#1 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio
#2 Posted by JonSmith (3996 posts) - - Show Bio

#3 Edited by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

XD yeah my first reaction too

#4 Posted by Dark_Vengeance_ (14683 posts) - - Show Bio

#5 Edited by Pyrogram (38122 posts) - - Show Bio

Maths thread?

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#6 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkKnightDetective: @Pyrogram:

I just needed an explanation for it. There are people here that argued the physics in comics so I would expect some people to have some Idea about it. People here even argue the physics of Flashes infinite mass punch and Sentry lacking power of 1000 suns is a hyperbole since it has never been demonstrated in feats even though this is fiction. Also, this will help me gain knowledge on the nature on infinity so that I can better explain the power of some heroes such as the WWH's Strength or Superman's ability to gain infinite mass

#7 Posted by guttridgeb (4832 posts) - - Show Bio

There is a lot of things that seem impossible in maths. Try not thinking about it too much, it'll save you from many headaches :P

#8 Posted by BumpyBoo (9168 posts) - - Show Bio

@salamatsabi: Don't be discouraged - it has been a while since I did this kind of maths so can't really help you out either but, I hope you get your answer :)

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#9 Posted by SC (13092 posts) - - Show Bio

Uhm okay what kind of explanation are you looking for sorry? Do you have any specific questions, or any points that were of particular interest?

As far as comics well often fans abilities to speculate on characters actions and abilities can outmatch writers abilities which can cause discrepancies. Then again not all fans theories and ideas are as sound as others, or as creative, so can depend. Do you have any specific questions?

Oh and well see some fans will say hyperbole, but another issue is definitions. When a writer uses a term that could have many broad definitions. Like the Sentry and 1000 suns, or million suns thing. I mean he generates that much power each second? He has the potential to generate that much power if he applies his power at maximum? He generates that much internally constantly? Lots of questions, most of such questions not probably considered by the writer whose job is to make a good comic not an accurate comic.

Moderator
#10 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio
: @guttridgeb said:

There is a lot of things that seem impossible in maths. Try not thinking about it too much, it'll save you from many headaches :P

Nah the headaches aside it's an awesome subject if you can stomach it

@BumpyBoo said:

@salamatsabi: Don't be discouraged - it has been a while since I did this kind of maths so can't really help you out either but, I hope you get your answer :)

I hope I do too

@SC said:

Uhm okay what kind of explanation are you looking for sorry? Do you have any specific questions, or any points that were of particular interest?

As far as comics well often fans abilities to speculate on characters actions and abilities can outmatch writers abilities which can cause discrepancies. Then again not all fans theories and ideas are as sound as others, or as creative, so can depend. Do you have any specific questions?

Oh and well see some fans will say hyperbole, but another issue is definitions. When a writer uses a term that could have many broad definitions. Like the Sentry and 1000 suns, or million suns thing. I mean he generates that much power each second? He has the potential to generate that much power if he applies his power at maximum? He generates that much internally constantly? Lots of questions, most of such questions not probably considered by the writer whose job is to make a good comic not an accurate comic.

I'm actually trying to figure out the concept of infinity in both comics and reality. Is it just a term use say the character is powerful or is it really the Max incalculable infinite benchmark which no one could calculate and achieve. This way I can estimate power levels better in characters. Like when Batman said Clark can reach infinite mass. If he reached that point then it's possible to say in battle forms that he can pretty much disintegrate Gods since if infinity means what they say it means but this video tells me that infinity isn't really the common conception of infinity (Power incalculable) so this might back up the flashes ability to punch only as powerful as a dwarf star since if we consider what the common conception of infinity is it should be more. Also, I just wanted some food for thought since I'm bored.

#11 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@DarkKnightDetective said:

XD that pic makes me imagine what Leonidas would do if a guy ran to him and told him this. He'd probably kick the guy in the hole just for confusing him

#12 Posted by Kal'smahboi (3515 posts) - - Show Bio
@salamatsabi: The maker of the video provides a link to an explanation at the end.
#13 Posted by Pyro_Jack (345 posts) - - Show Bio

I always thought that infinity was an idea, not an actual quatity. You can't simply put in a numerical expression or equation. Also, but the video's logic, the expression would never be solved as by logic the quantity of numbers resulting from the multiplication of -1 X "Infinite numbers" and 2 X "infinite numbers" should be exactly the same, which wouldn't make it possible for "-1" be there alone. That's why you shouldn't put an idea in a math problem, it might start contradicting itself. By the logic of his expression solving, infinity would end sometime, which would make it finite.

#14 Posted by SC (13092 posts) - - Show Bio

@salamatsabi said:

I'm actually trying to figure out the concept of infinity in both comics and reality. Is it just a term use say the character is powerful or is it really the Max incalculable infinite benchmark which no one could calculate and achieve. This way I can estimate power levels better in characters. Like when Batman said Clark can reach infinite mass. If he reached that point then it's possible to say in battle forms that he can pretty much disintegrate Gods since if infinity means what they say it means but this video tells me that infinity isn't really the common conception of infinity (Power incalculable) so this might back up the flashes ability to punch only as powerful as a dwarf star since if we consider what the common conception of infinity is it should be more. Also, I just wanted some food for thought since I'm bored.

Oh okay cool, well I can try and give my thoughts based on what I know of infinity and how its used in comics. Most writers I tend to think use the term as a way to make a character, concept or plot element sound really impressive. A few will use it correctly though as far as using it as a concept rather than a real hard number, since its not actually a real number and you can actually have different scales of infinity, something I have found a lot of smart CV posters don't seem to know this.

Anyway, so actual infinity isn't a static number, its an ongoing number, if we even want to label it as a number, (false, fake, unreal, unwritable, un-listable number) so if a character is said to posses an attribute thats described as infinity? Then that attribute should be ever increasing. Which could also actually mean that attribute may not be that impressive, because the rate of the attribute increasing towards infinity becomes a real factor. Take Hulks supposed infinite strength potential? Or another way to imagine it is that if you or me were immortal? We could spend all our time counting but we would never ever get to infinity no matter how long we spent counting. The closest we could get is to say... count for infinity heh heh.

The thing with Flash as well is that in theory he could get to having infinite mass, and thus an infinite mass punch, because of how mass moving at light speed is suppose to work, but that would require relative amounts of energy, and that would be a whole lot of energy, and they (the in narrative explanation) is that the speed force takes care of that... but the speed source isn't something that has been exposed to hardcore real life physics so really right now its just a plot device/mythical pseudo science explanation. Anyway if the speed force can really grant a character to have their mass accelerate to and pass the speed of light... well the energy required could be used in lots of other ways, ways that actually are quite beyond just movement unless its not actually granting a character the ability to do that, since many other characters who can surpass such speeds do so with another common writing trope... "hyperspace" or variations of hyperspace where they enter a physical space where they can shortcut space and time without requiring the infinite energy required to move around their infinity mass...

I would say just be weary of how people throw around the term infinity. Even if they are throwing around scans or feats. Technically speaking you and me both have the potential for infinite strength the same as the Hulk, its just that we also like the Hulk have factors which would limit us practically, our physical bodies for example, and overcoming that would require external solutions, and a fictional character like Hulk say has less practical limits but he still has limits, like time, so much like you and me counting to infinity and never actually getting their, Hulk will never actually get their either and it might take him one million years to just get to - random guess 404 billion tons. Which is a lot sure, but a character who doesn't have that potential for infinity strength but can lift 900 billion will still have more practical and real strength.

Oh Google and Youtube Georg Cantor and Ludwig Boltzmann for some history and background on the term if you aren't familiar with them. Very fascinating. In comics its really just applied as a cool term. Oh a few weeks ago I saw a scan of a comic where some comic characters were discussing different types of infinity though which warmed my bosom since whoever wrote that scene actually seemed to know what they were talking about heh heh.

Moderator
#15 Posted by SC (13092 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyro_Jack said:

I always thought that infinity was an idea, not an actual quatity. You can't simply put in a numerical expression or equation. Also, but the video's logic, the expression would never be solved as by logic the quantity of numbers resulting from the multiplication of -1 X "Infinite numbers" and 2 X "infinite numbers" should be exactly the same, which wouldn't make it possible for "-1" be there alone. That's why you shouldn't put an idea in a math problem, it might start contradicting itself. By the logic of his expression solving, infinity would end sometime, which would make it finite.

Yes very good, but I believe the video maker was aware of this, and is trying to provide a practical application of the term as far as helping solve "real" problems, which they talk about in another video, but you are most definitely correct as far as just creating and demonstrating another type of infinity, just one less used than the 1, 2, 3, 4, trend.

Moderator
#16 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio
@Kal'smahboi said:
@salamatsabi: The maker of the video provides a link to an explanation at the end.

I saw the video it didn't really explain it that well just said that science tries to get the answer to question by thinking of way to get the answer then try an test it if ti conforms or maybe I missed something

@Pyro_Jack said:

I always thought that infinity was an idea, not an actual quatity. You can't simply put in a numerical expression or equation. Also, but the video's logic, the expression would never be solved as by logic the quantity of numbers resulting from the multiplication of -1 X "Infinite numbers" and 2 X "infinite numbers" should be exactly the same, which wouldn't make it possible for "-1" be there alone. That's why you shouldn't put an idea in a math problem, it might start contradicting itself. By the logic of his expression solving, infinity would end sometime, which would make it finite.

So your saying the point of the video was to say that infinity isn't possible to be in math and in reality?. Does that mean that in comics when they say infinity they don't mean it? They just mean really strong?

#17 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

@salamatsabi said:

I'm actually trying to figure out the concept of infinity in both comics and reality. Is it just a term use say the character is powerful or is it really the Max incalculable infinite benchmark which no one could calculate and achieve. This way I can estimate power levels better in characters. Like when Batman said Clark can reach infinite mass. If he reached that point then it's possible to say in battle forms that he can pretty much disintegrate Gods since if infinity means what they say it means but this video tells me that infinity isn't really the common conception of infinity (Power incalculable) so this might back up the flashes ability to punch only as powerful as a dwarf star since if we consider what the common conception of infinity is it should be more. Also, I just wanted some food for thought since I'm bored.

Oh okay cool, well I can try and give my thoughts based on what I know of infinity and how its used in comics. Most writers I tend to think use the term as a way to make a character, concept or plot element sound really impressive. A few will use it correctly though as far as using it as a concept rather than a real hard number, since its not actually a real number and you can actually have different scales of infinity, something I have found a lot of smart CV posters don't seem to know this.

Anyway, so actual infinity isn't a static number, its an ongoing number, if we even want to label it as a number, (false, fake, unreal, unwritable, un-listable number) so if a character is said to posses an attribute thats described as infinity? Then that attribute should be ever increasing. Which could also actually mean that attribute may not be that impressive, because the rate of the attribute increasing towards infinity becomes a real factor. Take Hulks supposed infinite strength potential? Or another way to imagine it is that if you or me were immortal? We could spend all our time counting but we would never ever get to infinity no matter how long we spent counting. The closest we could get is to say... count for infinity heh heh.

The thing with Flash as well is that in theory he could get to having infinite mass, and thus an infinite mass punch, because of how mass moving at light speed is suppose to work, but that would require relative amounts of energy, and that would be a whole lot of energy, and they (the in narrative explanation) is that the speed force takes care of that... but the speed source isn't something that has been exposed to hardcore real life physics so really right now its just a plot device/mythical pseudo science explanation. Anyway if the speed force can really grant a character to have their mass accelerate to and pass the speed of light... well the energy required could be used in lots of other ways, ways that actually are quite beyond just movement unless its not actually granting a character the ability to do that, since many other characters who can surpass such speeds do so with another common writing trope... "hyperspace" or variations of hyperspace where they enter a physical space where they can shortcut space and time without requiring the infinite energy required to move around their infinity mass...

I would say just be weary of how people throw around the term infinity. Even if they are throwing around scans or feats. Technically speaking you and me both have the potential for infinite strength the same as the Hulk, its just that we also like the Hulk have factors which would limit us practically, our physical bodies for example, and overcoming that would require external solutions, and a fictional character like Hulk say has less practical limits but he still has limits, like time, so much like you and me counting to infinity and never actually getting their, Hulk will never actually get their either and it might take him one million years to just get to - random guess 404 billion tons. Which is a lot sure, but a character who doesn't have that potential for infinity strength but can lift 900 billion will still have more practical and real strength.

Oh Google and Youtube Georg Cantor and Ludwig Boltzmann for some history and background on the term if you aren't familiar with them. Very fascinating. In comics its really just applied as a cool term. Oh a few weeks ago I saw a scan of a comic where some comic characters were discussing different types of infinity though which warmed my bosom since whoever wrote that scene actually seemed to know what they were talking about heh heh.

@SC said:

@Pyro_Jack said:

I always thought that infinity was an idea, not an actual quatity. You can't simply put in a numerical expression or equation. Also, but the video's logic, the expression would never be solved as by logic the quantity of numbers resulting from the multiplication of -1 X "Infinite numbers" and 2 X "infinite numbers" should be exactly the same, which wouldn't make it possible for "-1" be there alone. That's why you shouldn't put an idea in a math problem, it might start contradicting itself. By the logic of his expression solving, infinity would end sometime, which would make it finite.

Yes very good, but I believe the video maker was aware of this, and is trying to provide a practical application of the term as far as helping solve "real" problems, which they talk about in another video, but you are most definitely correct as far as just creating and demonstrating another type of infinity, just one less used than the 1, 2, 3, 4, trend.

Thanks well I'm off to Google but could you tell which comic was the one where they talk about infinity I'm really interested

#18 Posted by Pyro_Jack (345 posts) - - Show Bio

@salamatsabi: I'm saying infinity is not a quantity, it's immesurable. It's not possible for us to know what it is exactly. Now matter how many numbers you know, there will always be more; Someone with infinite strenght can lift anything and would probably lift things so heavy they don't even exist; Someone with infinite potential will never reach his/her full potential; That's the idea of infinity. You can't simply put something immeasurable in maths. Infinite is not a value, you can't simply put three dots after some numbers and say it's infinite to make a numerical expression or equation.

#19 Posted by SC (13092 posts) - - Show Bio

@salamatsabi: I am struggling trying to remember, all I can be sure of right now is that it wasn't a Marvel or DC comic, I think it was a Vertigo comic. If I remember I will post in here. Oh and they may have been talking about omnipotence and infinity too - so if any other poster triggers a memory of such a scene.

Sorry I can't help more. Have fun with research!

Moderator
#20 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@Pyro_Jack said:

@salamatsabi: I'm saying infinity is not a quantity, it's immesurable. It's not possible for us to know what it is exactly. Now matter how many numbers you know, there will always be more; Someone with infinite strenght can lift anything and would probably lift things so heavy they don't even exist; Someone with infinite potential will never reach his/her full potential; That's the idea of infinity. You can't simply put something immeasurable in maths. Infinite is not a value, you can't simply put three dots after some numbers and say it's infinite to make a numerical expression or equation.

Ok thank you. I think that infinity in comics is just a term they used to make characters sound cool. This sorta downgrade the powers of the Flash,Superman and The Hulk :(. Thank you for simplifying it. I'm glad to have this sorted out. So it really is impossible for anything to reach infinity

#21 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok thanks @SC:

#22 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

At some point, science and mathematics become magic.

#23 Posted by guttridgeb (4832 posts) - - Show Bio

@salamatsabi: I concur :) are you familiar with dx?

#24 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@InnerVenom123 said:

At some point, science and mathematics become magic.

I think it's the other way around

@guttridgeb said:

@salamatsabi: I concur :) are you familiar with dx?

Um No what is it?

#25 Posted by guttridgeb (4832 posts) - - Show Bio

@salamatsabi: It's 0.00000000 going on to infinity, then a 1. I hate it and love it at the same time :P

#26 Edited by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@guttridgeb said:

@salamatsabi: It's 0.00000000 going on to infinity, then a 1. I hate it and love it at the same time :P

I think the post above would disagree :) Since there's no such thing as infinity the no decimal could ever reach infinity then end with a one. I think you mean a large number of zeros and then one

#27 Posted by ImmortalT1000 (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

3 + 2 = 5

#28 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImmortalT1000 said:

3 + 2 = 5

XD just found this while scanning the internet awesome trick though

#29 Posted by ImmortalT1000 (3170 posts) - - Show Bio

@salamatsabi: lol good one.

#30 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImmortalT1000 said:

@salamatsabi: lol good one.

Yeah Math is weird

#31 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (18008 posts) - - Show Bio

Not good at maths at all.

I have been told I am good at writing and I love writing but maths and me don't stick very well.

#32 Posted by YoungJustice (6841 posts) - - Show Bio

Infinity=42

#33 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrdecepticonleader said:

Not good at maths at all.

I have been told I am good at writing and I love writing but maths and me don't stick very well.

Yeah math is hard but it is extremely important that's why I'm trying to get the basics

@YoungJustice said:

Infinity=42

No, It's -1 :)

#34 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (18008 posts) - - Show Bio

@salamatsabi:Oh yeah I agree.

#35 Posted by SC (13092 posts) - - Show Bio

@salamatsabi: You might like these, nice and simple, I hope you enjoyed looking up those mathematicians/scientists I mentioned.

So think like a physicist and a mathematician and remember that comic book writers can be held accountable to your superior reasoning and understanding of reality... just don't assume they will care though. Heh heh.

Moderator
#36 Posted by ARMIV2 (8520 posts) - - Show Bio

...What the-? How the-? Why does math have to keep trying to screw me over every time I think I know my stuff? Why must math be cruel?

#37 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@ARMIV2 said:

...What the-? How the-? Why does math have to keep trying to screw me over every time I think I know my stuff? Why must math be cruel?

Math Hates you Chowder

@SC said:

@salamatsabi: You might like these, nice and simple, I hope you enjoyed looking up those mathematicians/scientists I mentioned.

So think like a physicist and a mathematician and remember that comic book writers can be held accountable to your superior reasoning and understanding of reality... just don't assume they will care though. Heh heh.

O_O I'm confused now on how I'm going to quantify feats but thanks for the video It's awesome

#38 Posted by SC (13092 posts) - - Show Bio

@salamatsabi: In my humble opinion, its better to learn as much as you can about maths and language, etymology, and logic, then you don't need to quantify feats you can gauge and assert their validity and chip away at the credibility of the writers who portray characters in various mediums =p

By the way I did find that scan I was talking about, it actually was Marvel heh heh. Here it is below. Though the videos I posted earlier are more comprehensive, I though the exchange below was pretty endearing (and better use of the term that most of its portrayals in comics)

Moderator
#39 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@SC said:

@salamatsabi: In my humble opinion, its better to learn as much as you can about maths and language, etymology, and logic, then you don't need to quantify feats you can gauge and assert their validity and chip away at the credibility of the writers who portray characters in various mediums =p

By the way I did find that scan I was talking about, it actually was Marvel heh heh. Here it is below. Though the videos I posted earlier are more comprehensive, I though the exchange below was pretty endearing (and better use of the term that most of its portrayals in comics)

He he thanks. I've already figured out that infinity is just an idea and not calculable by people since finite minds can't possible fathom infinite numbers

#40 Posted by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

You actually can't add past infinity since it literally means unending.

#41 Posted by FalconPuuunch (942 posts) - - Show Bio

-1?-1?!

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?! IS THIS REAL LIFE???

#42 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

You actually can't add past infinity since it literally means unending.

Your right dude but then how to I quantify a transfinite being like that above's power?

#43 Posted by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@FalconPuuunch said:

-1?-1?!

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?! IS THIS REAL LIFE???

Apparently so but I have no Idea of the application of the above video to real life other than Scientists finding short cuts to getting the right answers from endless rows of numbers by finding ways around the infinity scenario

#44 Posted by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

@salamatsabi: You can't quantify infinity. If it can be quantified its not infinite by definition

#45 Edited by salamatsabi (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe said:

@salamatsabi: You can't quantify infinity. If it can be quantified its not infinite by definition

Thank you for responding.So what is that guy suppose to be then? I really don't understand what he means by transfinite being! Authors should stop using those words if they not going to be at least clear on where they want their characters to stand in terms of power level. Does this mean that the Transfinite being could beat TOAA or something being it may somehow has Transfinite= Beyond finite I'm more confused then ever