#1 Posted by Reginleif (46 posts) - - Show Bio

Despite not being a national myself, I am very informed about the Yankees and the crisis they face; an increasingly corrupt and stagnant political system, deep social inequality, and a looming economic depression, things do not look well. Could things spiral to political fragmentation, violence, and irreparable economic damage?

pic related btw

#2 Posted by KainScion (2992 posts) - - Show Bio

dont you already have political fragmentation?

#3 Posted by Omega Ray Jay (8360 posts) - - Show Bio

Might do the country some good to get rid of the stagnant morons who pull the strings, I know it would help things on over here.

#4 Posted by blur1528 (1095 posts) - - Show Bio

If it did... I'd be f*cked.

#5 Posted by AtPhantom (14434 posts) - - Show Bio

It's not going to collapse. All nations pass through periods of upheaval at times and US is no different. Nations are extremely durable entities. The current political system will sort itself out one way or another eventually, and until then the nation might suffer a bit over it but it's not going anywhere any time soon.

#6 Posted by SyIar (414 posts) - - Show Bio

If the U.S were to collapse, it would effect most of the modern world.

Also... Yankee? That's only OK when we call ourselves that you

NINNYHAMMER

#7 Posted by HBKTimHBK (5571 posts) - - Show Bio

I try to be a very hopeful person when my country goes through hard times, but we've been worse off then this, and we will survive.

#8 Posted by Shadow_Thief (2511 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's less likely for a nation to collapse now than it has been, historically. The whole idea of a global economy means that nations are more dependent than ever on one another, and a major disruption in one would affect most, if not all, of the others. That being said, we're in a mess now, yes. I don't think our system can continue to stumble forward indefinitely in its current state.

#9 Posted by PowerHerc (86141 posts) - - Show Bio

Time will tell.

#10 Posted by Lunacyde (21249 posts) - - Show Bio
@AtPhantom said:

It's not going to collapse. All nations pass through periods of upheaval at times and US is no different. Nations are extremely durable entities. The current political system will sort itself out one way or another eventually, and until then the nation might suffer a bit over it but it's not going anywhere any time soon.

This. You Serbian Socrates. So wise.
#11 Posted by John Valentine (16427 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lunacyde said:

@AtPhantom said:

It's not going to collapse. All nations pass through periods of upheaval at times and US is no different. Nations are extremely durable entities. The current political system will sort itself out one way or another eventually, and until then the nation might suffer a bit over it but it's not going anywhere any time soon.

This. You Serbian Socrates. So wise.

Haha, approved.

#13 Posted by Lunacyde (21249 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek_the_lost said:

@AtPhantom said:

It's not going to collapse. All nations pass through periods of upheaval at times and US is no different. Nations are extremely durable entities. The current political system will sort itself out one way or another eventually, and until then the nation might suffer a bit over it but it's not going anywhere any time soon.

That sounds like an American notion, there's new nations popping up all the time and it's not because we're discovering them. If history suggests anything, America could very easily disappear just like every other nation before it.

Depends what you mean. Many nations have existed for thousands of years. They may go through phases, and change, but they still exist. 
 
The era of American dominance MAY be waning, but America is not going to violently collpse and be taken over by invading hordes. 
 
Also an American notion coming from a Serbian? How absurd.
#14 Posted by TheWitchingHour (1350 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

It's not going to collapse. All nations pass through periods of upheaval at times and US is no different. Nations are extremely durable entities. The current political system will sort itself out one way or another eventually, and until then the nation might suffer a bit over it but it's not going anywhere any time soon.

Pretty much this. The United States will probably lose it's place as the figurehead of world politics but it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

@aztek_the_lost said:

@AtPhantom said:

It's not going to collapse. All nations pass through periods of upheaval at times and US is no different. Nations are extremely durable entities. The current political system will sort itself out one way or another eventually, and until then the nation might suffer a bit over it but it's not going anywhere any time soon.

That sounds like an American notion, there's new nations popping up all the time and it's not because we're discovering them. If history suggests anything, America could very easily disappear just like every other nation before it.

New nations spring up from hardly developed ones. Africa has been constantly shifting political boundaries for years because of war, disease, poverty and military regimes. The United States is in a remarkably different situation. It's too tied into the global economy at this point to wither without serious consequences to the rest of the world and more importantly multinationals. Americans consume like no other country on earth and it's in the best interest of virtually every producer out there to ensure our survival.

#15 Posted by AtPhantom (14434 posts) - - Show Bio

@aztek_the_lost said:


That sounds like an American notion, there's new nations popping up all the time and it's not because we're discovering them. If history suggests anything, America could very easily disappear just like every other nation before it.

I think you're confusing nations and states. States come and go, sure, but new nations, as in a group of people bound by a common identity, are far less common. Consider that most nations in Europe are at least a thousand years old. Over time they have oscillated between having their own states and being parts of others, but their national identity has remained strong. The French, for example, have went through five republics and two empires over the past 200 years, but they are still the same French and maintain absolute legal continuity between their states.

Likewise for America. It is a state comprised of people who consider themselves Americans and want to live in America, so they have no reason to pull from the center and cause a collapse, and America has no outside enemy which could facilitate it. American system will perhaps require a bit of a reboot eventually, even without that America will survive because it is a national state and its citizens have no desire to change it.

@Lunacyde said:

This. You Serbian Socrates. So wise.

Oh come now. I consider myself an Aristotle at best. :P

#18 Posted by Reginleif (46 posts) - - Show Bio

@TheWitchingHour: To be fair though Africa's never ending gerrymandering lays in the problem that they almost entirely reflect colonial boundaries, not ethnic ones. Only a few African states represent historic states, Morocco, Mali, Egypt and only a few represent ethnic ones (Lesotho). I could see a division of the US based on North and South though...

#19 Posted by jeanlucpicard (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope.

#20 Posted by _Zombie_ (10551 posts) - - Show Bio

No. It's bad, but still far from the point of collapse.

#21 Edited by Vaeternus (9558 posts) - - Show Bio

America I'd trust would never truly collapse. As long as the people of America change it this November, we' should be ok.

However, it's not in the best shape economically, financially right now and there seems to be no harmony thru out the country but for good reason. I believe we need to go back to our roots. I don't agree remotely with the current way of America, it's not good at all. Vote out Obama, probably be a good start at this point.

#22 Posted by Illuminatus (9578 posts) - - Show Bio

We need to dump the majority of Congress on it's ass, start laying the smackdown on the rich and powerful in regards to taxation, and start passing laws that ensure corporations and private interest parties can't infiltrate the government with lobbyists and essentially become the true rulers of the country.

#23 Posted by _Cain_ (23755 posts) - - Show Bio

@AtPhantom said:

It's not going to collapse. All nations pass through periods of upheaval at times and US is no different. Nations are extremely durable entities. The current political system will sort itself out one way or another eventually, and until then the nation might suffer a bit over it but it's not going anywhere any time soon.

#24 Posted by AtPhantom (14434 posts) - - Show Bio

@aztek_the_lost said:

@AtPhantom: Maybe the problem here is I think of the US as what you would call a state as opposed to a nation. The definitions of such terms don't mean anything to me but they are very clearly a group of people united by the fact that they share a border, not because they share common beliefs, background and culture because they don't.

On second look I think I could have worded my argument a bit better, but I was in a hurry and that's the best I could do. The gist of it is: States collapse either because a foreign enemy destroys them, or because the people instigate collapse because they don't want to live in that state anymore. Now America has no foreign enemy capable of toppling it over, that much is clear. America is also, like France, Germany, China, etc, a national state, meaning that its citizens are, despite their differences in culture, background and beliefs, are all united by the fact that they consider themselves Americans. That means that they want to live in the state of America and have no desire to fragment it. Now of course, national identity is an entirely social concept. It is conceivable that in the future, say Texan identity will overpower American identity in Texas, and so Texans will strive to separate from the US and form a state of their own (That's how America came to be after all). But so long as the majority of the population consider themselves members of the same nation, they will always prefer to fix the nation's problems than tear it apart.

By contrast, multinational entities like empires are far more fragile and vulnerable to fragmentation because, come trouble, each nation will strive to form its own state rather than work for the good of the empire.

#25 Posted by Glitch_Spawn (17179 posts) - - Show Bio

We are Rome in a sense. I'll only say I don't feel good about raising kids here.

#26 Posted by TheWitchingHour (1350 posts) - - Show Bio

@Reginleif said:

@TheWitchingHour: To be fair though Africa's never ending gerrymandering lays in the problem that they almost entirely reflect colonial boundaries, not ethnic ones. Only a few African states represent historic states, Morocco, Mali, Egypt and only a few represent ethnic ones (Lesotho). I could see a division of the US based on North and South though...

I'm not sure if gerrymandering is really the most (lol) appropriate term but I understand what you're saying and I agree ;)

English, French, Belgian, and Italian colonialism absolutely were cornerstones of the modern Africa. But those same colonial powers manipulated Ethnic, Political, or Religious schisms that were already in place. In smaller communities these schisms wouldn't have been as much of a problem but on a national scale they render a nation unstable and vulnerable to colonization. Like you said the historic states of Morocco, Mali, and Egypt remained relatively sovereign through the colonial era and continue to do so today. Because they were established and developed states.

@aztek_the_lost said:

@TheWitchingHour said:

New nations spring up from hardly developed ones. Africa has been constantly shifting political boundaries for years because of war, disease, poverty and military regimes. The United States is in a remarkably different situation. It's too tied into the global economy at this point to wither without serious consequences to the rest of the world and more importantly multinationals. Americans consume like no other country on earth and it's in the best interest of virtually every producer out there to ensure our survival.

That's not really true though, most nations broke off from a nation that was pretty old, America for example. I'm not saying its presence wouldn't continue to exist, I'm not even saying it is on the verge of collapse, I'm just saying history shows it'll probably fragment into smaller territories and I'm kind of surprised it hasn't already but that might be because it was created all along with the idea that it's a number of loosely-allied states rather then a single nation.

@Lunacyde said:

Depends what you mean. Many nations have existed for thousands of years. They may go through phases, and change, but they still exist. The era of American dominance MAY be waning, but America is not going to violently collpse and be taken over by invading hordes. Also an American notion coming from a Serbian? How absurd.

But that doesn't really count, where there's people there will be a nation. Simple as that. I never said anything about invading hordes, I meant like collapsing and becoming multiple nations like every other country (including itself) has done in the past. And actually, I didn't know AtPhantom was Serbian, then that notion makes no sense at all.

I get what you're saying. Historical evidence shows that empires fall and new ones take their place. But you also have to take into consideration the fundamental difference between eras. For example the Middle Ages relied on land to dictate power. Fuedalism was the law of the land and that socio-economic policy formed nation/states. But we're currently in the Digital Age. Our currency is information as opposed to land. And that information and data is tied up with everyone elses data. Also countries we are indebted to have an interest in seeing us someday paying off that debt. I agree that something analogous to the downfall of Rome is bound to happen. I just don't think Germanic tribes are going to show up and loot us anytime soon.

#27 Posted by TheBatman586 (6466 posts) - - Show Bio

It's not quite at that point yet, but if things continue the way they are, the country only has about another 20 years, max.

#28 Edited by Blood1991 (8115 posts) - - Show Bio

The U.S. has been through rougher times, and will probably go through worse in the future. To say we are collapsing is just plain over dramatic.

#29 Posted by Nefarious (28701 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope, it's structure will remain stabled.

#30 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (8830 posts) - - Show Bio

USA ain't going nowhere. And it's still one of the greatest countries in the world. Always will be.

#31 Edited by Edamame (29840 posts) - - Show Bio

No, but corporatism and greed have destroyed and are destroying America. America has lost a lot of its manufacturing power, and this will lead to a decrease in America's economic power. This is one of the many reasons why China is currently a rising economy because it has become a major manufacturing power. One shouldn't blame China for the loss of American manufacturing jobs. One should blame one's own avaricious (American) corporations. This shows that corporations really don't care about the citizens of a particular nation at all.

I also get the feeling that the dissolution of the former Soviet Union has contributed to America's downward movement because we lost our need to compete. In the Cold War, the Soviet Union and the United States were the only two superpowers in the world, but America became a hyperpower after 1991. When there are no nations for you to compete with, you will lose that competitive edge and competitive drive.

Also, it is important for a nation to have a well-educated workforce because that will assist the economy as well. Generally speaking, higher education is simply too expensive in this country, and the next bubble (after the housing market crisis) will most likely be the student college loan market. This student college loan debt currently exceeds that of $1 trillion. That is disturbing.

Furthermore, America currently owes China at least $1 trillion. I hope that America can keep up with this enormous payment in the future. I also hope that this won't lead to a future bankruptcy. That is what happened to the Soviet Union.

If the American economy falls, then so will China's. If China's economy falls, then so will America's. Such is the delicate nature of economic interdependence.

#32 Posted by ssejllenrad (13028 posts) - - Show Bio

US may lose its edge as the top-dog but I doubt it will collapse. Unless of course they elect another Bush and continue to do so like the row of stupid emperors right before Rome's fall.

#33 Posted by Reginleif (46 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally I would prefer if some of the 'civilized' states were annexed by Canada, we will become the new barbarians!

#34 Posted by Nova`Prime` (4172 posts) - - Show Bio

How do I put this... God I hope so.

#35 Edited by Lunacyde (21249 posts) - - Show Bio
@aztek_the_lost: America is a different animal though. You can't compare the United States to say the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire moved in and conquered a vast land populated by many different peoples who all retained much of their original culture. Most of America's population immigrated here after the conception of the country and adopted the American culture. People came here because they wanted to, and Texas is the only state I could realistically see asking to leave the union. We are stronger together than we could ever be apart. We don't have the distinct ethnic and cultural divisions groups in Africa or Europe have, so it's truly in the American people's best interest to stay together as a cohesive unit.
#36 Posted by Lunacyde (21249 posts) - - Show Bio
@AtPhantom said:

@aztek_the_lost said:


That sounds like an American notion, there's new nations popping up all the time and it's not because we're discovering them. If history suggests anything, America could very easily disappear just like every other nation before it.

I think you're confusing nations and states. States come and go, sure, but new nations, as in a group of people bound by a common identity, are far less common. Consider that most nations in Europe are at least a thousand years old. Over time they have oscillated between having their own states and being parts of others, but their national identity has remained strong. The French, for example, have went through five republics and two empires over the past 200 years, but they are still the same French and maintain absolute legal continuity between their states.

Likewise for America. It is a state comprised of people who consider themselves Americans and want to live in America, so they have no reason to pull from the center and cause a collapse, and America has no outside enemy which could facilitate it. American system will perhaps require a bit of a reboot eventually, even without that America will survive because it is a national state and its citizens have no desire to change it.

@Lunacyde said:

This. You Serbian Socrates. So wise.

Oh come now. I consider myself an Aristotle at best. :P

Yes, but Serbian Aristotle is not alliterative :P
#37 Posted by ReVamp (23014 posts) - - Show Bio

No. Its not.

#38 Posted by TheSheepHerder (12014 posts) - - Show Bio

@ReVamp said:

No. Its not.

#39 Posted by AtPhantom (14434 posts) - - Show Bio

@Lunacyde said:

Yes, but Serbian Aristotle is not alliterative :P

Bah, you win this time... :P

#40 Posted by (((Prodigy))) (2520 posts) - - Show Bio
@ZombieBigfoot said:

No. It's bad, but still far from the point of collapse.