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#1 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

We touched on this in the "religion what do you think" thread, but lets get into the deeper more specific topic. Can a Christian support same sex marriage without compromising their beliefs? I believe that if it were possible, this debate wouldn't be happening right now in the United States (and other western countries).

A proviso: Saying "not everyone is a Christian" or "seperation of church and state", isn't an argument for Pro-gay Christianity.

I'm looking for harmony between the Christian faith and gay rights.

#2 Posted by thespideyguy (2642 posts) - - Show Bio

Ninety percent of Americans believe in god.

#3 Posted by kingsloth (249 posts) - - Show Bio

People just want to say well I hate gays and use their faith as a justifier and this isn't just christianity all abrahamic religions are anti-gay in their scriptures, but I think most christians today don't let christianiy control every aspect of their life. If they hate gays then it has to do with the person not the religion.

#4 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@thespideyguy said:

Ninety percent of Americans believe in god.

There's a difference between a theist and a Christian. Let's not get off topic though.

@kingsloth said:

People just want to say well I hate gays and use their faith as a justifier and this isn't just christianity all abrahamic religions are anti-gay in their scriptures, but I think most christians today don't let christianiy control every aspect of their life. If they hate gays then it has to do with the person not the religion.

Though there is a difference between actual hatred and adherance to scripture. True, a lot of Christians don't allow Christianity to control all aspects of their life, but if you call them out on that point they'll feel conviction (ie: they realize that they aren't as "Christian" as they should be).

#5 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (14594 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm a christian and I find no problem with gay people. It's just the way they are. Who the hell am I to judge them?

#6 Posted by God_Spawn (37710 posts) - - Show Bio

"It is Christian to commit oneself to life and the possibility of living of each individual, not to preach suffering or to sanctify masochism. Otherwise...death and the negation of life would as always have the last word." -E. Drewermann, translated by M. Beier A Violent God Image

I love the quote. I am a Christian and I am incredibly pro-choice. If 2 people want to get married, let them.

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#7 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

No.

You can't be Christian, as in specifically adherent to a specific faction (Catholic, Protestant, etc) and support gay marriage. You can't even be tolerant of homosexuality, period.

So --- since you are being specific about Christianity and not so much theism, then I do not see how someone can claim to be a Baptist/Methodist/Catholic and still be supportive of homosexuality which includes marriage, etc.

It's like cafeteria Catholicism. You take a little bit of this -- a little bit of that, but truly, you are not being a true Catholic. You can't pick and choose what you want -- God doesn't allow for that, neither does Jesus. Jesus may have preached tolerance, but more in that you should feel mercy and sympathy for those who are "afflicted" with a belief in their homosexuality. Lost sheep and all that.

If you truly believe that homosexuals have to the right to marriage, then make some noise in your church/parish and demand changes in their doctrines. If not, then you are just an arm-chair coach who thinks he's an MVP.

#8 Posted by Kovak (748 posts) - - Show Bio
WHOOO RELIGION AND SHIT!
#9 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

"It is Christian to commit oneself to life and the possibility of living of each individual, not to preach suffering or to sanctify masochism. Otherwise...death and the negation of life would as always have the last word." -E. Drewermann, translated by M. Beier A Violent God Image

I love the quote. I am a Christian and I am incredibly pro-choice. If 2 people want to get married, let them.

On what authority does he have the right to make that judgement? That quote can conflict with some of the teachings of Jesus according to the gospels.

#10 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: Agreed, especially this point:

If you truly believe that homosexuals have to the right to marriage, then make some noise in your church/parish and demand changes in their doctrines. If not, then you are just an arm-chair coach who thinks he's an MVP.

Most pro-gay Christians have no well-defined theology that justifies their position. Yet they have the nerve to say anti-gay Christians are "misrepresenting" their faith. Granted I do believe there is occasionally to much emphasis on the subject of SSM by anti-gay Christians, the burden of proof lies on the pro-gay side.

#11 Posted by Fuchsia_Nightingale (10180 posts) - - Show Bio

I am ^-^

#12 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2 said:

@lykopis: Agreed, especially this point:

If you truly believe that homosexuals have to the right to marriage, then make some noise in your church/parish and demand changes in their doctrines. If not, then you are just an arm-chair coach who thinks he's an MVP.

Most pro-gay Christians have no well-defined theology that justifies their position. Yet they have the nerve to say anti-gay Christians are "misrepresenting" their faith. Granted I do believe there is occasionally to much emphasis on the subject of SSM by anti-gay Christians, the burden of proof lies on the pro-gay side.

Absolutely. And really, it wouldn't be so hard. I suspect the majority would support a change -- it just needs to be addressed en masse so people don't feel intimidated.

@Fuchsia_Nightingale said:

I am ^-^

You are my kitty-kat --- .... **pounces** he he he

#13 Edited by minigunman123 (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

If you're a Christian, believe in Jesus Christ as your savior and believe his teachings, and believe he is the son of God (this is the true definition of a CHRISTian), then no, you can't support gay marriage without compromising your beliefs. That doesn't mean Christians are meant to hate gays, or that they do hate gays, though. That just means we don't approve of the lifestyle. Doesn't mean we have to shout "you're gay! God hates you!", because he doesn't. People who do are just as bad as people who call soldiers baby-killers because they haven't a good enough understanding or enough brain cells to think about things critically.

Personally, I'm always a bit annoyed to see Christians who support gay marriage; they're two conflicting beliefs. So, which is it? Do you believe in God, or believe in Man? You can't have both. If a Christian supports gay marriage, I understand they're trying to be nice to people, and that's wonderful in one way, but it makes me greatly question their actual faith in being a Christian. It's like condoning murder (no, homosexuals are not murderers, but all sin is equal to God, meaning I'm just as bad as a murderer who's just as bad as a homosexual who's just as bad as my Mother). It goes against everything you say you believe in to condone such things. Why believe in two things that go completely against each other?

That said, I also do not hold non-Christians quite accountable for the same things. I don't support gay marriage, but if you're non-Christian and homosexual, I might not approve of it, but I won't stand in your way. If I argued against it, you'd just think I was a jerk, and maybe you're an awesome person. It's when a person's both Christian and homosexual that really bothers me, because it's like they're running away from what they think they want to believe; it makes me want to ask them, "OK, so what do you really believe in?"

#14 Posted by Kal'smahboi (3509 posts) - - Show Bio

Nothing about the core beliefs in Christianity says that you have to be "anti-gay." It is the moral stance that the church has taken, but the core beliefs say nothing of it.

#15 Posted by inferiorego (23163 posts) - - Show Bio

@minigunman123 said:

If you're a Christian, believe in Jesus Christ as your savior and believe his teachings, and believe he is the son of God (this is the true definition of a CHRISTian), then no, you can't support gay marriage without compromising your beliefs. That doesn't mean Christians are meant to hate gays, or that they do hate gays, though. That just means we don't approve of the lifestyle. Doesn't mean we have to shout "you're gay! God hates you!", because he doesn't. People who do are just as bad as people who call soldiers baby-killers because they haven't a good enough understanding or enough brain cells to think about things critically.

Personally, I'm always a bit annoyed to see Christians who support gay marriage; they're two conflicting beliefs. So, which is it? Do you believe in God, or believe in Man? You can't have both. If a Christian supports gay marriage, I understand they're trying to be nice to people, and that's wonderful in one way, but it makes me greatly question their actual faith in being a Christian. It's like condoning murder (no, homosexuals are not murderers, but all sin is equal to God, meaning I'm just as bad as a murderer who's just as bad as a homosexual who's just as bad as my Mother). It goes against everything you say you believe in to condone such things. Why believe in two things that go completely against each other?

That said, I also do not hold non-Christians quite accountable for the same things. I don't support gay marriage, but if you're non-Christian and homosexual, I might not approve of it, but I won't stand in your way. If I argued against it, you'd just think I was a jerk, and maybe you're an awesome person. It's when a person's both Christian and homosexual that really bothers me, because it's like they're running away from what they think they want to believe; it makes me want to ask them, "OK, so what do you really believe in?"

There's no such thing as a true Christian who follows the Bible. If you are, then you do these things as well has hating homosexuals:

Support slavery!

Don't eat shellfish!

Sacrifice a goat after your wife's menstruation period!

No tattoos!

Don't wear clothes of multiple fabrics!

Marry your brother's wife, if your brother dies!

Don't mix crops while planting!

Beat your wife!

For more insanity, please read Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

Staff
#16 Edited by minigunman123 (3116 posts) - - Show Bio

@inferiorego said:

@minigunman123 said:

If you're a Christian, believe in Jesus Christ as your savior and believe his teachings, and believe he is the son of God (this is the true definition of a CHRISTian), then no, you can't support gay marriage without compromising your beliefs. That doesn't mean Christians are meant to hate gays, or that they do hate gays, though. That just means we don't approve of the lifestyle. Doesn't mean we have to shout "you're gay! God hates you!", because he doesn't. People who do are just as bad as people who call soldiers baby-killers because they haven't a good enough understanding or enough brain cells to think about things critically.

Personally, I'm always a bit annoyed to see Christians who support gay marriage; they're two conflicting beliefs. So, which is it? Do you believe in God, or believe in Man? You can't have both. If a Christian supports gay marriage, I understand they're trying to be nice to people, and that's wonderful in one way, but it makes me greatly question their actual faith in being a Christian. It's like condoning murder (no, homosexuals are not murderers, but all sin is equal to God, meaning I'm just as bad as a murderer who's just as bad as a homosexual who's just as bad as my Mother). It goes against everything you say you believe in to condone such things. Why believe in two things that go completely against each other?

That said, I also do not hold non-Christians quite accountable for the same things. I don't support gay marriage, but if you're non-Christian and homosexual, I might not approve of it, but I won't stand in your way. If I argued against it, you'd just think I was a jerk, and maybe you're an awesome person. It's when a person's both Christian and homosexual that really bothers me, because it's like they're running away from what they think they want to believe; it makes me want to ask them, "OK, so what do you really believe in?"

There's no such thing as a true Christian who follows the Bible. If you are, then you do these things as well has hating homosexuals:

Support slavery!

Don't eat shellfish!

Sacrifice a goat after your wife's menstruation period!

No tattoos!

Don't wear clothes of multiple fabrics!

Marry your brother's wife, if your brother dies!

Don't mix crops while planting!

Beat your wife!

For more insanity, please read Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

And so the Christian bashing begins! Really, would've expected more from a staff member.

The New testament teaches different things. The New Testament is what we're meant to follow. You should know this if you claim to be such an expert on the Bible.

EDIT: Also, I specifically said I don't hate gays. Nice job with the reading skills there. I also never mentioned the Bible in my post. You brought this all up out of the blue. Umadbro =3

#17 Posted by The Devil Tiger (1263 posts) - - Show Bio

Is ther not a sentence in the bible that say that the judgement/Vengeance/Justice is owned only by god ?

#18 Posted by SC (12963 posts) - - Show Bio

To me, humans are humans are humans. To varying degrees the more we are collectively aware of how physically limited we are the more we value and appreciate the idea of having other types of control over our lives to varying degrees. We are also adapted to assume. Constantly. We aren't born knowing what gravity is exactly, but it doesn't take very long for us to get the feeling that we won't suddenly be violently discharged into the air for some random constant reason. The mechanics to do with varying belief in a higher power are already in there within us as well. So to a typically lesser extent trying to get some people to contemplate the idea there is no higher power could be like trying to get some people to contemplate the idea that there is no gravity. You also don't have to know how to effectively and efficiently explain gravity and its history as far as science and breakthroughs and developments as a theory to believe in it. It can be explained and understood as a very basic idea. Much like religious beliefs can also apply in both areas. So taking a particular religious perspective like say Christianity, and taking a sample range of Christians, you will have naturally varying perspectives and occurring assumptions leading to varying value systems. Some Christians beliefs may conform to the Bible for example? Other Christians religious beliefs may have been fostered independently (by virtue of being raised in a Christian family and taking lessons from elders etc) but recognize the Bible as an important historic guide/text to their religion and even one that is potentially just a by product of its age. Some Christians may sincerely view the Bible as just an attempt by humans at the time of its writing to understand god and that superior (and more than likely more subjective ways) of understanding god now exist.  
 
Basically its about how a person prioritizes the various variables that contribute and make up a persons understanding and beliefs. Certain strict and clear variables like say the Bible might mean for some their religious views are incompatible with a pro homosexuality stance, but for others other factors may be more relevant and or important with their reasoning or justification (dismissal) being sincere (as well as running the gambit of being degrees of subjective or objective)          

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#19 Posted by inferiorego (23163 posts) - - Show Bio

@minigunman123 said:

@inferiorego said:

@minigunman123 said:

If you're a Christian, believe in Jesus Christ as your savior and believe his teachings, and believe he is the son of God (this is the true definition of a CHRISTian), then no, you can't support gay marriage without compromising your beliefs. That doesn't mean Christians are meant to hate gays, or that they do hate gays, though. That just means we don't approve of the lifestyle. Doesn't mean we have to shout "you're gay! God hates you!", because he doesn't. People who do are just as bad as people who call soldiers baby-killers because they haven't a good enough understanding or enough brain cells to think about things critically.

Personally, I'm always a bit annoyed to see Christians who support gay marriage; they're two conflicting beliefs. So, which is it? Do you believe in God, or believe in Man? You can't have both. If a Christian supports gay marriage, I understand they're trying to be nice to people, and that's wonderful in one way, but it makes me greatly question their actual faith in being a Christian. It's like condoning murder (no, homosexuals are not murderers, but all sin is equal to God, meaning I'm just as bad as a murderer who's just as bad as a homosexual who's just as bad as my Mother). It goes against everything you say you believe in to condone such things. Why believe in two things that go completely against each other?

That said, I also do not hold non-Christians quite accountable for the same things. I don't support gay marriage, but if you're non-Christian and homosexual, I might not approve of it, but I won't stand in your way. If I argued against it, you'd just think I was a jerk, and maybe you're an awesome person. It's when a person's both Christian and homosexual that really bothers me, because it's like they're running away from what they think they want to believe; it makes me want to ask them, "OK, so what do you really believe in?"

There's no such thing as a true Christian who follows the Bible. If you are, then you do these things as well has hating homosexuals:

Support slavery!

Don't eat shellfish!

Sacrifice a goat after your wife's menstruation period!

No tattoos!

Don't wear clothes of multiple fabrics!

Marry your brother's wife, if your brother dies!

Don't mix crops while planting!

Beat your wife!

For more insanity, please read Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

And so the Christian bashing begins! Really, would've expected more from a staff member.

The New testament teaches different things. The New Testament is what we're meant to follow. You should know this if you claim to be such an expert on the Bible.

EDIT: Also, I specifically said I don't hate gays. Nice job with the reading skills there. I also never mentioned the Bible in my post. You brought this all up out of the blue. Umadbro =3

This isn't bashing. If it was bashing, I wouldn't post it here.

Yes, the New Testament is a completely different book, but it's still part of the Bible, correct?

Yes, you didn't say "hating gays," that's just me jumping to insane conclusions. No sarcasm there, my bad.

The second you mention the teachings of Jesus Christ, you are talking about the Bible, where his teachings originate from.

No, I'm not mad.

Staff
#20 Posted by SC (12963 posts) - - Show Bio
@inferiorego said:

Support slavery!

Don't eat shellfish!

Sacrifice a goat after your wife's menstruation period!

Don't like George Carlin more than Dane Cook!  

Don't wear clothes!

Sorry, but that fourth one takes things too far my friend. I can agree to the last one though. 
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#21 Posted by inferiorego (23163 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

@inferiorego said:

Support slavery!

Don't eat shellfish!

Sacrifice a goat after your wife's menstruation period!

Don't like George Carlin more than Dane Cook!

Don't wear clothes!

Sorry, but that fourth one takes things too far my friend. I can agree to the last one though.

I see what you did there....

Staff
#22 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@inferiorego:

Support slavery!

-Condone slavery as a cultural reality, but there are no commandments to support or own slaves. Overarching Christian teachings make slavery disadvantageous.

Don't eat shellfish!

-Negated by the NT. Jesus said, its not what comes in to the mouth that defiles a man but what comes out. The the acts vision from peter, don't call unclean what I have made clean.

Sacrifice a goat after your wife's menstruation period!

-Cultural law, negated by Jesus being the ultimate sacrifice

No tattoos!

-Cultural law, made to distinguish the Hewbrews from their neighbors

Don't wear clothes of multiple fabrics!

-Same as above

Marry your brother's wife, if your brother dies!

-Cultural law, doesn't apply in the NT context where be fruitful and multiply has been replaced with "woe to those who are with child" in the last days.

Don't mix crops while planting!

-Cultural law, same as the clothes and tatoos

Beat your wife!

-Doesn't apply to the NT, not sure if that's even accurate for the OT.

For more insanity, please read Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

-Case and point

#23 Posted by inferiorego (23163 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2: poop...

What am I going to do with all these extra goats then?

Staff
#24 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis:

Absolutely. And really, it wouldn't be so hard. I suspect the majority would support a change -- it just needs to be addressed en masse so people don't feel intimidated.

Its easy to just assume that most Christians are just homophobic but that is definitely not the case. I think it has been addressed en masse, just not articulated properly.

The main question is whether or a decent argument exists.

#25 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@inferiorego said:

@soduh2: poop...

What am I going to do with all these extra goats then?

God made them clean, have some gyros. LOL

#26 Posted by inferiorego (23163 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2 said:

Its easy to just assume that most Christians are just homophobic but that is definitely not the case.

I agree with that, but the ones who are homophobic have the loudest voices.

Staff
#27 Posted by ComixZone (11 posts) - - Show Bio

The church is not meant to be exclusive - it's supposed to be inclusive - of all.

#28 Posted by Chaos Burn (1782 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

No.

You can't be Christian, as in specifically adherent to a specific faction (Catholic, Protestant, etc) and support gay marriage. You can't even be tolerant of homosexuality, period.

So --- since you are being specific about Christianity and not so much theism, then I do not see how someone can claim to be a Baptist/Methodist/Catholic and still be supportive of homosexuality which includes marriage, etc.

It's like cafeteria Catholicism. You take a little bit of this -- a little bit of that, but truly, you are not being a true Catholic. You can't pick and choose what you want -- God doesn't allow for that, neither does Jesus. Jesus may have preached tolerance, but more in that you should feel mercy and sympathy for those who are "afflicted" with a belief in their homosexuality. Lost sheep and all that.

If you truly believe that homosexuals have to the right to marriage, then make some noise in your church/parish and demand changes in their doctrines. If not, then you are just an arm-chair coach who thinks he's an MVP.

smartest thing i've seen for a while

#29 Posted by Deranged Midget (17599 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kovak: If you have something to contribute, please do so. Otherwise, don't post pictures unrelated to the topic at hand.

Moderator
#30 Posted by Kovak (748 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget: Sorry, I figured this thread was going to get pretty tense and some sh!t was probably going to start. Was just trying to keep the mood light.

#31 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@ComixZone said:

The church is not meant to be exclusive - it's supposed to be inclusive - of all.

Exactly, but there are actions that God doesn't condone. Any one is invited but you have to deny yourself when accepting Jesus as your Lord and savior.

#32 Posted by pooty (11027 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2:

Yet they have the nerve to say anti-gay Christians are "misrepresenting" their faith

They are misrepresenting the faith. The Bible is clear on homosexuality

@DarkKnightDetective said:

I'm a christian and I find no problem with gay people. It's just the way they are. Who the hell am I to judge them?

The Bible doesn't say judge them but it CLEARLY says that it is wrong and we should avoid it. God made the judgement. Christians just adhere to it.

@lykopis: So --- since you are being specific about Christianity and not so much theism, then I do not see how someone can claim to be a Baptist/Methodist/Catholic and still be supportive of homosexuality which includes marriage, etc.

You can't pick and choose what you want -- God doesn't allow for that, neither does Jesus. Jesus may have preached tolerance, but more in that you should feel mercy and sympathy for those who are "afflicted" with a belief in their homosexuality. Lost sheep and all that.

Perfectly said

@minigunman123: If you're a Christian, believe in Jesus Christ as your savior and believe his teachings, and believe he is the son of God (this is the true definition of a CHRISTian), then no, you can't support gay marriage without compromising your beliefs. That doesn't mean Christians are meant to hate gays, or that they do hate gays, though. That just means we don't approve of the lifestyle

Perfectly said

@Kal'smahboi said:

Nothing about the core beliefs in Christianity says that you have to be "anti-gay." It is the moral stance that the church has taken, but the core beliefs say nothing of it.

This is untrue. It is not something the church invented. From the old testament to the new testament, the bible itself speaks against homosexuality.

@inferiorego said:

@minigunman123 said:

If you're a Christian, believe in Jesus Christ as your savior and believe his teachings, and believe he is the son of God (this is the true definition of a CHRISTian), then no, you can't support gay marriage without compromising your beliefs. That doesn't mean Christians are meant to hate gays, or that they do hate gays, though. That just means we don't approve of the lifestyle. Doesn't mean we have to shout "you're gay! God hates you!", because he doesn't. People who do are just as bad as people who call soldiers baby-killers because they haven't a good enough understanding or enough brain cells to think about things critically.

Personally, I'm always a bit annoyed to see Christians who support gay marriage; they're two conflicting beliefs. So, which is it? Do you believe in God, or believe in Man? You can't have both. If a Christian supports gay marriage, I understand they're trying to be nice to people, and that's wonderful in one way, but it makes me greatly question their actual faith in being a Christian. It's like condoning murder (no, homosexuals are not murderers, but all sin is equal to God, meaning I'm just as bad as a murderer who's just as bad as a homosexual who's just as bad as my Mother). It goes against everything you say you believe in to condone such things. Why believe in two things that go completely against each other?

That said, I also do not hold non-Christians quite accountable for the same things. I don't support gay marriage, but if you're non-Christian and homosexual, I might not approve of it, but I won't stand in your way. If I argued against it, you'd just think I was a jerk, and maybe you're an awesome person. It's when a person's both Christian and homosexual that really bothers me, because it's like they're running away from what they think they want to believe; it makes me want to ask them, "OK, so what do you really believe in?"

There's no such thing as a true Christian who follows the Bible. If you are, then you do these things as well has hating homosexuals:

Support slavery!

Don't eat shellfish!

Sacrifice a goat after your wife's menstruation period!

No tattoos!

Don't wear clothes of multiple fabrics!

Marry your brother's wife, if your brother dies!

Don't mix crops while planting!

Beat your wife!

For more insanity, please read Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

This statement is 135% false and misleading. Not one Christian is commanded to do these things

Yes, the New Testament is a completely different book, but it's still part of the Bible, correct?

The New Testament is from the Bible. But you are quoting the old testament. Christians don't follow the Old Testament.

@minigunman123: The New testament teaches different things. The New Testament is what we're meant to follow. You should know this if you claim to be such an expert on the Bible.

EXACTLY

@The Devil Tiger: Is ther not a sentence in the bible that say that the judgement/Vengeance/Justice is owned only by god

Yes there is. It tells us not to judge people but it also tells us that certain things are wrong and to avoid those things.

Online
#33 Posted by Chaos Burn (1782 posts) - - Show Bio

Religion will be moulded to survive.

few hundred years ago, you could be burnt as a witch, nowadays we have gay priests, social development changes the religion. Not the other way round.

thousands of years ago the Egyptians thought their Gods were the real deal. Norse did too, and Roman and Pagans.

I am confident in another few hundred years, mankind will look back at our present religions and say "how barbaric!"

#34 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2:

My point is groups of people of varying denominations who support gay marriage should make a concentrated, organised effort to make changes. Approach their priest/ministers, have their concerns brought forward - a real movement. Create noise that is heard -- a dedicated message not just a low-level but well distributed grumble.

I get that not everyone has that thing inside them to change the world, but I do get frustrated when people identify themselves as Christian and then follow through with their sincere belief they support gay marriage. I believe them, but something has to give. Somewhere.

#35 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: Noise has been made. There are denominations that have been split because of this issue. The Methodist church and the anglican church comes to mind. The issue is they still don't have a well defined theology beyond "we all agree, lets do things our own way".

@Chaos Burn: Christianity is 2000 years old (more or less), people had public access to scriptures around the last 500 years. The modern evangelical fundamentalst (conservative Bible focused) movement is rooted in the early 20th century. Things won't be changing for a while.

#36 Posted by Kal'smahboi (3509 posts) - - Show Bio
@pooty said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

Nothing about the core beliefs in Christianity says that you have to be "anti-gay." It is the moral stance that the church has taken, but the core beliefs say nothing of it.

This is untrue. It is not something the church invented. From the old testament to the new testament, the bible itself speaks against homosexuality.

The Bible says that the act of homosexual sex is immoral. I said nothing about the Bible. I said the core beliefs of what it means to be a Christian: specifically, belief that Jesus is the savior.
 
Here's a link to a copy of the Roman Catholic "Apostle's Creed," which makes no mention of sexuality at all. It's a summary of the core beliefs of the religion, the points in which can mostly be agreed upon by most Catholic faiths.
#37 Posted by pooty (11027 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kal'smahboi: I thought when you said "it is the moral stance that the church has taken" that you meant it was something the church made up and was not supported by the Bible. I see what you are saying now.

Online
#38 Posted by Chaos Burn (1782 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2 said:

@Chaos Burn: Christianity is 2000 years old (more or less), people had public access to scriptures around the last 500 years. The modern evangelical fundamentalst (conservative Bible focused) movement is rooted in the early 20th century. Things won't be changing for a while.

my point is they will, and they have. This is fact, whilst believers still read the same book and pray to the same God, their religion will change with society. e.g. gay bishops and priests, attitudes towards sex before marriage, attitudes toward co-habitation, less witch burning...

maybe a more powerful example would be the fact that protestant Christianity was created by Henry VIII so he could get a divorce. In the future, Christianity may still be practised, but it may develop into something unrecognisable at present.

Oh and did I hear that you can still have sex with a horse in a number of US states but you can't marry a man?! wtf

#39 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2 said:

@lykopis: Noise has been made. There are denominations that have been split because of this issue. The Methodist church and the anglican church comes to mind. The issue is they still don't have a well defined theology beyond "we all agree, lets do things our own way".

The Anglican Church has actively separated those parishes from their organisations who refuse to not acknowledge same-sex couples and also perform marriages. And they did so because it is strictly forbidden according to the Anglican faith. Not really a split and further to that -- some priests have been ex-communicated. If the majority of Christians are not against homosexual marriage, then why does this happen? Why is it allowed? Why is there not an outcry from these worshippers who attend church, teach their children acceptance and love for everyone and yet allow these divisions to stand? the hypocrisy is choking.

So -- to be a Christian, is to be against gay marriage, to view homosexuality as an abnormality and further to that -- a temptation to which someone should work against. There is no middle ground here unless a new text is created, with new interpretations to be followed which accepts and supports homosexuality and gay marriage. If there is a flat out refusal from your parish/church/group to agree to its congregations opinion, then why isn't there a mass exodus from said religion?

There isn't --- people still go to church, celebrate Easter, Christmas and soothe their consciences by telling people in conversation or on the street when asked by polltakers that they support gay marriage. To me, they are holding back change and acceptance and are a huge problem.

No -- there is no way someone can take the New Testament (or the Book of Mormon) and claim it doesn't instruct and expect its believers to not accept homosexuality other than an abomination, let alone marriage.

As for pointing out certain passages as being relevant to the times (the wife beating, etc) then why can't it be interpreted in a more modern sense? This is what I think should be happening and encouraged by Christians.

#40 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Chaos Burn said:

@soduh2 said:

@Chaos Burn: Christianity is 2000 years old (more or less), people had public access to scriptures around the last 500 years. The modern evangelical fundamentalst (conservative Bible focused) movement is rooted in the early 20th century. Things won't be changing for a while.

my point is they will, and they have. This is fact, whilst believers still read the same book and pray to the same God, their religion will change with society. e.g. gay bishops and priests, attitudes towards sex before marriage, attitudes toward co-habitation, less witch burning...

maybe a more powerful example would be the fact that protestant Christianity was created by Henry VIII so he could get a divorce. In the future, Christianity may still be practised, but it may develop into something unrecognisable at present.

Oh and did I hear that you can still have sex with a horse in a number of US states but you can't marry a man?! wtf

It wasn't the protestant church, it was the Anglican church. And its some what of a criticized point to this day. This issue is where does the authority of faith lie. With the protestant reformation, culminating into the 20th century authority shifted from church officials (in conjunction with scripture) to the Bible at the highest point on the pyramid. The anglican church is not the best example of evolving Christianity, considering the divisions that existed both then and now, its an example of a king corrupting his faith because his wife couldn't give him a son (which really was his own genetic's fault).

#41 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kal'smahboi said:

@pooty said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

Nothing about the core beliefs in Christianity says that you have to be "anti-gay." It is the moral stance that the church has taken, but the core beliefs say nothing of it.

This is untrue. It is not something the church invented. From the old testament to the new testament, the bible itself speaks against homosexuality.

The Bible says that the act of homosexual sex is immoral. I said nothing about the Bible. I said the core beliefs of what it means to be a Christian: specifically, belief that Jesus is the savior.

Here's a link to a copy of the Roman Catholic "Apostle's Creed," which makes no mention of sexuality at all. It's a summary of the core beliefs of the religion, the points in which can mostly be agreed upon by most Catholic faiths.

In that case --- same sex couples should be allowed to be married -- to be baptised and to have their sins forgiven.

#42 Edited by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

The Anglican Church has actively separated those parishes from their organisations who refuse to not acknowledge and perform marriages. And they did so because it is strictly forbidden according to the Anglican faith. Not really a split and further to that -- some priests have been ex-communicated. If the majority of Christians are not against homosexual marriage, then why does this happen? Why is it allowed? Why is there not an outcry from these worshippers who attend church, teach their children acceptance and love for everyone and yet allow these divisions to stand? the hypocrisy is choking.

-That's still division, they are estabishing there own churches which support there own beliefs. I never said the majority of Christians supported SSM, but that noise has been made

So -- to be a Christian, is to be against gay marriage, to view homosexuality as an abnormality and further to that -- a temptation to which someone should work against. There is no middle ground here unless a new text is created, with new interpretations to be followed which accepts and supports homosexuality and gay marriage. If there is a flat out refusal from your parish/church/group to agree to its congregations opinion, then why isn't there a mass exodus from said religion?

-New interpretations have been made as well, they exist within these broken off churches. The issue is they don't quite work because the majority of Christians don't by them. My proviso eliminated most of the arguments used on the subject by pro-gay christians.

There isn't --- people still go to church, celebrate Easter, Christmas and soothe their consciences by telling people in conversation or on the street when asked by polltakers that they support gay marriage. To me, they are holding back change and acceptance and are a huge problem.

-They're being honest, they've established their own churches, and they'll use any argument you can think of. However, most of them are extremely weak.,

No -- there is no way someone can take the New Testament (or the Book of Mormon) and claim it doesn't instruct and expect its believers to not accept homosexuality other than an abomination, let alone marriage.

-agreed. But can you be a Christian without it? Part of there argument is deconstructing their faith or participating in "cafeteria Christianity".

As for pointing out certain passages as being relevant to the times (the wife beating, etc) then why can't it be interpreted in a more modern sense? This is what I think should be happening and encouraged by Christians.

The context that needs to be considered is, as I discussed with you via PM, whether a point is a suggestion or a commandment. Not to mention looking at the OT in the context of the NT. Many NT ethics are counter-points to OT ethics, SSM/homosexuality does not have a counter-point.

#43 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

@pooty said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

Nothing about the core beliefs in Christianity says that you have to be "anti-gay." It is the moral stance that the church has taken, but the core beliefs say nothing of it.

This is untrue. It is not something the church invented. From the old testament to the new testament, the bible itself speaks against homosexuality.

The Bible says that the act of homosexual sex is immoral. I said nothing about the Bible. I said the core beliefs of what it means to be a Christian: specifically, belief that Jesus is the savior.

Here's a link to a copy of the Roman Catholic "Apostle's Creed," which makes no mention of sexuality at all. It's a summary of the core beliefs of the religion, the points in which can mostly be agreed upon by most Catholic faiths.

In that case --- same sex couples should be allowed to be married -- to be baptised and to have their sins forgiven.

Your two points contradict each other. How can they be married AND have their sins forgiven if homoerotic actions are sinful? Not to mention the Apostles Creed comes after the NT documents were written.

#44 Edited by Chaos Burn (1782 posts) - - Show Bio

@soduh2 said:

@Chaos Burn said:

@soduh2 said:

@Chaos Burn: Christianity is 2000 years old (more or less), people had public access to scriptures around the last 500 years. The modern evangelical fundamentalst (conservative Bible focused) movement is rooted in the early 20th century. Things won't be changing for a while.

my point is they will, and they have. This is fact, whilst believers still read the same book and pray to the same God, their religion will change with society. e.g. gay bishops and priests, attitudes towards sex before marriage, attitudes toward co-habitation, less witch burning...

maybe a more powerful example would be the fact that protestant Christianity was created by Henry VIII so he could get a divorce. In the future, Christianity may still be practised, but it may develop into something unrecognisable at present.

Oh and did I hear that you can still have sex with a horse in a number of US states but you can't marry a man?! wtf

It wasn't the protestant church, it was the Anglican church. And its some what of a criticized point to this day. This issue is where does the authority of faith lie. With the protestant reformation, culminating into the 20th century authority shifted from church officials (in conjunction with scripture) to the Bible at the highest point on the pyramid. The anglican church is not the best example of evolving Christianity, considering the divisions that existed both then and now, its an example of a king corrupting his faith because his wife couldn't give him a son (which really was his own genetic's fault).

I admit I was wrong with which exact Christianity they changed, but my examples all illustrate the development of religion through society, that example being influenced by the highest power at the time (King) like many changes are. I wouldn't say 'evolving Christianity', not because of the oxymoron, but because it is clear that some of the changes aren't for the better.

I think you agree with me though, that religion does change, just as societies do. That is why in socially stagnant countries like some in the middle east, religion is a huge ball and chain on civil rights, and whilst the more developed countries have turbulent history of different religions being chopped and changed until it fits in with what the leader (e.g. Henry VIII, popes, governments) thinks, and nowadays they lean towards what the public want, to increase their own popularity.

Back to the debate in hand, my final answer would be this chronological format: (past) gays are unacceptable > gays are okay > maybe gays should get married > gays can get married (future/near future)

editied spelling errors

#45 Edited by Quandary (19 posts) - - Show Bio

Well Christians are supposed to strive to be without sin and homosexuality is mentioned as a sin. However, the problem with the US (and it's mostly the US, not Christians specifically) is that they think they should be making the rules for other people but in the same Bible they use to decide that homosexuality is a sin, it also tells them not to be one with the world but keep to their own values. Thanks to all that nonsense that is the Dark Ages, the modern day Christians in the U.S. think that they should be making the rules for all of society as they were at one point the majority when really they are meant to be the example everyone else looks at and wants to be like, not the ones forcing laws onto us and telling us how to act. Christianity is founded on the idea of being the people getting hit and turning the other cheek but in modern days they are getting hit and in turn beating their attacker to the ground and spitting on them in return.
 
Christians are supposed to be good people, that's where the religion fell apart. Most Christians don't actually practice any of the core principles of the religion at all and just get stuck on the rules. I can't stand people who hate homosexuality but the fact is they aren't Christians by definition if they are outwardly attacking any group of people and they are just hiding behind something they think justifies their hatred but that in reality they don't understand.

#46 Posted by Kal'smahboi (3509 posts) - - Show Bio
@lykopis said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

@pooty said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

Nothing about the core beliefs in Christianity says that you have to be "anti-gay." It is the moral stance that the church has taken, but the core beliefs say nothing of it.

This is untrue. It is not something the church invented. From the old testament to the new testament, the bible itself speaks against homosexuality.

The Bible says that the act of homosexual sex is immoral. I said nothing about the Bible. I said the core beliefs of what it means to be a Christian: specifically, belief that Jesus is the savior.

Here's a link to a copy of the Roman Catholic "Apostle's Creed," which makes no mention of sexuality at all. It's a summary of the core beliefs of the religion, the points in which can mostly be agreed upon by most Catholic faiths.

In that case --- same sex couples should be allowed to be married -- to be baptised and to have their sins forgiven.

First of all, homosexuals can be Baptized and have their sins forgiven in the Catholic church. Second, the power to marry a couple in the name of God is one held by the Christian institutions, so they can choose who they allow to do so. It has nothing to do with the core tenets of Christianity, which is independent of whether you attend church or not.
#47 Posted by Kal'smahboi (3509 posts) - - Show Bio
@soduh2 said:

@lykopis said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

@pooty said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

Nothing about the core beliefs in Christianity says that you have to be "anti-gay." It is the moral stance that the church has taken, but the core beliefs say nothing of it.

This is untrue. It is not something the church invented. From the old testament to the new testament, the bible itself speaks against homosexuality.

The Bible says that the act of homosexual sex is immoral. I said nothing about the Bible. I said the core beliefs of what it means to be a Christian: specifically, belief that Jesus is the savior.

Here's a link to a copy of the Roman Catholic "Apostle's Creed," which makes no mention of sexuality at all. It's a summary of the core beliefs of the religion, the points in which can mostly be agreed upon by most Catholic faiths.

In that case --- same sex couples should be allowed to be married -- to be baptised and to have their sins forgiven.

Your two points contradict each other. How can they be married AND have their sins forgiven if homoerotic actions are sinful? Not to mention the Apostles Creed comes after the NT documents were written.

They don't contradict each other. I said that the core beliefs of Christianity speak nothing of sexuality and then I referenced a document that expresses the core beliefs of Christianity based on the Roman Catholic church, in order to demonstrate the fact.
#48 Posted by soduh2 (865 posts) - - Show Bio

@Chaos Burn: It didn't really change, so much as it splintered and not always for religious reasons. These changes don't always effect the faith as a whole. Not to mention Christianity doesn't always work in a forward or backward type of way (new ideas changing the old). Augustine's teachings shaped much of the middle ages, but they conflicted with scripture that came before him. The idea that Catholic Priests cannot get married, for example, has nothing to do with scripture. So that idea being challenged today isn't by definition "progressive" thought but a return to older scripture authority.

#49 Posted by Quandary (19 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kal'smahboi said:

@soduh2 said:

@lykopis said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

@pooty said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

Nothing about the core beliefs in Christianity says that you have to be "anti-gay." It is the moral stance that the church has taken, but the core beliefs say nothing of it.

This is untrue. It is not something the church invented. From the old testament to the new testament, the bible itself speaks against homosexuality.

The Bible says that the act of homosexual sex is immoral. I said nothing about the Bible. I said the core beliefs of what it means to be a Christian: specifically, belief that Jesus is the savior.

Here's a link to a copy of the Roman Catholic "Apostle's Creed," which makes no mention of sexuality at all. It's a summary of the core beliefs of the religion, the points in which can mostly be agreed upon by most Catholic faiths.

In that case --- same sex couples should be allowed to be married -- to be baptised and to have their sins forgiven.

Your two points contradict each other. How can they be married AND have their sins forgiven if homoerotic actions are sinful? Not to mention the Apostles Creed comes after the NT documents were written.

They don't contradict each other. I said that the core beliefs of Christianity speak nothing of sexuality and then I referenced a document that expresses the core beliefs of Christianity based on the Roman Catholic church, in order to demonstrate the fact.
  • core beliefs of Christianity
  • based on the Roman Catholic Church

that is a contradiction, it's the fact that the Roman Catholic has always been known for making stuff up that has nothing to do with the core beliefs of Christianity that caused hundreds of denominations to divide off of it...Roman Catholics are more about tradition than any sort of moral code these days

#50 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@Kal'smahboi said:

@lykopis said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

@pooty said:

@Kal'smahboi said:

Nothing about the core beliefs in Christianity says that you have to be "anti-gay." It is the moral stance that the church has taken, but the core beliefs say nothing of it.

This is untrue. It is not something the church invented. From the old testament to the new testament, the bible itself speaks against homosexuality.

The Bible says that the act of homosexual sex is immoral. I said nothing about the Bible. I said the core beliefs of what it means to be a Christian: specifically, belief that Jesus is the savior.

Here's a link to a copy of the Roman Catholic "Apostle's Creed," which makes no mention of sexuality at all. It's a summary of the core beliefs of the religion, the points in which can mostly be agreed upon by most Catholic faiths.

In that case --- same sex couples should be allowed to be married -- to be baptised and to have their sins forgiven.

First of all, homosexuals can be Baptized and have their sins forgiven in the Catholic church. Second, the power to marry a couple in the name of God is one held by the Christian institutions, so they can choose who they allow to do so. It has nothing to do with the core tenets of Christianity, which is independent of whether you attend church or not.

Oh yes -- of course they are allowed to be baptised, but they would have to acknowledge their being homosexually inclined is a sin, and would be expected to not seek homosexual relationships.

And -- according to Catholic beliefs -- to be married is to procreate. To be married is to have children. Many, many children which is why condoms is forbidden as it subverts God's will. In fact, annulment is granted to couples should one of them be unable to have children so how would that be applied in the case of same-sex marriage? The Catholic Church is also against in vitro-fertilisation.

The Apostle's Creed mentions sins being forgiven (my point). So, homosexuality is a sin. So its forgiven, but only because a true conviction is there to not repeat the sin. I am genuinely confused. How is sexuality NOT mentioned in the Apostle's Creed when homosexuality is considered a sin?