Man commits suicide because Girlfriend won't stop Shopping

I never even assumed that. Not sure where you got that from. All I stated was that people don't just committed suicide because you label them as push overs.

I said that he may have been mentally ill, I also said that it could have been another reason. Shouldn't after to repeat myself. He killed himself in public, but he didn't just do it to spite people or gain attention. He likely couldn't help doing it then.

Why? You think I am immature or childish simply because I hold a different view to you?

I am done here.

You saying "clearly you have never contemplated suicide" is assuming things about my personal life.

You read what I said wrong. I meant some people who kill themselves are push overs in life. I never said people kill themselves because some one says "Hey your a pushover"

Depending on your age, and or where you grew up, you criticisms of my comments would make more sense if you were not an adult and grew up in a nice neighborhood. And there is nothing wrong with that like I said I wasn't trying to be offensive, but some people witness different things when they are children that changes their outlook on the world.

Not to say that if you were a grown man/woman that you are childish for having your beliefs, but if that was the case then you more than likely grew up in a better situation than some people to have such a sympathetic view for someone who does not deserve it. (See, I can make assumptions too.)

@jmg: I agree with you. I myself have no sympathy for people who commit suicide because life is hard for all of us from the day we are born to the day we die it's hard but you just keep moving forward that's what life is all about. Every time I hear a suicide story I feel bad for those people who weren't even given the choice to live while this individual kills themselves.

That is similar to my perspective. But like I said, the only time I have ever felt sympathy towards someone who took their life was when it was a little kid who was bullied at school or by their parents because they were too young to comprehend that life is ****. Just makes me wish they had someone in their life to let them know it gets better, you know what I'm saying?

I can honestly say that in real life I have never heard anybody say they feel sorry for people who commit suicide. But then I looked at that kids profile and in his about me it said he was 14 so I aint mad at him.

I wasn't referring to that, but what you said about push overs.

No I didn't read it wrong. I disagree about simply labeling people as pushovers and using that as the reason they commit suicide. People don't just end their lives because they are pushovers. That is your view summed and it is that, which I disagree with.

I never took offense. Not that your assumptions are correct anyway. They aren't.

@mrdecepticonleader: Once again, you clearly read what I said wrong. I never once said people kill themselves because of the fact that they are pushovers, I said a lot of people who killed themselves were push overs.

If a man is a push over, and kills himself because his wife cheated on him, he kiled himself because his wife cheated on him, not because he's a push over, you see? This doesn't change the fact that he was still a push over.

People who are not push overs (Go getters who make the best of their situations and create a good life for themselves) are highly less likely to take their life because "life sucks"

I doubt it was just shopping that lead to this.

And why on earth did this thread get so heated?

And I disagree with that as I have said. You would label them as pushovers but I would not. We disagree. I have not read what you say wrong at all.

Hell yeah a good old fashion flame war!!!

#27 Posted by JMG (123 posts) - 18 hours, 24 minutes ago - Show Bio

I don't feel bad for people that commit suicide. I think it's extremely selfish, especially in a case like this. They were at a a mall so you know little kids had to witness this. All because he had emotional problems that he couldn't handle like a man he decides to ruin everybody's day.

#31 Posted by Rubear (136 posts) - 14 hours, 58 minutes ago - Show Bio

Puny weakling choose to end his live, not to break up or part company, and we must feel bad for him after this demonstrative suicide? Nonsense...

These.

@mrdecepticonleader: @jmg: What jmg said is used as advice given to people complementing suicide and often prevents people from doing it.

So saying that people are push overs if they commit suicide is used to help people contemplating it?

Huh....

Funny. Of all the melodramatic things that drive people to suicide, he decided that this sit-com moment was the right point to punctuate his life.

@mrdecepticonleader: No, that's it's selfish and ruins peoples' lives that you love.

As for pushover, ehhh it's not quite put so "elegantly" but it's moreso you're better than this, it's only a easy way out etc. It's mainly putting a negative image of suicide into a person's head.

I never said otherwise regarding that.

Wow dude you keep exploiting the lack of reading comprehension skills that you have.

I keep mentioning I did not say if someone kills them selves they are a push over and you say you understand but you obviously don't with what you just said. So I'm not going to elaborate anymore since you simply lack the ability to grasp what I'm saying.

Then @maccyd says people who commit suicide are selfish and ruins other peoples lives. Which is exactly the same thesis of my original comment that you couldn't wait to criticize, and you say to him "I never said otherwise regarding that."

O.o

I can't tell if you're trolling or not.

@maccyd Yeah I was going to say... lol. I'm pretty sure a counselor would be more gentle than what I had originally said.

Not really. I have read what you have said just fine.

I have grasped it just fine with what you have said. Here take a look at what you said earlier. "it is very possible that he is just a push over and couldn't deal with a simple "No, we are going home right now."

It is this view point I disagree, that sums it up with what I disagree with here.

I never said that suicide in itself can't be a selfish act or that it leaves family's devastated , but that does not mean we can't apply understanding and sympathy for the person who took their own life. Since for some who do commit suicide they feel it is their only way out in a certain situation. Maybe he needed help but instead his problems were ignored, he wanted help but no one wanted to know. People commit suicide for various reasons the best thing to do is to look at the situation and see if there was anything that could have been done to prevent him form killing himself. To apply understanding and yeah you can feel sympathy for someone who kills them self because they feel so horrible and down that it is the only way out. It is both tragic in that he killed himself and that his family have lost him.

It's going to take five more hours of shopping to stop her crying.

@mrdecepticonleader: Really? You keep making it crystal clear you don't know what you are talking about.

You have this opinion of me that I label every one who kills them self as a push over. But if you read the sentence that you quoted me in I said it was a POSSIBILITY that he could have been one.

Earlier I said not everybody who kills them self is a push over.

You really need me to repeat all of this again?

And like I said before, the only people I have ever felt bad for who committed suicide were little kids because they don't know better. And usually little kids/teenagers are depressed and don't know how to deal with their situations. Especially if they got ****** up parents.

But on the other hand, a grown adult should know that life is hard, and to not even think how it's going to effect your friends/family is extremely selfish and is the cowards way out. There is always a way, even if you can't see it right in front of you. In my eyes causing a group of people years and years of depression whenever your birthday comes around because you feel like life has nothing to offer you, including these people who love you so much, is a terrible thing to do to somebody so I will not feel bad for you. I will feel bad for your family, but you won't get any sympathy from me when you pull something as low as that.

You're whole argument is you can "understand what someone like that is going through." And yes it's true. I can understand wanting to kill yourself, because I have thought about it when I was a younger man, depressed in my high school years because of my living situation, but the fact is I never did and I never will. I'm not going to tell you about my childhood because I don't want your sympathy, but people have killed themselves for idiotic reasons compared to what cards I was dealt with.

So here is a word of advice. Don't lecture people on how they should feel about these cowards who damage peoples lives forever. Just because you feel sad for a man you didn't know, does not make you better than some one who despises people who kill themselves. I put my sympathies where they belong, not where they are not deserved.

I don't think you are reading what I have said right at all. I don't have this opinion that you label everyone is a pushover. I just disagree that people who do so are pushovers. You have labeled some people who commit suicide as push overs not all I understand that perfectly. Has it sunk in yet? pfft

Well whatever that is your view. We disagree on that. No need to go over that again.

Again treading over old ground. No point in going over that again. I am done.

Somebody (JMG) said that they don't feel sorry for people who commit suicide, and people who do feel sorry are young / childish / overly sensitive.

@mrdecepticonleader:
"So saying that people are push overs if they commit suicide is used to help people contemplating it?"
"And I disagree with that as I have said. You would label them as pushovers but I would not"
"I disagree about simply labeling people as pushovers and using that as the reason they commit suicide"

Nice try

@jedixman: I see.

Yeah I disagree about that. I never said you label all people as push overs though. Just that you do which I disagree with.

Dude just admit you are wrong the proof is right there. And those were just your last 3 posts.

Your saying I label people who kill themselves as push overs, and the reason they kill themselves is because they are push overs.
(Which, by the way, I never even suggested. Reason why I kept asking you if you were even reading my comments.)
I don't know how many times you've said you are done with this conversation and kept making a fool of your self but this time I am done.

It is clear I am debating with someone who doesn't know what they are talking about or even know what they said.

You did though. I have read your comments.

You do it right here "You are just assuming this man has mental disease, it is very possible that he is just a push over and couldn't deal with a simple "No, we are going home right now." People kill themselves every day because they can't handle life anymore. The only people I have ever felt empathy for killing themselves are young children who are bullied at school and don't get any love from their parents because they are too young to know any better."

Here too "People kill themselves because they are push overs quite often actually.Not everybody who kills them self is a push over, but it happens more than you might think."

Even saying people do it because of that more often than it seems. You did type this right? Not your brother or evil clone or something?

Don't know what else to say really. It is there in black and white.

Ha ha. It would be funny if it wasn't so petty.

Suicide isn't always a selfish thing to do, and its not always a cowardly thing either. Its often to do with empathy and mental, psychological and emotional disconnections, chemical imbalances, a persons coping mechanisms being overwhelmed by external or internal pressures or both, a poor sense of perspective and reality, whether momentary or ongoing, or a combination of the things I said and more.

We can't assume all adults have the same knowledge and similar life experiences that help build coping skills. In fact some children and teenagers may be better equipped to deal with some problems some adults face. In one sense, if a person is in pain and there only solution is to kill themselves even though they are conscious of the possibility of bringing pain to those they might know when there are also plenty of alternatives to easing the pain, then still following through with the suicide is quite selfish. Small problem with using that to justify calling suicidal people cowards or those that commit suicide selfish, is that we know, it tends to be more complex and nuanced than that save for those needing someone to blame or whatever. Usually the state of those affects a persons sense of perceptions and can lead them to overestimating the burden and problem they face and underestimate how much they will be missed or how negatively those that may know them will be affected. Some suicidal people have even sincerely believed that killing themselves would benefit loved ones and thus. Or they might understand people will be hurt but the underestimate but how much and or that just adds to their guilt and adds another reason to escape by death.

Ultimately its really hard for anyone to really judge a person for such actions. Sometimes peoples best friends were molested, abused, raped as children or teens, and they won't know and they may never find out, and that person will have moved on somewhat or coped for the most part and then something just triggers them and they fall to pieces. So how are we suppose to know the history and psychology oif a random guy in a news article? I knew one mother that immolated herself after all three of her children were killed in a car accident and she survived. I can't imagine the pain of losing three children, I am not going to try and call her a coward for experiencing something I probably never will. Then here's the thing? Us humans, we can be great with sympathy, especially when its things we understand, and parents losing a child? Thats something we can understand and empathize with, but the nature of pain and emotional, mental, psychological distress and pain is that people can experience it subjectively and to great extents even if we can't immediately understand what obvious real world physical actions led to that pain. So whilst its possible that some spoilt attractive rich kid teenager who had friends, family etc after being given the wrong… car for his birthday decides to kill himself over something relatively trivial, we don't know that he didn't have a very severe chemical imbalance and I have doubts about that being the actual application of most suicides. I can't really imagine how confident some people are in their magical telepathic abilities to know what other people have gone through to determine their character and supposed strength or weakness. Seems like a false sense of confidence to affirm to an idea and belief they hold, rater than a sincere understanding of the mechanics that are cause catalyst and force on suicidal actions and behavior. Which in turn affects how we as a society help people cope with pain and outright prevent suicide in general.

I have never read a study that says telling suicidal people its selfish is beneficial in any shape or form, or that it helps, so if anyone has any links to such studies/articles that would be great. As far as I have learned the best way is to show support and get them to see professional help. I am not sure attempts to guilt them will work but hey. Tough love approach might work with some people sure, but you have to be careful with such things and actually should just be deterring to professional help. In other situations, guilt tripping can actually be counter productive and exacerbate the situation. There are ways to remind a suicidal person there are alternative ways to end pain and that they are loved and their absence will be missed, without trying to call them a quitter, coward, weak etc etc

Now victims of suicide, as in the family and friends who have had loved ones kill themselves, if claiming someone helps them cope and get over grief, thats fine too, just that there are also victims that work differently and knew their loved ones better than anyone else could have and knew they were strong and brave, because thats the true horror of suicide. It can take all sorts of people, and its important to remember that as far as working towards its prevention and elimination. Sensitive subject, everyone will have different experiences and ideas but its never a detriment to try and remember that about each other when disagreeing about such things and to extend some politeness and kindness and maybe even a bit of courtesy and friendliness! Woot woot okay my obnoxiously long post is done now, if anyone is actually still reading to this point you deserve a cookie. Not that I can actually give you a cookie, but its the though that counts… hopefully… >_>

@sc: I zoned out at the middle part of your obnoxiously long post. May I still get a cookie?

@wolverine08 said:

Sorry, you have to pay attention to the whole thing for the cookie I am afraid. I am sorry. =(

Oh uhm, or I can just give you half a cookie, thats a fair compromise. ^__^.

@sc: Half a cookie is great! *Stuffs cookie down mouth*

It really is petty. And now it's obvious that we have a huge case of miscomunicaiton.

When I typed "People kill themselves because they are push overs quite often actually." was me typing fast because I was being attacked by two people for giving my honest opinion. My actual thoughts are

In most cases, a person who has committed suicide was a push over in life. However, this is not true for everybody. In some cases people who take their own life are actually seemingly happy people and it take everybody by surprise.

Glad we cleared that up. I was under the impression that you thought nobody who ever committed suicide was a push over, because what i initially meant to say was expressed with the wrong words.

Thanks for posting that. You should add it to the book we talked about that you are working on :)

And I'll PM my address so you can send me a cookie. I'll put it under the tree and open it on christmas.

Right....

Well I don't think people who commit suicide are push overs. I said before it is views like that, which need to be addressed.

@mrdecepticonleader: I guess it just depends on the person and the person who is viewing the subjects experiences. If some one was friends with somebody who took their life, and that said friend was not what you would call a typical push over, then I can see where a disagreement would come. Especially if you are close to the situation. Every one that I've known who has ever killed themselves or at least attempted to, were push overs in their day to day lives. So that is where I am coming from.

As to what @sc said about people committing suicide over something seemingly trivial is where I draw most of my experience from. To me, thinking no one loves you and no one cares if you will die are thoughts i can understand because a lot of my friends think this when I know it not to be true. Shoot, when I was in middle school I used to think this. But I know for a fact the same people I didn't think would care back then, I now know they would be mourning my death. A lot of that had to do with growing up and coping with how hard life is.

Also what @sc said about different ways to talk to kids effects them differently I think is interesting. Because for me, it was always tough love and I personally think everyone needs some. But thinking about telling someone like my cousin that they are a coward would not be the best idea because he is stubborn.

I've been talking about this topic with my girlfriend actually and she put it to me in a way that a heated internet debate could not lol. She reminded me that some eastern countries looked at suicide as courageous and honorable, and the whole selfish idea comes from Americans.

I think the way I was raised formed some sort of "tough s***" lens on how i perceive certain behaviors and people in the world. All my life I have believed everybody who took their life was selfish and that was that. To me being depressed was not a good excuse for taking your own life.

I'm glad this thread was posted to be honest. It always feels good to get some positive insight and grow as a person.

Agree to disagree then :)

@mrdecepticonleader: Agreed :)

@mrdecepticonleader: @jmg: I really enjoyed reading your guys views and perspectives, even if at times it felt a bit tense. I appreciate getting to see honest discussion about a tricky and sometimes taboo topic and points addressed and that you both ended the discussion amicably and with respect I think is pretty awesome and can be rare to see online, and testament to your guys intelligence and character, so cheers both of you.

I agree with you as well JMG about this thread being posted, it can churn out some dialogue which I think is important for people to think about and that people benefit from that consideration.

Oh and heh heh thanks MrDecepticon too for the kind words. Cheers mate.

Discussion is absolutely necessary and of course there are going to be conflicting ideals, but to me, that is how you get insight on the world. I was actually expecting @mrdecepticonleader to mock me for that post because every other forum I go to does that sort of thing. But there was just some ideas that were not expressed correctly and I am glad that we settled it like gentleman.

I love this site btw lol

Thanks I appreciate that. I agree it is and it can be.

No problem always nice to hear what you have to say on topics like this.

Yeah, heard about this...

I mean I know us guys hate shopping with the chicks for hours but damn....

Thank you so much for this post.

To be honest - and I can only speak for myself here - as much as it hurts to read them and I disagree with the point of view, a lot of the comments here about the person being selfish....that does go through your head when you lose someone in that way. It's natural to be mad at them, angry at being left behind. You feel abandoned. Like, what in your life was so bad that you would leave me, you know? Why weren't we enough for you??

But then...I don't know, time passes, you calm down. Grieving for a suicide involves so many mixed, often conflicting emotions. After a time, I started thinking about it in another way. If the person I lost had been in a hideous accident, and reduced to some permanent vegetative state, I would feel that keeping them alive with machines was cruel, and selfish. So then if someone has some kind of mental illness which makes their day to day life unbearable even WITH medication...as much as you wanna help that person, you can't. You hope always they will get better, but they won't. And as much as you might love a person with all your heart, and miss them more than anything...maybe in some ways wanting a person like that to stay alive, suffering, just because you will hurt and miss them....maybe that is sort of selfish too? I can't pretend to know what went through the head of the person I am talking about, but I do know that every day, they were terribly frightened, confused and isolated, just by being in their own head. While far, far away from being glad they are dead (in case it comes across that way, it is not what I mean) I have to try and take some comfort in knowing that they are not going through that anymore. If it was a physical ailment, many people would agree with that point of view, but mental illness seems to be a much trickier subject.

So um...yeah probably this is one hell of an overshare but still, thank you. Very much.

/thread

But those sales...

*puts on sunglasses*

...were to die for.

I see a lot of people saying it was cowardly, selfish, and weak as well as indicative of severe depression but we have to realize that this is a different culture with an entirely different view on life, death, and suicide. In China, people see suicide as the ultimate protest (see articles on Foxconn and monk protests). He may not have possessed any of those negative traits and might have just been willing to lay down his life for his "cause".

Eastern and western views are radically different. I think this needs to be kept in mind before judging him from the perspective of western culture.

@bumpyboo said:

Awh no problem, thank you for your additional comments and thoughts. Especially since we are both loosely familiar with how suicide has affected and impacted our respective lives and the lives of people we care about deeply.

Reading your comments, for some reason it made me think of humans understanding of physical health and how stigma and taboos about the human body and ignorance helped shaped and maintained ideas. Like Humorism? In the modern day with all that we know about how complex the human body is, there was still a very very long period where a lot of people, intelligent people included, believed that the human body and its health was dependent on the balance of its blood, black bile, yellow bile and phlegm. In excess of hundreds and hundreds of years, such a throughly inaccurate view of health was mainstream and normal, and our basic bodies are still relatively less complex than our brains. So mental health? In a lot of ways, even many advanced modern societies are still behind as far as the stigma that can be carried around with mental health and a lot of people hold simplistic views about it or just want to avoid honest discussion about it because of various reasons including being sacred of it. It also being something that can be taboo to talk about.

With physical health and mental health, the ideal is not that we overestimate a problem (example pain) or underestimate a problem (pain) but ideally have a good understanding and accurate sense which in turn should allow the best treatment possible (and if the best treatment/solution possible is impractical then trying to edge towards making sure its not impractical) but I do think things are getting better as far as attitudes and perceptions on mental health and how to best address problems, because I think your very correct with your comparison of mental/physical ailments.

Then its that human perceptions thing again isn't it? Humans we have this wonderful tool of empathy that allows us to show kindness to others based on our ability to imagine what it must be for them without having any immediate reference points. Now physical injury is something that is something thats easy to empathize with another person with. We see a person hit by a car and hurt their leg, even if we haven't been hit by a car or broken a leg, we can see how an external force has damaged and hurt a person and we can recall how we can also be hurt by external forces. Mental health issues? Those require a much deeper and thoughtful expression of empathy and sometimes external factors are removed or ambiguous, which in a lot of ways must be frustrating even for people thinking that deeply, because if you can't identify a problem? How can you find the solution? Physical injury like a broken leg, you set the bone, put leg in cast and keep pressure off it. You know the cause, you can identify the problem, you can prescribe a solution. Mental health can be so much harder, but thats really just where additional and greater patience, empathy and consideration have to come in heh heh. Which is like 1000 times harder in practice than just me typing it here but you know, and we all do our best to support each other as well which is a huge help.

Thank you again.

Eh.... I dunno... What should i think about this o_O... Is it evan real? Cause i have doubts and if its real i think i should say R.I.P.? I mean suicide is a last resort option and i dont think ''anyone'' should resort to that... but i know some peoples who realy needs that so i can agree on that.