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consolemaster001

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@pooty said:

@consolemaster001: As for the second one do you mean people who aren't muslim or people who don't believe in god alltogether

both please

As for non muslims there are two possibilities:

There are some people who have not been reached by the message of the Prophet of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace) that we must worship the One God alone, associating nothing else with Him. Such people are innocent, and will not be punished no matter what they do. Allah says in surat al-Isra',

"We do not punish until We send a Messenger"

(Quran 17:15).

These include, for example, Christians and others who lived in the period after the spread of the myth of Jesus godhood, until the time of the prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace), who renewed the call to pure monotheism.

Possibility No. 2

A second group of people consists of those who turn away from God's divine message of Islam, rejecting the command to make their worship God's alone; whether because of blindly imitating the religion of their ancestors, or for some other reason. These are people to whom God has sent a prophetic messenger and reached with his message, and to whom he has given hearing and an intellect with which to grasp it but after all this they persist in associating others with Allah, either by actually worshipping another, or by rejecting the laws brought by His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace), which associates their own customs with his prerogative to be worshipped as he directs. Such people have violated God's rights, and have accepted to go to hell, which is precisely what His messengers have warned them of, so they have no excuse:

"Truly, Allah does not forgive that any be associated with Him; but He forgives what is less than that to whomever He wills"

(Koran 4:48).

In either case, Allah's mercy exists, though for non-Muslims unreached by the message, it is a question of divine amnesty for their ignorance, not a confirmation of their religions validity. It is worth knowing the difference between these two things, for one's eternal fate depends on it.

As for atheists:

Let's say that, that atheist is the best person alive. Say he gave to charity, dontated money, never lied, never backstabed anyone, dressed modestly, etc. God is who rewards the good and punishes the bad. For this reason, he who doesn't believe in God, has no claim to any reward from God. He may be doing apparently good deeds; but his good deeds are not based on seeking to do God's will. So they can only get the instrumentally good results that they can naturally have in this world, and not the reward of the other world which can only come from morally good acts.

"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Quran 2:62)

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PrinceAragorn1

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#152  Edited By PrinceAragorn1

Islam has plenty of evidence to backup its claim to be the true religion. In the quran the are plenty of verses talking about scientific facts hundreds of years before they were discovered, including the solar system, reproducing, atoms and even the big bang theory.

Islam is also against discrimination. Islamic leaders in the past (and especially in the ottoman empire) have treated their citizens equally regardless of their race, religion etc.

I am not sure how being scientifically true proves it to be 'the true religion'. I mean, there were Rishis who had explained the atomic structure, and notably, they had calculated the speed of light from accuracy ranging from a few significant digits to two decimal points.. But that doesn't make Vedas the ultimate authority of the world, does it?

I personally never found 'one true religion' very appealing.

You are mainly talking about ottoman empire, right? Because in Indian history, we have a whole lot of things done by the sultans, like breaking temples, killing priests, throwing dead animals in sacred places, and the infamous Jiziya which was a tax heavily paid by most non-muslims? Well, obviously, they did a lot of other diabolic things, too, like giving your father a poison massage, blinding and imprisoning siblings, the stuff I'd rather not talk about, so you have every right to say they were not real Muslims, I am just saying that people of no religion in the world (that I know of) have been pure gold.

Well, to be perfectly clear, I am not in any way against islam, but I was just wondering if you ever thought of these things.

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PrinceAragorn1

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Ok. I have absolutely no idea why I just replied to a month old comment on the first page :(

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#154  Edited By pooty
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Is it safe to come out now ? ok.

I decided to re visit this thread and re read the arguments i had with the other users here. And after doing some research on my own i realised that almost 99% of the things i said regarding homosexuals in islam was false ! My arguments were filled with contradicting and hypocritical statements and more. My most sincere apologies to @mrdecepticonleader and @pooty as i have been dishing out misinformation. I know what you're typing and before you click "post reply" and send a comment which probably reads "Typical uneducated muslim" i'd like to clarify that i am not a scholar nor a teacher, i am just an ordinary muslim trying to preach my religion. You'll notice that i've edited my first post so you can check the link i wrote. If you have any further questions about Islam you can ask me, if you're unsatisfied and unconvinced with my answer then i can send you a much more helpful source.

Thanks for reading- Consolemaster001

No I don't really have any other questions regarding Islam,but thanks anyway.And no my thoughts were no where near that.We all slip we are just human after all.

Oh wait I actually do have a question.What are the actual Islamic views on homosexuality?

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#156  Edited By BiteMe-Fanboy

Believe what you want. But you're wrong if you laugh at other peoples beliefs. Simple as that. And the lack of the mods and staff warning people who criticize other peoples beliefs on this site is troubling.

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#157  Edited By TotalBalance

@princearagorn1: I may be wrong but I don't believe the speed of light was calculated by Hindu wise-men as I doubt they had the optics to accomplish such a feat, not to mention at that time in history people were still debating if light even had a finite speed. As well to mention the first recognized calculation of the speed of light was by a chap named Rømer in the 1600's.

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PrinceAragorn1

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#158  Edited By PrinceAragorn1

@princearagorn1: I may be wrong but I don't believe the speed of light was calculated by Hindu wise-men as I doubt they had the optics to accomplish such a feat, not to mention at that time in history people were still debating if light even had a finite speed. As well to mention the first recognized calculation of the speed of light was by a chap named Rømer in the 1600's.

I know about early attempts to calculate speed of light, the subject always fascinated me. But there are a lot of things you won't believe that are true. They were at least near about equal to us in science. Not just the speed of light, the early doctors, or surgeons, had explained bypass surgery using plant tissues, the ones like kanad gave warnings about atomic fission, and the famous old metal pillar which is still standing after centuries. If you do read up a bit, they were so amazing that it surprises me as much as you are.

What set back the eastern sciences hugely was the burning of Nalanda university and library by Bakthiyar khilji. Thousands of scholars were behaded, and whole library was burned down. The library was so huge that it was said it continued to smoke for a month.

if you do some research on it, them calculating the speed of light wasn't really a big deal considering they are very consistant.

Not just Hindu wise men, there are a lot of things of ancient civilizations we don't know, like how were they able to build the pyramids of egypt so perfectly etc. You should try looking into that, it's really fascinating..

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#159  Edited By TotalBalance

@princearagorn1: Can I ask for some sources for that as I am almost certain after reading up more that they did not calculate the speed of light. There were indeed great ideas on biology, philosophy and etcetera that came out of Nalanda but I simply can't find any way they could calculate c without optics.

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PrinceAragorn1

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@totalbalance: I'm not sure how they calculated myself, but it was something like fourth verse, hymn 50, book 1 of Rigveda. And it was quoted again in early fourteenth century, by a minister of Vijaynagar empire.

And what exactly do you mean by 'without optics'? for a civilisation well versed in many sciences (you do say you read up), supposedly first to use zero, why is it hard to believe they would be good in optics?

Speaking of which, what makes you 'almost certain' that they did not calculate speed of light?

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#161  Edited By TotalBalance

@princearagorn1: A better quote would have been without proper optics, while they had lenses they were no where near the accuracy of what was later used in telescopes by Rømer and other scientists to calculate c through closely observing celestial bodies. And if you ask what makes me so certain that they did not calculate the speed of light it is the lack of any credible historical papers saying so, from the credible academic sources that I have seen Rømer was the first person to provide a number for the speed of light.

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@pooty said:

@consolemaster001: As for the second one do you mean people who aren't muslim or people who don't believe in god alltogether

both please

As for non muslims there are two possibilities:

There are some people who have not been reached by the message of the Prophet of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace) that we must worship the One God alone, associating nothing else with Him. Such people are innocent, and will not be punished no matter what they do. Allah says in surat al-Isra',

"We do not punish until We send a Messenger"

(Quran 17:15).

These include, for example, Christians and others who lived in the period after the spread of the myth of Jesus godhood, until the time of the prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace), who renewed the call to pure monotheism.

Possibility No. 2

A second group of people consists of those who turn away from God's divine message of Islam, rejecting the command to make their worship God's alone; whether because of blindly imitating the religion of their ancestors, or for some other reason. These are people to whom God has sent a prophetic messenger and reached with his message, and to whom he has given hearing and an intellect with which to grasp it but after all this they persist in associating others with Allah, either by actually worshipping another, or by rejecting the laws brought by His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace), which associates their own customs with his prerogative to be worshipped as he directs. Such people have violated God's rights, and have accepted to go to hell, which is precisely what His messengers have warned them of, so they have no excuse:

"Truly, Allah does not forgive that any be associated with Him; but He forgives what is less than that to whomever He wills"

(Koran 4:48).

In either case, Allah's mercy exists, though for non-Muslims unreached by the message, it is a question of divine amnesty for their ignorance, not a confirmation of their religions validity. It is worth knowing the difference between these two things, for one's eternal fate depends on it.

As for atheists:

Let's say that, that atheist is the best person alive. Say he gave to charity, dontated money, never lied, never backstabed anyone, dressed modestly, etc. God is who rewards the good and punishes the bad. For this reason, he who doesn't believe in God, has no claim to any reward from God. He may be doing apparently good deeds; but his good deeds are not based on seeking to do God's will. So they can only get the instrumentally good results that they can naturally have in this world, and not the reward of the other world which can only come from morally good acts.

"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Quran 2:62)

See this is what I don't get, it is completely lacking in altruism or goodness for goodness's sake, If the only reason someone acts "good" is because they believe they will be rewarded by God they are just as selfish as the most sinful and unjust tax collector. Why not be good for the sake of being good, why must everything be for reward from God, are we really such a sad lot that we cannot act in goodness without fear of punishment from god?

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InnerSuperman

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ohhhhhh boy

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PrinceAragorn1

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@princearagorn1: A better quote would have been without proper optics, while they had lenses they were no where near the accuracy of what was later used in telescopes by Rømer and other scientists to calculate c through closely observing celestial bodies. And if you ask what makes me so certain that they did not calculate the speed of light it is the lack of any credible historical papers saying so, from the credible academic sources that I have seen Rømer was the first person to provide a number for the speed of light.

1,90,000 and 1,86,000 are very close, far closer than romer's 1,31,000. I just told you the verse in vedas, and the commentor in early 14th-centhury on it. Vedas are, about the most credible sources about ancient Indian sciences.

I'm not sure what 'credible acadamic sources' you used, but they're due updation, hopefully, one day, they will. Indians are very, very lousy at following these things.. Another example would be use of turmeric. The patent on 'medicinal use of turmeric' was going to be awarded to the Mississippi medical university, and considering the patent authority do their research well, I'd say their sources were very credible as well. But, they do not go researching ancient books of every last civilians, nor do they follow every tradition of every civilization. If the patent was accepted, you'd be telling me right now that these uses were discovered only by that university, because the patent records say so. But, it was challanged by Dr. R. Mashelkar, who proved that turmeric was being used from thousands of years as a medicine, on wound specially in households, and found the proper quotes in the books, finally revoking the patent. (And the attempt was successful). The government had completely ignored the issue though, before he went around yelling about it.

Another example would be rhinoplasty. It was, and is, clearly mentioned in sushrut-samhita, a book written by ancient sage-surgeon Sushrut. He also mentions details on labioplasties and caesarians. But if you search on the inventors of these things, most pages don't even mention him. You might find Detailed pages of some sites, or wiki, if there is a special page. No one has ever followed up on that.

The important thing is, even the patent authority does not do research in every ancient text. I'd say whatever sources they used were more credible than yours, but they can be wrong. There are still so many things that can be revoked, but are not, nothing to blame but laziness. Hopefully there will be more people like Mashelkar, and we will be able to give the ancient scientist credit for what they worked for. Not only Indian, but there are so many scientists in the world that deserve a great amount of respect. or at least an honorable mention. Do look up on details, this thing happens so frequently about ancient scientists that you could take a lifetime just to list them all up. We've to understand that there was absolutely no concept of 'patenting' your research at that time, and knowledge was much more free. That, sadly, made them nearly disappear from pages of history.

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#165  Edited By PrinceAragorn1
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consolemaster001

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Sorry for the late reply, i've been busy lately.

@consolemaster001 said:

Islam has plenty of evidence to backup its claim to be the true religion. In the quran the are plenty of verses talking about scientific facts hundreds of years before they were discovered, including the solar system, reproducing, atoms and even the big bang theory.

Islam is also against discrimination. Islamic leaders in the past (and especially in the ottoman empire) have treated their citizens equally regardless of their race, religion etc.

I am not sure how being scientifically true proves it to be 'the true religion'. I mean, there were Rishis who had explained the atomic structure, and notably, they had calculated the speed of light from accuracy ranging from a few significant digits to two decimal points.. But that doesn't make Vedas the ultimate authority of the world, does it?

I personally never found 'one true religion' very appealing.

You are mainly talking about ottoman empire, right? Because in Indian history, we have a whole lot of things done by the sultans, like breaking temples, killing priests, throwing dead animals in sacred places, and the infamous Jiziya which was a tax heavily paid by most non-muslims? Well, obviously, they did a lot of other diabolic things, too, like giving your father a poison massage, blinding and imprisoning siblings, the stuff I'd rather not talk about, so you have every right to say they were not real Muslims, I am just saying that people of no religion in the world (that I know of) have been pure gold.

Well, to be perfectly clear, I am not in any way against islam, but I was just wondering if you ever thought of these things.

India isn't the only one. There have been some muslim leaders who were unjust. Take for example the racist umayyads, before they're reign nation leaders were elected (yes islam had and still has democracy), but when they came to power they wanted nobody outside of thier family becoming leader so the threw democracy out the window. Also they divided society into four classes

Arab Muslims

Non-Arab Muslims

Non-Muslims

Slaves

They thought that arabs were superior to non arabs.

As for a more recent example look at Esad, who massacres his own people and it caused civil war which devestated the country.

@consolemaster001 said:

@pooty said:

@consolemaster001: As for the second one do you mean people who aren't muslim or people who don't believe in god alltogether

both please

As for non muslims there are two possibilities:

There are some people who have not been reached by the message of the Prophet of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace) that we must worship the One God alone, associating nothing else with Him. Such people are innocent, and will not be punished no matter what they do. Allah says in surat al-Isra',

"We do not punish until We send a Messenger"

(Quran 17:15).

These include, for example, Christians and others who lived in the period after the spread of the myth of Jesus godhood, until the time of the prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace), who renewed the call to pure monotheism.

Possibility No. 2

A second group of people consists of those who turn away from God's divine message of Islam, rejecting the command to make their worship God's alone; whether because of blindly imitating the religion of their ancestors, or for some other reason. These are people to whom God has sent a prophetic messenger and reached with his message, and to whom he has given hearing and an intellect with which to grasp it but after all this they persist in associating others with Allah, either by actually worshipping another, or by rejecting the laws brought by His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace), which associates their own customs with his prerogative to be worshipped as he directs. Such people have violated God's rights, and have accepted to go to hell, which is precisely what His messengers have warned them of, so they have no excuse:

"Truly, Allah does not forgive that any be associated with Him; but He forgives what is less than that to whomever He wills"

(Koran 4:48).

In either case, Allah's mercy exists, though for non-Muslims unreached by the message, it is a question of divine amnesty for their ignorance, not a confirmation of their religions validity. It is worth knowing the difference between these two things, for one's eternal fate depends on it.

As for atheists:

Let's say that, that atheist is the best person alive. Say he gave to charity, dontated money, never lied, never backstabed anyone, dressed modestly, etc. God is who rewards the good and punishes the bad. For this reason, he who doesn't believe in God, has no claim to any reward from God. He may be doing apparently good deeds; but his good deeds are not based on seeking to do God's will. So they can only get the instrumentally good results that they can naturally have in this world, and not the reward of the other world which can only come from morally good acts.

"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Quran 2:62)

See this is what I don't get, it is completely lacking in altruism or goodness for goodness's sake, If the only reason someone acts "good" is because they believe they will be rewarded by God they are just as selfish as the most sinful and unjust tax collector. Why not be good for the sake of being good, why must everything be for reward from God, are we really such a sad lot that we cannot act in goodness without fear of punishment from god?

Firstly, nice avatar ! Where'd you find it ?

Anyways, Allah rewards do gooders and punishes bad people. If someone does a good deed NOT out of the goodness of their heart but for a reward then that is wrong. Now you're saying that religious people do good acts to please god and not to help and please others right ? Well pleasing the people pleases god. If you give to the poor god will be happy because you are aiding poor people.

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consolemaster001

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@princearagorn1: Continued

"Allah commands you to make over trusts (or positions of trust and authority) to those worthy of them." (4:58)

Some other principles are as follows:

"Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything (with your authorities) refer it to Allah and the Messenger" (4:59), i.e. settle the disagreement by means of the Holy Quran and the Holy Prophet's example.
"Obedience (of authority) is due only in good matters", i.e., orders to do wrong must not be obeyed. (Holy Prophet in Bukhari.)

The first head of state of the Muslims after the Holy Prophet, the famous Hazrat Abu Bakr, said in a speech after his election:

"Help me if I am in the right. Correct me if I am in the wrong. Obey me as long as I obey Allah and His Messenger; in case I disobey Allah and His Messenger, I have no right to obedience from you."
"The most excellent jihad is to speak the truth in the face of an unjust ruler." (Holy Prophet in Mishkat.)

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PrinceAragorn1

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Sorry for the late reply, i've been busy lately.

India isn't the only one. There have been some muslim leaders who were unjust.

ok.

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@consolemaster001 said:

Is it safe to come out now ? ok.

I decided to re visit this thread and re read the arguments i had with the other users here. And after doing some research on my own i realised that almost 99% of the things i said regarding homosexuals in islam was false ! My arguments were filled with contradicting and hypocritical statements and more. My most sincere apologies to @mrdecepticonleader and @pooty as i have been dishing out misinformation. I know what you're typing and before you click "post reply" and send a comment which probably reads "Typical uneducated muslim" i'd like to clarify that i am not a scholar nor a teacher, i am just an ordinary muslim trying to preach my religion. You'll notice that i've edited my first post so you can check the link i wrote. If you have any further questions about Islam you can ask me, if you're unsatisfied and unconvinced with my answer then i can send you a much more helpful source.

Thanks for reading- Consolemaster001

No I don't really have any other questions regarding Islam,but thanks anyway.And no my thoughts were no where near that.We all slip we are just human after all.

Oh wait I actually do have a question.What are the actual Islamic views on homosexuality?

The Quran forbids any sexual relationship other than in a marriage between a man and a woman. Many homosexual men and women claim that they are born with their sexual preferences and that they have no choice. Although this point is very much in dispute in the medical world, it has no support in the Quran. Even then, irrespective of the nature of homosexuality, this matter would not affect the laws spelled out clearly in the Quran .

We know that this life is a test. Everyone of us has his/her own test. For example someone may be born blind, but that person is expected to live his/her life according to God's law. Others are born poor, short, tall, weak, missing fingers, having big nose...etc but all of them are expected to follow God's law. Some men or women may never marry in their life, or spend part of their life without a spouse. As per the Quran they still have to live a chaste life and avoid any sexual contacts outside a marriage. They have to suppress their sexual feelings (until marriage) to follow God's law. It is a major test and not an easy one for many. Only those who submit to God will do everything they can to follow His law. They know that their salvation and eternal happiness rests in doing so.

Since God condemns homosexuality, then we have to believe that a man or a woman with homosexual feelings is expected to behave like any other muslim and follows God's laws if he/she truely believes in them. He/she shall resist his/her feelings , maintains abstinence , use all available resources of help including medical, social and behavioral therapies to overcome their behavior and feelings. They should pray to God to help them getting over it and submit to God's law that sees homosexuality as sin. Only those who steadfastly persevere in obeying God's law will they pass their test and confirm their submission to God.

For a person who asks, "why me?" We know God is the Most Merciful and Just (16:90) and He will give each one of us a fair test and a fair chance. He assigns the tests to suite each one of us and we believe that He will never burden any soul beyond its means (23:2).

And We have explained to man in this Qur'an every kind of similitude: yet the grater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude!- Holy Quran 17:89

We have explained in detail in this Qur'an for the benefit of mankind every kind of similitude: but man is in most things contentious. - Holy Quran 18:54

We have put forth for men in this Qur'an every kind of Parable in order that they may receive admonition. - Holy Quran 39:27

THANKS FOR READING, YOU CAN FIND MORE INFORMATION IN THE LINK I WROTE.

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@mrdecepticonleader said:

@consolemaster001 said:

Is it safe to come out now ? ok.

I decided to re visit this thread and re read the arguments i had with the other users here. And after doing some research on my own i realised that almost 99% of the things i said regarding homosexuals in islam was false ! My arguments were filled with contradicting and hypocritical statements and more. My most sincere apologies to @mrdecepticonleader and @pooty as i have been dishing out misinformation. I know what you're typing and before you click "post reply" and send a comment which probably reads "Typical uneducated muslim" i'd like to clarify that i am not a scholar nor a teacher, i am just an ordinary muslim trying to preach my religion. You'll notice that i've edited my first post so you can check the link i wrote. If you have any further questions about Islam you can ask me, if you're unsatisfied and unconvinced with my answer then i can send you a much more helpful source.

Thanks for reading- Consolemaster001

No I don't really have any other questions regarding Islam,but thanks anyway.And no my thoughts were no where near that.We all slip we are just human after all.

Oh wait I actually do have a question.What are the actual Islamic views on homosexuality?

The Quran forbids any sexual relationship other than in a marriage between a man and a woman. Many homosexual men and women claim that they are born with their sexual preferences and that they have no choice. Although this point is very much in dispute in the medical world, it has no support in the Quran. Even then, irrespective of the nature of homosexuality, this matter would not affect the laws spelled out clearly in the Quran .

We know that this life is a test. Everyone of us has his/her own test. For example someone may be born blind, but that person is expected to live his/her life according to God's law. Others are born poor, short, tall, weak, missing fingers, having big nose...etc but all of them are expected to follow God's law. Some men or women may never marry in their life, or spend part of their life without a spouse. As per the Quran they still have to live a chaste life and avoid any sexual contacts outside a marriage. They have to suppress their sexual feelings (until marriage) to follow God's law. It is a major test and not an easy one for many. Only those who submit to God will do everything they can to follow His law. They know that their salvation and eternal happiness rests in doing so.

Since God condemns homosexuality, then we have to believe that a man or a woman with homosexual feelings is expected to behave like any other muslim and follows God's laws if he/she truely believes in them. He/she shall resist his/her feelings , maintains abstinence , use all available resources of help including medical, social and behavioral therapies to overcome their behavior and feelings. They should pray to God to help them getting over it and submit to God's law that sees homosexuality as sin. Only those who steadfastly persevere in obeying God's law will they pass their test and confirm their submission to God.

For a person who asks, "why me?" We know God is the Most Merciful and Just (16:90) and He will give each one of us a fair test and a fair chance. He assigns the tests to suite each one of us and we believe that He will never burden any soul beyond its means (23:2).

And We have explained to man in this Qur'an every kind of similitude: yet the grater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude!- Holy Quran 17:89

We have explained in detail in this Qur'an for the benefit of mankind every kind of similitude: but man is in most things contentious. - Holy Quran 18:54

We have put forth for men in this Qur'an every kind of Parable in order that they may receive admonition. - Holy Quran 39:27

THANKS FOR READING, YOU CAN FIND MORE INFORMATION IN THE LINK I WROTE.

Well homosexuality is natural,that is fact.Take a look outside of your qur'an for the evidence.

I mean I really do wonder why people subscribe to Islam who are fortunate enough to live in a country where it is not mandatory.

But eh thanks I guess.I knew alot of the attitudes towards homosexuality regarding Islam.

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#171  Edited By TotalBalance

@consolemaster001: The avatar is just a picture of Superman by Alex Ross, if you Google image ``Superman Alex Ross`` you should be able to find it.

The medical world may still be debating as to what exactly causes homosexual behavior but it is commonly agreed it is not very little if at all choice based and that there are other factors that cause people to be gay. I myself highly doubt someone would just decide they would like to be gay one day given how much persecution they know they would face.

@princearagorn1: Okay, after even further digging I have found that you may have a point, at the moment though the scientific community still says otherwise, however if the texts are authentic then it is only a short while until they are funneled through the necessary academic channels and recognized for what they are. Until then I will still say that Rømer was the first to calculate the speed of light. However when it becomes scientifically validated I will happily say that early Hindus calculated the speed of light.

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#173  Edited By lykopis

@consolemaster001 said:

@Aiden Cross: Oh that

Women in islam can be a tricky subject. One person says one thing and one person says another. Here's the right one.

In the eyes of god women and men are created equal.

I waste not the labour of any that labours among you, be you male or female ‑the one of you is from the other ....(3:195)

Men and women who have surrendered (unto Allah), believing men and be­lieving women, obedient men and obedient women, truthful men arid truthful women, enduring men and enduring women, humble men and humble women, men and women who give in charity, men who fast and women who fast, men and women who guard their private parts, men and women who remember God much, for them God has prepared forgiveness and a mighty re ward. (33:35)

O believers, let not any people scoff at another people who may 'be better than they; neither let women scoff at women who may be better than they. And find not fault with one another, neither revile one another by nick­names .... (49:11)

They (women) are a vestment for you, and you (men) are a vestment for them ....(2:187)

And We have charged man concerning his parents‑his mother bore him in weakness upon weakness, and his weaning was in two years‑be thankful to Me and to your parents ....(31:14)

It tells you to be thankful to your parents especially to your mother.

The fornicatress and the fornicator‑scourge each one of them a hundred stripes, and in the matter of God's religion, let not tenderness for them seize you if you believe in God and the Last Day ....(24:2)

The verse above states that women and men get the same punishment for fornication. It also tells you that if you believe in god and armageddon, don't be tricked by seduction (from both men and women)

Other verses in the Quran independently mention woman's rights, occasionally ordaining men to preserve those limits. At times the attitude of the pre‑Islamic culture in regard to women is criticized. For example, a verse condemns the practice of slaying girl‑infants in the words:

And when the buried infant shall be askedfor what sin she was slain. (81:8‑9)

In pre islamic arabia. Infant girls were buried alive for "not being male" when islam came along that act was criminalised and whoever did it would be put to death.(after it was criminalised)

Now here's a more controversial issue: DOMESTIC ABUSE

Unfortunantley in islamic countries today this is a huge issue.

Let me clarify this first: Islam is perfect, muslims are not.

This usually comes from not accepting islam as a whole. Instead they mix in their traditional views and mess everything up ! That's why afghanistan is so effed up !

The nobler among you in the sight of God is the more righteous among you.” (Quran, 49:13)

http://www.whyislam.org/social-values-in-islam/islam-domestic-violence/

CONCLUSION

To (finally) answer your question, yes islamic countries were the first to treat women equally. Unfortunantely some islamic countries today are ignorant.

Hi. Jumping in here a bit late but I was hoping to maybe get your ideas about what is also found in the Qur'an as it relates to women:

"Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please." Qur'an 2:223 - The Cow

That doesn't sound good. Pretty much says a man can have sex with women when he wants to. Interesting to note this is found in the portion of the Qur'an titled "The Cow."

"Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses..." Qur'an 2:282 - The Cow

A woman's testimony is considered to be half the worth of a man's.

"Women shall with justice have rights similar to those exercised against them, although men have a status above women." Qur'an 2:228 - The Cow

Again, men specifically pointed out to be superior to women.

"You shall not wed pagan women, unless they embrace the Faith. A believing slave-girl is better than an idolatress, although she may please you. Nor shall you wed idolaters, unless they embrace the Faith." Qur'an 2:221 - The Cow

It explicitly says a man may not marry a woman who is not a Muslim and to further illustrate this, it instructs a man to marry a Muslim slave-girl (which is the lowest status of a human being.)

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them." Qur'an 4:34 - Women

The above speaks for itself.

"A male shall inherit twice as much as a female." Qur'an 4:11 - Women

Again, a man is worth double a woman.

"If you fear that you cannot treat (orphan girls) with fairness, then you may marry other women who seem good to you: two, three, or four of them. But if you fear that you cannot maintain equality among them, marry one only or any slave-girl you may own." Qur'an 4:3 - Women

A man is allowed to marry up to four wives. The rest is subject to interpretation but as I see it, it instructs a man to marry only one woman if he cannot keep multiple wives in equal footing with each other. Marrying another three who are slave-girls means he doesn't have to treat them equal. The orphan girl part is troubling -- was it expected to marry off orphan girls since they have no male family to protect/own them?

"(Forbidden to you are) married women, except those whom you own as slaves." Qur'an 4:24 - Women

This is particularly interesting. So a man cannot have relations with married women, but being with female slaves is allowed.

"If you are in doubt concerning those of your wives who have ceased menstruating, know that their waiting period shall be three months. The same shall apply to those [of your wives] who have not yet menstruated." Qur'an 65:4 - Divorce

This is especially concerning as the second sentence directly deals with child brides. Clearly, not only is marrying a child allowed, so is participating in sexual relations with them since the above is dealing with a wife to whom you suspect may have had sex with another man.

"Enjoin believing women to turn their eyes away from temptation and to preserve their chastity; not to display their adornments (except such as are normally revealed); to draw their veils over their bosoms and not to display their finery except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their step-sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women-servants, and their slave-girls; male attendants lacking in natural vigour, and children who have no carnal knowledge of women. And let them not stamp their feet when walking so as to reveal their hidden trinkets." Qur'an 24:31 - Light

"Wives of the Prophet, you are not like other women. If you fear God, do not be too complaisant in your speech, lest the lecherous-hearted should lust after you. Show discretion in what you say. Stay in your homes and do not display your finery as women used to in the days of ignorance." Qur'an 33:32-3 (The "days of ignorance" refer to pre-Islamic times.)

The above two passages are very clear in restricting free movement for women. It very specifically instructs them to hide themselves from men who are not considered a relative - making it their responsibility should a man find them attractive by not covering themselves. They are to stay in their homes, hidden away from society.

I am not pointing this out to you to counter what you have shared already but these passages are in the Qu'ran whereas the ones you shared are vague and when shown outside of what I have shared, gives the impression women are treated equally. You mentioned "traditionalists" are the ones who are not true Muslims when they treat women less than a man but they are following the Qua'ran when they do. So my confusion is genuine.

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@lykopis:

"Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please." Qur'an 2:223 - The Cow

"That doesn't sound good. Pretty much says a man can have sex with women when he wants to." And the wife can have sex with her husband anytime she wants as well.

"Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses..." Qur'an 2:282 - The Cow

It is not true that two female witnesses are always considered as equal to only one male witness. It is true only in certain cases. There are about five verses in the Qur’an that mention witnesses, without specifying male or female. There is only one verse in the Qur’an, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. Which is the one you posted above. This is the longest verse in the Qur’an and deals with financial transactions.

"Women shall with justice have rights similar to those exercised against them, although men have a status above women." Qur'an 2:228 - The Cow

He gave the men a greater degree of responsibility over the women than that of women over men. It follows that the rights owned to the wife are unnegotiable, whereas the husband has to give up certain rights. This is not a feminist reading but the actual explanation of Ibn `Abbas (companion of the prophet) according to al-Tabari in his Tafsir, and the latter preferred it over all other commentaries of that verse(Al-Tabari said the best explanation is that of Ibn `Abbas).

"You shall not wed pagan women, unless they embrace the Faith. A believing slave-girl is better than an idolatress, although she may please you. Nor shall you wed idolaters, unless they embrace the Faith." Qur'an 2:221 - The Cow

Men can only marry Muslims, Jews, Christians.

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them." Qur'an 4:34 - Women

Usually this is translated to: "BEAT THE LIVING SH*T OUT OF THOSE DISLOYAL INFERIOR SUB-HUMANS WE CALL WOMEN"-Eeeeeevil Book of terrorsim 4:34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp8t37MuLm0 <------ I think this'll be helpfull

"A male shall inherit twice as much as a female." Qur'an 4:11 - Women

"With great power, there must also come great responsibility."

I'll get back to this one later.

"If you fear that you cannot treat (orphan girls) with fairness, then you may marry other women who seem good to you: two, three, or four of them. But if you fear that you cannot maintain equality among them, marry one only or any slave-girl you may own."Qur'an 4:3 - Women

" Marrying another three who are slave-girls means he doesn't have to treat them equal." Of course not.

"The orphan girl part is troubling -- was it expected to marry off orphan girls since they have no male family to protect/own them?" Pretty much.

"(Forbidden to you are) married women, except those whom you own as slaves." Qur'an 4:24 - Women

It is still some sort of marriage, you still aren't forcing them.

"If you are in doubt concerning those of your wives who have ceased menstruating, know that their waiting period shall be three months. The same shall apply to those [of your wives] who have not yet menstruated." Qur'an 65:4 - Divorce

Puberty is determined to have been reached in different ways since it has 'signs'. Menstruation is one sign but not the only sign. If a girl is physically ready for intercourse but has not menstruated, then she can have intercourse if it is not harmful to her. This is what the verse means according to what I have read. Even 'Modern medicine' does not consider menstruation as the only sign of puberty. And often even after the 'first menses' the periods are not regular initially and occurs with long gaps after many months. So young girls who already attained puberty might not have periods regularly.

"Enjoin believing women to turn their eyes away from temptation and to preserve their chastity; not to display their adornments (except such as are normally revealed); to draw their veils over their bosoms and not to display their finery except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their step-sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women-servants, and their slave-girls; male attendants lacking in natural vigour, and children who have no carnal knowledge of women. And let them not stamp their feet when walking so as to reveal their hidden trinkets." Qur'an 24:31 - Light

"Wives of the Prophet, you are not like other women. If you fear God, do not be too complaisant in your speech, lest the lecherous-hearted should lust after you. Show discretion in what you say. Stay in your homes and do not display your finery as women used to in the days of ignorance." Qur'an 33:32-3 (The "days of ignorance" refer to pre-Islamic times.)

I don't have an answer fo that however i have found this link: http://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/lowering_gaze.html

"You mentioned "traditionalists" are the ones who are not true Muslims when they treat women less than a man but they are following the Qua'ran when they do. So my confusion is genuine."

Some traditions vary.

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#175  Edited By lykopis

@consolemaster001 said:

@lykopis:

"Women are your fields: go, then, into your fields whence you please." Qur'an 2:223 - The Cow

And the wife can have sex with her husband anytime she wants as well.

So you are saying she can rape her husband as well? Where is the verse where it states men are their plows, go grab and split your earth as you please?

@consolemaster001 said:

"Call in two male witnesses from among you, but if two men cannot be found, then one man and two women whom you judge fit to act as witnesses..." Qur'an 2:282 - The Cow

It is not true that two female witnesses are always considered as equal to only one male witness. It is true only in certain cases. There are about five verses in the Qur’an that mention witnesses, without specifying male or female. There is only one verse in the Qur’an, that says two female witnesses are equal to one male witness. Which is the one you posted above. This is the longest verse in the Qur’an and deals with financial transactions.

Which cases then? Only financial and even then, this is considered fair? Furthermore, where does it state in the Qur'an men are considered half the worth of a woman (to make it fair)? The Qur'an made a distinction here. Why? It is reasonable to infer the other verses include both genders when it doesn't in this instance?

@consolemaster001 said:

"Women shall with justice have rights similar to those exercised against them, although men have a status above women." Qur'an 2:228 - The Cow

He gave the men a greater degree of responsibility over the women than that of women over men. It follows that the rights owned to the wife are unnegotiable, whereas the husband has to give up certain rights. This is not a feminist reading but the actual explanation of Ibn `Abbas (companion of the prophet) according to al-Tabari in his Tafsir, and the latter preferred it over all other commentaries of that verse(Al-Tabari said the best explanation is that of Ibn `Abbas).

It's pretty clear -- men have a status above women. Plus, why do men have a greater degree of responsibility at all over women and further to that, what are the rights given to women which have been given up by men? Where is the equality you professed Islam provided women?

@consolemaster001 said:

"You shall not wed pagan women, unless they embrace the Faith. A believing slave-girl is better than an idolatress, although she may please you. Nor shall you wed idolaters, unless they embrace the Faith." Qur'an 2:221 - The Cow

Men can only marry Muslims, Jews, Christians.

And women can marry only the same, including a believing slave-man as long as he embraces the Faith? There would be nothing wrong with that according to the Qur'an?

@consolemaster001 said:

@lykopis:

"Men have authority over women because God has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient. They guard their unseen parts because God has guarded them. As for those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and forsake them in beds apart, and beat them." Qur'an 4:34 - Women

Usually this is translated to: "BEAT THE LIVING SH*T OUT OF THOSE DISLOYAL INFERIOR SUB-HUMANS WE CALL WOMEN"-Eeeeeevil Book of terrorsim 4:34

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp8t37MuLm0

<------ I think this'll be helpfull

I watched. He did nothing to refute what I wrote. What he said is a righteous woman would be obedient so she would not need to be beaten. So, when she doesn't do what her husband wants, then she should get beaten. If she yells at him and he says don't, then he can hit them. They only way she can avoid getting beaten is to become obedient again. It was helpful in that it was worse than I thought. OBEDIENCE TO A LAW. Constantly and repeatedly said this. As long as she is obedient to her husband, which the Qur'an has stated is a law -- then she is good to go. So -- stay home, cover yourselves, don't speak to anyone who isn't a family member, keep your front door locked and never turn your husband away when he wants sex. Like an obedient Muslim wife.

He says it is not equal between a man and woman, but it's fair. This is according to the Qur'an. He re-iterates it over and over again. There is no equal rights between a man a a woman, there will never be. But it's fair. I guess when you are considered inferior, then it's only fair you be treated as such.

There is no defending this into meaning something other than what it says. At all. A husband might not want to beat his wife -- he might punish her in others ways like withholding sex -- but he is allowed to and is encouraged to beat her according to the Qur'an. As a good and righteous Muslim man.

I have no idea why you brought up terrorism. Or the word evil. I never wrote either word in my earlier posts

@consolemaster001 said:

@lykopis:

"A male shall inherit twice as much as a female." Qur'an 4:11 - Women

With great power, there must also come great responsibility.

I'll get back to this one later.

I am sure women would have been and are still most happy to take on "great responsibility" to have equal inheritance.

@consolemaster001 said:

@lykopis:

"If you fear that you cannot treat (orphan girls) with fairness, then you may marry other women who seem good to you: two, three, or four of them. But if you fear that you cannot maintain equality among them, marry one only or any slave-girl you may own."Qur'an 4:3 - Women

" Marrying another three who are slave-girls means he doesn't have to treat them equal."

Of course not.

You have to expand a bit more here, I don't want to misunderstand you. Are you saying it is right to treat slaves less than a wife? That a Muslim slave-girl is not equal to a "free" Muslim woman?

@consolemaster001 said:

@lykopis:

"The orphan girl part is troubling -- was it expected to marry off orphan girls since they have no male family to protect/own them?"

Pretty much.

That's horrible.

@consolemaster001 said:

@lykopis:

"(Forbidden to you are) married women, except those whom you own as slaves." Qur'an 4:24 - Women

It is still some sort of marriage, you still aren't forcing them.

No -- it's not. You are allowed to have sex with your slave-girls. Not married women. That is not a sort of marriage at all. Even if you are to marry a slave-girl, she is not equal to your other wives so you don't have to treat her equal. Does she have a choice in marrying you? I would suspect not since she is a slave. Qur'an is pretty clear on its views about slavery then.

@consolemaster001 said:

@lykopis:

"If you are in doubt concerning those of your wives who have ceased menstruating, know that their waiting period shall be three months. The same shall apply to those [of your wives] who have not yet menstruated." Qur'an 65:4 - Divorce

Puberty is determined to have been reached in different ways since it has 'signs'. Menstruation is one sign but not the only sign. If a girl is physically ready for intercourse but has not menstruated, then she can have intercourse if it is not harmful to her. This is what the verse means according to what I have read. Even 'Modern medicine' does not consider menstruation as the only sign of puberty. And often even after the 'first menses' the periods are not regular initially and occurs with long gaps after many months. So young girls who already attained puberty might not have periods regularly.

I can't even...you must be joking. You have to be. So what you are saying, is that if an eight-year old girl gets her period, she could be considered physically ready for intercourse? Since that means she is able to get pregnant, therefor should be married asap. Even worse -- that you would quantify this position with ideas as to what is considered mature it terms of being able to have intercourse is flat out horrifying. Please, by all means, tell me what these "signs" of maturity which would indicate a girl is ready for sexual intercourse?

The Qur'an condones pedophilia by allowing the rape of female children under the guise of it being proper through marriage. This is a very, very big problem for me. I can't imagine what happens to young slave-girls who don't have this same "protection."

@consolemaster001 said:

@lykopis:

"Enjoin believing women to turn their eyes away from temptation and to preserve their chastity; not to display their adornments (except such as are normally revealed); to draw their veils over their bosoms and not to display their finery except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their step-sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women-servants, and their slave-girls; male attendants lacking in natural vigour, and children who have no carnal knowledge of women. And let them not stamp their feet when walking so as to reveal their hidden trinkets." Qur'an 24:31 - Light

"Wives of the Prophet, you are not like other women. If you fear God, do not be too complaisant in your speech, lest the lecherous-hearted should lust after you. Show discretion in what you say. Stay in your homes and do not display your finery as women used to in the days of ignorance." Qur'an 33:32-3 (The "days of ignorance" refer to pre-Islamic times.)

I don't have an answer fo that however i have found this link: http://www.quranicpath.com/misconceptions/lowering_gaze.html

"You mentioned "traditionalists" are the ones who are not true Muslims when they treat women less than a man but they are following the Qua'ran when they do. So my confusion is genuine."

Some traditions vary.

I read your link -- it did nothing to address my points. You state traditions vary but you haven't demonstrated traditions which are following the Qur'an incorrectly as you stated that are earlier in this thread. What are the traditions being practiced today you find fault with in terms of living as a Muslim according to the Qur'an? I have, can and will read all the links you provide, but so far, none have been able to refute what my understanding of the verses I provided are. At all.

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@lykopis: Either way, i'm no scholar nor a teacher. My answers are based on what i've read and learned.

There are other sources that you could benefit from :

http://www.introductiontoislam.org/index2.shtml

http://www.islam-guide.com/

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/intro_islam.htm

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/links.html

I got the feeling that you want to believe that islam is an evil religion that belittles women. If the oppressors of women today are following the quran, then are the muslims who treat women with fairness are going to hell ? Why are we talking about the oppression of women in the islamic world all the time ? What about the treatment of women in the west ?

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@lykopis: Either way, i'm no scholar nor a teacher. My answers are based on what i've read and learned.

There are other sources that you could benefit from :

http://www.introductiontoislam.org/index2.shtml

http://www.islam-guide.com/

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/intro_islam.htm

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/links.html

I got the feeling that you want to believe that islam is an evil religion that belittles women. If the oppressors of women today are following the quran, then are the muslims who treat women with fairness are going to hell ? Why are we talking about the oppression of women in the islamic world all the time ? What about the treatment of women in the west ?

Its not just the treatment of women I have a problem with.It is how it treats other people in general such as homosexuals and unbelievers,and how it is viewed that you have to respect Islam as if it is sacred even if you don't believe and disagree with it .

And I am sure people would agree with me on that as well.But are you not disgusted how it talks about women in the quran as well?

Treatment of women in the west is really much better than what is like in Islamic countries,treatment of people in general is better.Women are seen as equals to men.Yes of course there is still sexism but it applies to both genders.

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@consolemaster001 said:

@lykopis: Either way, i'm no scholar nor a teacher. My answers are based on what i've read and learned.

There are other sources that you could benefit from :

http://www.introductiontoislam.org/index2.shtml

http://www.islam-guide.com/

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/intro_islam.htm

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/links.html

I got the feeling that you want to believe that islam is an evil religion that belittles women. If the oppressors of women today are following the quran, then are the muslims who treat women with fairness are going to hell ? Why are we talking about the oppression of women in the islamic world all the time ? What about the treatment of women in the west ?

Its not just the treatment of women I have a problem with.It is how it treats other people in general such as homosexuals and unbelievers,and how it is viewed that you have to respect Islam as if it is sacred even if you don't believe and disagree with it .

And I am sure people would agree with me on that as well.But are you not disgusted how it talks about women in the quran as well?

Treatment of women in the west is really much better than what is like in Islamic countries,treatment of people in general is better.Women are seen as equals to men.Yes of course there is still sexism but it applies to both genders.

I was talking about how women are treated like sex objects in the west.

How can you say that people are treated worse in islamic countries when you have never been to one ? (i'm assuming you haven't)

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@mrdecepticonleader said:

@consolemaster001 said:

@lykopis: Either way, i'm no scholar nor a teacher. My answers are based on what i've read and learned.

There are other sources that you could benefit from :

http://www.introductiontoislam.org/index2.shtml

http://www.islam-guide.com/

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/intro_islam.htm

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/links.html

I got the feeling that you want to believe that islam is an evil religion that belittles women. If the oppressors of women today are following the quran, then are the muslims who treat women with fairness are going to hell ? Why are we talking about the oppression of women in the islamic world all the time ? What about the treatment of women in the west ?

Its not just the treatment of women I have a problem with.It is how it treats other people in general such as homosexuals and unbelievers,and how it is viewed that you have to respect Islam as if it is sacred even if you don't believe and disagree with it .

And I am sure people would agree with me on that as well.But are you not disgusted how it talks about women in the quran as well?

Treatment of women in the west is really much better than what is like in Islamic countries,treatment of people in general is better.Women are seen as equals to men.Yes of course there is still sexism but it applies to both genders.

I was talking about how women are treated like sex objects in the west.

How can you say that people are treated worse in islamic countries when you have never been to one ? (i'm assuming you haven't)

Right you didn't mention that.Well men and women can both be treated that way.

Well the fact that in certain countries you can be executed for being an atheist or a non muslim. That is an example of how it is worse.

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@mrdecepticonleader: There are countries where you can be executed for being atheist unfourtanently. Not too sure on being non muslim.

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@mrdecepticonleader: There are countries where you can be executed for being atheist unfourtanently. Not too sure on being non muslim.

Well I know christians are also executed for not being muslims in those counties as well.

There are seven countries that do this Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Iran,Sudan,Afghanistan ,West African state of Mauritania and Maldives.Islam is the majority religion of these,they are Islamic countries.

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confirukia

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this thread should be locked , it's becoming disrecpectful. sorry potty this is what i think.

you have a point

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@consolemaster001 said:

@mrdecepticonleader: There are countries where you can be executed for being atheist unfourtanently. Not too sure on being non muslim.

Well I know christians are also executed for not being muslims in those counties as well.

There are seven countries that do this Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Iran,Sudan,Afghanistan ,West African state of Mauritania and Maldives.Islam is the majority religion of these,they are Islamic countries.

I'm sorry, i couldn't find anything related to that matter. I do know for a fact that atheists are executed. But not non muslims. If you could find a news article or something simmilar that'd be helpful. Either way islam condems the discrimination and killing of non muslims:

"Allah does not forbid you concerning those people who do not fight you because of your religion, nor expel you from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly.. . . Allah forbids you only concerning those people who fight you for your religion, and drive you from your homes and help others to expel you, that you make friends of them." (60: 8,9)
"Whatever good they (people of other religions) do, they will not be denied it (by Allah), and Allah knows who the righteous are." (3:115)
"O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and do not let the hatred of a people incite you not to act with justice. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty." (5:8)
"Call (others) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the best manner." (16:125)
"Argue not with the people of the Book (Jews, Christians, and other people having scriptures) except by the best (means), save those of them who act unjustly. But say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him we submit." (29:46)

A companion of the Holy Prophet relates:

"A funeral procession passed by the Holy Prophet, and he stood up for it. People said to him: It was the funeral of a Jew. He said: Was it not a human life?" (Report in Bukhari.)
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@mrdecepticonleader said:

@consolemaster001 said:

@mrdecepticonleader: There are countries where you can be executed for being atheist unfourtanently. Not too sure on being non muslim.

Well I know christians are also executed for not being muslims in those counties as well.

There are seven countries that do this Pakistan,Saudi Arabia,Iran,Sudan,Afghanistan ,West African state of Mauritania and Maldives.Islam is the majority religion of these,they are Islamic countries.

I'm sorry, i couldn't find anything related to that matter. I do know for a fact that atheists are executed. But not non muslims. If you could find a news article or something simmilar that'd be helpful. Either way islam condems the discrimination and killing of non muslims:

"Allah does not forbid you concerning those people who do not fight you because of your religion, nor expel you from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly.. . . Allah forbids you only concerning those people who fight you for your religion, and drive you from your homes and help others to expel you, that you make friends of them." (60: 8,9)
"Whatever good they (people of other religions) do, they will not be denied it (by Allah), and Allah knows who the righteous are." (3:115)
"O you who believe, be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice; and do not let the hatred of a people incite you not to act with justice. Be just; that is nearer to observance of duty." (5:8)
"Call (others) to the way of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in the best manner." (16:125)
"Argue not with the people of the Book (Jews, Christians, and other people having scriptures) except by the best (means), save those of them who act unjustly. But say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him we submit." (29:46)

A companion of the Holy Prophet relates:

"A funeral procession passed by the Holy Prophet, and he stood up for it. People said to him: It was the funeral of a Jew. He said: Was it not a human life?" (Report in Bukhari.)

Weather it does or not it still happens in those countries.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2012/12/11/the-countries-where-they-kill-you-for-being-an-atheist/

This is the link

Some more info.

According to popular interpretations of Islam, Muslims are not free to change religion or become an atheist: denying Islam and thus becoming an apostate is traditionally punished by death in men and by life imprisonment in women. The death penalty for apostasy is apparent in a range of Islamic states including: Iran Egypt, Pakistan, Somalia, United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Yemen. and Saudi Arabia, although there have been no recently reported executions in Saudi Arabia. While a death sentence is rare, it is common for atheists to be charged with blasphemy or inciting hatred. New "Arab Spring" regimes in Tunisia and Egypt have jailed several outspoken atheists.

In Iran, atheists do not have any recognized legal status, and must declare that they are Muslim, Christian, Jewish or Zoroastrian, in order to claim some legal rights, including applying for entrance to university, or becoming a lawyer. Similarly, Jordan requires atheists to associate themselves with a recognized religion for official identification purposes, and atheists in Indonesia experience official discrimination in the context of registration of births and marriages, and the issuance of identity cards. In Egypt, intellectuals suspected of holding atheistic beliefs have been prosecuted by judicial and religious authorities. Novelist Alaa Hamad was convicted of publishing a book that contained atheistic ideas and apostasy that were considered to threaten national unity and social peace.

And yeah Iran is by a large majority Islamic. They don't have any recognized legal rights.

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@mrdecepticonleader: So atheists don't have any legal rights unless the associate themselves with a reiligion ?

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It is interesting to see a faith other than Christianity get taken to task. I am heartened by the "equal opportunity" which does indeed exist in places on CV.

I have to give @consolemaster001 credit for participating and attempting to share ideas from Islam which is an extremely misunderstood faith IMHO.

I really don't understand however how this thread differs from the religion thread other than giving non-Christian faiths (and their adherents) the opportunity to have their belief systems tested.

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@mrdecepticonleader: There are countries where you can be executed for being atheist unfourtanently. Not too sure on being non muslim.

Various cases of Moslem governments sanctioning and/or allowing Moslems to attack non-Moslems.

Pakistan Riots

Egyptian Attacks

Libyan Torture

Often times to keep in good favor with the western powers the governments themselves won't directly persecute minority religions as this looks bad, however they quite often turn a blind eye to the actions of their Moslem citizens.

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Right you didn't mention that.Well men and women can both be treated that way.

Well the fact that in certain countries you can be executed for being an atheist or a non muslim. That is an example of how it is worse.

Well, you can't blame all muslims for some extremists.. There are so many muslims who are peaceful as well, I've many friends whose parents are perfectly peaceful. As I already said, many religious people have tortured people into converting, but that doesn't classify religion as bad. Atheism is new, who knows after some decades, some atheists will execute people for believing in God (Just saiyan) like people were once executed for believing in magic. Many atheists are considered extremely annoying, as annoying as non-stop-preachers, I'm sure you have had an encounter,But that still doesn't mean that atheism is bad. Anything taken to the extreme can be bad..

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@mrdecepticonleader said:

Right you didn't mention that.Well men and women can both be treated that way.

Well the fact that in certain countries you can be executed for being an atheist or a non muslim. That is an example of how it is worse.

Well, you can't blame all muslims for some extremists.. There are so many muslims who are peaceful as well, I've many friends whose parents are perfectly peaceful. As I already said, many religious people have tortured people into converting, but that doesn't classify religion as bad. Atheism is new, who knows after some decades, some atheists will execute people for believing in God (Just saiyan) like people were once executed for believing in magic. Many atheists are considered extremely annoying, as annoying as non-stop-preachers, I'm sure you have had an encounter,But that still doesn't mean that atheism is bad. Anything taken to the extreme can be bad..

You seem to be talking about something unrelated to what I have being talking about.I brought up the fact that there are countries where you can be executed and have your rights taken away for being an atheist.And in that instance that isn't just a few extremists we are talking about,its the law in those countries implemented by those governments.That isn't a few extremists.I never said that all muslims are not peaceful I never even implied that.Atheism is new? No its not,people have being atheists for centuries.It is just that now it is more recognized,its still views as taboo but its getting better.And the thing about atheism is that it is simply a disbelief in god,that is it,there is no rules,regulations,or dogma.That is it.Unlike religion that has all this baggage.

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INLIFE

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Ah yes, religions and atheism, the reasons I want to leave this planet.

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#194  Edited By lykopis

@consolemaster001 said:

@lykopis: Either way, i'm no scholar nor a teacher. My answers are based on what i've read and learned.

There are other sources that you could benefit from :

http://www.introductiontoislam.org/index2.shtml

http://www.islam-guide.com/

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/intro_islam.htm

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/links.html

I got the feeling that you want to believe that islam is an evil religion that belittles women. If the oppressors of women today are following the quran, then are the muslims who treat women with fairness are going to hell ? Why are we talking about the oppression of women in the islamic world all the time ? What about the treatment of women in the west ?

You haven't addressed anything I have brought up -- at all. It is curious however you take my questions and sincere confusion as me wanting to believe Islam is an "evil" religion that belittles women. You were the one who stated earlier in this thread that Islam not only treated women as equal to men, but was also the first religion to do so. Neither claim is correct as it turns out -- I brought up verses from the Qur'an that counter them and you respond back with websites and even a youtube video which turns out to disprove your claims further.

If you take me pointing out these inconsistencies and putting forth information you then choose to ignore -- that is entirely on you.

So with the above in mind, going on with your statement/question of " If the oppressors of women today are following the quran, then are the muslims who treat women with fairness are going to hell? " That is for you to answer, not me. I am only going by the information to be found in your Qur'an -- I am only going by the links you gave me -- and you respond with, "Either way, i'm no scholar nor a teacher. My answers are based on what i've read and learned." I am neither a scholar or teacher -- I am a life-long student. This is what I have learned about Islam -- this is what your texts have stated and this is what your religious leaders have put forth as what being a righteous Muslim is. I would ask you not attempt to paint me as someone with an agenda -- I don't have one outside of a genuine curiosity about your religion.

As for oppression of women "in the west", how is this relevant to this thread? I am bringing up the topic of how women is viewed, treated and considered through the Qur'an. This isn't a competition over who treats who worse -- if this is a topic you want discussed, you are free to create another thread to address that.

Again, I looked into your links -- thank you. Again, they all did nothing to uphold your representation of how Islam views women in terms of the Qur'an. This is what I am discussing, nothing else.

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@consolemaster001: Are you in a mostly Muslim country? If you are not, why did you choose Islam over Christianity? thanks

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Islam, from one perspective:

Loading Video...

And from another point-of-view:

Loading Video...

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as an historian in the making Im quite appalled with the stuff people have been claiming here. and specially with the idea that people have about Islam and it's scriptures...

btw on the initial post, I'm not completelly sure but Islam = peace; Muslim = the one who submites to God

Al- Lah - God; comes from the name of the pagan ruler of gods in the arabic pantheon (in the area of present day Meccah)

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@lykopis: I only said i "had a feeling" i wasn't trying to paint you with an agenda or anything absurd like that, if you say you aren't then you aren't. Also i'd appreciate if everyone would say "The Qur'an" instead of "your Qur'an" it just comes off as offensive, thank you. Though if you want to say "your quran" then ok.

Back to lykopis,i have made a huuuuuuuuuuuge mistake as in Islam women and men are not equal..period. Also i'd like to adress other issues you mentioned such as: Slavery, pedophilia etc.

THE DIFFERENCE OF MEN AND WOMEN

Firstly:

This word – equality – which many thinkers in both the east and the west advocate in various fields of life is a word which is based on deviation and a lack of understanding, especially when the speaker attributes this idea of equality to the Qur’aan and to Islam.

One of the things that people misunderstand is when they say that “Islam is the religion of equality”. What they should say is that Islam is the religion of justice.

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said:

“Here we should note that there are some people who speak of equality instead of justice, and this is a mistake. We should not say equality, because equality implies no differentiation between the two. Because of this unjust call for equality, they started to ask, what is the difference between male and female?’ So they made males and females the same, and then the communists said, ‘What difference is there between ruler and subject? No one has any authority over anyone else, not even fathers and sons; the father has no authority over his son,’ and so on.

But if we say justice, which means giving each one that to which he or she is entitled, this misunderstanding no longer applies, and the word used is correct. Hence it does not say in the Qur’aan that Allaah enjoins equality, rather it says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, Allaah enjoins Al‑‘Adl (i.e. justice)”

[al-Nahl 16:90]

“and that when you judge between men, you judge with justice”

[al-Nisa’ 4:58]

Those who say that Islam is the religion of equality are lying against Islam. Rather Islam is the religion of justice which means treating equally those who are equal and differentiating between those who are different.

No one who knows the religion of Islam would say that it is the religion of equality. Rather what shows you that this principle is false is the fact that most of what is mentioned in the Qur’aan denies equality, as in the following verses:

‘Say: Are those who know equal to those who know not?”

[al-Zumar 39:9]

‘Say: Is the blind equal to the one who sees? Or darkness equal to light?’

[al-Ra’d 13:16]

‘Not equal among you are those who spent and fought before the conquering (of Makkah, with those among you who did so later’

[al-Hadeed 57:10]

‘Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allaah with their wealth and their live’

[al-Nisa’ 4:95]

Not one single letter in the Qur’aan enjoins equality, rather it enjoins justice. You will also find that the word justice is acceptable to people, for I feel that if I am better than this man in terms of knowledge, or wealth, or piety, or in doing good, I would not like for him to be equal to me.

"Every man knows that he find it unacceptable if we say that the male is equal to the female.”

Sharh al-‘Aqeedah al-Waasitah, 1/180-181

Based on this, Islam does not regard men and women as equal in matters where regarding them as equal would result in injustice to one of them, because equality that is inappropriate is a severe form of injustice.

The Qur’aan commands women to wear clothes that are different from those worn by men, because of the differences in the ways each sex is tempted by the other. The temptation posed by men is less than the temptation posed by women, so the clothes that women should wear are different than the clothes that men wear. It makes no sense to tell women to expose the parts of the body that men are allowed to expose, because of the differences in the temptation posed by a woman’s body and a man’s body – as I shall explain.

There are matters in which men and women are treated differently in Islamic sharee’ah, such as:

1 – Qiwaamah (being in charge of the household)

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means”

[al-Nisa’ 4:34]

Ibn Katheer said:

“Allaah says ‘Men are the protectors and maintainers of women’ meaning that the man is in charge of the woman, i.e., he is the leader and head of the household, the one who disciplines her if she goes astray.

‘because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other’ i.e., because men are superior to women Hence Prophethood was given only to men, as was the position of khaleefah. Men are the guardians and protectors of women so Allah created them superior so they could protect them when they can't fend for themselves. This is more of an obligation rather than a privilege.

"But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], hit them (lightly. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted and Grand"

There are disturbed individuals who use this verse to justify their violent behavior towards their wives. It is important that a wife recognizes the authority of her husband in the house. He is the head of the household, and she is supposed to listen to him. But the husband should also use his authority with respect and kindness towards his wife. If there arises any disagreement or dispute among them, then it should be resolved in a peaceful manner. Spouses should seek the counsel of their elders and other respectable family members and friends to batch up the rift and solve the differences.However, in some cases a husband may use some light disciplinary action in order to correct the moral infraction of his wife, but this is only applicable in extreme cases and it should be resorted to if one is sure it would improve the situation. However, if there is a fear that it might worsen the relationship or may wreak havoc on him or the family, then he should avoid it completely.

"and because they spend (to support them) from their means’ refers to the mahr and the spending on women’s maintenance that Allaah has enjoined upon men in His Book and in the Sunnah of His Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). So a man is inherently better than a woman, and he is superior to her because he spends on her. So it is appropriate that he should be in charge of her, as Allaah says, ‘but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them’ [al-Baqarah 2:228].

‘Ali ibn Abi Talhah said, narrating from Ibn ‘Abbaas: ‘Men are the protectors and maintainers of women’ means that men are the leaders of women and they should obey them in areas where Allaah has enjoined obedience. Obedience may mean treating his family kindly and protecting his wealth.”

2 – Testimony or bearing witness. The Qur’aan states that the testimony of one man is equivalent to the testimony of two women.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And get two witnesses out of your own men. And if there are not two men (available), then a man and two women, such as you agree for witnesses, so that if one of them (two women) errs, the other can remind her”

[al-Baqarah 2:282]

There may be some women who are wiser than some men, but this is not the usual rule and such women are not in the majority. Sharee’ah is based on what is general and most common.

This doesn't mean women are insane or crazy, rather their reason is often overtaken by their emotions, and this happens to women more often than it happens to men. No one would deny this except one who is arrogant.

3 – A woman inherits half of what a man inherits.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah commands you as regards your children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females”

[al-Nisa’ 4:11]

Al-Qurtubi said:

Because Allaah knows better than they do what is in their best interests, He made the division of inheritance based on differentiation, because He knows what is in their best interests.

Tafseer al-Qurtubi, 5/164

"With great power there must also come great responsibility."

Men inherit more because they are obligated to use their wealth to provide for their family. Women can aswell, but they don't have to.

For example, a man is obliged to spend more than a woman, so it makes sense that he should have a larger share of inheritance than a woman.

4 – Clothing:

A woman’s ‘awrah includes her entire body. The least that can be said is that she should not uncover anything except her face and hands, and it was said that she should not even uncover that.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allaah is Ever Oft‑Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Ahzaab 33:59]

The ‘awrah of a man is the area from the navel to the knees.

It was said to ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ja’far ibn Abi Taalib, “Tell us what you heard from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and what you saw of him, and do not tell us about anyone else, even if he was trustworthy.” He said, “I heard the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say, ‘The area between the navel and the knee is ‘awrah.’”

Narrated by al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak (6418); classed as hasan by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 5583.

Everything that we have mentioned is based on the difference between men and women, because the male is not like the female. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And the male is not like the female”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:36]

The male is different from the female in many ways, with regard to emotions, men speak of them when they get angry or when they are happy, but women are affected by the slightest emotional effects, so their tears flow at the slightest emotional provocation. Why else do you think women cry more then men at the end of a romantic film.

Jihad is obligatory for men, but jihad in the sense of fighting is not obligatory for women. This is the mercy of Allaah towards them, and consideration for their nature.

In conclusion we may say that the rulings for men are not like the rulings for women.

Thirdly:

Islam regards men and women as equally obliged with regard to many acts of worship and interactions with others. For example, women do wudoo’ just as men do, they do ghusl as men do, they pray as men do, and they fast as men do, except when they are menstruating or bleeding following childbirth. Women pay zakaah as men pay zakaah, and they do Hajj as men do, except for a few differences in the rulings. It is permissible and acceptable to buy from a woman, and if a woman gives charity, that is permissible. It is permissible for a woman to set free the slaves that she owns, and there are many other similar cases because women are the twin halves of men, as it says in the hadeeth:

It was narrated that ‘Aa’ishah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was asked about a man who finds some wetness (on his clothes) but did not have an erotic dream, and he said, “He should do ghusl.” He was asked about a man who had an erotic dream but did not find any wetness, and he said, “He does not have to do ghusl.” Umm Salamah said, “O Messenger of Allaah, if a woman sees that, does she have to do ghusl?” He said, “Yes, for women are the twin halves of men.”

Conclusion:

Women are like men in some aspects and they differ from them in others. Most of the rulings of Islam apply to men and women equally. In cases where a distinction is made between the sexes, the Muslim regards that as a mercy from Allaah and a sign of His knowledge of His creation, but the arrogant one sees it as oppression and injustice, so he stubbornly insists on claiming that men and women are the same. So let him tell us how a man can carry a fetus and breastfeed it? He stubbornly ignores how women bleed during their monthly period, and he stubbornly beats his head against the rock of reality. But the Muslim is still at peace with his faith, surrendering to the command of Allah.

“Should not He Who has created know? And He is the Most Kind and Courteous (to His slaves), All‑Aware (of everything)”

[al-Mulk 67:14 – interpretation of the meaning]

And Allah knows best.

PEDOPHILIA

There is no such thing as pedophilia in Islam, as there is no minimum age of marriage. The general consensus in Islam is that a girl can be married off any any age, even as an infant, but consummation of the marriage is not to take place until she is "able to bear intercourse".

The fact that it is permissible to marry a young girl does not mean that it is permissible to have intercourse with her; rather that should not be done until she is able for it.

SLAVERY

"He will not enter paradise who behaveth ill to his slaves. The companions said, "O Apostle of God! Have you not told us, that there will be a great many slaves and orphans amongst your disciples?" He said, "Yes; then be kind to them as your own children, and give them to eat of what you eat yourselves. The slaves that say their prayers are your brothers."

[The first call to prayer at the Quba mosque built by Prophet Muhammad was given in 622 by Bilal -- a black slave freed by the Prophet. The Supreme Court of the United States declared in 1857 that the slave Dred Scott could not sue for his freedom because he was not a person, but property.]

It should first be remarked that Islam has tolerated slavery but has never approved of it, and that all its teachings and prescriptions in this regard lead to its alleviation as far as possible in the short term, and, in the longer term, conduce to its progressive suppression. To abolish it would have been impossible in a world in which it was generally practiced by all the states which bordered on the new Muslim empire, and in which the idea of challenging the principle itself had not occurred to anyone. It was the custom to enslave prisoners of war. By guaranteeing them humane treatment, and various possibilities of subsequently releasing themselves, it ensured that a good number of combatants in the opposing armies preferred captivity at the hands of Muslims to death on the field of battle.

It should be very clearly underlined that the slavery once practiced in the Muslim world cannot be compared to the form it had assumed -- for instance -- in the Roman Empire. Islamic legislation subjected slave owners to a set of precise obligations, first among which was the slave's right to life, for, according to a hadith, 'Whoever kills his slave shall be killed by us'. In consequence, the murder of a slave was punished like that of a free man.

There are many other hadiths which define Islam's true attitude in this regard. The Prophet said: 'Your slaves are your brethren; therefore whoever has a brother who depends upon him must feed and clothe him in the way he feeds and clothes himself; and should not impose upon him tasks which exceed his capacity; should you ask them to do such things, then you are obliged to help them.' The Sharia takes this injunction, among many others, into account when defining the responsibilities and duties of slaveholders.

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consolemaster001

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@pooty said:

@consolemaster001: Are you in a mostly Muslim country? If you are not, why did you choose Islam over Christianity? thanks

No problem

I was born in Turkey. A country with a 97.8% Muslim population.

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lykopis

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@consolemaster001:

I appreciate your post -- thank you. Pretty much laid out exactly why Islam is an extraordinarily misogynistic and sexist religion. I appreciate there are men amongst the religion who recognize the ridiculousness of the claims put forth in terms of men being more clever, less emotional -- etc. Women are considered pets/slaves of their husbands and so the treatment of them should reflect that. The excuses put forth are truly some of the most self-serving, deluded rationalizing I have ever come across.

I do realize the above may come across as extremely offensive but it's the truth and any human being who attempts to defend Islam and it's beliefs about women in general and their treatment of them is the closest example of an ostrich with it's head in the sand in human form.

My opinion.