#151 Posted by warlock360 (28050 posts) - - Show Bio

>inclining we haven't been at this topic since the thirties

#152 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@innervenom123: being gay is not the same as being black what is so hard to understand about that?

No one said it was.

#154 Posted by DigbyKong (300 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought America was fine.......until I read through the agreement in this thread.

It's all over. We are doomed!

#155 Posted by ShadowX (1217 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: Accept for when there are gay black people. And this is where i see it. We need to recognize intersectionality. Now the LGBT movements has its own problems, the civil rights movement has its own problems.( and just to add in an other group) feminism has it own problems. However there are people who are affected by all three. There are gay black people, there are trans woman, etc, and they are at a crux between all these movements. Thats why the percentages of queer woman of color( specifically trans woman of color) are at risk of violence agains them more then any other people when compared to their population size. And thats why the three need to work together. Anyways im not saying any of you were against what im saying. I just thought i would bring it up.

#156 Posted by Wolverine08 (38805 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc:

Just because you find being gay not normal because you are naturally straight does not mean gays are not naturally gay.

#157 Posted by martyyy15 (1223 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux:

umm wow dude that was not called for. Seriosuly thats a straight up insult. I'm not insulting you am I. I really don't feel like being directly insulted saying I'm a waste of space or stuff like that. I said I disaagrree with shadows view but I never said they were a waste of space. On the contrary I belive they contribute to sociey as any other job holding american does. Just because I veiw what they have or "identify" as, as a diferent reason then most people is no reason to insult me. Notice how I am being civil in my retort of your statement. Now look I don't wanna get in a duel with you ok man lol....soooo you excited for trinity war ( evasive action, topic change XD)

#158 Posted by Vortex13 (12223 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: Well actually there is surgery where you can alter your skin color but I digress.

A black person can choose to live whatever way they want as well. They just happen to be black while doing it.

#159 Posted by martyyy15 (1223 posts) - - Show Bio
#160 Posted by SOG7dc (6713 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08:

I don't believe I ever said it was not normal all I said was that I didn't like when homosexuality is compared to being black. I am choosing to walk away from this conversation as it is not going anywhere.

#161 Posted by martyyy15 (1223 posts) - - Show Bio

@shadowx: violence against any group of people wheather they are diferent, mentally ill, deformed, or can't speak right is wrong either way. Anyhone who can support that kind of violence is very wrong and should be dealt with by the law

#162 Edited by SOG7dc (6713 posts) - - Show Bio

@vortex13:

I have never heard of such a surgery. but aside from that you guys are missing my point.

gay=/=black. transgender=/= black.

#163 Posted by Wolverine08 (38805 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc:

You said being gay isn't comparable to being black because you can't choose to be black. You were implying that being gay isn't natural.

#164 Posted by SOG7dc (6713 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08:

I don't believe it is. but no matter my belief on whether or not gay is natural gay is on no level equal to being black.

#165 Posted by ShadowX (1217 posts) - - Show Bio

@martyyy15: and i agree. I'm simply stating that thosse people are more likely to be targets within our society, because of peoples negative views of them.

#166 Edited by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@wolverine08:

I don't believe it is.

So being gay is a choice is what you're saying.

#167 Edited by MagnificentStorm (1380 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: Not totally true if i had the money i could easily pay a doctor to remove pigmentation from my skin so that I then become white or get plastic surgery to become asian.

An i dont think its a choice tho yes one could be with a woman if they were gay but would you truly be happy with yourself. Just like i can choose (if i had the money) to be "white"

#168 Edited by MagnificentStorm (1380 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: whats the difference if your opinion then between being gay an black?

#169 Posted by Vortex13 (12223 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: In terms of how they are discriminated against it is similar. It was for a long time illegal for an interracial couple to marry and it is still illegal for same sex couples to marry in some states.

#170 Edited by martyyy15 (1223 posts) - - Show Bio

@shadowx: Finally we agree on something lol. And I know they are more often targets, but just cause people don't agree with what they do or belive it has a diferent reason than what people bleive doesn't mean they are out to hurt them. I personally think trans is well you know as I already stated, but I in no way hate you and most certainly would NEVER hurt you over something so stupid. Love and tolerate doesn't mean you have to agree with everything that is said ^_^

#171 Posted by Ms. Omega (4404 posts) - - Show Bio
#172 Edited by laflux (14228 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

do not play me for a fool Laflux.

I don't have too. Your doing a pretty good job of doing so yourself.

@sog7dc said:

"Can an openly transgender or homosexual person ever hope to become President of the USA?"

and of course its further along the civil rights movement for black people has been going on since the late 1800's so the comparison of the two as far as progress is utterly asinine. and Aside from all of that please don't compare being black to being homosexual or trangendered.

Case in point. You find it offensive to Compare being black to being Gays and Transgendered. That in itself, proves your discrimination. Neither are wrong, neither should be discriminated against in any way, yet they are. So discrimination against both groups is comparable. Its asinine to suggest otherwise- and I say this as a Black Man. And besides, did you know in Tudor England Black people served in the Courts of Kings as officials and Musicians, but being Gay "Buggery", was punishable by death?

The only reason why the Civil Rights movement has started earlier than the LGBT movement, is because at least people could try to hide their sexuality. Pretend to be something they are not- which you obviously can't if your Black. And that's the reason why me and you will disagree on a fundamental level. I've seen you in other threads, and you seem to have this warped view, that being anything other than being Heterosexual is wrong, and some type of lifestyle choice. Let me tell you a little secret. Its not. People don't choose to be Gay, or to be Transgendered, or even Bi. Not with the amount of nonsensical bullsh!t they have to put up with.

As I said before, one moron is enough for this thread.

#173 Posted by DigbyKong (300 posts) - - Show Bio

Get over the gay and black stuff. White people hate you equally. Both win!

#174 Posted by MagnificentStorm (1380 posts) - - Show Bio
#175 Posted by Vortex13 (12223 posts) - - Show Bio

I do believe we can all agree though, Pokemon are the most discriminated in this country. Especially when they are gay, black, Muslim Pokemon

#176 Posted by martyyy15 (1223 posts) - - Show Bio

@vortex13:

umm pokemon are fictional lol :P

#177 Edited by SOG7dc (6713 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux:

Still can't debate without the immature name calling? Still cant open your mind up and actually understand the words I'm typing? Still so eager to argue and take the moral high ground? Still so eager to insult and excoriate anyone with an opinion contrary to your own? Still upset because your last post held no merit because I did in fact answer the question you asked however with an answer you didn't expect to hear? Grow up laflux and start behaving like the adult you pretend to be. I'm done with this thread and done with you. Both are dead to me.

#179 Edited by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@wolverine08 said:

@sog7dc:

"Factually" No. It is your opinion gays are lying about if what they are doing is natural to them not fact.

it is also fact that a gay man can choose to be with a woman.

Choosing to be with a man or woman =/= being sexually attracted to a man or woman. There's no choice when it comes to physical attraction. What you're describing is some backwards lie to fit social convention, not the "choice" to be gay.

#180 Edited by laflux (14228 posts) - - Show Bio

@martyyy15 said:

@laflux:

umm wow dude that was not called for. Seriosuly thats a straight up insult. I'm not insulting you am I. I really don't feel like being directly insulted saying I'm a waste of space or stuff like that. I said I disaagrree with shadows view but I never said they were a waste of space. On the contrary I belive they contribute to sociey as any other job holding american does. Just because I veiw what they have or "identify" as, as a diferent reason then most people is no reason to insult me. Notice how I am being civil in my retort of your statement. Now look I don't wanna get in a duel with you ok man lol....soooo you excited for trinity war ( evasive action, topic change XD)

You haven't been civil. You've called someone on this thread deluded, and offensively misdiagnosed another. You made a thread, with the premise of America is going to sh!t, not due to spiraling debt, polarization on most major issues, a 12 year war which still may not end, one of the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the developed world, high unemployment- but over the premise that Moral standards are slipping because a transgender girl won Queen Prom. Do you know how insulting that is? There are so many issue to tackle, to moan about, but you choose someone who decided that they don't want to be Guy, as your reason? Quite frankly, its petty.

Don't try to find a middle ground here. Murderers and Rapists can also contribute society by holding down jobs, and pay taxes. Black People had jobs and were paying taxes when they were referred to as second class citizens. This thread was a steaming pile of crap from the get go. If I'm insulting you, its only because I stating things as matter of of fact. Your a misinformed, bigoted, sensationalist who needs to get their head out of their a$$, and realize its actually the 21st century where women don't have to send off a dowry to get married.

If you want to talk about Trinity War, go make a thread and talk to someone else about it.

#181 Posted by laflux (14228 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@laflux:

I'm done with this thread and done with you. Both are dead to me.

#182 Posted by martyyy15 (1223 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux:

yes I am done with this thread as well. If anyone would like to have a civil adult conversation about this topic PM me K

#183 Posted by laflux (14228 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@laflux:

Still so eager to argue and take the moral high ground?

Its not so hard to argue the high ground when your countering someone who has said this.........

Just throwing it out there.........

#184 Posted by cameron83 (6675 posts) - - Show Bio

America isn't going to Crap... America is fine... everyone wants to b!tch and moan and talk about how things was so much better back in the old days of America... forgetting how hard those days was on minorities...

Not just minorities,but women,homosexuals,etc and the way America was so obnoxious (well,more obnoxious).

Not only that,but many matters weren't really addressed or cared for as much (such as school bullying). And we DID do something to Japan.....

#185 Edited by Pfcoolio14 (1139 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@laflux said:

@sog7dc said:

@laflux:

in the future definitely yes. if you would have asked my grandmother "will there ever be a black president?" when she was growing up during the great depression in the 1930s what do you think she would have said? time outlasts all barriers.

Don't side step the question. I meant now. The fact that Obama is in the Office now, proves that Civil Rights is ahead of LGBT Rights. Please don't entertain contrary delusions........

do not play me for a fool laflux. I answered your question without any so called "sidestepping". if you don't remember you asked me:

"Can an openly transgender or homosexual person ever hope to become President of the USA?"

and of course its further along the civil rights movement for blac people has been going on since the late 1800s so the comparison of the two as far as progress is utterly asinine. and Aside from all of that please don't compare being black to being homosexual or transgendered.

I definitely understand where you're coming from. I support the same sex movement. They have there similarities, but to directly relate the two isn't accurate at all. Being Black is a skin color. A categorization of the human race. It's not the same as a sexual orientation, a way of life or a sub-culture. There the same, except for the fact that gays were never enslaved, lynched, beaten by cops throughout the nation, denied access to education and the vote, forced to use separate restaurant, transportation, and restroom facilities, and do not currently suffer from economic hardship and imprisonment at many times the rate of non-homosexuals. Anyone remember the Jim Crow laws from History class on here. You can compare sexual orientation to being stripped away from your families and dying on ships from disease to end up working for the rest of your life to the other. I'm not saying the same sex marriage movement is wrong, but sog7dc's answer to the question was definitely merited. African Americans in the country have endured a far worse struggle, feel free to disagree with me. The Berlin Conference literally separated the entire country of Africa and exploited them as well as treating living human beings as property. That's a lot worse since we don't decide the skin we're born in. Literally hundreds of millions of lives were destroyed because of this.

#186 Posted by InnerVenom123 (29499 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@sog7dc said:

@laflux:

Still so eager to argue and take the moral high ground?

Its not so hard to argue the high ground when your countering someone who has said this.........

Just throwing it out there.........

Absolutely disgusting.

#187 Edited by laflux (14228 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14: I didn't say that they were the same. But people who can't see the similarities are misinformed, and I do stand by the fact that its harder to be LGBT in the States than Black now. And as I said too, people don't choose their sexuality. They can hide it, but they don't choose it......

#188 Edited by mikethekiller (8318 posts) - - Show Bio

Hey guys, whats going on in this thread?

#189 Posted by Pfcoolio14 (1139 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

@pfcoolio14: I didn't say that they were the same. But people who can't see the similarities are misinformed, and I do stand by the fact that its harder to be LGBT in the States than Black now. And as I said too, people don't choose their sexuality. They can hide it, but they don't choose it......

Well you could find the similarities in any rights movement then. The womens right movement,disability rights movement, Native American rights movement etc. People were repressed and they fought against it. That's why they're called movements. As long as you don't compare them directly, cause it's obvious that some happened on a much grander scale. As for whichever is harder, that's debatable. Sure, you can't get married as a gay person, I understand the negative psychology behind that. But due to the actions of the last century, lots of black families are stuck in a repetitive cycle of economic disadvantage and aren't able to move out of a lot of slums and ghettos for a better education, future etc. I agree, that there's a black president, but there's a lot more black people stuck in places like Chicago, the State of New York, and the South, being murdered and left with nothing to do but gangbang. It's only so rare that a black kid is able rise out of that and become something more. It also happens to be that Obama had one white parent and was raised by two white grandparents. As for jobs, I guess the two could have a hard time finding jobs. There's still a bias against gay people but sometimes there is a bias racial undertone. As for the people don't choose their sexuality statement, that's debatable and saved for another time.

#190 Posted by CheeseSticks (2386 posts) - - Show Bio
Online
#191 Posted by MyNameWasDeleted (679 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn... so sorry I have come so late to this (ahem) meeting of the minds... and I applaud you all for your civility (well, for the most part... some folks just don't know how to express themselves without making a mess of it)

I would like to present a fact or two for discussion. Black is exactly equal to Transsexual, they are both conditions which one cannot change about oneself -try as they might to wish or pray it away. One is completely understood at a moments glance as being a condition, the other can be hidden. The braver of the two is the one who chooses to be who they truly are regardless of the outcome even though they could have remained hidden.

I am Transsexual. My identity and expression of gender hurts no one, yet every day of my life is a test of my will. I am alone in the world save for but a few brave souls who have embraced the truth about themselves and boldly stepped forth from hiding. There is no section of town where we all live together for convenience and co-misery. Every person I meet I must chose to allow to hate me at some point, for eventually I will have to tell them the truth or they will be informed in some way- be it a slip of mannerism or turn of phase or some other person who just wants to mess up my otherwise happy bubble. At some point in every week I will have to run for my life or stand and fight or break down into a puddle of defeated and demoralized human jello, but then at those moments I remember that I made the choice to be brave and to be myself and to stay alive by sidestepping the suicide exit and remain in the world for another bite of the sh!t sandwich of life.

Black cannot be unblack, I cannot be untranssexual. It is what I am and it is far harder to be this than to be anything else I have ever been, and I was a Corporal in the United States Marine Corps. None of that matters though because I'm just as hated as black, just as feared and misunderstood. Just as disrespected. The only difference is that I bravely and freely chose to reveal my true self.

America is not going to crap, America is the land of the free and the home of the brave.... we are free to be brave. How brave are you?

#192 Posted by Vortex13 (12223 posts) - - Show Bio
#193 Posted by ThatGuyWithHeadPhones (10341 posts) - - Show Bio

Rather be here then anywhere else...that all I gotta say

#194 Posted by SC (12703 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I am not an American, so maybe its one of those things where you have to be there to see it but I think America is doing awesomely and better today than the past. So is this like all the Americas or just the United States of America? I can be a bit muddled when it comes to that part of the world and its labels and place names, but if we are talking about the former then I hear plenty of awesome things/studies/papers about Canada on a regular basis involving equality, freedoms, opportunity, and treatment of its people. The US continues to produce some of the most critically minded, intelligent, scientifically literate thinkers around and many are beginning to be treated as more important than movie and music celebrities, which is is a great trend that I hope continues. Attitudes about countries aside its also base human nature to focus on the negatives of a situation and idealize the past. Not many people who make assertions about the quality of a modern country and its decline tend to establish points of reference and they are usually surprised when all the objective data and information points towards positives. The cry of the declination of quality is hence also characteristics of generations and individuals jaded ad cynical about select and particular incidents without appreciating much of the circumstance leading to such incident in the first place. Usually the assertion or accusation is also founded by a highly subjective personal sense which disqualifies in actual meaning in the assertion or accusation since its a reoccurring assertion and accusation that individuals and generations are prone to making without actual objective reasoning or criteria. Which is to say I can empathize with people who feel things are getting worse, but also depending on what you mean? Chances are things are actually getting better. Usually the difference and disparity there is prioritizing thinking knowing and understanding better over feeling better.

Hello there. I was curious as to how you define and decide who is a man and who is a woman? As far as your statement about a man being born a man and a woman being born a woman being a woman? Are you referring to sex chromosomes? External physical genitals? What about countries that have more than two genders?

Also if you have time what do you mean by normal? How do you define what is normal and not normal? Schizophrenia is considered a disorder because it - in a general sense hinders and interrupts the thought processes of an individual. Its not usually not beneficial in any sense for the person. As a parallel one could suppose that being schizophrenic isn't normal by virtue of "normal" and typical brain functioning and processing being considered beneficial but the actual emphasis should really be about the benefit of the person as opposed to applying the labels of what is normal and not normal in a subjective sense. Hence why schizophrenia is something that is attempted to be prevented and managed. This is significantly different to transgender people, as their brain processes aren't interrupted or hindered. Usually the only actual detriments or adverse effects, processes are subjective and societally constructed. That and there are many many benefits that come with a person having a sense of value about being themselves and comfortable in their body. Thus its not really about accepting as normal or not, but accepting and understanding in general and having a good understanding and sense of what is actually normal and not normal and what society and people project as normal or not normal, often typically this is done rather subjectively. Like to use your parallel again, since many people misunderstand or are ignorant about human biology, gender and sex in the scientific sense and societally constructed sense and just general xenophobia and why and how it happens, many people can feel that there is something mentally or physically wrong with those that challenge what their idea and understanding of what normal is. Throughout history this has applied in various ways, but eventually with better understanding, familiarity, education, generations and people realize differences are relatively superficial, and there isn't anything wrong with insert minority or oppressed group here. Until they realize that though they think something like homosexuality or transgendered people suffer from a mental disorder and so it is something to be prevented or managed, its not actually that dissimilar to how people with mental disorders were believed to be possessed by evil spirits. The three things are very very different. There is nothing wrong with having mental disorders either, usually the serious ones hinder or negatively affect a persons ability to live, hence why in management and prevention is actually beneficial to the person. Not always though, many with physical or mental disorders, abnormalities, aliments, so on, don't require treatment and or wouldn't benefit from treatment and so don't need treatment. It really depends but the main thing is that they aren't not normal for not falling into some statistic. Treatment and prevention in the context of what is normal or not should only be concerned with the benefit of the person. As opposed to homosexual or transgender people where attempted treatment or prevention of is not only not beneficial but usually harmful. Unless your talking about human constructed societal consequences that have jack all to do with objective understanding of the human body and psychology. Since yeah in some countries unfortunately have to manage and repress their gender/sexuality/orientation for reasons to do with their immediate physical safety. Really sad. Hope that helps as far as the differences involved in the parallel you made yes? Cheers. ^_^

Moderator
#195 Posted by consolemaster001 (4971 posts) - - Show Bio

>America going to crap

>Say the whole world is like that

LOL

#196 Posted by Pfcoolio14 (1139 posts) - - Show Bio

@mynamewasdeleted:

Since when was being black a condition?

And I can assure you that no one is trying to hide the fact that they're black or pray it away.

#197 Posted by _Zombie_ (10321 posts) - - Show Bio

America's been fcked up for a long, long time.

#198 Posted by MyNameWasDeleted (679 posts) - - Show Bio

@pfcoolio14: please read more carefully... A condition, as in "A mode, or state of being"... And though you may not have been able to hide your blackness (which was my point actually) or pray it away, others have - look up passing as white.

#199 Edited by Pfcoolio14 (1139 posts) - - Show Bio

@mynamewasdeleted:

Still disagree in the whole equal thing. Being black is a categorization of the human race. Its not the same as a sexual orientation or lifestyle. And the struggles that African Americans have had to endure over history are far worse. Read my previous argument on this page. Lynchings, Mobbings, Slavery, Denial of education, Exploitation, segregation, and Jim crow laws alone put that struggle up and you saying that being homosexual is braver isn't someyhing I agree with. You can draw the similarities that you mentioned from any rights movement but that doesnt make them the same. That what makes them right movements. Like the womens right movement, disability rights movement, and Native American rights movement. The whole 20th century proved braver.

#200 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

US is already in the crap.. Rest of the world has been already flushed though... Nyehehehehe!