Homophobia in Hip Hop

  My stance? I just can't do it man, can't judge people unless they actually do something, then even then. You claimed the guy judging people based on avatars would be irrational. Except most of what you have used to reason your stance has essentially been opinion, lacking any actual reasoning that isn't flawed or exploitable. Based on limited and subjective understandings. You have a fair and sound reason true, your content with your stance, it doesn't hurt anyone, but in a very real sense, its as relatively irrational as the hypothetical man judging avatars. In fact I could take most of your post and substitute in arguments he could make to point this out.   "

"@SC said:

  My stance? I just can't do it man, can't judge people unless they actually do something, then even then. You claimed the guy judging people based on avatars would be irrational. Except most of what you have used to reason your stance has essentially been opinion, lacking any actual reasoning that isn't flawed or exploitable. Based on limited and subjective understandings. You have a fair and sound reason true, your content with your stance, it doesn't hurt anyone, but in a very real sense, its as relatively irrational as the hypothetical man judging avatars. In fact I could take most of your post and substitute in arguments he could make to point this out.   "

I didn't claim that someone judging another person based on an avatar would be irrational.What I said is for someone to think that because I have a Nicki Minaj avatar I want to be a girl or I am a man who wants to be like Nicki.That's an irrational observation.If someone were to look at it and think that I was a girl or a gay man (because alot of her fans are) I couldn't fault them for that because I make my own assumptions based on avatars if I didn't know someone on these forums, but whatever the assumption is it's not as farfetched as that.That is nonsensical thing to think by looking at an avatar.I'm not stating that a man who dresses a certain way doesn't deserve respect as a fact.It IS an opinion and I acknowledge that.But in no way is basing what you think about someone one what you can ACTUALLY see comparable to basing your opinion on what you can't (avatars).None of these scenarios are actually comparable.MOST men don't wear skirts and they aren't supposed to because they aren't made for them..that's why the majority doesn't.Thus to do so is abnormal. "

"@Vance Astro:
yeah, but to say "most men don't" or that "they weren't made for men" is from a very limited perspective 
in America, in the 21st century  men don't wear skirts or skirt like clothing 
but in other parts of the world 
and for centuries before this one 
men wore kilts, togas, tunics, wraps, sherwanis, kaftas, whatever it is they wear at the Vatican 
don't generalize people based on what's normal for you 
you aren't at the center of the universe   
you aren't the standard for what is and isn't normal or okay
normal and abnormal are relative terms 
I, for one, think it is highly abnormal not to accept what others do in their everyday life as normal for them but that's just me  if someone dresses as another gender, and that's normal for them, then it doesn't matter what's normal for me because I'm not them what's normal for me isn't normal for you I think liking Nicki Minaj and her creepy wigs is sort of abnormal  well....I think her look is abnormal I don't understand why everyone wants to generalize everyone no one knows what's right for someone else and thinking you do is jsut basically a form of judgement, because you are assuming what they are doing is wrong and that you are right for not doing so "

  @Mr. Mercury: Definitely not blaming whites/europeans for all the problems of Africans in the diaspora but im not going to allow anyone to ignore the roots of the problem.

" @Billy Batson said:

" My theory is that Eminem is gay. Problem Aztek? :PPPPP "

nope, he came out of the closet years ago 
 
  

"

" @aztek the lost: you make some very good points but my whole thing is this:  we don't use words that others find racist we don't use words that belittle people based on their religion it's not even socially acceptable to make fun of the morbidly obese any more one of the very few things that it is socially acceptable to make fun of, is gays and transgendered people and when the music people listens to paints a picture of that group of people, even if it's only be using words that belittle them in everyday speech (even when it's not about a gay person) the message you're sending is that it's okay to use those words and for kids and even adults who have no real life experience dealing with gay or transgendered people, the only thing they have to base their opinions on are what their friends, their families and the people they respect feel about them (and what they learn for tv, but don't get me started on the way gays protray themselves on tv, it's far worse than anything Eminem ever said)  all I can say is that no one, no one AT ALL would ever be okay with a popular country music artist coming about with a song where he called or reffered to someone as a "darky" or a "spick" or a "heeb" or any other myriad of racial or anti-semetic slur  is it because they don't use those words? I'd like to think so, but let's get real  the message it's sending is is that it's okay to classify people that way  the message is it's okay to think someone is a "fag" if you dont' like what they're about or who they are or what they do it's breeding a generation of fans who will think that it's not jsut okay to look down at someone for being a "fag," it's okay to call them that I just can't believe that we have come so far as a people that we now live in an era of black bigots, where it's completely socially acceptable to be dumb as long as you're rich, hateful as long as you're clever, and a "real man" as long as you're anything but a fag trust me, I don't know if I should be more afraid oif the WBC picketting my church and telling people that I'm a blight to all creation, or the group of kids who tried to beat up my bf a few months ago for "bringing his faggot ass" into "their neighorhood" did these teen and preteen kids know a bunch of gay people that soured them on gays as a whole? or are they just so used to hearing that word that it doesn't bother them to call someone out for being one? you tell me "

"@aztek the lost: you make some very good points but my whole thing is this:  we don't use words that others find racist we don't use words that belittle people based on their religion it's not even socially acceptable to make fun of the morbidly obese any more one of the very few things that it is socially acceptable to make fun of, is gays and transgendered people  "

" @sesquipedalophobe: 
 agreed 
another sad reprecussion of the information age? 
everyone thinks they are right because they know that someone else agrees with them 
"well, I think being gay is gross.....and THIS guy thinks it's gross....and there's this website I go to about how gross it is.....I MUST BE RIGHT! GAYS = GROSS! Gotcha.....and also, there were no dinosaurs...." 

@Billy Batson: thank you, Broseph Gordon Levitt "

" @Sha said:

"

                    There is tons of speculation that most Rappers are gay themselves lol

                   

                "

No homo...... But your right.... "

" @Billy Batson said:

" @aztek the lost: did you watch the interview? "

oh yeah, watched that months ago, pretty funny actually... "

" @Vance Astro:
yeah, but to say "most men don't" or that "they weren't made for men" is from a very limited perspective 
in America, in the 21st century  men don't wear skirts or skirt like clothing 
but in other parts of the world 
and for centuries before this one 
men wore kilts, togas, tunics, wraps, sherwanis, kaftas, whatever it is they wear at the Vatican 
don't generalize people based on what's normal for you 
you aren't at the center of the universe   
you aren't the standard for what is and isn't normal or okay
normal and abnormal are relative terms 
I, for one, think it is highly abnormal not to accept what others do in their everyday life as normal for them but that's just me  if someone dresses as another gender, and that's normal for them, then it doesn't matter what's normal for me because I'm not them what's normal for me isn't normal for you I think liking Nicki Minaj and her creepy wigs is sort of abnormal  well....I think her look is abnormal I don't understand why everyone wants to generalize everyone no one knows what's right for someone else and thinking you do is jsut basically a form of judgement, because you are assuming what they are doing is wrong and that you are right for not doing so "

" @SC said:

  My stance? I just can't do it man, can't judge people unless they actually do something, then even then. You claimed the guy judging people based on avatars would be irrational. Except most of what you have used to reason your stance has essentially been opinion, lacking any actual reasoning that isn't flawed or exploitable. Based on limited and subjective understandings. You have a fair and sound reason true, your content with your stance, it doesn't hurt anyone, but in a very real sense, its as relatively irrational as the hypothetical man judging avatars. In fact I could take most of your post and substitute in arguments he could make to point this out.   "

I didn't claim that someone judging another person based on an avatar would be irrational.What I said is for someone to think that because I have a Nicki Minaj avatar I want to be a girl or I am a man who wants to be like Nicki.That's an irrational observation.If someone were to look at it and think that I was a girl or a gay man (because alot of her fans are) I couldn't fault them for that because I make my own assumptions based on avatars if I didn't know someone on these forums, but whatever the assumption is it's not as farfetched as that.That is nonsensical thing to think by looking at an avatar.I'm not stating that a man who dresses a certain way doesn't deserve respect as a fact.It IS an opinion and I acknowledge that.But in no way is basing what you think about someone one what you can ACTUALLY see comparable to basing your opinion on what you can't (avatars).None of these scenarios are actually comparable.MOST men don't wear skirts and they aren't supposed to because they aren't made for them..that's why the majority doesn't.Thus to do so is abnormal. "

" @Shadowdoggy said:

" @Vance Astro:
yeah, but to say "most men don't" or that "they weren't made for men" is from a very limited perspective 
in America, in the 21st century  men don't wear skirts or skirt like clothing 
but in other parts of the world 
and for centuries before this one 
men wore kilts, togas, tunics, wraps, sherwanis, kaftas, whatever it is they wear at the Vatican 
don't generalize people based on what's normal for you 
you aren't at the center of the universe   
you aren't the standard for what is and isn't normal or okay
normal and abnormal are relative terms 
I, for one, think it is highly abnormal not to accept what others do in their everyday life as normal for them but that's just me  if someone dresses as another gender, and that's normal for them, then it doesn't matter what's normal for me because I'm not them what's normal for me isn't normal for you I think liking Nicki Minaj and her creepy wigs is sort of abnormal  well....I think her look is abnormal I don't understand why everyone wants to generalize everyone no one knows what's right for someone else and thinking you do is jsut basically a form of judgement, because you are assuming what they are doing is wrong and that you are right for not doing so "

That's not a limited perspective..it's a fact.Most men DON'T wear women's clothes.They don't make women's clothes to be sold to men.That defeats the purpose of them being called "women's clothes".Kilts,togas,tunics,wraps or anything else that RESEMBLES a skirt isn't the same as what I am talking about.I'm talking about someone CLEARLY wearing clothes designed FOR WOMEN. "

 What's the the practical difference between judging a person as having an avatar and then a person to think that because you have a Nicki Minaj avatar you want to be a girl or that you are a man who wants to be like Nicki, and that being an irrational observation? Are you looking for a discussion in semantics? I thought you didn't like those. You realize that a person making an irrational observation can be the direct subsequent step, from a person making a judgement of another person based on an avatar right? Why would you make such a redundant point? Did you think when I used the term irrational that I would imply a person would turn into the concept of irrationality for ever and ever?  
 
Its not, like I have said each time before, a matter whether you fault them or not for a persons assumptions. You think guys wearing skirts with leggings fault you thinking what you think about them?  
 
I know its a nonsensical thing to think that by looking at someone's avatar lol, why do you think I brought it up as an analogy? I am saying that its the same (relatively, don't get tripped up by thinking I mean 100% the same) to to think and do the same with peoples clothes. You see a guy in a skirt and you have negative prejudice. You have had issues with other people who do the same thing with hip hop. Like I also said way back when, I ain't judging you or saying you shouldn't. I am just making the connection thats fairly obvious. People generalize and they project, and like you already know, because you have stated, sometimes those projections are false.  
 
I know your not stating that a man who dresses a certain way doesn't deserve respect as a fact.  
 
I know your stating an opinion, I ain't disputing that. Most negative prejudices generalized and projected to the masses usually are opinions lol 
 
In no way? Well see thats just hyperbole. You sentence structure is sorta funky too, why would you introduce an absolute (no way), then follow it up with a clear variable (comparable) if you look about my pretty clear way of comparing the two is pretty clear. You take a visual sample of a subject, you associate negatives for what ever reason you do, then you project negative prejudice generalized against a group. You deny they are different?  
 
Okay see the bit I underlined for you? Is that also opinion in your own eyes? Most men don't have female avatars to have to re-re-re-repeat again. You can't introduce a ratio to try and downplay female avatars use by males because for you its common (unless you are trying to justify why you personally don't find it abnormal, that justification as an opinion available to men that wear skirts). Like I said, is there only one guy in the world wearing skirts and leggings? From their perspective most is relative and hence as normal as well. You can't introduce discretion between seeing something with your own eyes, and not as the only variables, like you say way back, no body "knows" you here, you can because their are obviously more perspectives available to people beyond seeing an avatar and seeing a person. Likewise you know your best friend a lot more than you know the guy in the skirt. So your still projecting accurate and inaccurate information about that person. To state the obvious, of course your not projecting as much accuracy/inaccuracy by viewing a persons avatar. Even less just a username, even less if you hear what sex or gender a person is.   Then if your underlined statement is meant as an objective statement, then I dunno man, you might watch to much TV or have too much of a westernized view of the world. Like I said before, suits were made for the British. Are you British? Do you see other people wearing suits that are not? Do you think, 'jolly ol, good chap, that suit was designing for me and my country men, why are you wearing it?' Would you like me to quote the dictionary again? It disagrees with you again on the matter lol, there are some definitions specific to females, but most are not, since its a cultural projection, one that because of that subjectivity people subvert all the time. Not just with skirts, everything, wearing clothes backwards, skinny dudes when they first started wearing baggy pants designed for bigger people. People wear clothes that aren't designed for them specifically almost more than they don't. People just do what they want. Its the human way. You think only guys with skirts do this?  Oh wait, because your personal life experience and familiarity, with low pants, you find that common right? Especially now people actually make them that for people? So you project that as normal? Except people who have their own life's experiences and familiarity with things don't count? Can you tell me what a Dhoti is? Lavalava? Mundu?   Anyway, if you underlined bit is opinion? As in what you personally project from what you know? Thats cool, you could pretty much ignore my last two paragraphs. I thank you for giving me your opinion, its pretty interesting. I personally think as an opinion holding such views contributes to racism and sexism. Why judge people on clothes instead of the contents of their actions and decisions funded by your thoughts, but you have also clearly expressed own criticism of your opinions, which is a pretty big thing to do and admit. If you were expressing the underlined bit as more? Like objective information? Well, my replies above for you, I look forward to your reply. ^___^ "

Woah bro, I didn't know we could just change the definitions of words? What's clear to you apparently isn't clear to everyone else. Other people use the same lingo to justify their intolerances too. Schools CLEARLY, were not created for black people, asian people, polynesian people, school is meant for highly cultured WHITE PEOPLE. I mean, there are other places that RESEMBLES a school, where those savages learn to do what savages.   Just because a women, RESEMBLES a man, don't give her a right to vote. Most men AREN'T women. That defeats the purpose of having no Wo at the beginning. Lack of it shows our superiority so do our larger frames and muscles. Its a fact!   Yet again, you ignore, or forget that your applying specifications that aren't just limited to gender. People design clothes for certain size people, people don't care, they wear what they want. Pants for me were designed to be made to be worn around the waist, enough people subverted that they created their own brand, style of new clothing. People do with what they have access to. Girls where guys clothes all the time. People wear clothes not specifically or generally meant for them all the time. Denial of this is pretty limited thinking. If pants designed to be worn low, all disappeared tomorrow, what? You gonna give up and start wearing baggy pants as high as Urkel? Or just do what you want?  "

" Alot of people base their opinions off of observation.I don't see what way you think judging someone based on an avatar is the same basing your opinion on seeing THEM.I'm not looking for a discussion in semantics.I honestly don't care that much about men who dress like women.I really don't.The bottom line is that style of dress to me is not respectable.That's all. "

" I didn't change the definition of anything.A toga is NOT a skirt,a tunic is NOT a skirt etc. etc.The kilt is the only garment mentioned that is actually a skirt.It is however a man's garment.Togas and tunics and most other garments mentioned weren't created FOR women thus the comparison is pointless.The comparison being made to what I am saying is also being applied to just skirts...skirts aren't the only garment designed specifically for women.Girls wear guys clothes all the time? And? How many types of clothes can you actually say are designed specifically for men, the way skirts are for women,the way blouses are for women, the way bustiers are designed for women etc. etc. "

" @Vance Astro said:

" Alot of people base their opinions off of observation.I don't see what way you think judging someone based on an avatar is the same basing your opinion on seeing THEM.I'm not looking for a discussion in semantics.I honestly don't care that much about men who dress like women.I really don't.The bottom line is that style of dress to me is not respectable.That's all. "

 Thats true, I am not disputing that they don't. Some people actually use critical though processes to change, alter and modify their opinions too, pretty cool right? Its great because people are inherently prejudiced, and life only tends to make them more so until education starts, and it doesn't always do a good job. In any case though its great because it cuts down on people disliking, being fearful, or hating on what's different to themselves.  You see a person, you don't know them. Like I said, a person you saw on the street today, do you know that as much as your best friend? Yes or no question? I mean, I hope the answer is no. So in that case, you can project a lot more info about that person based on your initial observation of them. The same is with an avatar. You project. Now when you project information on a person, you can be accurate, or inaccurate. The more you project the more prejudice can be an issue. One guy sees a female avatar, he projects info, (he could be wrong or he could be accurate)  like if someone had a Red Skull avatar? Yet a guy projects that he must be a racist neo nazi in real life? He projects negativity. He might be right? There is probably almost certainly, due to numbers, a neo nazi out there wearing a Red Skull avatar. He could be wrong as well, some dudes on this site have them.  Some one sees a guy in a skirt, same thing, visual observation, not knowing that well either, projection of information, that might be right? Or wrong? Applying a negative projection? Based on clothes? Same as applying a negative projection based on an avatar. Not exclusive in these two frames either. Applicable with everything with varying degrees of knowledge/ignorance and accuracy and inaccuracy.   Its a similar thought process with racism and sexism. Guy sees a brown skinned guy? Doesn't know him well, makes projections about that individual. Drawing a conclusion based on skin color that he must have did jail time? A negative projection. May be accurate, may be inaccurate.   I ignored your last two sentences, because I already know, lol, and I am not disputing that. I am not really disputing anything you say, I respect your right to have an opinion, I am just drawing parallels to other behavior of other people. If you want to challenge that aspect, I am game. I am not saying they are exactly the same, I am about the specifics within the generalizations.  "

" @Vance Astro said:

" I didn't change the definition of anything.A toga is NOT a skirt,a tunic is NOT a skirt etc. etc.The kilt is the only garment mentioned that is actually a skirt.It is however a man's garment.Togas and tunics and most other garments mentioned weren't created FOR women thus the comparison is pointless.The comparison being made to what I am saying is also being applied to just skirts...skirts aren't the only garment designed specifically for women.Girls wear guys clothes all the time? And? How many types of clothes can you actually say are designed specifically for men, the way skirts are for women,the way blouses are for women, the way bustiers are designed for women etc. etc. "

 Did I say Toga? Anyway, you can use caps all you want, you can't change objective information and fact. lol Only your own subjective stance on the facts. Many of the items I referenced ARE classified and defined as skirts. Oh wait, caps right? SKIRTS. Plus I feel your not so good at looking at examples, arguments used together to make a point right? You sorta misconstrue the point there with and in regards to the organic and shifting nature of clothes and terminology, and how culturally such terms are applied. You are aware I know the guys you are talking about a wearing skirts with the intent of being for women right? I am saying you are still generalizing. You think that clothes are just designed for gender? INCORRECT ASSERTION if this is the case. All people subvert their clothes, like in the examples, I gave about age, size, not just gender. So you almost seem to not understand the argument I present, because its in that conjunction with skirt terminology that THE, the point is FOUND.  Ditto you offer no explanation with regards to why I assume your country men are wearing clothes not designed for them in bulk. lol Coolio Iglesias?  "

" Just looking at someone...whatever I think about them should be fine because I don't know them personally.I have very good friends who thought certain things about me before we actually had time to get to know each other.I don't know somone I saw on the street as much as I know my best friend, no. But because I don't know people I just see on the street I don't feel bad for having an inaccurate view because it doesn't matter.They will never know that I had those thoughts unless I told them.So it doesn't hurt anyone to just have thoughts.I don't react to people in a certain way because of their choices or how they are.If my sister came home tonight and introduced me to a friend and it was a guy wearing a blouse,skin tight jeans and high heels.I would shake his hand like a man..I might even converse with him.However if she asked me to go to a restaurant with them..I wouldn't go because I don't want to be seen with someone who is wearing that.I don't respect it.  As far as your avatar scenario with the Red Skull..If I thought someone who had an avatar like that was a racist.Who does it hurt? If I never tell him that I think he's a racist..who am I hurting by thinking that? I mean you're saying that this is the same type of thinking with racism and sexism but that's to the extremes because my lack of respect for a man who wears women's clothes isn't so much about what I believe about their personality or how they act..It's more so my belief that, that style ofd dress is not respectable, just like so many people would choose not to respect me for wearing baggy jeans.That's nothing like racism or sexism because I have a choice as to whether I wear those jeans or not.I didn't have a choice of whether to be born black or not. "

 This is good though, I feel you get my point now lol ^__^ "

"Even if you want to say that all of those garments ARE skirts that doesn't change the fact that someone is specifically pointing out a garment that resembles something today's woman would wear in comparison to A man wearing something HE KNOWS is made for women.It doesn't matter who wears,tunics,kilts,togas or any other skirt\dress like garment.Those things have nothing to do with the point I was making.Clothes ARE designed for genders..if they weren't you wouldn't go in stores and see separated departments for gender specific clothes.Skirts weren't sold in men's department as long as you've existed on this earth. "

" @SC said:

 This is good though, I feel you get my point now lol ^__^ "

Don't take the fact that I am only choosing to respond to this part of you sentence as my not appreciating your perspective on this.Honestly I do.I do understand where your coming from now and I enjoyed this discussion.I haven't responded to someone like this on CV in months because you were of the few people left that actually give me a valid enough response to that a discussion may continue. "

 your a cool dude! ^__^ Laters  "