Pro-gay Christians

@Kal'smahboi said:

@soduh2 said:

@lykopis said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

@pooty said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

Nothing about the core beliefs in Christianity says that you have to be "anti-gay." It is the moral stance that the church has taken, but the core beliefs say nothing of it.

This is untrue. It is not something the church invented. From the old testament to the new testament, the bible itself speaks against homosexuality.

The Bible says that the act of homosexual sex is immoral. I said nothing about the Bible. I said the core beliefs of what it means to be a Christian: specifically, belief that Jesus is the savior.

Here's a link to a copy of the Roman Catholic "Apostle's Creed," which makes no mention of sexuality at all. It's a summary of the core beliefs of the religion, the points in which can mostly be agreed upon by most Catholic faiths.

In that case --- same sex couples should be allowed to be married -- to be baptised and to have their sins forgiven.

Your two points contradict each other. How can they be married AND have their sins forgiven if homoerotic actions are sinful? Not to mention the Apostles Creed comes after the NT documents were written.

They don't contradict each other. I said that the core beliefs of Christianity speak nothing of sexuality and then I referenced a document that expresses the core beliefs of Christianity based on the Roman Catholic church, in order to demonstrate the fact.

It doesn't mention sexuality, but it mentions the authority of the Catholic Church (at the time, not just roman) and the forgiveness of sins. The churches authority was derived from scripture which still condemned homosexuality, as a sin, at the time. There's really no way to hop around it.

@Kal'smahboi: First of all, homosexuals can be Baptized and have their sins forgiven in the Catholic church.

after they are baptized, do they still practice homosexuality?

the power to marry a couple in the name of God is one held by the Christian institutions, so they can choose who they allow to do so

I understand homosexuality is not against the core beliefs but it is against many commandments. so why would a church choose to marry homosexuals when the bibles speaks against homosexuality?

@soduh2 said:

@lykopis said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

@pooty said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

Nothing about the core beliefs in Christianity says that you have to be "anti-gay." It is the moral stance that the church has taken, but the core beliefs say nothing of it.

This is untrue. It is not something the church invented. From the old testament to the new testament, the bible itself speaks against homosexuality.

The Bible says that the act of homosexual sex is immoral. I said nothing about the Bible. I said the core beliefs of what it means to be a Christian: specifically, belief that Jesus is the savior.

Here's a link to a copy of the Roman Catholic "Apostle's Creed," which makes no mention of sexuality at all. It's a summary of the core beliefs of the religion, the points in which can mostly be agreed upon by most Catholic faiths.

In that case --- same sex couples should be allowed to be married -- to be baptised and to have their sins forgiven.

Your two points contradict each other. How can they be married AND have their sins forgiven if homoerotic actions are sinful? Not to mention the Apostles Creed comes after the NT documents were written.

I agree. They do contradict each other.

@pooty said:

@Kal'smahboi: First of all, homosexuals can be Baptized and have their sins forgiven in the Catholic church.

after they are baptized, do they still practice homosexuality?

the power to marry a couple in the name of God is one held by the Christian institutions, so they can choose who they allow to do so

I understand homosexuality is not against the core beliefs but it is against many commandments. so why would a church choose to marry homosexuals when the bibles speaks against homosexuality?

Politics

@pooty: Thing is -- homosexuality is against the core beliefs of the Catholic church as the purpose of marriage is to go forth and multiply. That simple. So -- if anything, the Catholic Church targets homosexuality as a complete perversion to the sacrament of marriage.

@pooty: @Quandary: @Kal'smahboi: @lykopis: @soduh2 said:

@god_spawn said:

"It is Christian to commit oneself to life and the possibility of living of each individual, not to preach suffering or to sanctify masochism. Otherwise...death and the negation of life would as always have the last word." -E. Drewermann, translated by M. Beier A Violent God Image

I love the quote. I am a Christian and I am incredibly pro-choice. If 2 people want to get married, let them.

On what authority does he have the right to make that judgement? That quote can conflict with some of the teachings of Jesus according to the gospels.

Jesus did not have a problem with gay people.

The only branches of Christianity that would warp such believe is the Baptist, the Protestants, the Mormons, and the Methodist (with some other minor branches)

The two major branches and oldest branches:

1. Greek Orthodox: The 1st developed Christianity church
2. Roman Catholic: Broke off of the Greek Orthodox because they wanted to establish a central Leader (a Pope)

Do not have scriptures of Jesus ever criticizing homosexuals.

Even the Old Testament with Mosus' 10 Commandments doesn't specifically mention it. (Though some would argue that "Thu shall not commit adultery" as one, it is not.)

Also, there are A LOT of gay people that are, say, Catholic but do believe that Gay's should NOT be Married because the very definition of the word Marriage is to be joined as Husband (male) and Wife (female). However, that same group of gay Catholics, still believe that despite the word Marriage, they also believe in Partnership. So if you see a Catholic gay couple, they will call their significant other (the one they love), "Partner in life".

And, as mentioned in some previous threads I read somewhere around here, forgot the name of the thread, but I remember posting on it; It is natural for gay people to be present here on this Earth since they are the balance placed by God to keep the human race from overpopulating the Earth which leads to human self-destruction. So when you hear gay people saying, "I was born gay..." ... Believe them.

@TheSecondOpinion said:

Jesus did not have a problem with gay people.

-He didn't have to, he was speaking to a bunch of Jews. .Argument from absence. Now he did restrict sexuality in his teachings which conflicts with pro-gay rhetoric.

The only branches of Christianity that would warp such believe is the Baptist, the Protestants, the Mormons, and the Methodist (with some other minor branches)

The two major branches and oldest branches:

1. Greek Orthodox: The 1st developed Christianity church
2. Roman Catholic: Broke off of the Greek Orthodox because they wanted to establish a central Leader (a Pope)

Orthodox and Catholics speak against homosexuality as well. They justy do so on "church authority" as well as scripture authority (most protestant groups only use the latter).

Do not have scriptures of Jesus ever criticizing homosexuals.

-Jesus didn't say a lot of things.

Even the Old Testament with Mosus' 10 Commandments doesn't specifically mention it. (Though some would argue that "Thu shall not commit adultery" as one, it is not.)

-The Law which came from Moses did speak against it.

Also, there are A LOT of gay people that are, say, Catholic but do not believe that Gay's should NOT be Married because the very definition of the word Marriage is to be joined as Husband (male) and Wife (female). However, that same group of gay Catholics, still believe that despite the word Marriage, they also believe in Partnership. So if you see a Catholic gay couple, they will call their significant other (the one they love), "Partner in life".

- They can call it what they want, doesn't change anything.

And, as mentioned in some previous threads I read somewhere around here, forgot the name of the thread, but I remember posting on it; It is natural for gay people to be present here on this Earth since they are the balance placed by God to keep the human race from overpopulating the Earth which leads to human self-destruction. So when you hear gay people saying, "I was born gay..." ... Believe them.

-The Bible also talks about chastity and celibacy, that does a good job at keeping the population at bay as well as STDs.

@TheSecondOpinion said:

@lykopis: @pooty: @soduh2 said:

@god_spawn said:

"It is Christian to commit oneself to life and the possibility of living of each individual, not to preach suffering or to sanctify masochism. Otherwise...death and the negation of life would as always have the last word." -E. Drewermann, translated by M. Beier A Violent God Image

I love the quote. I am a Christian and I am incredibly pro-choice. If 2 people want to get married, let them.

On what authority does he have the right to make that judgement? That quote can conflict with some of the teachings of Jesus according to the gospels.

Jesus did not have a problem with gay people.

The only branches of Christianity that would warp such believe is the Baptist, the Protestants, the Mormons, and the Methodist (with some other minor branches)

The two major branches and oldest branches:

1. Greek Orthodox: The 1st developed Christianity church
2. Roman Catholic: Broke off of the Greek Orthodox because they wanted to establish a central Leader (a Pope)

Do not have scriptures of Jesus ever criticizing homosexuals.

Even the Old Testament with Mosus' 10 Commandments doesn't specifically mention it. (Though some would argue that "Thu shall not commit adultery" as one, it is not.)

Also, there are A LOT of gay people that are, say, Catholic but do not believe that Gay's should NOT be Married because the very definition of the word Marriage is to be joined as Husband (male) and Wife (female). However, that same group of gay Catholics, still believe that despite the word Marriage, they also believe in Partnership. So if you see a Catholic gay couple, they will call their significant other (the one they love), "Partner in life".

And, as mentioned in some previous threads I read somewhere around here, forgot the name of the thread, but I remember posting on it; It is natural for gay people to be present here on this Earth since they are the balance placed by God to keep the human race from overpopulating the Earth which leads to human self-destruction. So when you hear gay people saying, "I was born gay..." ... Believe them.

Understood -- however, like I stated in previous posts --- marriage in the Catholic Church is specifically for the procreation of children. A couple who do not have children and who actively prevent getting pregnant through the use on contraception is not allowing the Holy Spirit into their union and are therefore rejecting God. Homosexuality is considered sinful because of it being a condition in which children would not be a product of their unions.

Edited to add: Product of homosexual unions naturally (to be clear)

@TheSecondOpinion:

The RCC didn't want to establish a central authority. After the Roman empire was split the Bishop of Rome was forced in to that position because they were isolated from the eastern branches. Off topic though...

@TheSecondOpinion said:

@pooty: @Quandary: @Kal'smahboi: @lykopis: @soduh2 said:

@god_spawn said:

"It is Christian to commit oneself to life and the possibility of living of each individual, not to preach suffering or to sanctify masochism. Otherwise...death and the negation of life would as always have the last word." -E. Drewermann, translated by M. Beier A Violent God Image

I love the quote. I am a Christian and I am incredibly pro-choice. If 2 people want to get married, let them.

On what authority does he have the right to make that judgement? That quote can conflict with some of the teachings of Jesus according to the gospels.

Jesus did not have a problem with gay people.

The only branches of Christianity that would warp such believe is the Baptist, the Protestants, the Mormons, and the Methodist (with some other minor branches)

The two major branches and oldest branches:

1. Greek Orthodox: The 1st developed Christianity church
2. Roman Catholic: Broke off of the Greek Orthodox because they wanted to establish a central Leader (a Pope)

Do not have scriptures of Jesus ever criticizing homosexuals.

Even the Old Testament with Mosus' 10 Commandments doesn't specifically mention it. (Though some would argue that "Thu shall not commit adultery" as one, it is not.)

Also, there are A LOT of gay people that are, say, Catholic but do not believe that Gay's should NOT be Married because the very definition of the word Marriage is to be joined as Husband (male) and Wife (female). However, that same group of gay Catholics, still believe that despite the word Marriage, they also believe in Partnership. So if you see a Catholic gay couple, they will call their significant other (the one they love), "Partner in life".

And, as mentioned in some previous threads I read somewhere around here, forgot the name of the thread, but I remember posting on it; It is natural for gay people to be present here on this Earth since they are the balance placed by God to keep the human race from overpopulating the Earth which leads to human self-destruction. So when you hear gay people saying, "I was born gay..." ... Believe them.

Just because Jesus did not say it does not make it any less of a commandment. Jesus did say "obey God and keep his commandments". Those commandments include abstaining from homosexuality.

@inferiorego: ZING!

If god didn't want gay people he wouldn't have made them that way.God doesn't make mistakes. everything is here for a reason. No mean to offend.

I am adding this just for some context, I am NOT stating my personal view at this time. All quotes in NIV.

Leviticus 18:22 "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

In both cases the word translated as "detestable" is the Hebrew word to'ebah which is also translated as abomination in other versions.

Now in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus "expanded" upon the Levitical Law by moving the sinful acts from not only the realm of actions but beyond that to the realm of thought and intent.

So how does the New Testament view the act of "a man lying with another man as with a woman" ?

In his letter to the church at Rome, the Apostle Paul dictates a sermon where he is making a case for God's righteous wrath against mankind and the provision God has made for the salvation of mankind through the atoning sacrifice of the Christ. Within that sermon he makes a germain statement which I will quote: Romans 1:21-32 (NIV)

"For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but thier thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator- who is forever praised. Amen

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and recieved in themselves the due penalty for thier perversion.

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deciet and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

It may be worth continuing on through Romans 2 and 3 to get the final gist of the sermon, but in regards to the idea of "a man lying with another man as with a woman" and now also "women who exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones" , it may be somewhat difficult to believe that Christian's can be pro-gay.

It isn't worth the effort to reply to everyone that's responded to me in this thread, so I'm just going to say what I think here, and maybe you'll all see it.
 
You've all missed my point, entirely. I do not wish to argue about the beliefs of christian INSTITUTIONS. The core beliefs of Christianity--that Jesus is Christ--has nothing to do with the morality of sexuality. It is possible to see Jesus as a savior and believe that homosexuality is a moral lifestyle without self-contradiction. If you're viewpoints on Christianity are narrowed only to what the organized sector tells you, then you have a more difficult time doing so. That's all that I mean to say.

@Kal'smahboi:

I do not wish to argue about the beliefs of christian INSTITUTIONS.

If you're viewpoints on Christianity are narrowed only to what the organized sector tells you

If you have NEVER stepped into a church or any religious institution and have ONLY read the bible, you would see that homosexuality is wrong. not because an institution says so, the bible says so.

John 15:10

If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love

If Jesus has to keep God's commandments so should all Christians.

@kuonphobos:

Thanks for that -- it's quite clear, isn't it?

@Kal'smahboi:

Fair enough. My participation in this thread is specifically targeted to teachings of Christianity in many faiths and in that context, its not possible in my mind to logically declare yourself a Christian and support homosexuality and same-sex marriage. I think it is commendable many people attempt to take their understanding of what Jesus represented and have it universally applied to all people (as in the case of homosexuality). If anything, I wish a new religion would come from this attitude which is the adapting argument a few have made on here.

As it stands now though -- to be Christian, its to reject homosexuality. Institutionally, yes, but also from the bible which is what Christianity turns to for inspiration and direction.

I appreciate your insights though -- you brought a different perspective to the discussion.

@lykopis: There are really three perspectives on homosexuality within Christianity:

1. The content majority whose opinion is driven by scripture alone.

2. The revolutionary minority who supports it.

3. The homophobic minority who thinks its the worst sin of all time.

I would argue that group one would be willing to change if group two had a better (more defined) argument. The secret to deconstructing homosexual opposition within the church is challenging every position on sexuality presented.

@Kal'smahboi said:

You've all missed my point, entirely. I do not wish to argue about the beliefs of christian INSTITUTIONS. The core beliefs of Christianity--that Jesus is Christ--has nothing to do with the morality of sexuality. It is possible to see Jesus as a savior and believe that homosexuality is a moral lifestyle without self-contradiction. If you're viewpoints on Christianity are narrowed only to what the organized sector tells you, then you have a more difficult time doing so. That's all that I mean to say.

I understand your point, its just inaccurate. You place the creed as the central authority of Christian teaching as a whole, but the creed recognizes the church as an authority as well as the doctrine of forgiveness of sins. Both of those points point to scripture which in turn condemn homosexuality. When you try to only look at the fundamentals of the faith the scripture comes right back at you.

@Kovak said:

2nd favorite scene from stormwatch

@King Saturn said:

there can be no Pro Gay Christians...
Pro Gay Theists are heavily scattered across America... but these people in the eyes of Yahweh maybe looked at as Heretics and Idol Worshippers... for the simple fact they mix yheir own theological views with what Yahweh said in the Bible... they rationalize it together to get their own harmonious doctrine.

Exactly.

@soduh2 said:

@lykopis: There are really three perspectives on homosexuality within Christianity:

1. The content majority whose opinion is driven by scripture alone.

2. The revolutionary minority who supports it.

3. The homophobic minority who thinks its the worst sin of all time.

I would argue that group one would be willing to change if group two had a better (more defined) argument. The secret to deconstructing homosexual opposition within the church is challenging every position on sexuality presented.

Nicely outlined.

I am a Roman Catholic. We believe that homosexuality is wrong. By that we mean acting upon urges to have sexual interactions with someone of the same sex.

However, that only applies if you are in fact Catholic. It is also in our beliefs that we are to let God judge, it is not our place to judge. Therefore, we cannot tell a homosexual who is not Catholic that they are wrong. We simply tolerate them. Tolerate means to recognize and respect another's beliefs, but not to necessarily agree or sympathize with them. What other people do is their business. We are meant to spread the Good News, etc. Meaning we bring people into the Faith and then they learn about our Faith and decide whether they truly believe it or not.

Hence, we do not support gay-marriage among Catholics or people wanting to be Catholic. What other people do is their business when it is something that does not directly affect other people, especially not necessarily in a negative way.

Church and state are separate and, on this matter, it is none of my business what other's are doing.

No. You cannot be a true Christian believer and support gay marriage. Nobody's perfect in their practice, mind you. But if you believe that the Bible is the Word of God, then there is no way to justify a same sex marriage. Those that do are doing a disservice to their faith. There. That was easy.

I would like to say that in principle I do not support discrimination of any kind. I believe that the core motivation within a person /society to not discriminate is a noble one which all moral people can support.

As a Christian and as an American, I find myself a citizen of two spheres. In my role as a citizen of the USA and the world I believe that any democratic secular society should be free to determine it's path. In that regard I believe all citizens have freedom from the federal government to act freely. So in my personal life I do not use the democratic system to attempt to influence any legislation which would give the federal government undue power over the personal lives of it's citizens.

That being said, I am also a Christian and according to Christian theology that makes me also a citizen of the Kingdom of God. In that regard, the teachings of God revealed through scripture are clear on the point that homosexuality is a sin. But let me also say that as you can see in the scripture passages I posted earlier, in both the Old and New Testaments, much of homosexuality was associated with the worship practices of "false" religions. For the most part that is no longer the case at least in the West.

Another point is that homosexuality was one sin in a litany of sins. Therefore it leads to the same outcome as any other sin. To single it out is not appropriate in my view. Certainly to make it the central focus of a campaign of hate is not remotely in the spirit of Christ. During His time Jesus spent nearly all of his time with the marginalized. He dined with tax collectors and prostitutes in a time when a rabbi could not even enter the home of such a person. He allowed Mary called the Magdaline to touch his feet. A rabbi allowing a fallen woman to touch him?

He touched lepers, the blind, the lame, the ill at a time when people believed those infirmities were due to sin.

So I say all of that to say this. I am torn on the issue. But I am a sinner. A really big sinner. I cannot cast the first stone. I want people to be happy and fulfilled. So in regards to the issue of homosexuality I live in tension. I have had great, great friends who were gay. I have had spiritual leaders who were gay. I loved them and respected them then and I still do now.

Let's all be gay! Gay party at my house!!!

It's difficult to attribute social prerequisites to an eclectic group of people who either use the books as personal moral compasses or as a means to further their agendas. Frankly, it's a tired subject.

Yes. What is a Christian. A believer that Jesus of Nazareth is the Incarnation of God. Christians should believe in what Jesus taught and did aka. the Gospel (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John)

Homosexuality is not condemned in the Gospel. Condemnation is only found in the old testaments and within the letters of Paul and even then only gay sex is condemned.

The bible is against homosexual sex because it doesn't procreate. Because homosexual sex does not procreate the Bible is against homosexual marriage. Bible definition of marriage has to do with procreation.

In today's society marriage (well ideally) is about love. There isn't this pressure of procreation anymore so our definition can include same sex couples.

In conclusion yes, you can be a follower of Jesus and believe in Jesus's All loving, benevolent God and still support homosexuality.

@kuonphobos: He allowed Mary called the Magdaline to touch his feet. A rabbi allowing a fallen woman to touch him

I will ask you as i have asked others: where does it say Mary Magdaline was a "fallen women" or prostitute? I have never seen it. thanks

@minigunman123: Very Well Said, And I Couldn't Have Said It Better Than Myself.

@pooty: I think you are correct. The is the Magdalene who was a demoniac and there is Mary the sister of Martha and Lazarus. I believe they have been conflated in tradition and in film/popular culture. My error. Still a rabbi wouldn't have touched a woman whom he was not married to wheter she be a prostitute, a former demoniac or a Samaritan at a well.

@IfDCRuledTheWorld: You can be a christian and not believe the bible to be the absolute word of God. In fact the Sanhedrin tried to use the bible to have Jesus put to death. Jesus himself didn't follow many rules in the bible and condemned those who followed it like day and night.

@pooty: True.

I consider myself Christian kind of and not only do I not have a problem with gays, but I support their cause. In my opinion it is also possible to be both gay and Christian.

Deism all the way!

I have my own beliefs and they don't involve dislike of gays.

@thespideyguy said:

Ninety percent of Americans believe in god.

Not true, a recent study showed that about 26 to 32 percent of Americans are atheist. Although by atheist this included people who simply don't believe in any religions, but MIGHT still believe there is some higher power out there.

@IfDCRuledTheWorld: Exactly.

@pooty: It was when Justus said let he without sin cast the first stone. As for the prostitute I don't know, because I thought it said adulterer.

Eh, my church has had a couple gay couples as members, so I've kinda been over the whole thing for awhile now. The two women there now are both members of the choir. What many people often forget is that while the bible may contain some of the teachings of God and Jesus; it was edited and compiled by people. And if there's one thing humans excel at it's screwing things up with their own opinions and prejudices.

I always figured since "love thy neighbor as yourself" was supposed to be the number one, uber-rule; that I'd stick with that. After all, the world THAT long ago was an almost alien place compared to today. The bible's rules against sleeping with animals and/or the same gender might have been put in there for no other reason than because these people NEEDED more babies. Survival for them on a day to day basis wasn't anywhere NEAR as certain as it is for us; and a couple that wasn't producing more humans to work the fields and such was dangerous dead weight.

@Uno_Oscuro said:

@thespideyguy said:

Ninety percent of Americans believe in god.

Not true, a recent study showed that about 26 to 32 percent of Americans are atheist. Although by atheist this included people who simply don't believe in any religions, but MIGHT still believe there is some higher power out there.

I assume many studies are done and this one agrees with Spideyguy

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx

@pooty said:

@Uno_Oscuro said:

@thespideyguy said:

Ninety percent of Americans believe in god.

Not true, a recent study showed that about 26 to 32 percent of Americans are atheist. Although by atheist this included people who simply don't believe in any religions, but MIGHT still believe there is some higher power out there.

I assume many studies are done and this one agrees with Spideyguy

http://www.gallup.com/poll/147887/Americans-Continue-Believe-God.aspx

That it does, that...it....does.

The Bible is too ambiguous for this conversation to go anywhere. The only parts of the Bible that speak of homosexuality negatively/at all to my knowledge are in Genesis and Leviticus. On the other hand there is judge not, lest ye be judged and love thy neighbour. There are contradicting philosophies all through the Bible and so this can't actually go anywhere. As for my views I am actively for the rights of homosexuals and I'm not sure whether I believe in Christianity or Deism. Either way I don't believe my faith and my views on human rights conflict.

@soduh2 said:

@inferiorego:

Support slavery!

-Condone slavery as a cultural reality, but there are no commandments to support or own slaves. Overarching Christian teachings make slavery disadvantageous.

Don't eat shellfish!

-Negated by the NT. Jesus said, its not what comes in to the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out. The the acts vision from peter, don't call unclean what I have made clean.

Sacrifice a goat after your wife's menstruation period!

-Cultural law, negated by Jesus being the ultimate sacrifice

No tattoos!

-Cultural law, made to distinguish the Hewbrews from their neighbors

Don't wear clothes of multiple fabrics!

-Same as above

Marry your brother's wife, if your brother dies!

-Cultural law, doesn't apply in the NT context where be fruitful and multiply has been replaced with "woe to those who are with child" in the last days.

Don't mix crops while planting!

-Cultural law, same as the clothes and tatoos

Beat your wife!

-Doesn't apply to the NT, not sure if that's even accurate for the OT.

For more insanity, please read Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

-Case and point

THANK YOU,SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY READ THE BIBLE AND HAS ENOUGH COMMON SENSE TO PUT TOGETHER 2 AND 2!

you get a follow.

IT seems like every atheist (or most,btw this is not to all atheists, definitely not all) who uses things like that not only take these out of context,but don't even use their head.They cherry pick those,and haven't even read the bible.Because of people like you I still have hope.

Besides for all of you one sided people,I have an atheist friend (best friend btw) who doesn't like gay people.

@minigunman123 said:

@inferiorego said:

@minigunman123 said:

If you're a Christian, believe in Jesus Christ as your savior and believe his teachings, and believe he is the son of God (this is the true definition of a CHRISTian), then no, you can't support gay marriage without compromising your beliefs. That doesn't mean Christians are meant to hate gays, or that they do hate gays, though. That just means we don't approve of the lifestyle. Doesn't mean we have to shout "you're gay! God hates you!", because he doesn't. People who do are just as bad as people who call soldiers baby-killers because they haven't a good enough understanding or enough brain cells to think about things critically.

Personally, I'm always a bit annoyed to see Christians who support gay marriage; they're two conflicting beliefs. So, which is it? Do you believe in God, or believe in Man? You can't have both. If a Christian supports gay marriage, I understand they're trying to be nice to people, and that's wonderful in one way, but it makes me greatly question their actual faith in being a Christian. It's like condoning murder (no, homosexuals are not murderers, but all sin is equal to God, meaning I'm just as bad as a murderer who's just as bad as a homosexual who's just as bad as my Mother). It goes against everything you say you believe in to condone such things. Why believe in two things that go completely against each other?

That said, I also do not hold non-Christians quite accountable for the same things. I don't support gay marriage, but if you're non-Christian and homosexual, I might not approve of it, but I won't stand in your way. If I argued against it, you'd just think I was a jerk, and maybe you're an awesome person. It's when a person's both Christian and homosexual that really bothers me, because it's like they're running away from what they think they want to believe; it makes me want to ask them, "OK, so what do you really believe in?"

There's no such thing as a true Christian who follows the Bible. If you are, then you do these things as well has hating homosexuals:

Support slavery!

Don't eat shellfish!

Sacrifice a goat after your wife's menstruation period!

No tattoos!

Don't wear clothes of multiple fabrics!

Marry your brother's wife, if your brother dies!

Don't mix crops while planting!

Beat your wife!

For more insanity, please read Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

And so the Christian bashing begins! Really, would've expected more from a staff member.

The New testament teaches different things. The New Testament is what we're meant to follow. You should know this if you claim to be such an expert on the Bible.

EDIT: Also, I specifically said I don't hate gays. Nice job with the reading skills there. I also never mentioned the Bible in my post. You brought this all up out of the blue. Umadbro =3

It hardly seems like he is "Christian bashing".

Instead of replying in a negative way, it would have been more prevalent to respond with your third sentence only.

My parents believe in God, they are Christian, and support gay marriage, equal rights and the whole shebang. As someone that grew up Christian (though I am now Apatheistic) I was surrounded by a church, pastors/what have you who truly believed that homosexuality was completely ok.

I do have questions for you, I know you are not an EXPERT on the bible, because that's foolish, with so many copies and convolutions but here is my question. With your point about the New Testament, what's the point of all the rules of Deut. and Levit.? What are they there for? Why spend an insurmountable amount of time writing them, and publishing them in every issue of the bible if they do not matter?

@Crackdown: The old testament including the laws from Deut and Levit were meant ONLY for the sons of Abraham aka the israelites aka the jews. They are still in the Bible as a history lesson and to show how God operated back then. Also the stories of his early followers are very encouraging. Nevertheless, Jews today still follow the Old Testament because it was written specifically for them.

@Crackdown said:

@minigunman123 said:

@inferiorego said:

@minigunman123 said:

If you're a Christian, believe in Jesus Christ as your savior and believe his teachings, and believe he is the son of God (this is the true definition of a CHRISTian), then no, you can't support gay marriage without compromising your beliefs. That doesn't mean Christians are meant to hate gays, or that they do hate gays, though. That just means we don't approve of the lifestyle. Doesn't mean we have to shout "you're gay! God hates you!", because he doesn't. People who do are just as bad as people who call soldiers baby-killers because they haven't a good enough understanding or enough brain cells to think about things critically.

Personally, I'm always a bit annoyed to see Christians who support gay marriage; they're two conflicting beliefs. So, which is it? Do you believe in God, or believe in Man? You can't have both. If a Christian supports gay marriage, I understand they're trying to be nice to people, and that's wonderful in one way, but it makes me greatly question their actual faith in being a Christian. It's like condoning murder (no, homosexuals are not murderers, but all sin is equal to God, meaning I'm just as bad as a murderer who's just as bad as a homosexual who's just as bad as my Mother). It goes against everything you say you believe in to condone such things. Why believe in two things that go completely against each other?

That said, I also do not hold non-Christians quite accountable for the same things. I don't support gay marriage, but if you're non-Christian and homosexual, I might not approve of it, but I won't stand in your way. If I argued against it, you'd just think I was a jerk, and maybe you're an awesome person. It's when a person's both Christian and homosexual that really bothers me, because it's like they're running away from what they think they want to believe; it makes me want to ask them, "OK, so what do you really believe in?"

There's no such thing as a true Christian who follows the Bible. If you are, then you do these things as well has hating homosexuals:

Support slavery!

Don't eat shellfish!

Sacrifice a goat after your wife's menstruation period!

No tattoos!

Don't wear clothes of multiple fabrics!

Marry your brother's wife, if your brother dies!

Don't mix crops while planting!

Beat your wife!

For more insanity, please read Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

And so the Christian bashing begins! Really, would've expected more from a staff member.

The New testament teaches different things. The New Testament is what we're meant to follow. You should know this if you claim to be such an expert on the Bible.

EDIT: Also, I specifically said I don't hate gays. Nice job with the reading skills there. I also never mentioned the Bible in my post. You brought this all up out of the blue. Umadbro =3

It hardly seems like he is "Christian bashing".

Instead of replying in a negative way, it would have been more prevalent to respond with your third sentence only.

My parents believe in God, they are Christian, and support gay marriage, equal rights and the whole shebang. As someone that grew up Christian (though I am now Apatheistic) I was surrounded by a church, pastors/what have you who truly believed that homosexuality was completely ok.

I do have questions for you, I know you are not an EXPERT on the bible, because that's foolish, with so many copies and convolutions but here is my question. With your point about the New Testament, what's the point of all the rules of Deut. and Levit.? What are they there for? Why spend an insurmountable amount of time writing them, and publishing them in every issue of the bible if they do not matter?

That's actually a good question! I obviously don't have the answer to that because I'd have to be one of the original publishers to know why they did that, but if I had to guess, it'd be so that the Bible is complete with all the texts from it, so that we understand what came before, how people lived, and what lessons we can learn from the old testament, if any. Yes, in most cases, the New Testament teaches differently and teaches tolerance, but there are lessons in the old testament we can extrapolate that don't violate or contradict anything Jesus taught. For example, how we should resist temptation, as evident by how Eve did not resist it with Satan, and we could take the lesson from that area that temptation is the Devil's work and we shouldn't even go places to be tempted, just avoid it altogether.

I wouldn't say the Old Testament doesn't matter, it's simply a matter of, the New Testament is to be our life-guide, the Old Testament is there for us to learn from, but the New Testament and what Jesus taught is really the directly applicable things to our lives; I'm not a scholar and haven't studied the Bible formally at all, but these are just some things I thought up. It might be a case of, "God did things in these books, it was really awesome (literally, struck with awe at God doing something), so we figured it'd be pretty important to list that in the big book of God!".

@Swagger462 said:

The Bible is too ambiguous for this conversation to go anywhere. The only parts of the Bible that speak of homosexuality negatively/at all to my knowledge are in Genesis and Leviticus. On the other hand there is judge not, lest ye be judged and love thy neighbour. There are contradicting philosophies all through the Bible and so this can't actually go anywhere. As for my views I am actively for the rights of homosexuals and I'm not sure whether I believe in Christianity or Deism. Either way I don't believe my faith and my views on human rights conflict.

Romans and Corinthians speaks out against it too.

@TheCowman said:

Eh, my church has had a couple gay couples as members, so I've kinda been over the whole thing for awhile now. The two women there now are both members of the choir. What many people often forget is that while the bible may contain some of the teachings of God and Jesus; it was edited and compiled by people. And if there's one thing humans excel at it's screwing things up with their own opinions and prejudices.

I always figured since "love thy neighbor as yourself" was supposed to be the number one, uber-rule; that I'd stick with that. After all, the world THAT long ago was an almost alien place compared to today. The bible's rules against sleeping with animals and/or the same gender might have been put in there for no other reason than because these people NEEDED more babies. Survival for them on a day to day basis wasn't anywhere NEAR as certain as it is for us; and a couple that wasn't producing more humans to work the fields and such was dangerous dead weight.

First its love God, then its love your neighbor. You can tell when people over emphasize one over the other because it shows in their theology. Its interesting that you say that you've "gotten over it" but you still use the same justification. "The Bible's been altered", how do you determine what parts you follow?

One thing thats interesting is that the OT was about making yourself into a great nation and multiplying while the NT sat in anticipation for the last days, suggesting celibacy. But they both condemned homoeroticism. Its not just about making babies.

@soduh2 said:

"The Bible's been altered", how do you determine what parts you follow?

Its not just about making babies.

Which parts do I follow?

Eh, I don't have any hard and fast rules. Basically I just try to use logic and pick out the stuff that isn't contradicted elsewhere. Maybe that makes me not an actual Christian.... I really don't know. That's your call, I guess. I've always felt that religion is such a personal thing that trying to have a strict definition for it in general and separate denominations in particular is a useless exercise. But that's just me.

And good counterpoint on the baby thing. Like I said, it was just some theory that popped in my head once. Mainly it was to demonstrate the acres in difference between how we view the world and how people centuries ago did.

@Agent9149: I would have to politely disagree with you. Either the bible is the absolute Word of God or it isn't. It's either all true or all fiction. There can be no lee way (spelling???) with it. As far as the rest of your comment, I'm at a lost for words. To say that Jesus didn't follow word of his Father is unimaginable. He was the "perfect" son. He only criticized the Pharisees and the Saducees because they pretended to follow the laws. They only followed the laws for their own glory(look at me, I'm more holy than you), instead of for the glory of God the Father. That's why Christ chastised them so much.

Do you remember the parable of the rich young man? The whole camel in the eye of the needle one? Jesus felt pity for the rich man. While he did do all that commandments wanted, he just couldn't get rid of his possessions and follow Jesus. He wasn't condemned by Jesus for following the law.

@IfDCRuledTheWorld said: @Agent9149

@Agent9149: I would have to politely disagree with you. Either the bible is the absolute Word of God or it isn't. It's either all true or all fiction. There can be no lee way (spelling???) with it. As far as the rest of your comment, I'm at a lost for words. To say that Jesus didn't follow word of his Father is unimaginable. He was the "perfect" son. He only criticized the Pharisees and the Saducees because they pretended to follow the laws. They only followed the laws for their own glory(look at me, I'm more holy than you), instead of for the glory of God the Father. That's why Christ chastised them so much.

Do you remember the parable of the rich young man? The whole camel in the eye of the needle one? Jesus felt pity for the rich man. While he did do all that commandments wanted, he just couldn't get rid of his possessions and follow Jesus. He wasn't condemned by Jesus for following the law.

I agree with DCruledtheworld. The entire New Testament is meant for Christians not just the Gospel. Even still ,Jesus, himself, said in the Gospel at Matthew 5:17-19 that he didn't come to abolish the laws but to fulfill them. Jesus is personification of the Laws.

@inferiorego said:

@soduh2 said:

Its easy to just assume that most Christians are just homophobic but that is definitely not the case.

I agree with that, but the ones who are homophobic have the loudest voices.

I'd also stipulate that several groups and individuals who specifically have a distaste and dislike, almost hate, for Christianity, are also loudest amongst the population.

I'd say that the most extreme views (that are often wrong either way) of any debate are the loudest, most profoundly spoken ones. We should all try and listen to the quieter people now and then. Less stressful to do so, if nothing else.

And... I just have to ask, what does your definition of "homophobic" actually mean? Homophobic broken into it's constituents means afraid of any two things that are the same; and when you put it in the context of sexual orientation, it implies people are actually afraid of homosexuals. That seems unlikely... What do you personally mean when you say "homophobic"?