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#1 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio

I nominate Michael Phelps for the status of peak human, along the lines of Captain America. Also Lance Armstrong.

#2 Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (84704 posts) - - Show Bio

As soon as they start dodgin bullets

#3 Posted by Mer-Man (3360 posts) - - Show Bio

Michael Phelps consumes 12,000 calories a day and still looks like that.

#4 Posted by No_Name_ (12593 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"As soon as they start dodgin bullets"
Like you ;)
#5 Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (84704 posts) - - Show Bio
keep tryin
#6 Posted by No_Name_ (12593 posts) - - Show Bio

Ahh but who does it better..?

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#7 Posted by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (84704 posts) - - Show Bio

 I dont wanna highjack the thread :) ah $#@! it.


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#8 Posted by No_Name_ (12593 posts) - - Show Bio

Hijack away, thats a great scan. I love it. :)

#9 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio
Mer-Man said:
"Michael Phelps consumes 12,000 calories a day and still looks like that."
it's like that vodka commercial. Fat guy goes swimming and turns into an anorexic.
#10 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"As soon as they start dodgin bullets"
well he hasn't been shot yet lol
#11 Posted by speedlgt (2109 posts) - - Show Bio

what are some real life example of peak human traits?

for example Randy couture's punches are they peak human? his wrestling is that peak human?
Jordans jumping ability is that peak human?
would all world records at the Olympics be considered peak human?
and what of worlds strongest man comps is all those feats considered peak human?

or none of these as peak human could be possibly slightly beyond whats previouslyuly seen in our world?

#12 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio

Copied from wiki
Phelps has won 16 Olympic medals: six gold and two bronze at Athens in 2004, and eight gold at the 2008 Summer Olympics in Beijing.

That is just crazy. Though it turns out i was mistaken. he is not a peak human. he is really a mer-man.

phelps
#13 Posted by pixelized (62883 posts) - - Show Bio
speedlgt said:
"what are some real life example of peak human traits?

for example Randy couture's punches are they peak human? his wrestling is that peak human?
"
Randy couture? why haven't i heard of him
#14 Posted by Nighthunter (28582 posts) - - Show Bio
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#15 Posted by Andferne (38808 posts) - - Show Bio

Randy the Natural Couture is a UFC fighter and in my opinion one of the best of all time.

#16 Posted by pixelized (62883 posts) - - Show Bio
Andferne said:
"Randy the Natural Couture is a UFC fighter and in my opinion one of the best of all time."
Last Name Couture...that's a given
#17 Posted by Nighthunter (28582 posts) - - Show Bio

wait...this ain't for comics?

#18 Posted by Apparition (11349 posts) - - Show Bio
Under Dog said:
"I nominate Michael Phelps for the status of peak human, along the lines of Captain America. Also Lance Armstrong."

nomination denied.

speedlgt said:
"what are some real life example of peak human traits?

for example Randy couture's punches are they peak human? his wrestling is that peak human?
Jordans jumping ability is that peak human?
would all world records at the Olympics be considered peak human?
and what of worlds strongest man comps is all those feats considered peak human?

or none of these as peak human could be possibly slightly beyond whats previouslyuly seen in our world?
"

none of that's peak human.  peak human is greater than any olympic athlete can ever do.  suppose you'd said that carl lewis was peak human.  does that mean that bolt is now a superhuman?  as long as there is a chance that anyone can ever pass what someone in the olympics did, then it isnt peak human.
#19 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio
Apparition said:
none of that's peak human.  peak human is greater than any olympic athlete can ever do.  suppose you'd said that carl lewis was peak human.  does that mean that bolt is now a superhuman?  as long as there is a chance that anyone can ever pass what someone in the olympics did, then it isnt peak human."
I would say, as long as it is the best a human has ever done, it would be peak. If someone comes along and performs better, that would set the new standard of peak. Like a peak of a mountain is what it is at, but someone can come along and throw more dirt on the mound, making the peak higher. Also as evolution takes effect, humans may continue to increase in their abilities without becoming mutants. Your definition of peak would now mean, no body is or ever can be considered peak.
#20 Posted by The_Absolute (892 posts) - - Show Bio

Peak Human = dodging bullets?!

That's ridiculous. Bullets travel faster than the speed of sound. There's a difference between dodging a bullet and a shooter missing his moving target. True bullet dodging - in the case of going from flat-footed to evading an almost point blank range shot - is a super human feat. Making yourself a more difficult target to hit doesn't necessarily require you to be peak human either.

Peak human strength = 850 lbs
Peak human speed = 75mph
Peak human durability = n/a (you can't make your skin harder - it get cut the same way as anyone elses)
Peak human intelligence = no idea (let's just say I don't qualify)
Peak human agility = how the heck would you measure that?

#21 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio
Under Dog said:
"I would say, as long as it is the best a human has ever done, it would be peak. If someone comes along and performs better, that would set the new standard of peak. Like a peak of a mountain is what it is at, but someone can come along and throw more dirt on the mound, making the peak higher. Also as evolution takes effect, humans may continue to increase in their abilities without becoming mutants. Your definition of peak would now mean, no body is or ever can be considered peak."
Being the current standard isnt what peak is.  Peak is the absolute most that can be done.  So a peak human would be at the maximum level that any human could ever achieve.  Your mountain analogy is a bit disengenuous.  The mountain would be human ability so the peak of human ability would be most that a human could ever achieve, and this would be taking evolution into account.  Her definition would mean that no one who trained themselves to reach the human peaks would ever be able to reach them, yet someone who was artificially raised to that level could.

It's more in line with thinking of peak as the levels that the human form could possibly attain, while still mainting the things that make us human (two arms, two legs, a spine, etc.).  Thus to be able to run any faster, jump any further, or lift any more weight, the person would not be considered a human anymore at all. 

Personally, I believe this to be what was meant when the term was used to describe characters like Captain America.  If it was what you propose, then he would have been the best that an Olympian in the 40s could attain but Cap would have been routinely outperformed by Olympic athletes now.  That certainly wouldn't describe a peak human.
#22 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio
PhoenixSouvenir said:
"Peak Human = dodging bullets?!

That's ridiculous. Bullets travel faster than the speed of sound. There's a difference between dodging a bullet and a shooter missing his moving target. True bullet dodging - in the case of going from flat-footed to evading an almost point blank range shot - is a super human feat. Making yourself a more difficult target to hit doesn't necessarily require you to be peak human either.

Peak human strength = 850 lbs
Peak human speed = 75mph
Peak human durability = n/a (you can't make your skin harder - it get cut the same way as anyone elses)
Peak human intelligence = no idea (let's just say I don't qualify)
Peak human agility = how the heck would you measure that?"

I agree with you.  Any showing of a human being dodging a bullet after it has been fired should be considered peak human.  The only problem with that is that DC has decided that Cassandra Cain is a peak human and yet she has a showing of dodging bullets long after they have been fired.
#23 Posted by speedlgt (2109 posts) - - Show Bio

is daredevil considered peak  human or superhuman?

how about this
lets compare captain america (the perfect peak human) to wolverine
whos stronger
faster
agile

#24 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio

Daredevil is at near peak human levels, though his powers allow at least peak level acrobatic ability (heightened sense of balance).

Wolverine is stronger in the sense that his bones are far sturdier, allowing him to lift, I believe it is two tons over his head.  It has been said that his healing factor and his unbreakable bone structure have allowed him to train his muscles to exceed peak human levels, as he was below peak human when he was first introduced.  So Wolverine is clearly stronger.

Captain America has been shown consistently more agile than Wolverine, and is usually shown as faster or quicker.  Though Wolverine has his moments of being displayed as clearly superhuman at least in quickness.  I would lean more toward Captain America in these attributes as his level is usually shown at a higher level then Logan's.

#25 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio
Forever said:
"Under Dog said:
"I would say, as long as it is the best a human has ever done, it would be peak. If someone comes along and performs better, that would set the new standard of peak. Like a peak of a mountain is what it is at, but someone can come along and throw more dirt on the mound, making the peak higher. Also as evolution takes effect, humans may continue to increase in their abilities without becoming mutants. Your definition of peak would now mean, no body is or ever can be considered peak."
Being the current standard isnt what peak is.  Peak is the absolute most that can be done.  So a peak human would be at the maximum level that any human could ever achieve.  Your mountain analogy is a bit disengenuous.  The mountain would be human ability so the peak of human ability would be most that a human could ever achieve, and this would be taking evolution into account.  Her definition would mean that no one who trained themselves to reach the human peaks would ever be able to reach them, yet someone who was artificially raised to that level could.

It's more in line with thinking of peak as the levels that the human form could possibly attain, while still mainting the things that make us human (two arms, two legs, a spine, etc.).  Thus to be able to run any faster, jump any further, or lift any more weight, the person would not be considered a human anymore at all. 

Personally, I believe this to be what was meant when the term was used to describe characters like Captain America.  If it was what you propose, then he would have been the best that an Olympian in the 40s could attain but Cap would have been routinely outperformed by Olympic athletes now.  That certainly wouldn't describe a peak human."
how is the analogy disingenuous?  "lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere:"   the peak of a mountain changes over time, whether by being increased through earthquakes, or lowered by erosion. Peak is a relative term. It has to be able to change, otherwise it never took any sort of evolution into account  at all. Taking Captain America as an example of peak. That would be saying that no one could ever surpass him ever. That there is no possible way for evolution of the human race to go beyond that point. Look up Paul Anderson. Guy lifted 3 tons. Is that not possibly over what captain has done? The bio here says captain america bench pressed 1100 lbs. The current real world record is over 1000lbs. Are you saying that it is not possible that someone could then do over 1100 lbs?  If the peak setting cannot be changed, and is a static setting, then it really isn't peak at all, it's just an arbitrary number.
#26 Posted by Hawk (15833 posts) - - Show Bio

75 mph for peak human........that's just stupid. The current faster man runs under 30 mph.
And 850 lbs is too light for strength. People squat more than that all the time.

#27 Posted by speedlgt (2109 posts) - - Show Bio

OK peak human is CAP and he would out do every gold medal winner ever so think of all those records and he would beat them.
he would beat every worlds strongest man toruney.
He would punch harder than Ali or Chuck Liddell
He could slam some one harder than kurt angle
he could preform the entire corse of ninja warrior with ease and never mess up
basically he would greater than any pro sports guy on the planet

#28 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio
speedlgt said:
"OK peak human is CAP and he would out do every gold medal winner ever so think of all those records and he would beat them.
he would beat every worlds strongest man toruney.
He would punch harder than Ali or Chuck Liddell
He could slam some one harder than kurt angle
he could preform the entire corse of ninja warrior with ease and never mess up
basically he would greater than any pro sports guy on the planet"
In the marvel U. He's dead now, so his standard is set. If anyone lifts more from the point of his death on, it doesn't mean cap retroactively gets better.
#29 Posted by speedlgt (2109 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say it just means he could have done it but didnt

#30 Posted by Hawk (15833 posts) - - Show Bio
speedlgt said:
"OK peak human is CAP and he would out do every gold medal winner ever so think of all those records and he would beat them.
he would beat every worlds strongest man toruney.
He would punch harder than Ali or Chuck Liddell
He could slam some one harder than kurt angle
he could preform the entire corse of ninja warrior with ease and never mess up
basically he would greater than any pro sports guy on the planet"
so Chuck Norris?!
#31 Posted by speedlgt (2109 posts) - - Show Bio

he would kill chuck norris

#32 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio
Under Dog said:
"how is the analogy disingenuous?  "lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere:"   the peak of a mountain changes over time, whether by being increased through earthquakes, or lowered by erosion. Peak is a relative term. It has to be able to change, otherwise it never took any sort of evolution into account  at all. Taking Captain America as an example of peak. That would be saying that no one could ever surpass him ever. That there is no possible way for evolution of the human race to go beyond that point. Look up Paul Anderson. Guy lifted 3 tons. Is that not possibly over what captain has done? The bio here says captain america bench pressed 1100 lbs. The current real world record is over 1000lbs. Are you saying that it is not possible that someone could then do over 1100 lbs?  If the peak setting cannot be changed, and is a static setting, then it really isn't peak at all, it's just an arbitrary number."

The analogy is disingenuous because a mountain can rise and lower while the peak of human development is an abstract.  It is something that never can be obtained because every record that is reached will eventually be broken.  You can not have reached the peak of human development and have that peak surpassed.  Youre looking at it as if it means the best that man is capable of right now, when it is being used to mean the best that the human race will ever be capable of.

Your example of Captain America is precisely correct.  If he was a peak human, then no human could surpass him ever.  Not tomorrow.  Not fifty years from now.  Not ten billion years from now.

I'm saying that is the intent of the character.  They wrote down numbers because people want to know how much Cap can lift.  They felt that lifting a ton or even half a ton over his head would be superhuman, so 800 lbs was determined to be his military press.  This was chosen a long time ago and if someone was able to surpass that then they would certainly say that Cap can lift more than that as well.  They chose the bench press numbers but that is what he has been observed benching.  You dont know how many reps he did or whether he can actually bench more than that or not.  The writers saw that real individuals were approaching those levels and so they showed Cap working out with what would be a max lift for the strongest men in the world.  Probably when they put that in, the strongest benchers were still some ways away from that amount too so they actually wanted to show him working out with more than the strongest benchers can lift.

The peak has to be an arbitrary number because if, in the 40s, you were writing Captain America and you wanted him to be the peak of human physical perfection, you might say that he can run 100 meters in 10 seconds, bench press half a ton (1000 lbs), run a marathon in three hours and run a mile in five minutes.  All of those things have been surpassed now.  Should that mean that Captain America never actually was the peak of physical human perfection?  So they push things as far as they can without making him what they think the audience would see as being superhuman.  Such as having him run 60 miles in an hour.
#33 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio
Hawk said:
"75 mph for peak human........that's just stupid. The current faster man runs under 30 mph.
And 850 lbs is too light for strength. People squat more than that all the time."

That's the problem they run into when trying to define a peak human with stats.  Too far and people start to think it's superhuman.  Too close and people know that it can be attained by normal humans.  The 850 lbs isnt a squat, by the way.  It's a military press, where you lift the weight over your head while standing there.  I agree it should be higher though, but I wouldnt paint myself into a corner with a number.
#34 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio
Forever said:
"Under Dog said:
"how is the analogy disingenuous?  "lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere:"   the peak of a mountain changes over time, whether by being increased through earthquakes, or lowered by erosion. Peak is a relative term. It has to be able to change, otherwise it never took any sort of evolution into account  at all. Taking Captain America as an example of peak. That would be saying that no one could ever surpass him ever. That there is no possible way for evolution of the human race to go beyond that point. Look up Paul Anderson. Guy lifted 3 tons. Is that not possibly over what captain has done? The bio here says captain america bench pressed 1100 lbs. The current real world record is over 1000lbs. Are you saying that it is not possible that someone could then do over 1100 lbs?  If the peak setting cannot be changed, and is a static setting, then it really isn't peak at all, it's just an arbitrary number."

The analogy is disingenuous because a mountain can rise and lower while the peak of human development is an abstract.  It is something that never can be obtained because every record that is reached will eventually be broken.  You can not have reached the peak of human development and have that peak surpassed.  Youre looking at it as if it means the best that man is capable of right now, when it is being used to mean the best that the human race will ever be capable of.

Your example of Captain America is precisely correct.  If he was a peak human, then no human could surpass him ever.  Not tomorrow.  Not fifty years from now.  Not ten billion years from now.

I'm saying that is the intent of the character.  They wrote down numbers because people want to know how much Cap can lift.  They felt that lifting a ton or even half a ton over his head would be superhuman, so 800 lbs was determined to be his military press.  This was chosen a long time ago and if someone was able to surpass that then they would certainly say that Cap can lift more than that as well.  They chose the bench press numbers but that is what he has been observed benching.  You dont know how many reps he did or whether he can actually bench more than that or not.  The writers saw that real individuals were approaching those levels and so they showed Cap working out with what would be a max lift for the strongest men in the world.  Probably when they put that in, the strongest benchers were still some ways away from that amount too so they actually wanted to show him working out with more than the strongest benchers can lift.

The peak has to be an arbitrary number because if, in the 40s, you were writing Captain America and you wanted him to be the peak of human physical perfection, you might say that he can run 100 meters in 10 seconds, bench press half a ton (1000 lbs), run a marathon in three hours and run a mile in five minutes.  All of those things have been surpassed now.  Should that mean that Captain America never actually was the peak of physical human perfection?  So they push things as far as they can without making him what they think the audience would see as being superhuman.  Such as having him run 60 miles in an hour."
So peak has to be an arbitrary number ( Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle), and not a number subject to change? The fact is, that Cap, the measuring bar for peak human, died. Now anything that a human does after that point, that goes above what he could, will increase the peak, unless they are constantly retroactively increasing his abilities. And if that is the case, the Cap we all knew, never really was peak human.
#35 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio
Under Dog said:
"So peak has to be an arbitrary number ( Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle), and not a number subject to change? The fact is, that Cap, the measuring bar for peak human, died. Now anything that a human does after that point, that goes above what he could, will increase the peak, unless they are constantly retroactively increasing his abilities. And if that is the case, the Cap we all knew, never really was peak human."

No.  Not determined by chance, whim, or impulse.  Think of it this way.  The simple human form of two arms and two legs and a spine, all held together with bone, cartilage and muscle at a certain point that structure can only hold so much.  No matter how much muscle you have or how dense your bone is, if it is still bone and muscle and cartilage in that human form then you can only lift a certain amount.  I dont know what that amount is, but it can probably be calculated.  That calculated number can be used, but it might be so high as to be thought superhuman.  They have already said that Beast had superhuman strength when he first joined the X-Men and could lift 1 ton.  Suppose that max rating for the human body is actually 2 tons?  Well then that makes Captain America and these other peak humans look superhuman and that is not the intent.  The intent was to have them at levels just below the impossible but out of reach for mankind.  You could work your hardest to attain the speed, strength, stamina, etc. of a Captain America and though you could never attain that, you would be the better for trying.

Youre ignoring what I have been saying about a peak.  Say for instance that they had done the calculations I spoke of in my last paragraph for strength, endurance, speed, and every other attribute that could have been thought of, and listed Captain America at those levels in his first comic book.  His dying would not change the fact that no one would ever surpass those peak levels.  It's supposed to be the peak of human possibilities.  Your argument is that we have to let people surpass Cap's peak levels or we will know that he never was peak human.  But being the best of a certain time period is not the definition of peak human.  Being the best that humanity had to offer from the 40s is not what makes you peak human.  Being the best that the human race can achieve is what makes you peak human.  The best that the human race can ever achieve.  You cant pass that and still be human.
#36 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio
Forever said:
"Under Dog said:
"So peak has to be an arbitrary number ( Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle), and not a number subject to change? The fact is, that Cap, the measuring bar for peak human, died. Now anything that a human does after that point, that goes above what he could, will increase the peak, unless they are constantly retroactively increasing his abilities. And if that is the case, the Cap we all knew, never really was peak human."

No.  Not determined by chance, whim, or impulse.  Think of it this way.  The simple human form of two arms and two legs and a spine, all held together with bone, cartilage and muscle at a certain point that structure can only hold so much.  No matter how much muscle you have or how dense your bone is, if it is still bone and muscle and cartilage in that human form then you can only lift a certain amount.  I dont know what that amount is, but it can probably be calculated.  That calculated number can be used, but it might be so high as to be thought superhuman.  They have already said that Beast had superhuman strength when he first joined the X-Men and could lift 1 ton.  Suppose that max rating for the human body is actually 2 tons?  Well then that makes Captain America and these other peak humans look superhuman and that is not the intent.  The intent was to have them at levels just below the impossible but out of reach for mankind.  You could work your hardest to attain the speed, strength, stamina, etc. of a Captain America and though you could never attain that, you would be the better for trying.

Youre ignoring what I have been saying about a peak.  Say for instance that they had done the calculations I spoke of in my last paragraph for strength, endurance, speed, and every other attribute that could have been thought of, and listed Captain America at those levels in his first comic book.  His dying would not change the fact that no one would ever surpass those peak levels.  It's supposed to be the peak of human possibilities.  Your argument is that we have to let people surpass Cap's peak levels or we will know that he never was peak human.  But being the best of a certain time period is not the definition of peak human.  Being the best that humanity had to offer from the 40s is not what makes you peak human.  Being the best that the human race can achieve is what makes you peak human.  The best that the human race can ever achieve.  You cant pass that and still be human."
Im not talking about LETTING people pass him. He already has his showings, any thing done after that by a human increases peak. I'm arguing that the human race can continue to change. your completely ruiling out any sort of racial evolution. Bone densities can increase, allowing for an increase in maximum weight lifting, lung capacity, and the whole cardiovascular system can get better, allowing for more endurance. Im saying that precisely because humanity can change, and get better that the rating for peak also have to change and get higher, along side humanity. They did arbitrarily give Cap his stats, and called it peak, and at the time maybe it was, but saying that at that time he was peak, that no one can improve on it, is to rule out any advancement. That would be like saying someone is a record holder, and denying anyone in the future to take the record.  So Caps showings may be the peak for his entire life, but once he is outdone, peak increases. Peak is just the record, and the records can be broken.
#37 Posted by Hawk (15833 posts) - - Show Bio

I will think of peak human as.............The top level that the human body could ever reach.

#38 Posted by Apparition (11349 posts) - - Show Bio
Hawk said:
"I will think of peak human as.............The top level that the human body could ever reach."

exactly.  i wonder why underdog cant figure that out.
#39 Posted by Super-Buster (2358 posts) - - Show Bio
Under Dog said:
Im not talking about LETTING people pass him. He already has his showings, any thing done after that by a human increases peak. I'm arguing that the human race can continue to change. your completely ruiling out any sort of racial evolution. Bone densities can increase, allowing for an increase in maximum weight lifting, lung capacity, and the whole cardiovascular system can get better, allowing for more endurance. Im saying that precisely because humanity can change, and get better that the rating for peak also have to change and get higher, along side humanity. They did arbitrarily give Cap his stats, and called it peak, and at the time maybe it was, but saying that at that time he was peak, that no one can improve on it, is to rule out any advancement. That would be like saying someone is a record holder, and denying anyone in the future to take the record.  So Caps showings may be the peak for his entire life, but once he is outdone, peak increases. Peak is just the record, and the records can be broken."
Actually, he didn't rule it out at all, he has included it all along.:
"The analogy is disingenuous because a mountain can rise and lower while the peak of human development is an abstract.  It is something that never can be obtained because every record that is reached will eventually be broken.  You can not have reached the peak of human development and have that peak surpassed.  Youre looking at it as if it means the best that man is capable of right now, when it is being used to mean the best that the human race will ever be capable of."

There is a certain point in human evolution where we become something different than human (whether is be "Homo Superior" or some other race) and that limit is where Cap is at. When Cap's creators gave him his stats they were meant to be the best that humanity could ever achieve, not the best at that time, the fact that humans now are approaching those limits means only that they didn't know what the peak of human development is at that time and they made a miscalculation.
#40 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio
Super-Buster said:
"Under Dog said:
Im not talking about LETTING people pass him. He already has his showings, any thing done after that by a human increases peak. I'm arguing that the human race can continue to change. your completely ruiling out any sort of racial evolution. Bone densities can increase, allowing for an increase in maximum weight lifting, lung capacity, and the whole cardiovascular system can get better, allowing for more endurance. Im saying that precisely because humanity can change, and get better that the rating for peak also have to change and get higher, along side humanity. They did arbitrarily give Cap his stats, and called it peak, and at the time maybe it was, but saying that at that time he was peak, that no one can improve on it, is to rule out any advancement. That would be like saying someone is a record holder, and denying anyone in the future to take the record.  So Caps showings may be the peak for his entire life, but once he is outdone, peak increases. Peak is just the record, and the records can be broken."
Actually, he didn't rule it out at all, he has included it all along.:
"The analogy is disingenuous because a mountain can rise and lower while the peak of human development is an abstract.  It is something that never can be obtained because every record that is reached will eventually be broken.  You can not have reached the peak of human development and have that peak surpassed.  Youre looking at it as if it means the best that man is capable of right now, when it is being used to mean the best that the human race will ever be capable of."

There is a certain point in human evolution where we become something different than human (whether is be "Homo Superior" or some other race) and that limit is where Cap is at. When Cap's creators gave him his stats they were meant to be the best that humanity could ever achieve, not the best at that time, the fact that humans now are approaching those limits means only that they didn't know what the peak of human development is at that time and they made a miscalculation.
"
That is exactly my point. we don't know the limit, so peak has to be adjustable cause we really don't know the limit and it may be shown that humanity can do better. The human race has drastically increased it's limits already. People used to think no one could ever possibly lift more than 500lbs, and that stigma put it off for a while. Then it happened and it's been off to the races since then. So unless peak human can change, being homo-sapian is no longer dictated by genetics, but by performance.
#41 Posted by Super-Buster (2358 posts) - - Show Bio
Under Dog said:
That is exactly my point. we don't know the limit, so peak has to be adjustable cause we really don't know the limit and it may be shown that humanity can do better. The human race has drastically increased it's limits already. People used to think no one could ever possibly lift more than 500lbs, and that stigma put it off for a while. Then it happened and it's been off to the races since then. So unless peak human can change, being homo-sapian is no longer dictated by genetics, but by performance."
No, peak is the limit. Simply because we do not know that limit (I imagine it can be calculated) does not mean that it keeps changing. It will remain the same forever and humanity, through evolution, might eventually reach that limit but at that point they become something other than human. Thus, if anything at the peak (The highest humanity could ever achieve, taking into account evolution) or lower is human and anything higher than the peak is inhuman, then it is not possible for a human to become anything more than peak and still retain his or her humanity, ever. 
I used to think Forever stopped posting because he had something he had to take care of, I'm beginning to see the real reason.
#42 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio
Super-Buster said:
"Under Dog said:
That is exactly my point. we don't know the limit, so peak has to be adjustable cause we really don't know the limit and it may be shown that humanity can do better. The human race has drastically increased it's limits already. People used to think no one could ever possibly lift more than 500lbs, and that stigma put it off for a while. Then it happened and it's been off to the races since then. So unless peak human can change, being homo-sapian is no longer dictated by genetics, but by performance."
No, peak is the limit. Simply because we do not know that limit (I imagine it can be calculated) does not mean that it keeps changing. It will remain the same forever and humanity, through evolution, might eventually reach that limit but at that point they become something other than human. Thus, if anything at the peak (The highest humanity could ever achieve, taking into account evolution) or lower is human and anything higher than the peak is inhuman, then it is not possible for a human to become anything more than peak and still retain his or her humanity, ever. 
I used to think Forever stopped posting because he had something he had to take care of, I'm beginning to see the real reason.
"
The idea of peak, the abstract concept will not change, but the attributes we associate with it would.
#43 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio
Under Dog said:
"The idea of peak, the abstract concept will not change, but the attributes we associate with it would."

The point being that anyone who attains that abstract does in fact obtain the abstract.  If the writers thought peak human, in 1940 meant lifting 800 lbs over your head but in 2020 they think that it is lifting 1500 lbs over your head, then if Captain America was ever a peak human he could do whatever a peak human could do.  So in 2020 they would say that Captain America was able to lift 1500 lbs over his head.  Anything less and he would not have been a peak human.
#44 Posted by Resonate (15054 posts) - - Show Bio
Gambler said:
"As soon as they start dodgin bullets"
\:D
#45 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio
Forever said:
"Under Dog said:
"The idea of peak, the abstract concept will not change, but the attributes we associate with it would."

The point being that anyone who attains that abstract does in fact obtain the abstract.  If the writers thought peak human, in 1940 meant lifting 800 lbs over your head but in 2020 they think that it is lifting 1500 lbs over your head, then if Captain America was ever a peak human he could do whatever a peak human could do.  So in 2020 they would say that Captain America was able to lift 1500 lbs over his head.  Anything less and he would not have been a peak human."
See that is the retroactive change I was talking about. The best way to go about it is, to say, humanity had gotten better. Like in science, when you come to a better understanding, you adjust your viewpoint, and bring in new knowledge. You don't just cling to old abstract ideas just cause. You use the new ones. Cap had been classified as peak, based on all the scientific data available at the time. So when another human comes along and shows an improved feat, you look back on the old, and adjust it to the new data.
#46 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio
Under Dog said:
"See that is the retroactive change I was talking about. The best way to go about it is, to say, humanity had gotten better. Like in science, when you come to a better understanding, you adjust your viewpoint, and bring in new knowledge. You don't just cling to old abstract ideas just cause. You use the new ones. Cap had been classified as peak, based on all the scientific data available at the time. So when another human comes along and shows an improved feat, you look back on the old, and adjust it to the new data."

Think of it this way.  There is a limit on how far evolution for humanity can go.  At some point for a human to swim any faster, he would have to have a tail and fins.  To run any faster, he would have to be running on four legs.  That's wear a peak human is.  To do anything a peak human can do better than they can, would mean that you were either a superhuman or you werent human at all.

I dont understand why you keep saying humanity has gotten better when I keep stressing this point.  Humanity can't get any better than it's peak.  We arent talking about it's 1920s peak or its 1980s peak, where it's the peak of what humans could do at that time.  We're talking about humanity's peak, where you cant do any better as a human being.  That takes evolution into account.  This is a line that you cant evolve beyond.  Cap isnt the peak based on all of the scientific data that was available at the time.  He was written as the best that the human race could ever possibly achieve.  There is no human who can come along and improve on the feats of someone who is truly peak human.
#47 Edited by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio
Forever said:
"Under Dog said:
"See that is the retroactive change I was talking about. The best way to go about it is, to say, humanity had gotten better. Like in science, when you come to a better understanding, you adjust your viewpoint, and bring in new knowledge. You don't just cling to old abstract ideas just cause. You use the new ones. Cap had been classified as peak, based on all the scientific data available at the time. So when another human comes along and shows an improved feat, you look back on the old, and adjust it to the new data."

Think of it this way.  There is a limit on how far evolution for humanity can go.  At some point for a human to swim any faster, he would have to have a tail and fins.  To run any faster, he would have to be running on four legs.  That's wear a peak human is.  To do anything a peak human can do better than they can, would mean that you were either a superhuman or you werent human at all.

I dont understand why you keep saying humanity has gotten better when I keep stressing this point.  Humanity can't get any better than it's peak.  We arent talking about it's 1920s peak or its 1980s peak, where it's the peak of what humans could do at that time.  We're talking about humanity's peak, where you cant do any better as a human being.  That takes evolution into account.  This is a line that you cant evolve beyond.  Cap isnt the peak based on all of the scientific data that was available at the time.  He was written as the best that the human race could ever possibly achieve.  There is no human who can come along and improve on the feats of someone who is truly peak human."
We are also talking about a rating made by people who may not have all the information to say for sure. So saying cap is peak human in absolutes without having infinite knowledge of all possible futures is pretty premature. You are also not taking into account that i am also relating this to the real world, in which the way cap was written does not apply. Real humans aren't going to say, well, i'm not gonna lift more, cause cap didn't.
#48 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio
Under Dog said:
"We are also talking about a rating made by people who may not have all the information to say for sure. So saying cap is peak human in absolutes without having infinite knowledge of all possible futures is pretty premature. You are also not taking into account that i am also relating this to the real world, in which the way cap was written does not apply. Real humans aren't going to say, well, i'm not gonna lift more, cause cap didn't."

I would go along with that if it was just the doctors who were present who pronounced Cap a peak human.  But it was the all knowing narrator who did.  When one of the characters says someone is moving at the speed of light or can lift 10,000 tons, then I take it as hyperbole and not meaning very much.  But when the narration states something then that is intended to be true.  So Cap, and others, are not peak human only as understood by their current scientists but they actually are peak human because that's what the writers and creators of the characters wanted them to be.

The writers and creators of the characters made up the world that these characters are in, so they actually do have infinite knowledge of all possible futures.  I know youre relating it to the real world.  I have taken that into account.  That's why I went through those long explanations of what the writers should have done when determining a maximum weight for the character to be able to lift.  Because the human body structure will top out at a certain point.  That point is what the writers mean for Cap to be at, so real humans should never be able to reach that point.
#49 Posted by Under Dog (168 posts) - - Show Bio
Forever said:
"Under Dog said:
"We are also talking about a rating made by people who may not have all the information to say for sure. So saying cap is peak human in absolutes without having infinite knowledge of all possible futures is pretty premature. You are also not taking into account that i am also relating this to the real world, in which the way cap was written does not apply. Real humans aren't going to say, well, i'm not gonna lift more, cause cap didn't."

I would go along with that if it was just the doctors who were present who pronounced Cap a peak human.  But it was the all knowing narrator who did.  When one of the characters says someone is moving at the speed of light or can lift 10,000 tons, then I take it as hyperbole and not meaning very much.  But when the narration states something then that is intended to be true.  So Cap, and others, are not peak human only as understood by their current scientists but they actually are peak human because that's what the writers and creators of the characters wanted them to be.

The writers and creators of the characters made up the world that these characters are in, so they actually do have infinite knowledge of all possible futures.  I know youre relating it to the real world.  I have taken that into account.  That's why I went through those long explanations of what the writers should have done when determining a maximum weight for the character to be able to lift.  Because the human body structure will top out at a certain point.  That point is what the writers mean for Cap to be at, so real humans should never be able to reach that point."
That is where i am attributing human error. Where the comic creators give him the status of peak, without actually having some sort of factual backup for it. So should a human(real) outperform Cap in a given area, they need to up the limits on peak human. Also the comic creators retire/quit/die, so they won't always have control, and it may very well change in the MU before it happens in the real world too.
#50 Posted by Forever (4332 posts) - - Show Bio
Under Dog said:
"That is where i am attributing human error. Where the comic creators give him the status of peak, without actually having some sort of factual backup for it. So should a human(real) outperform Cap in a given area, they need to up the limits on peak human. Also the comic creators retire/quit/die, so they won't always have control, and it may very well change in the MU before it happens in the real world too."

I understand completely what youre saying but there doesn't have to be any human error.  Suppose you were the writer and you wanted to have a truly peak human.  Not someone who is pretty impressive but someone who tops out at the end of human evolution.  You say he's peak human and you list limits for him.  It wouldnt be very hard to bend or break those limits as real life humans approach them.

You said that he could lift 800 lbs over his head with great strain and now regular humans are approaching that?  Show him lifting more.  How can he lift more than what he was rated at?  He was tired that day from all of the testing.  Because he knew it was just a test his addrenaline wasnt flowing but when it does he can easily double that 800 lb limit.  There are lots of things you can say to show how the limits you listed were just in-comic, man made errors.

The comic creators do quit/retire/die but those who carry on, tend to carry on in the spirit of the character.  Most characters are still basically what they were conceived to be, unless there was a better take on that character or the original conception didnt work for the audience.  Cap has been established as a peak human for about 40 years so there is no reason to think that any new comer would mess that up.   Also newer writers tend to be fans of the earlier writers and their characters, so they do tend to try to pay respect to those characters, for the most part.

I dont see any conceivable reason that they would say that established peak humans arent actually peak humans and would show humanity evolving beyond them.  Unless it was some ludicrous throw away story line for the X-Men.