in. You know how I know? Because I've seen him at his best. I saw him from his debut match against Angle in the Ruthless Aggression Era, through his Doctor of Thuganomics phase, to the Marine, to the Never Give Up Fruity Pebbles guy we have now. I can tell you when he doesn't give a crap because I've seen him at his peak and he doesn't right now. He just had a divorce and didn't get to take time off. He probably has a host of nagging injuries and he has to carry the company on his back outside the ring so his in ring and promo work suffer because he's burnt out. You can see it, he doesn't care. He corpses at anyone who tries to eviscerate him on the mic and makes them look worse off. He doesn't sell his opponent's offense after the match, and his promo work has been absolutely terrible for the past 3 years with a good one here and there. He's not where he should be to be the face of the company when there ARE people who go out and give it their all week in and week out and ARE just as suited to be the face of the company but aren't because Vince/the board/Creative are afraid to pull the trigger.

Trust me, I've gone back and watched Cena in 05. The guy was talented and over as hell. He was getting Cena chants throughout the arena. Cena from 02-08 had potential to be a big a star as Rock-Austin. What happened? WWE stripped him of his creativity and decided that a trash-talking brawler just wasn't suitable anymore.

#5442 Posted by King Saturn (225168 posts) - - Show Bio

In any case, I really hope Wrestlemania is of quality throughout the event. Because the beginning of the weekend was sort of ruined with a lame ass UFC event.

#5443 Posted by beautifulrevery (1521 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: WWE seems to do it to all the babyfaces that they turn from the trash talking heels nowadays. Punk went form "pipe bomb" to clownshoes as a face against Lauranitis. Sheamus went from the brawler "I'll foight em!" irishman to "hurr I dropped a deuce in your car and wrecked it but it's ok because I'm a face". Orton went from punting people out of the company for a few months and taking on the Mcmahons to stand, pose, "Orton goes to that place where he hears voices!!!!!!" RKOOUTTANOWHERE! WWE seriously neuters what makes the heels over in the first place when they become faces. It's just that Cena is the one who is forced on the audience the most day in and day out. He comes off as an unapologetic douche to be honest. And then WWE wants to try and force us to like him between the commentary ("Listen to this crowd chanting for Cena!" while he's getting majority boos. "Cena is the most controversial superstar in the WWE!" when the audience is split more evenly.) Vince has placed all his eggs in one basket and now that the basket is failing and his eggs are falling out of it and breaking he'd rather use tape and glue to fix it instead of spreading the eggs over multiple baskets.

#5444 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: WWE seems to do it to all the babyfaces that they turn from the trash talking heels nowadays. Punk went form "pipe bomb" to clownshoes as a face against Lauranitis. Sheamus went from the brawler "I'll foight em!" irishman to "hurr I dropped a deuce in your car and wrecked it but it's ok because I'm a face". Orton went from punting people out of the company for a few months and taking on the Mcmahons to stand, pose, "Orton goes to that place where he hears voices!!!!!!" RKOOUTTANOWHERE! WWE seriously neuters what makes the heels over in the first place when they become faces. It's just that Cena is the one who is forced on the audience the most day in and day out. He comes off as an unapologetic douche to be honest. And then WWE wants to try and force us to like him between the commentary ("Listen to this crowd chanting for Cena!" while he's getting majority boos. "Cena is the most controversial superstar in the WWE!" when the audience is split more evenly.) Vince has placed all his eggs in one basket and now that the basket is failing and his eggs are falling out of it and breaking he'd rather use tape and glue to fix it instead of spreading the eggs over multiple baskets.

Yeah, clearly Vince screwed up. It's not like WWE is making more money that it ever has...

#5445 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: I mean they did make over 100 mil off of Cena in 2012. Honestly I don't think Cena cares anymore. He's lost the drive, no threats to his position.

Cena is controversial though, Rarely been a face of a company that got booed.

#5446 Edited by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: Honestly, I don't think that's true. He loves the business and he loves the fans. You see any interview he gives and he always adheres to Kayfabe, but still doesn't insult the reader's intelligence. In a recent one he was talking about how Punk could beat Taker at Mania, and everything he said made sense to a casual fan and to a smark.

I don't think he cares about being booed at all though. He's a true professional and as long as he stays a role model for kids who need one, I don't think he cares what older males think. Who does?

#5447 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: No one does really. You're making lots of money for WWE, Who cares if you're getting booed by people, who well aren't on the same pedestal as you.

#5448 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: Yep, pretty much. Not to mention that of the people booing him, a lot just download PPVs instead of buying them anyway lol

#5449 Edited by superstay (10498 posts) - - Show Bio
#5450 Edited by Jnr6Lil (7861 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: Exactly, it's good WWE don't pay attention to the internet. Granted there's some people with creative minds, that also understand the business aspect, but then there's some people who would do things like making Tyson Kidd, the longest reigning WWE Champion.