Kobe is the greatest nba player to play in nba

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@dccomicsrule2011: I guess with how I worded it, Kareem just as a Laker wouldn't be better than Kobe but Kobe is not even 1/2 the player Kareem is.

In order to be consider "the best", you need to win the award that solidifies you as the single best player in the NBA and that's the MVP. Kobe has how many?

Kareem on the otherhand....well I'll let you wikipedia it yourself.

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#102  Edited By King_Saturn
@Quintus_Knightfall said:

@King Saturn: Alltime or current/active?

All Time 
 
 
@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@King Saturn said:

I wonder about these other guys in the league... like what about Dwayne Wade ? He is a SG, and we know Jordan and Kobe are over him... but in the history of the NBA who else is a better SG than D Wade ?

John Havlicek is better then Wade, Big O is better and so is Jerry West,not to say Wade won't/can't past some of these dudes by time is career is over.

You sure about Havilicek being better than Wade ? I mean Hondo was a Beast... but I think Wade might be on par with him. Oscar was more of a PG IMO... though I guess he could play the 2 as well. 
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#103  Edited By Urban_Ronin

@King Saturn: I dont know, I like Wade, he's beast mode, but for some reason I dont rank him very high. In fact I'd put players like Reggie Miller, and Joe Dumars ahead of him. But those may be a bit bias.

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@King Saturn said:

I wonder about these other guys in the league... like what about Dwayne Wade ? He is a SG, and we know Jordan and Kobe are over him... but in the history of the NBA who else is a better SG than D Wade ?

Wade to me only have had 3-4 great years in the NBA while benefiting from just being at the right place at the right time. I wouldn't put him above Drexler, West or Iverson.

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#105  Edited By karrob

@dreadmaster said:

Haaaaaaa

Agreed!

@Vance Astro said:

I'm a huge Kobe\Lakers Franchise fan but Kobe isn't the best we've ever seen. He may be the best Laker we've ever seen but he's not better than Micheal Jordan and he's not better than Lebron James and by the time Kevin Durant's career is over he will be better than Kobe as well.

Well said!

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#106  Edited By Pharoh_Atem
@King Saturn: You sure about Havilicek being better than Wade ? I mean Hondo was a Beast... but I think Wade might be on par with him. Oscar was more of a PG IMO... though I guess he could play the 2 as well.

Hondo was like a swiss army knife he could do anything you asked him too, he was a beast on defense and was good on offense as well I rank him above Wade. Yeah I guess you right Oscar was more of a point guard.

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#107  Edited By King_Saturn
@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

I wonder about these other guys in the league... like what about Dwayne Wade ? He is a SG, and we know Jordan and Kobe are over him... but in the history of the NBA who else is a better SG than D Wade ?

Wade to me only have had 3-4 great years in the NBA while benefiting from just being at the right place at the right time. I wouldn't put him above Drexler, West or Iverson.

Okay, but technically you could say Kobe benefit from being at the right place at the right time as well... because both Wade and Kobe had Shaq early on in their careers... so I don't know if that is a solid argument.  
 
 
@dccomicsrule2011 said:
@King Saturn: You sure about Havilicek being better than Wade ? I mean Hondo was a Beast... but I think Wade might be on par with him. Oscar was more of a PG IMO... though I guess he could play the 2 as well.

Hondo was like a swiss army knife he could do anything you asked him too, he was a beast on defense and was good on offense as well I rank him above Wade. Yeah I guess you right Oscar was more of a point guard.

Wade's athleticism is greater than Hondo's though... and stat wise they are not that far off either... but you also forget that Hondo was more of a swingman who would play the SF position a lot too. 
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#108  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers:

I guess with how I worded it, Kareem just as a Laker wouldn't be better than Kobe but Kobe is not even 1/2 the player Kareem is.

I disagree Kobe is close to Kareem, in fact he could surpass Kareem in points all time as long as he plays the way he is now,he should surpass Kareem,but of course that's all up to Kobe to even play another 3-4 years even if he can still play at a high level.

In order to be consider "the best", you need to win the award that solidifies you as the single best player in the NBA and that's the MVP. Kobe has how many?
Kareem on the otherhand....well I'll let you wikipedia it yourself.

I disagree the MVP is all most always given to the best player on the best team, Steve Nash was never better then Kobe neither was he ever the best player in the league yet he has 2 MVP awards.Kobe should have won MVP in 2005-06 but they gave it to Steve Nash,that was one of if not the biggest MVP robberies in NBA history.

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#109  Edited By Pharoh_Atem
@King Saturn: Wade's athleticism is greater than Hondo's though... and stat wise they are not that far off either... but you also forget that Hondo was more of a swingman who would play the SF position a lot too.

True, Wade's athleticism is greater but that does always mean much...I mean Vince Carter is much more athletic then Larry bird but when it comes to who's the better player it is not even close.While it is true they are close stat wise, stats can sometimes lie. It does not count how good you are defensibly because if you look at Bruce Bowen's stats you would never think of him as a great defensive player,but he was in fact great.Look at Magic for instance he averages more steals per game then Kobe on paper you would think he is the better defender but your opinion would quickly change when you see them play.True Hondo did play the SF allot in his career.

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#110  Edited By King_Saturn
@dccomicsrule2011 said:
@King Saturn: Wade's athleticism is greater than Hondo's though... and stat wise they are not that far off either... but you also forget that Hondo was more of a swingman who would play the SF position a lot too.

True, Wade's athleticism is greater but that does always mean much...I mean Vince Carter is much more athletic then Larry bird but when it comes to who's the better player it is not even close.While it is true they are close stat wise, stats can sometimes lie. It does not count how good you are defensibly because if you look at Bruce Bowen's stats you would never think of him as a great defensive player,but he was in fact great.Look at Magic for instance he averages more steals per game then Kobe on paper you would think he is the better defender but your opinion would quickly change when you see them play.True Hondo did play the SF allot in his career.

Actually I for a 6'9'' white guy Bird was athletic in his prime... plus Bird was so much better than Vince Carter at essentially everything except for dunking it's not a discussion there... now it is true that stats to do lie... but why assume that in this instance with Wade against Hondo ? 
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@King Saturn said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

I wonder about these other guys in the league... like what about Dwayne Wade ? He is a SG, and we know Jordan and Kobe are over him... but in the history of the NBA who else is a better SG than D Wade ?

Wade to me only have had 3-4 great years in the NBA while benefiting from just being at the right place at the right time. I wouldn't put him above Drexler, West or Iverson.

Okay, but technically you could say Kobe benefit from being at the right place at the right time as well... because both Wade and Kobe had Shaq early on in their careers... so I don't know if that is a solid argument.

Kobe definately benefited (and so did Jordan, Magic Bird etc) but like I said, Wade only really had 3-4 great years. Kobe consistently has been playing at a high level year after year while playing through injury. Wade unfortunately has not.

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#112  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@King Saturn:

Actually I for a 6'9'' white guy Bird was athletic in his prime... plus Bird was so much better than Vince Carter at essentially everything except for dunking it's not a discussion there...

Point taken.

now it is true that stats to do lie... but why assume that in this instance with Wade against Hondo ?

I'm just saying that the stats does not count for all that Hondo does on the defensive side of the ball.

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#113  Edited By King_Saturn
@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

I wonder about these other guys in the league... like what about Dwayne Wade ? He is a SG, and we know Jordan and Kobe are over him... but in the history of the NBA who else is a better SG than D Wade ?

Wade to me only have had 3-4 great years in the NBA while benefiting from just being at the right place at the right time. I wouldn't put him above Drexler, West or Iverson.

Okay, but technically you could say Kobe benefit from being at the right place at the right time as well... because both Wade and Kobe had Shaq early on in their careers... so I don't know if that is a solid argument.

Kobe definately benefited (and so did Jordan, Magic Bird etc) but like I said, Wade only really had 3-4 great years. Kobe consistently has been playing at a high level year after year while playing through injury. Wade unfortunately has not.

From 2004-2011, Wade never averaged less that 24 points per game... so Wade has consistently played at a high level... the only reason Wade has dropped down in stats the past few years is because he has to share the ball with the Greatest Basketball Player on the Planet ( Lebron James )... after Shaq left... Kobe never played with a player of the caliber of Lebron James. 
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#114  Edited By King_Saturn
@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@King Saturn:

Actually I for a 6'9'' white guy Bird was athletic in his prime... plus Bird was so much better than Vince Carter at essentially everything except for dunking it's not a discussion there...

Point taken.

now it is true that stats to do lie... but why assume that in this instance with Wade against Hondo ?

I'm just saying that the stats does not count for all that Hondo does on the defensive side of the ball.

okay, I gotcha 
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@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers:

I guess with how I worded it, Kareem just as a Laker wouldn't be better than Kobe but Kobe is not even 1/2 the player Kareem is.

I disagree Kobe is close to Kareem, in fact he could surpass Kareem in points all time as long as he plays the way he is now,he should surpass Kareem,but of course that's all up to Kobe to even play another 3-4 years even if he can still play at a high level.

  1. Kobe will need to play a few more years in order to pass Kareem in points. We'll have this convo again if and when that happens.
  2. Kareem has 5 more MVPs than Kobe
  3. Kareem has 1 more championship than Kobe

I'm looking at those things and I have no idea how anyone can ever say Kobe is close to Kareem, let alone Jordan.

In order to be consider "the best", you need to win the award that solidifies you as the single best player in the NBA and that's the MVP. Kobe has how many?
Kareem on the otherhand....well I'll let you wikipedia it yourself.

I disagree the MVP is all most always given to the best player on the best team, Steve Nash was never better then Kobe neither was he ever the best player in the league yet he has 2 MVP awards.Kobe should have won MVP in 2005-06 but they gave it to Steve Nash,that was one of if not the biggest MVP robberies in NBA history.

Was 2005-2006 the 81 game year? I believe he was robbed during that year but at the same time I understand why he didn't get it. However when he finally did win it, I thought the award should have gone to CP3.

Either way, you give him another MVP & that's still 2. Sorry, I bleed purple & gold, have watched the Lakers since Kareem and Kobe to me is the 3rd best Laker to ever put on that uniform. Kobe to me is the most skilled player to ever put on the uniform but he didn't win as much or lead like Kareem or Magic & the accolades backs me up.

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@King Saturn said:

From 2004-2011, Wade never averaged less that 24 points per game... so Wade has consistently played at a high level... the only reason Wade has dropped down in stats the past few years is because he has to share the ball with the Greatest Basketball Player on the Planet ( Lebron James )... after Shaq left... Kobe never played with a player of the caliber of Lebron James.

Shaq was there for 3 years but in reality they only had 2 good years together. Lebron has been with Wade for 3 seasons.

So let's say Wade has been the man for 7 out of his 10 year career. In those 7 years how many of them were great? I count 2 & 1/2, his playoff run as a rookie with him leading the way & his next 2 years.

Then he stumbled until Lebron came along & now he plays 2nd fiddle while trying to fight through injuries for most of his career.

I don't know what you want me to say when I rank him where I did. Are you trying to tell me that Wade is the 3rd best SG to ever play the game?

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#117  Edited By King_Saturn
@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

From 2004-2011, Wade never averaged less that 24 points per game... so Wade has consistently played at a high level... the only reason Wade has dropped down in stats the past few years is because he has to share the ball with the Greatest Basketball Player on the Planet ( Lebron James )... after Shaq left... Kobe never played with a player of the caliber of Lebron James.

Shaq was there for 3 years but in reality they only had 2 good years together. Lebron has been with Wade for 3 seasons.

So let's say Wade has been the man for 7 out of his 10 year career. In those 7 years how many of them were great? I count 2 & 1/2, his playoff run as a rookie with him leading the way & his next 2 years.

Then he stumbled until Lebron came along & now he plays 2nd fiddle while trying to fight through injuries for most of his career.

I don't know what you want me to say when I rank him where I did. Are you trying to tell me that Wade is the 3rd best SG to ever play the game?

Wade's only lackluster season was his Rookie Season in terms of numbers... even the years he was Hurt, dude was putting up quality stats. As far as where you rank him, that's up to you... I just thought that your reasoning of ranking Wade lower than Drexler, Iverson, West because he benefit from having Shaq on his team was not a good reason. 
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#118  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers:

1. Kobe will need to play a few more years in order to pass Kareem in points. We'll have this convo again if and when that happens.

Ok

2.Kareem has 5 more MVPs than Kobe

True but as I said MVP's does not really mean that much.

3.Kareem has 1 more championship than Kobe

Also true but Kobe's career is not over yet (although the odds are against him)

I'm looking at those things and I have no idea how anyone can ever say Kobe is close to Kareem, let alone Jordan

You also have to look at these things Kobe has done in his career:

  • Kobe has scored 81 points in one game
  • Kobe could go retire as the all time leading scorer (as you said we have to wait and see)
  • Kobe was the youngest player in NBA history to reach 30,000 points
  • He is third all time in post season scoring and he is only something like 100 points back from Kareem for the 2 spot
  • Has been chosen to 12 All NBA Defensive First teams 1 more then Kareem
  • Kobe has scored 40 or more in nine consecutive games
  • Kobe has scored 50 or more in 4 consecutive games
  • Kobe won the NBA Championship 5 times and have been to 7 of them
  • Kobe has the most game winning baskets in the history of the NBA

Those things puts Kobe in the conversation with Kareem.

Was 2005-2006 the 81 game year?

Yep.

I believe he was robbed during that year but at the same time I understand why he didn't get it.

Why? Steve Nash only got it because his team was winning ,if it was flip side an Kobe was with the Suns he would have won it for sure that year.

However when he finally did win it, I thought the award should have gone to CP3.

Fair point.

Either way, you give him another MVP & that's still 2. Sorry, I bleed purple & gold, have watched the Lakers since Kareem and Kobe to me is the 3rd best Laker to ever put on that uniform. Kobe to me is the most skilled player to ever put on the uniform but he didn't win as much or lead like Kareem or Magic & the accolades backs me up.

The reason Kareem and Magic won more then Kobe is because there team was better then Kobe's the Lakers in the 80's was stacked while Kobe did have Shaq, after he left his team struggled and the best player he had was Lamar Odom and Smush Parker LOL,not exactly James Worthy and Micheal Cooper.When Lakers got some decent players again he went to 3 NBA championships and won 2 of them,sure he may not be better then Kareem is as of now but by time he ends his career he could surpass Kareem as the better player and already is better then him as a Laker. While I agree Magic is better then him he could still surpass Magic as the greatest Laker.

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#119  Edited By InnerSuperman

@wario1988:

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@dccomicsrule2011: If you don't consider MVPs then what do you judge by? Championships are more of a team accomplishments & while they certainly count, Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman is not better than the former MVP Karl Malone. People give out MVPs to the player they believe to be the best of the current year. Sure there may be politics involved but in the end, Jordan won 5 of them, Kareem had 6 & Magic had 3.

Kobe played for 17 seasons and he was only considered to be the best player of the current year one time. Heck you can even throw in Finals MVPs if you want and that still gives him only 3 . I don't know how people can consider a player to be the greatest nba player to play in the nba when he was only considered to be the best 3 out of the 17 years he played.

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@King Saturn said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

From 2004-2011, Wade never averaged less that 24 points per game... so Wade has consistently played at a high level... the only reason Wade has dropped down in stats the past few years is because he has to share the ball with the Greatest Basketball Player on the Planet ( Lebron James )... after Shaq left... Kobe never played with a player of the caliber of Lebron James.

Shaq was there for 3 years but in reality they only had 2 good years together. Lebron has been with Wade for 3 seasons.

So let's say Wade has been the man for 7 out of his 10 year career. In those 7 years how many of them were great? I count 2 & 1/2, his playoff run as a rookie with him leading the way & his next 2 years.

Then he stumbled until Lebron came along & now he plays 2nd fiddle while trying to fight through injuries for most of his career.

I don't know what you want me to say when I rank him where I did. Are you trying to tell me that Wade is the 3rd best SG to ever play the game?

Wade's only lackluster season was his Rookie Season in terms of numbers... even the years he was Hurt, dude was putting up quality stats. As far as where you rank him, that's up to you... I just thought that your reasoning of ranking Wade lower than Drexler, Iverson, West because he benefit from having Shaq on his team was not a good reason.

Maybe Drexler should not be above DWade but AI was MVP & had better longevity, West...come on buddy.

As far as Wade, sorry but if you're hurt...you're hurt. You're talking about ranking some of the greatest players in the league & if you havnt been playing or couldn't play to the best of your ability because you are hurt then sorry. If you don't want to count injuries then i'm going to rank Tracy McGrady's 4 good years above DWade.

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#122  Edited By Pharoh_Atem

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers:

If you don't consider MVPs then what do you judge by?

What a player does while on the court.

Championships are more of a team accomplishments & while they certainly count, Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman is not better than the former MVP Karl Malone.

Fair enough,that is exactly why I said Kareem and Magic winning more championships then Kobe really does make said person better then Kobe.

People give out MVPs to the player they believe to be the best of the current year.

But most of the time they give it to the best player on the team with the best record.

Sure there may be politics involved but in the end, Jordan won 5 of them, Kareem had 6 & Magic had 3.

Going by how you do it that means Kareem is better then Mike right?

Kobe played for 17 seasons and he was only considered to be the best player of the current year one time. Heck you can even throw in Finals MVPs if you want and that still gives him only 3 . I don't know how people can consider a player to be the greatest nba player to play in the nba when he was only considered to be the best 3 out of the 17 years he played.

Because MVP's is most of the time always goes to the best player on the best team tell me how did Steve Nash (who was never the best player in the NBA period) get MVP twice while the Mamba only got it once? MVP's does not measure the player on court play does.The fact that MJ only won it 6 times when he was the best player in the NBA most of the time pretty much proves my point that the MVP does not mean the best player for that year.

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#123  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@snarkybits said:

Let's not forget about Tracy McGrady.

Kobe's got nothing on him...

You mean let's not forget about the guy who isn't even in the league any more because he didn't take care of himself and became injury prone, a guy who couldn't start several years in a row on garbage teams, most seasons didn't outscore Kobe although that's all he was good for, the guy who was blamed for the Rockets not winning any championships in his era because he was a choke artist in the playoffs..right, Kobe has nothing on him.
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@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers:

Going by how you do it that means Kareem is better then Mike right?

Kobe played for 17 seasons and he was only considered to be the best player of the current year one time. Heck you can even throw in Finals MVPs if you want and that still gives him only 3 . I don't know how people can consider a player to be the greatest nba player to play in the nba when he was only considered to be the best 3 out of the 17 years he played.

Because MVP's is more always goes to the best player on the best team tell me how did Steve Nash (who was never the best player in the NBA period) get MVP twice while the Mamba only got it once? MVP's does not measure the player on court play does.The fact that MJ only won it 6 times when he was the best player in the NBA most of the time pretty much proves my point that the MVP does not mean the best player for that year.

I'm not going to argue against anyone who says MJ is better because MJ was hands down the best player on his team each time his Bulls won a championship, Kareem was not.

But you look at the longevity of Kareem (he beat Wilt & the Bad boys of Detroit for a championship), his skills (skyhook?), his college career (3 NCAA championships) and that to me puts him slightly above MJ. That & my purple & gold colored lenses.

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#125  Edited By MonsterStomp

@King Saturn said:

I wonder about these other guys in the league... like what about Dwayne Wade ? He is a SG, and we know Jordan and Kobe are over him... but in the history of the NBA who else is a better SG than D Wade ?

I think Wade is as good as Kobe imo. Kobe has a better overall career stat sheet, but like you said, Kobe hasn't been playing with other good players until this season actually. With Nash and Howard, I see Kobe's stats declining.

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#126  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@dccomicsrule2011: If you don't consider MVPs then what do you judge by? Championships are more of a team accomplishments & while they certainly count, Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman is not better than the former MVP Karl Malone. People give out MVPs to the player they believe to be the best of the current year. Sure there may be politics involved but in the end, Jordan won 5 of them, Kareem had 6 & Magic had 3.

Kobe played for 17 seasons and he was only considered to be the best player of the current year one time. Heck you can even throw in Finals MVPs if you want and that still gives him only 3 . I don't know how people can consider a player to be the greatest nba player to play in the nba when he was only considered to be the best 3 out of the 17 years he played.

I don't consider MVPs or Championships when you're comparing two players of a different era because the type and style of play was so different. To be honest some of the older guys that people call all-time greats, I don't think they would have even survived in the current era. I don't think the level of physical power and athleticism was there.
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@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Because MVP's is most of the time always goes to the best player on the best team tell me how did Steve Nash (who was never the best player in the NBA period) get MVP twice while the Mamba only got it once? MVP's does not measure the player on court play does.The fact that MJ only won it 6 times when he was the best player in the NBA most of the time pretty much proves my point that the MVP does not mean the best player for that year.

Sorry didn't mean to dodge the Nash question again but it's hard for me to say he didn't deserve it & I agree one of his should have belonged to Kobe. He was masterful, PHX was a great team, it was fun to watch and he clearly was the main reason behind it. It's hard for me to argue against someone who is probably the best shooter of all time and was having as many assists as he did. He deserved it.

But like I said, you have to consider everything, championships, mvps, records and right now I don't see Kobe being in the top 3 of all time. He needs 1 more championship to even be in the conversation of being GOAT

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#128  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@MonsterStomp said:

With Nash and Howard, I see Kobe's stats declining.

The didn't though. He's shooting at 45 pct. which is his career average, he's top 5 in scoring as always, and he averages between 5-6 assists and boards which has is also his career average.
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#129  Edited By MonsterStomp

@Vance Astro said:

@MonsterStomp said:

With Nash and Howard, I see Kobe's stats declining.

The didn't though. He's shooting at 45 pct. which is his career average, he's top 5 in scoring as always, and he averages between 5-6 assists and boards which has is also his career average.

Let me rephrase. I see Kobe's stats declining over time. Plus Wade averages 48%, averages 5 rebounds and 6 assists also for his career while having a large career with Bron Bron.

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@Vance Astro said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@dccomicsrule2011: If you don't consider MVPs then what do you judge by? Championships are more of a team accomplishments & while they certainly count, Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman is not better than the former MVP Karl Malone. People give out MVPs to the player they believe to be the best of the current year. Sure there may be politics involved but in the end, Jordan won 5 of them, Kareem had 6 & Magic had 3.

Kobe played for 17 seasons and he was only considered to be the best player of the current year one time. Heck you can even throw in Finals MVPs if you want and that still gives him only 3 . I don't know how people can consider a player to be the greatest nba player to play in the nba when he was only considered to be the best 3 out of the 17 years he played.

I don't consider MVPs or Championships when you're comparing two players of a different era because the type and style of play was so different. To be honest some of the older guys that people call all-time greats, I don't think they would have even survived in the current era. I don't think the level of physical power and athleticism was there.

Maybe those old timers couldn't play now but when they played, they made sure they were the best & they did so by getting MVPs, racking up the numbers & championships. The accolades back up their status of being the best of their time. Jordan didn't let Karl Malone, Hakeem, David Robinson, Clyde, Barkley get the best of him for that many years. He was able to stake claim to being the best of his generation.

Kobe has not. He had to share it with Shaq, Duncan, Lebron & the accolades backs up that statement

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#131  Edited By cmyers1980

@King Saturn said:

Kobe Bryant is the Best NBA Player of the 21st Century... but Not Overall. I think Michael Jordan is still the Greatest.
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#132  Edited By ssejllenrad
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#133  Edited By ssejllenrad

An even better video:

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#134  Edited By dtschemmel

@Vance Astro: A KD respecter. I hate KD haters.

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#135  Edited By King_Saturn
@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

From 2004-2011, Wade never averaged less that 24 points per game... so Wade has consistently played at a high level... the only reason Wade has dropped down in stats the past few years is because he has to share the ball with the Greatest Basketball Player on the Planet ( Lebron James )... after Shaq left... Kobe never played with a player of the caliber of Lebron James.

Shaq was there for 3 years but in reality they only had 2 good years together. Lebron has been with Wade for 3 seasons.

So let's say Wade has been the man for 7 out of his 10 year career. In those 7 years how many of them were great? I count 2 & 1/2, his playoff run as a rookie with him leading the way & his next 2 years.

Then he stumbled until Lebron came along & now he plays 2nd fiddle while trying to fight through injuries for most of his career.

I don't know what you want me to say when I rank him where I did. Are you trying to tell me that Wade is the 3rd best SG to ever play the game?

Wade's only lackluster season was his Rookie Season in terms of numbers... even the years he was Hurt, dude was putting up quality stats. As far as where you rank him, that's up to you... I just thought that your reasoning of ranking Wade lower than Drexler, Iverson, West because he benefit from having Shaq on his team was not a good reason.

Maybe Drexler should not be above DWade but AI was MVP & had better longevity, West...come on buddy.

As far as Wade, sorry but if you're hurt...you're hurt. You're talking about ranking some of the greatest players in the league & if you havnt been playing or couldn't play to the best of your ability because you are hurt then sorry. If you don't want to count injuries then i'm going to rank Tracy McGrady's 4 good years above DWade.

Allen Iverson was Great... but you have to remember as well dude was literally the Only Scoring Option for the Sixers for many of the Years he played... Yeah, he won the MVP one year. Overall, I still don't think Iverson is much better than Wade though if at all. As far as Wade being hurt... you do realize that even the seasons Wade was hurt he was still averging 25 - 26 ppg... so it was not like his game was completely off when he got hurt. Also, you are forgetting the fact that Wade's game has not fallen off... it's just he has to share the ball with Lebron and Bosh in Miami now. As far as Jerry West, I never said Wade was better than West... just that the reasoning you made for it was off though Wade might not be that far behind Jerry West either. Now your argument for Tracy McGrady wont hold up because T-Mac had 7 good seasons then his numbers dropped off dramatically when he got hurt... Wade is still averaging over 21 points per game and he has to share the ball with Lebron, even when Wade was hurt his numbers was Good as I previously stated.  
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#136  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@dtschemmel said:

@Vance Astro: A KD respecter. I hate KD haters.

KD is my 3rd favorite player behind Kobe & Rondo.
 

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

Maybe those old timers couldn't play now but when they played, they made sure they were the best & they did so by getting MVPs, racking up the numbers & championships. The accolades back up their status of being the best of their time. Jordan didn't let Karl Malone, Hakeem, David Robinson, Clyde, Barkley get the best of him for that many years. He was able to stake claim to being the best of his generation.

Kobe has not. He had to share it with Shaq, Duncan, Lebron & the accolades backs up that statement

But they did those things against a different level of talent which was my point. None of those players you named are better than Shaq,Duncan or Lebron, which then proves my point. Kobe had a harder time making it to the top of MVP ladder because of the level of talent he was playing against. This is why I don't like comparing eras because people only look specifically at stats and don't bother looking at who was in the league at the time.
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#137  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@MonsterStomp said:

The didn't though. He's shooting at 45 pct. which is his career average, he's top 5 in scoring as always, and he averages between 5-6 assists and boards which has is also his career average.

Let me rephrase. I see Kobe's stats declining over time. Plus Wade averages 48%, averages 5 rebounds and 6 assists also for his career while having a large career with Bron Bron.

Why are you throwing in the thing about Wade. I didn't object to anything involving Dwayne Wade in fact I'd say at this current moment, Wade is better than Kobe but I don't know about Kobe's numbers declining over time. He's averaged at least 25 since the 90's and his highest scoring seasons came when he actually had better working pieces in the offense. The only numbers that will probably drop is his assists if Nash can ever effectively fit into the offense and play his game. Nash doesn't shoot alot so Kobe will still have to drop at least 25 even if Dwight starts scoring more. Even in Pau and Bynum's best years as Lakers that didn't take away from Kobe scoring.
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#138  Edited By King_Saturn
I got an interesting question... where do you folks think Kevin Garnett ranks among the All Time Power Forwards in NBA History ?
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#139  Edited By pooty

KG is WAY up there. Didn't he lead his team in every single stat for at least a season or more? put him on the Spurs and he has as many rings as Duncan.

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#140  Edited By King_Saturn
@pooty said:
KG is WAY up there. Didn't he lead his team in every single stat for at least a season or more? put him on the Spurs and he has as many rings as Duncan.
Okay, so who is ahead of Garnett then ?
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#141  Edited By .Ajax.
@Batnandez said:

wario 1988 is the dumbest poster in the history of forums.

No he's top 10 at best, he has so many flaws as a player that MJ didn't including...

Kobe disrupts the offence and goes into mamba mode.

He's an extremely overrated and lazy help defender.

Gets beaten by quicker younger players.

Will chuck up last second shots always even if the coach draws up a play it doesn't matter.

Bad teammate.

Takes way to many isos and has never CONSISTENTLY gotten teammates involved due to never letting the offense set. Assists are only part of the story.

And no he isn't the best Laker we've seen. Kareem and Magic were much better and did anyone forget about Wilt?

Thank you for saying everything I was going to say, saves me to trouble of typing it up lol!
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@Vance Astro said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballerssaid:

Maybe those old timers couldn't play now but when they played, they made sure they were the best & they did so by getting MVPs, racking up the numbers & championships. The accolades back up their status of being the best of their time. Jordan didn't let Karl Malone, Hakeem, David Robinson, Clyde, Barkley get the best of him for that many years. He was able to stake claim to being the best of his generation.

Kobe has not. He had to share it with Shaq, Duncan, Lebron & the accolades backs up that statement

But they did those things against a different level of talent which was my point. None of those players you named are better than Shaq,Duncan or Lebron, which then proves my point. Kobe had a harder time making it to the top of MVP ladder because of the level of talent he was playing against. This is why I don't like comparing eras because people only look specifically at stats and don't bother looking at who was in the league at the time.

Oh come on now....Hakeem is not on the same level or better? Karl Malone? Barkley? Please. Those guys would dominate right now. John Stockton right now would be an elite PG.

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@King Saturn said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

From 2004-2011, Wade never averaged less that 24 points per game... so Wade has consistently played at a high level... the only reason Wade has dropped down in stats the past few years is because he has to share the ball with the Greatest Basketball Player on the Planet ( Lebron James )... after Shaq left... Kobe never played with a player of the caliber of Lebron James.

Shaq was there for 3 years but in reality they only had 2 good years together. Lebron has been with Wade for 3 seasons.

So let's say Wade has been the man for 7 out of his 10 year career. In those 7 years how many of them were great? I count 2 & 1/2, his playoff run as a rookie with him leading the way & his next 2 years.

Then he stumbled until Lebron came along & now he plays 2nd fiddle while trying to fight through injuries for most of his career.

I don't know what you want me to say when I rank him where I did. Are you trying to tell me that Wade is the 3rd best SG to ever play the game?

Wade's only lackluster season was his Rookie Season in terms of numbers... even the years he was Hurt, dude was putting up quality stats. As far as where you rank him, that's up to you... I just thought that your reasoning of ranking Wade lower than Drexler, Iverson, West because he benefit from having Shaq on his team was not a good reason.

Maybe Drexler should not be above DWade but AI was MVP & had better longevity, West...come on buddy.

As far as Wade, sorry but if you're hurt...you're hurt. You're talking about ranking some of the greatest players in the league & if you havnt been playing or couldn't play to the best of your ability because you are hurt then sorry. If you don't want to count injuries then i'm going to rank Tracy McGrady's 4 good years above DWade.

Allen Iverson was Great... but you have to remember as well dude was literally the Only Scoring Option for the Sixers for many of the Years he played... Yeah, he won the MVP one year. Overall, I still don't think Iverson is much better than Wade though if at all. As far as Wade being hurt... you do realize that even the seasons Wade was hurt he was still averging 25 - 26 ppg... so it was not like his game was completely off when he got hurt. Also, you are forgetting the fact that Wade's game has not fallen off... it's just he has to share the ball with Lebron and Bosh in Miami now. As far as Jerry West, I never said Wade was better than West... just that the reasoning you made for it was off though Wade might not be that far behind Jerry West either. Now your argument for Tracy McGrady wont hold up because T-Mac had 7 good seasons then his numbers dropped off dramatically when he got hurt... Wade is still averaging over 21 points per game and he has to share the ball with Lebron, even when Wade was hurt his numbers was Good as I previously stated.

I don't truly believe McGrady is better than Wade, my point is health & longevity should matter too which is one of the reasons why I don't have Wade that high up. It doesn't matter if you're good if you can't play. When you're talking about GOAT, every single thing has to be accounted for. Would you rather have Wade for 50 games or Reggie Miller for 80? I'll take Reggie.

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#144  Edited By vance_astro  Moderator
@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

Oh come on now....Hakeem is not on the same level or better? Karl Malone? Barkley? Please. Those guys would dominate right now. John Stockton right now would be an elite PG.

What is any of this based on? You think Hakeem is on the same level of better than who? Shaq or Tim Duncan? Are you out of your mind? You think Barkley or Malone are comparable to Lebron James? You have to be kidding me. Those guys would dominate? Dominate what? Barkley wouldn't even be the best PF in his division right now. He definitely wouldn't be the best PF of this era. Duncan,Kevin Love,Dirk Novitzki,& KG are all better. Same goes for Malone. Stockton would be a good PG right now but because PG is a weak position there aren't many great PG's in the league or many that even play the PG position most of them are SG's forced to play PG. Like Westbrook.
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#145  Edited By pooty

@King Saturn: I don't put anyone above KG. I would take KG over Malone/Barkley. I put Duncan just a hair beneath KG because KG is quicker and able to defend more positions. I want to say KG is the best ever but I think I'm forgetting people

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#146  Edited By Batnandez

@Vance Astro: Do you even watch basketball? No good pg's? Are you serious. You know Tony Parker, Chris Paul, Rondo when he wasn't hurt. This era definitely has combo guards, but there are good pg's in the league. Dream is better than any center alive right now period. Ask any hall of famer who would be on there starting five and they all pick dream. Same goes for Malone? You're really just showing plain ignorance. It's a toss up between all of those pf's minus Duncan. It's silly to think that Malone wouldn't dominate now, same with Chuck. Malone was guarding Yao in his late years and KG's decline started in his 30's. And none of this "Malone never won a championship and he played with Stockton" he never played with a team like the 08 celtics.

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#147  Edited By King_Saturn
@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

@Shamelesslysupportinaznballers said:

@King Saturn said:

From 2004-2011, Wade never averaged less that 24 points per game... so Wade has consistently played at a high level... the only reason Wade has dropped down in stats the past few years is because he has to share the ball with the Greatest Basketball Player on the Planet ( Lebron James )... after Shaq left... Kobe never played with a player of the caliber of Lebron James.

Shaq was there for 3 years but in reality they only had 2 good years together. Lebron has been with Wade for 3 seasons.

So let's say Wade has been the man for 7 out of his 10 year career. In those 7 years how many of them were great? I count 2 & 1/2, his playoff run as a rookie with him leading the way & his next 2 years.

Then he stumbled until Lebron came along & now he plays 2nd fiddle while trying to fight through injuries for most of his career.

I don't know what you want me to say when I rank him where I did. Are you trying to tell me that Wade is the 3rd best SG to ever play the game?

Wade's only lackluster season was his Rookie Season in terms of numbers... even the years he was Hurt, dude was putting up quality stats. As far as where you rank him, that's up to you... I just thought that your reasoning of ranking Wade lower than Drexler, Iverson, West because he benefit from having Shaq on his team was not a good reason.

Maybe Drexler should not be above DWade but AI was MVP & had better longevity, West...come on buddy.

As far as Wade, sorry but if you're hurt...you're hurt. You're talking about ranking some of the greatest players in the league & if you havnt been playing or couldn't play to the best of your ability because you are hurt then sorry. If you don't want to count injuries then i'm going to rank Tracy McGrady's 4 good years above DWade.

Allen Iverson was Great... but you have to remember as well dude was literally the Only Scoring Option for the Sixers for many of the Years he played... Yeah, he won the MVP one year. Overall, I still don't think Iverson is much better than Wade though if at all. As far as Wade being hurt... you do realize that even the seasons Wade was hurt he was still averging 25 - 26 ppg... so it was not like his game was completely off when he got hurt. Also, you are forgetting the fact that Wade's game has not fallen off... it's just he has to share the ball with Lebron and Bosh in Miami now. As far as Jerry West, I never said Wade was better than West... just that the reasoning you made for it was off though Wade might not be that far behind Jerry West either. Now your argument for Tracy McGrady wont hold up because T-Mac had 7 good seasons then his numbers dropped off dramatically when he got hurt... Wade is still averaging over 21 points per game and he has to share the ball with Lebron, even when Wade was hurt his numbers was Good as I previously stated.

I don't truly believe McGrady is better than Wade, my point is health & longevity should matter too which is one of the reasons why I don't have Wade that high up. It doesn't matter if you're good if you can't play. When you're talking about GOAT, every single thing has to be accounted for. Would you rather have Wade for 50 games or Reggie Miller for 80? I'll take Reggie.

Wade was only hurt for a few seasons and both seasons he put up quality numbers... Wade has also had seasons after his Major Injuries where he played the majority of the season... and who said Wade was the GOAT ? We already know that Kobe and Jordan is better at SG than Wade so we are talking about how he ranks among the other great SG's in NBA history. Also, I will take Wade 2008-09 season when he was coming back from those injuries over any Reggie Miller season. Miller never averaged 30 points per game and 7 assists per game with 2 steals per game and 1 block per game for a full season... but Wade has and he played more than 50 games that year too. 
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Want to here the difference between Kobe & time?

Time passes.

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MAZAHS117

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#149  Edited By MAZAHS117

Wow. Greatest ever?!..imo Kobe is a top 10 all-timer, MAYBE even top 5, but Jordan is still the G.O.A.T. that everyone is chasing

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@King Saturn said:

Wade was only hurt for a few seasons and both seasons he put up quality numbers... Wade has also had seasons after his Major Injuries where he played the majority of the season... and who said Wade was the GOAT ? We already know that Kobe and Jordan is better at SG than Wade so we are talking about how he ranks among the other great SG's in NBA history. Also, I will take Wade 2008-09 season when he was coming back from those injuries over any Reggie Miller season. Miller never averaged 30 points per game and 7 assists per game with 2 steals per game and 1 block per game for a full season... but Wade has and he played more than 50 games that year too.

To each their own. I personally would rather have a great player who is there game after game helping you reach a higher seed than a great player who may not be there and you now have to fight for a playoff seed despite the godly numbers. & sorry i didn't mean to accuse you that you said Wade was GOAT but these are all greats & to me, this is 1 of the requirements that sets them apart. Games played to me is just as important of a stat as 30ppg.

@King Saturn said:

I got an interesting question... where do you folks think Kevin Garnett ranks among the All Time Power Forwards in NBA History ?

I have a hard time ranking KG as a PF. He came in as a SF, made his name as a PF but he should have had always been a C but he refused to be labeled as a C just like Duncan & Jermaine O'neil.

But as a PF in the modern era, I put him behind only Duncan. If you lump him in with guys like Hakeem, Kareem etc like he was suppose to, I wouldn't put him in top 5