Keep religion AND atheism out of mainstream comics

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redbird3rdboywonder

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Even though I should care, I don't

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kasino

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so we can keep the Specter/Celestials/Presence/Living Tribunal/Thor etc. just don't mention Christianity? I'm ok with that. Long as mention of "God"(not Christian God, just the word/title God) gets to stay. Seems fair.

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SpitfirePanda

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Keep politics out. Religion and atheism are ok to discuss imo, just don't go overboard and treat both sides with respect.

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Spidey_Jackson

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I agree to an extent. Leave Christianity and Atheism, but just be respectful.

Beata

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The_Deathstroker

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Spidey_Jackson

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magnablue

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honestly I really wouldnt care if I saw charachters praying to a god. I only way I would be annoyed is if it started saying that atheist's are stupid. I don't think anyone should be calling other people's religions stupid. I like the idea of people discussing their religious views but they should never start arguing about it

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nefarious

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*Sigh*

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force_echo

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#59  Edited By force_echo

@spitfirepanda said:

Keep politics out. Religion and atheism are ok to discuss imo, just don't go overboard and treat both sides with respect.

Yeah I agree, let's just leave literally every currently relevant social and economic theme out of comics, because comic readers aren't mature enough to read other people's opinions without getting a rage aneurysm. V for Vendetta? OUT. Watchmen? OUT. Astro City? OUT. Any artistic critique of any political situation should just be censored because... Dear God, what if they OFFEND SOMEONE?!

And people still wonder why comics are viewed as inferior and immature art form.

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SpitfirePanda

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#60  Edited By SpitfirePanda

@force_echo: And you're getting all worked up because…? There's a big difference between politics and social themes. Politics, contrary to popular belief, is created by political groups with agendas. A social theme portrays society, but it doesn't have an agenda. A person with an agenda might use a social theme to make people draw the same conclusions they have, but this is unethical.

Example: a writer who grew up with nothing might decide to describe their life growing up, but the stories are all that are given and they speak for themselves. The person leaves off any opinions beyond 'this is what I was thinking at the time' and lets the reader draw conclusions about society for themselves. Politics draws a conclusion from the beginning in order to fit an agenda. A person with a political agenda uses the story and its themes to lead the reader to come to the same conclusion that they've come to. It's a form of manipulation that is employed everywhere, from media, to comedy, to TV shows, to books. Facts might be altered, exaggerated, or out right lied about to fit that goal.

What I'm saying is that we can have the themes without the agenda. Politics always brings an agenda, and it always poisons the air and damages potential debate because people who have an agenda most often adhere to it blindly, ignoring the points others make whether they be good or bad.

As for why you're upset that comics are viewed as an "inferior and immature art form"… I don't really know why you care how others view comics. It's a waste of time to worry that much.

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Pperspectiveandreality

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@force_echo:

OP isn't talking about creator owned stuff.

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force_echo

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#62  Edited By force_echo

@spitfirepanda said:

@force_echo: And you're getting all worked up because…? There's a big difference between politics and social themes. Politics, contrary to popular belief, is created by political groups with agendas. A social theme portrays society, but it doesn't have an agenda. A person with an agenda might use a social theme to make people draw the same conclusions they have, but this is unethical.

Example: a writer who grew up with nothing might decide to describe their life growing up, but the stories are all that are given and they speak for themselves. The person leaves off any opinions beyond 'this is what I was thinking at the time' and lets the reader draw conclusions about society for themselves. Politics draws a conclusion from the beginning in order to fit an agenda. A person with a political agenda uses the story and its themes to lead the reader to come to the same conclusion that they've come to. It's a form of manipulation that is employed everywhere, from media, to comedy, to TV shows, to books. Facts might be altered, exaggerated, or out right lied about to fit that goal.

What I'm saying is that we can have the themes without the agenda. Politics always brings an agenda, and it always poisons the air and damages potential debate because people who have an agenda most often adhere to it blindly, ignoring the points others make whether they be good or bad.

As for why you're upset that comics are viewed as an "inferior and immature art form"… I don't really know why you care how others view comics. It's a waste of time to worry that much.

And so you don't think comics should address politics at all? You don't think Alan Moore should have included rightist tendencies in V for Vendetta? What about Transmetropolitan? Green Arrow/Green Lantern? All of these books are immensely important comics that, guess what, show biased and opinionated views about social issues. If you're not a complete dunce, you can actually take these messages with a grain of salt and see what the author is trying to say. Art is an expression of self, and thus will always communicate a personal view, any portrayal without a personal investment or bias is clinical and detached. Any portrayal of a social issue is going to include a bias, and you would be kidding yourself if you thought the author didn't put it in there to convince others about his or her point of view, but guess what? You can entertain opinions without agreeing with them. A wise man once said that that was the mark of an intelligent person. One of my favorite books of all time is Cry, the Beloved Country, I don't agree with some of the things the author says about South African society, but guess what? It was a magnificent book BECAUSE he put his personal views and thoughts into it, not in spite of.

I'm not upset because I know there are comics out there that do the things you're against-- putting politics in the comic. I'm just commenting on how your opinion has the potential to give other people the wrong idea about this art form.

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WarlordEternal

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@bumpyboo said:

Here's a radical idea: let artists express themselves in any way they damn well want and if you don't like it, do your own or don't buy it or just, ya know, shut up XD

This!

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SpitfirePanda

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@force_echo: You're still getting politics and social themes mixed up. Social themes, when used purely in the descriptive sense, show society for what it is without leading the audience down any certain path. Those are perfectly fine. There's nothing emotionally detached about it. What it does is let the audience feel emotions on their own, and different people will draw different conclusions and feel different emotions. This leads to constructive debate. Politics exists for the sake of manipulation.

As far as bias, that's fine if people use it in their work. I can't control them, I can't stop them, and I don't really want to. But there's so much manipulation going on out there that it gets tiresome. I don't want to read about Captain America telling me that a political party is evil because that's the writer's opinion, and I'm not interested in that. If Storm comes across a big, evil cooperation that's fine. Those exist. But it's a bad idea to paint all corporations as evil, because they aren't. Lazy writers do this through broad generalizations, though. It happens all the time, and not just in comics.

However, if the book's sole purpose is to point out certain political arguments then that's fine. I probably won't do more than skim through it, but at least I understand that it's a form of bias manipulation. It's the people who don't understand this who cause problems. They take it as the gospel truth, search it out, and adhere to it blindly. They begin hating the other side, which harms potential debate and the chance for two opposing sides to come to friendly terms with each other.

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force_echo

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@force_echo: You're still getting politics and social themes mixed up. Social themes, when used purely in the descriptive sense, show society for what it is without leading the audience down any certain path. Those are perfectly fine. There's nothing emotionally detached about it. What it does is let the audience feel emotions on their own, and different people will draw different conclusions and feel different emotions. This leads to constructive debate. Politics exists for the sake of manipulation.

As far as bias, that's fine if people use it in their work. I can't control them, I can't stop them, and I don't really want to. But there's so much manipulation going on out there that it gets tiresome. I don't want to read about Captain America telling me that a political party is evil because that's the writer's opinion, and I'm not interested in that. If Storm comes across a big, evil cooperation that's fine. Those exist. But it's a bad idea to paint all corporations as evil, because they aren't. Lazy writers do this through broad generalizations, though. It happens all the time, and not just in comics.

However, if the book's sole purpose is to point out certain political arguments then that's fine. I probably won't do more than skim through it, but at least I understand that it's a form of bias manipulation. It's the people who don't understand this who cause problems. They take it as the gospel truth, search it out, and adhere to it blindly. They begin hating the other side, which harms potential debate and the chance for two opposing sides to come to friendly terms with each other.

No, you're making false distinctions. Your political stance is simply a viewpoint on a social or economic issue that coincides with that of a political party, that's a person's politics. So when authors put that into their work, which they will, they are basically stating their opinions. For some reason you think politics just means insidious thoughts of manipulation and overt propaganda, which is ridiculous. Not every "political" work plays out like a TV ad. There's something said about letting the audience feel emotions on your own. It's nice, but it means that you'll never be exposed to any opinion outside of your own head.

I consider myself a strong Democrat, but I can still enjoy The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand. That book is literally one huge endorsement for extreme right-wing objectivism, but I can respect the way she makes the argument in an interesting and coherent manner, and the book even caused me to look at a lot of issues in my life through a different light. I'm still a Democrat, but I, and a lot of left leaning people, like the book for what it is-- a clever and intelligent elucidation of an opinion. By refusing to read "political" work, you're basically boxing yourself in to only middling, noncommittal viewpoints, and missing out on a great deal of interesting philosophy as a result. If you can't read political-slanted work with your thinking cap on, that's fine, but your assertion that writers should keep "politics" out of fiction constrains everyone in the same way. The Fountainhead (or something like Grapes of Wrath on the opposite end of the political spectrum) wouldn't be an interesting work of art if it wasn't for it's political opinions. At least, it would be less so. Yes, the book's sole purpose was to point out certain political arguments. If you don't want to read it for that reason, then I feel sorry for you, because the book is a masterpiece IMO, but saying that all politics shouldn't be in fiction, whether it be comics, movies, books, games, etc. is ridiculous.

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deactivated-097092725

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I guess perspective has a hand in this because in my experience, I feel mainstream comics cater to Christianity more-so than atheism. I mean, people have already mentioned Daredevil and I can probably find lots of examples where superheroes have brought up God, especially during times of extreme crisis or personal introspection. Even with the new Ms. Marvel, Islam is getting some time on panel.

Comics is a tough medium to be overly critical of, in my opinion, when it comes to religion. We have Thor and Wonder Woman and Galactus, haha. If it does deeply offend you, then you could reflect that by not purchasing the comic any more. Outright banning or censoring in any official capacity would be a huge step backwards though for artistic freedom of expression. I would never, ever support that.

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Bruxae

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@bumpyboo said:

Here's a radical idea: let artists express themselves in any way they damn well want and if you don't like it, do your own or don't buy it or just, ya know, shut up XD

^ This is a pretty good idea. I think it's more important that an artist get's free hands to create a story according to his vision rather then fan service.

I am curious though, @ OP, what comics has been putting religion down? I don't recall it happening in any of the comics I am reading.

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force_echo

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If it does deeply offend you, then you could reflect that by not purchasing the comic any more. Outright banning or censoring in any official capacity would be a huge step backwards though for artistic freedom of expression. I would never, ever support that.

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Pokeysteve

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@pokeysteve: Not ALL of us are naive.

Beata

Those three religions I mentioned are FULL of inconsistencies and holes and no one from those said religions question them. That's naive. Religion is more of a crutch for most people. Something to comfort them when they need a friend and I can understand that.

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JediXMan

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#70 JediXMan  Moderator

Some characters are religious, some are not. It's rather simple.

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JediXMan

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#71 JediXMan  Moderator
@bumpyboo said:

Here's a radical idea: let artists express themselves in any way they damn well want and if you don't like it, do your own or don't buy it or just, ya know, shut up XD

Also, this.

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kyrees

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@bumpyboo said:

Here's a radical idea: let artists express themselves in any way they damn well want and if you don't like it, do your own or don't buy it or just, ya know, shut up XD

this pretty much sum up everything i want to say.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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#73  Edited By Jonny_Anonymous

@bumpyboo:

Express yourself in creator owned projects. Hell express yoruself in mainstream. Just not in a way that alienates anyone. Superman, Spider-man Hulk, Batmn etc. are supposed to be for every single person. Not just people who subscribe to one belif system. And if your expression can't sell or do what you want it to doin something creator owned then maybe you shouldnt be writing if you cant come up with an interesting story of your own.

News flash dude, you can still be religious and like atheist characters just like atheists can enjoy religious characters.

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judasnixon

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@bumpyboo said:

Here's a radical idea: let artists express themselves in any way they damn well want and if you don't like it, do your own or don't buy it or just, ya know, shut up XD

You are my favorite international art thief.........

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Lvenger

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There are so many posts I want to quote here that get straight to debunking the OP's point exceptionally well. Too many to put in one post. In any case, comics are just as acceptable a medium to discuss mature and serious topics as philosophy or politics are. You can't try and pander to every group in the mainstream audience, you have to take risks and make controversial points people might not have thought of before or liked. And I like seeing that in all comics, both The Big Two and in creator owned projects. The creators should be allowed to express themselves however they want to in order to tell their story.

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deactivated-5a162dd41dd64

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Do what you want in Icon, Vertigo, Image or indie stuff but in mainstream comics that should be for everyone they should isolate no one.

Hah, good luck with that.

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Billy Batson

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@joygirl said:

Gail Simone could never have made the first openly transgender character in a place people could actually see.

That's not true..

BB

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TheCheeseStabber

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#78  Edited By TheCheeseStabber

@bumpyboo said:

Here's a radical idea: let artists express themselves in any way they damn well want and if you don't like it, do your own or don't buy it or just, ya know, shut up XD

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SpitfirePanda

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@force_echo: Fine dude, whatever you say. Yeah, I never have my thinking cap on. That's why my distinctions are 'false'. And calling me a dunce and claiming that I'm boxed in is totally mature on your part.

Actually, I think we just approach this differently. I do search out political view points, but not in comic books. I read a lot of news articles and the news media is always slanted in a certain way. Ayn Rand is interesting, but I stopped reading Atlus Shrugged once I understood where she was going. It didn't take long, because I'd heard similar scenarios from pundits on the right who no doubt were inspired by Rand. For some reason, you want to be preached to in a medium that is supposed to be about having fun. But that's your prerogative, and I'm not going to judge. I'm simply not going to join you in that stance. I don't mind a bit of political leaning, so long as it's eventually balanced out and not preachy. You chose to get upset about two simple sentances and you painted me into a corner, so for the sake of educating you I played the part when in my first post when I probably shouldn't have. I still stand by those distinctions, but now I see that I'll get nowhere with you.

So, lets agree to disagree, because that's what adults do. Either way, I get bored with debates where neither side has anything new to add, and we're both saying the same things over and over so… take care.

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mrdecepticonleader

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@bumpyboo said:

Here's a radical idea: let artists express themselves in any way they damn well want and if you don't like it, do your own or don't buy it or just, ya know, shut up XD

This!

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Dragonborn_CT

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@bumpyboo said:

Here's a radical idea: let artists express themselves in any way they damn well want and if you don't like it, do your own or don't buy it or just, ya know, shut up XD

*high-fives

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Spidey_Jackson

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#84  Edited By Spidey_Jackson

@pokeysteve: You sound very disrespectful and just downright ignorant. I can't believe you have the nerve to call an entire group naive when you yourself are no different. Smh.

Beata.

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kgb725

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Marvel has shown all religions/Gods to be active

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CainPanell

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I for one, enjoy seeing different writer's opinions.

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force_echo

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#87  Edited By force_echo

@spitfirepanda: Educating me? Lol, educating me about what? About how every book with a pointed message is worthless and boring? I think you're the one who needs to be "educated". Again, I don't know why you put down Atlas Shrugged, but the end all be all book isn't the objectivism, it's the way she interprets it and puts it to life through real life characters. The Fountainhead did it so humanely, that I felt touched by a message that I had previously disregarded. I still didn't buy it, but the book made me see life through the eyes of someone completely different, and that's the true power of literature.

I didn't read that book because I like Fox News people preaching their political views at me-- like you seem to think. I read it because it's an interesting illustration on another viewpoint besides mine, an empathetic illustration. You're right, listening to someone preach about something is boring. Reading an anti-smoking pamphlet about how smoking is bad for you is boring. Reading a good, interesting novel about how a man died from smoking can be interesting. Yes, the message is still there, the same message as the pamphlet. But the beauty in it is the empathetic manner that the message reaches a reader.

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consolemaster001

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#88  Edited By consolemaster001

Just enjoy the comic.

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GreatCaesarsGhost

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I like subtlety with religious beliefs of characters, without being hit over the head with it.... Unless it's mofo USAGENT telling Ares, Thor, or Hercules that they're not Gods.

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Pokeysteve

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@pokeysteve: You sound very disrespectful and just downright ignorant. I can't believe you have the nerve to call an entire group naive when you yourself are no different. Smh.

Beata.

An entire group of people that used to burn people alive for seeing things different. If that isn't naive than what is? I have christian and catholic friends so don't make it a big deal.

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TylerDurden7272

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#91  Edited By TylerDurden7272
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russellmania77

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Sounds boring.

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PrinceAragorn1

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Assman

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@fallschirmjager: In comics I don't mind, shouldn't be added in Comicbook movies, I could imagine MOS being played in Saudia Arabia and the people there stoning the screen.

Kinda weird since most Comicbook characters contradict religions.

Reality contradicts religion

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SpitfirePanda

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#95  Edited By SpitfirePanda

@force_echo: You're a sad, angry little troll. Don't take things so seriously man, and try to be a little more polite and understanding. You'll make more friends that way :)

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swordmasterD

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Please take a chill pill OP, it's not the end of the world if a fictional character offends you.

What if you're a world leader who reads a comic is offended, attacks america, causes WW3 via the same attack whuch causes the end of the world?

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Assman

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#97  Edited By Assman

I agree to an extent. Leave Christianity and Atheism, but just be respectful.

Beata

Respect is earned.

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Jan_Valker

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#98  Edited By Jan_Valker

@swordmasterd said:

@knightsofdarkness2 said:

Please take a chill pill OP, it's not the end of the world if a fictional character offends you.

What if you're a world leader who reads a comic is offended, attacks america, causes WW3 via the same attack whuch causes the end of the world?

Man, if somebody really started a world war because of a comic he's at least mentally retarded.

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kyrees

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@swordmasterd said:

@knightsofdarkness2 said:

Please take a chill pill OP, it's not the end of the world if a fictional character offends you.

What if you're a world leader who reads a comic is offended, attacks america, causes WW3 via the same attack whuch causes the end of the world?

Man, if somebody really started a world war because of a comic he's at least mentally retarded.

north korean leaders would beg to differ.

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Jan_Valker

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@kyrees said:

@jan_valker said:

@swordmasterd said:

@knightsofdarkness2 said:

Please take a chill pill OP, it's not the end of the world if a fictional character offends you.

What if you're a world leader who reads a comic is offended, attacks america, causes WW3 via the same attack whuch causes the end of the world?

Man, if somebody really started a world war because of a comic he's at least mentally retarded.

north korean leaders would beg to differ.

Yeah, he's dumb, but nobody in that high position can be THAT dumb. And let's not forget that often dictators are actually puppets of the military shadow governement behind them.