Habemus Papam Franciscum

A new pope has been elected. Pope Francis the 1st. Catholics can party....Screw it, everybody can party. Even atheists.

Ah I wonder if he is gonna just quit as well?

:D

Can I celebrate? No I cant I might when some of the ill doings in the Catholic church is brought to justice,when children are not sexually abused anymore etc.But until them just another pope added to this out of date institution.

A South American Pope? Suck it, North America!

New Catholic Pope???
 
Choir boys be getting laid tonight.....

@mrdecepticonleader said:

Ah I wonder if he is gonna just quit as well?

:D

Can I celebrate? No I cant I might when some of the ill doings in the Catholic church is brought to justice,when children are not sexually abused anymore etc.But until them just another pope added to this out of date institution.

You're an idiot. Just because a few priests are dirtballs doesn't mean the whole church is. Their are parents who do that sh!t to their kids, but does that make all parents horrible? Hell no.

Personally, I like the new pope. And I definitely like his name choice.

@mrdecepticonleader said:

Ah I wonder if he is gonna just quit as well?

:D

Can I celebrate? No I cant I might when some of the ill doings in the Catholic church is brought to justice,when children are not sexually abused anymore etc.But until them just another pope added to this out of date institution.

You're an idiot. Just because a few priests are dirtballs doesn't mean the whole church is. Their are parents who do that sh!t to their kids, but does that make all parents horrible? Hell no.

Personally, I like the new pope. And I definitely like his name choice.

@King Saturn: There's multiple of any occupation who are child molesters. Sick assholes like that are everywhere, and I've even found out that some people I've met have been child molesters. It's not like it's just Catholic Priests.

@mrdecepticonleader said:

Ah I wonder if he is gonna just quit as well?

:D

Can I celebrate? No I cant I might when some of the ill doings in the Catholic church is brought to justice,when children are not sexually abused anymore etc.But until them just another pope added to this out of date institution.

Party Pooper!

@King Saturn: There's multiple of any occupation who are child molesters. Sick assholes like that are everywhere, and I've even found out that some people I've met have been child molesters. It's not like it's just Catholic Priests.

@blackadamFTW said:

@mrdecepticonleader said:

Ah I wonder if he is gonna just quit as well?

:D

Can I celebrate? No I cant I might when some of the ill doings in the Catholic church is brought to justice,when children are not sexually abused anymore etc.But until them just another pope added to this out of date institution.

You're an idiot. Just because a few priests are dirtballs doesn't mean the whole church is. Their are parents who do that sh!t to their kids, but does that make all parents horrible? Hell no.

Personally, I like the new pope. And I definitely like his name choice.

There is no need to resort to petty insults.It really doesn't add to anything.

But its not just a few priests and why have they not been found brought to justice for their crimes? Hmm? Its been covered up and that is profoundly disgusting and it is just left to carry on.

And what about the spread of sexual disease in Africa where the Catholic church has a strong influence and states that condoms are a sin or something those lines,all the deaths they have on their hands.And all this and we have the popes and cardinals draped in wealth and hold an influence over thousands of people.Its utterly ridiculous things need to change.

And where did I actually say it was the whole church?

@ssejllenrad said:

@mrdecepticonleader said:

Ah I wonder if he is gonna just quit as well?

:D

Can I celebrate? No I cant I might when some of the ill doings in the Catholic church is brought to justice,when children are not sexually abused anymore etc.But until them just another pope added to this out of date institution.

Party Pooper!

lol

@King Saturn: While I agree that some people in the church do not handle the matter well, I don't think people should blame the entire church for it. The pope has nothing to do with it, so when people insult or say something dickish about him, it ticks me off. @mrdecepticonleader said:

But its not just a few priests and why have they not been found brought to justice for their crimes? Hmm? Its been covered up and that is profoundly disgusting and it is just left to carry on.

Many of the priests have been brought to justice, and the others that haven't usually keep it between the one being assaulted and themselves. While there have been some who have covered it up in the church, that's really not the case for most of the incidents.

And what about the spread of sexual disease in Africa where the Catholic church has a strong influence and states that condoms are a sin or something those lines,all the deaths they have on their hands.And all this and we have the popes and cardinals draped in wealth and hold an influence over thousands of people.Its utterly ridiculous things need to change.

What's this have to do with anything? And what you're saying doesn't even make sense. Most of Africa is Muslim not Catholic. Even if it was mostly Catholic, what does the Church's view on condom's have to do with anything? African's don't have access to condoms. Even if they did, they couldn't afford them. So, how do they have any deaths on their hands due to HIV in Africa? Really, how? Also, bringing up the wealth of the cardinals and pope is also stupid. The current pope would use the bus to get to work. They don't act like millionaires. Plus, even though some do make a lot of money, Catholic charities so so much to help those in Africa (which kind of counteracts your other point). Food for the Poor has saved thousands of lives, the people who run it don't make much money at all.

A new pope can mean big changes to the church. If you write him off on his first day, then you're just making noise for the sake of being indignant against the church. At least give the man a chance to act.

I personally wish him good luck, and hope he brings the church into a new light. As a catholic is pains me to see the church in its current state and I know it can be revolutionized.

So it took less than a page to get from "Hope! Diversity! Change! Party!" to "Child molestation! Gross generalizations! HIV!"

I'm sorry, @Necrotic_Lycanthrope. You tried.

@blackadamFTW said:

@King Saturn: While I agree that some people in the church do not handle the matter well, I don't think people should blame the entire church for it. The pope has nothing to do with it, so when people insult or say something dickish about him, it ticks me off. @mrdecepticonleader said:

But its not just a few priests and why have they not been found brought to justice for their crimes? Hmm? Its been covered up and that is profoundly disgusting and it is just left to carry on.

Many of the priests have been brought to justice, and the others that haven't usually keep it between the one being assaulted and themselves. While there have been some who have covered it up in the church, that's really not the case for most of the incidents.

And what about the spread of sexual disease in Africa where the Catholic church has a strong influence and states that condoms are a sin or something those lines,all the deaths they have on their hands.And all this and we have the popes and cardinals draped in wealth and hold an influence over thousands of people.Its utterly ridiculous things need to change.

What's this have to do with anything? And what you're saying doesn't even make sense. Most of Africa is Muslim not Catholic. Even if it was mostly Catholic, what does the Church's view on condom's have to do with anything? African's don't have access to condoms. Even if they did, they couldn't afford them. So, how do they have any deaths on their hands due to HIV in Africa? Really, how? Also, bringing up the wealth of the cardinals and pope is also stupid. The current pope would use the bus to get to work. They don't act like millionaires. Plus, even though some do make a lot of money, Catholic charities so so much to help those in Africa (which kind of counteracts your other point). Food for the Poor has saved thousands of lives, the people who run it don't make much money at all.

How are we to know that? So some have been brought to justice but the fact it was covered up as well.It still goes on now I bet but nothing is done about it.I mean they preach against homosexuality and claim to be morally superior all the while priests are raping three year olds.The amount of hypocrisy.

No its not Christianity is one of the most widely practiced religions in Africa.As I said the church has a huge influence on what people can and cant do (another problem I have with it as well) and because so many people are catholic they listen to its dismal of condoms thus HIV spreads due to that dismal.

Why is it? They sit in wealth with their vast influence.They don't act like millionaires? really? with all their nice clothes,gold and big churches,there bullet proof cars.No they don't act like they are rich and above everyone else at all. :p

Not it doesn't contradict my point at all because its happening because of them.

@blackadamFTW: You know better, dude. No insults.

Catholic Church is doing great! More of its former members like Kevin Lee, one among many are bravely coming forward to explain the systematic cover ups by the organizations they were a part of. I mean its one thing for Catholics/religious to get upset and angry at non Catholics/religious when they make accusations of overgeneralization and going on about this subject all the time, when its only a few incidents, and insert other deflective argument about not judging a whole group by the actions of some (wait many people don't do that at all, the irony) but when actual Catholic priests and bishops actually come forward to actually explain the horrific circumstances, then well what then eh? I am a fan of people, not a fan of people who feel imaginary insult at the very thought at something being associated with their critiqued, or not complying with how they view things. Thing is this is a huge deal. Not just the acts, but the cover ups and manipulations and the evasion to avoid damaging the Church's reputation. Its almost like the higher ups of that organization know that many people only react and act of reputation and perception and nothing actually reasonable, substantial or no pun intended real.

Good luck to the new Pope, hopefully he is there to improve things by addressing things and not deny, evade, distract over and over again, and also try not keep its followers in the dark or under leash. We have had a Pope who believed in evolution. Thats great, religions need to adapt and evolve or die.

I do hope that the new pope can bring much needed changes.But until he actually starts to I remain skeptical.

Also I have not made any over generalizations I am aware that not all Catholics are like that nor have I actually stated so I just pointed out the things I don't like about the church as all

Just posting that to clear things up.

@mrdecepticonleader said:

@ssejllenrad said:

@mrdecepticonleader said:

Ah I wonder if he is gonna just quit as well?

:D

Can I celebrate? No I cant I might when some of the ill doings in the Catholic church is brought to justice,when children are not sexually abused anymore etc.But until them just another pope added to this out of date institution.

Party Pooper!

lol

Still don't want to party?

@ssejllenrad said:

@mrdecepticonleader said:

@ssejllenrad said:

@mrdecepticonleader said:

Ah I wonder if he is gonna just quit as well?

:D

Can I celebrate? No I cant I might when some of the ill doings in the Catholic church is brought to justice,when children are not sexually abused anymore etc.But until them just another pope added to this out of date institution.

Party Pooper!

lol

Still don't want to party?

Ha ha ha ha ha!

@akbogert:

I should have known the first instance of the word Catholic would bring in molestations.

Maybe if I start writing about the molestations in the elementary schools in Los Angeles it'll cause a reaction as well. (those teachers are protected on all sides by their union representatives, regardless if they did the crime or not.)

@King Saturn said:

@blackadamFTW said:

@mrdecepticonleader said:

Ah I wonder if he is gonna just quit as well?

:D

Can I celebrate? No I cant I might when some of the ill doings in the Catholic church is brought to justice,when children are not sexually abused anymore etc.But until them just another pope added to this out of date institution.

You're an idiot. Just because a few priests are dirtballs doesn't mean the whole church is. Their are parents who do that sh!t to their kids, but does that make all parents horrible? Hell no.

Personally, I like the new pope. And I definitely like his name choice.

but it isn't just a few priests... it's multiple priests... and when we see child molesters in our own community we get those muthafooks sent to jail... we don't just try and cover that sh!t up like the catholic church was trying to do...

Ok, so what about the:

• Protestant practitioner child molesters
• Anglican practitioner child molesters
• Calvin practitioner child molesters
• Pentecostal practitioner child molesters
• Baptist practitioner child molesters
• Methodist practitioner child molesters
• Morman practitioner child molesters
• Jehovah's Witness practitioner child molesters
• Sha'iyah Islam practitioner child molesters
• Sunni Islam practitioner child molesters
• Azraqiah Islam practitioner child molesters
• Najadat Islam practitioner child molesters
• Hamziyah Islam practitioner child molesters
• Ma'badiyah Islam practitioner child molesters
• Jubbaiyah Islam practitioner child molesters
• Hujjatiya Islam practitioner child molesters
• Yaqubiyya Islam practitioner child molesters
• Confucius practitioner child molesters
• Taoist practitioner child molesters
• Buddist practitioner child molesters
• Shintoist practitioner child molesters
• Daoist practitioner child molesters
• Hindustan practitioner child molesters
• Jainist practitioner child molesters
• Shikist practitioner child molesters
• Vuudooist practitioner child molesters
• Atheist practitioner child molesters
• Scientology practitioner child molesters

Don't forget about those guys.

What is the problem here?

The Catholic Church has an extraordinary amount of child molesters amongst it ranks but what makes this fact even more disgusting is that as an institution, it has actively suppressed this -- have played switch-em around with priests all the while not preventing these same criminals from being around children --- continuing to sexually assault more children -- new victims.

Don't like it -- too bad. It's the truth -- isn't that what should be promoted and encouraged? It doesn't take much to learn the truth --- it's there and people who cry foul when this is brought up are doing what exactly? What is your point? Are you suggesting that Catholicism has "suffered" enough? That they are discriminated against? This is the fault of the priests and the system in which they have been allowed to get away and continue to engage in this behaviour. I am sure new cases are dropping (with all this exposure) but does that mean past horrors can't be brought out?

If anything -- I was kinda hoping the Canadian cardinal was going to get in there -- if only to push through groups here who have been pushing to get their stories acknowledged.

The choosing of a new pope is the perfect time to have this discussion. The Roman Catholic Church has a lot to answer to -- a lot.

So yes -- -here's to a new Pope. Let's see if he will put a stop to the spread of AIDs and HIV and STDs and pregnancies in underdeveloped countries.

Also -- Africa has the highest numbers of Catholic conversion -- guess all those micro loans and goats and water and food comes with a price --- whether it's stipulated or not.

Hopefully the new pope will be less 'conservative' and will actually help progression of basic knowledge about HIV and the use of condoms etc instead of slowing it down. Though to be completely honest, i wish they picked a younger pope (40-50) who's more 'in tune' with the world. We'll have hundreds of journalists digging through his past now though, so really... It's just waiting for the next scandal to pop up...

@lykopis said:

What is the problem here?

The Catholic Church has an extraordinary amount of child molesters amongst it ranks but what makes this fact even more disgusting is that as an institution, it has actively suppressed this -- have played switch-em around with priests all the while not preventing these same criminals from being around children --- continuing to sexually assault more children -- new victims.

Don't like it -- too bad. It's the truth -- isn't that what should be promoted and encouraged? It doesn't take much to learn the truth --- it's there and people who cry foul when this is brought up are doing what exactly? What is your point? Are you suggesting that Catholicism has "suffered" enough? That they are discriminated against? This is the fault of the priests and the system in which they have been allowed to get away and continue to engage in this behaviour. I am sure new cases are dropping (with all this exposure) but does that mean past horrors can't be brought out?

If anything -- I was kinda hoping the Canadian cardinal was going to get in there -- if only to push through groups here who have been pushing to get their stories acknowledged.

The choosing of a new pope is the perfect time to have this discussion. The Roman Catholic Church has a lot to answer to -- a lot.

So yes -- -here's to a new Pope. Let's see if he will put a stop to the spread of AIDs and HIV and STDs and pregnancies in underdeveloped countries.

Also -- Africa has the highest numbers of Catholic conversion -- guess all those micro loans and goats and water and food comes with a price --- whether it's stipulated or not.

Unlike dictatorships which actively suppress in attempts to stop behaviors from happening, the Catholic church cannot force anything to happen. At one point they did, to often extremely negative results. But nowadays they're symbolic.

So I'd rather that the damn warlords in Africa quit their children crusades and crimes against humanity and at least try doing something resembling good by allowing aid into impoverished areas to treat and teach sexual diseases and the negativity of unprotected underage sex.

The pope chosen is a good choice. I'd rather not have a Canadian (or North American in general) chosen because of this strife and of liberal bias (there are Catholics in the states that support abortion. Disgusting, but true.)

Plus I'd like to see Communist countries down south deal with a Jesuit. And not the Fidel Castro-type of Jesuit either.

@blackadamFTW: Don't even argue with those liberal thinkers.

Almost all of Islamic Shaikh (Priests) are child molesters and even marry children to older men

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty

http://www.islam-watch.org/MuminSalih/child-abuse-islam.htm

They think Catholics are the only ones in the Christian branches that are accused of child molestation? Think again.

Jehovah Witness ministers have cases of molestations.

Just like the Catholics, they claim they are against it, but they require a "2 Witnesses Rule" in order to make a serious case for the victim. So if a minister is molesting one child, there has to be another witness to see it just to make a case.

There's even a case where the Jehovah Witness church had to pay $28 Million for a woman "they" (see what I did there?) molested when she was a child. She won, they payed her to shut up. But it happened.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/18/us/28-million-awarded-in-jehovahs-witnesses-abuse-case.html?_r=0

What about the Hindu religion? Yes, the Guru's there molest children too.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/swamiprakash/swamiprakash3.html

http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.com/2011/02/hindu-guru-in-spain-charged-with.html

What about the Buddhist? Surely enlightenment doesn't mean to molest children to achieve enlightenment. Errrr... Some monks and Abits molest children too.

http://www.examiner.com/article/alleged-sexual-abuse-by-buddhist-monk-sparks-protests-two-states

http://www.tamilguardian.com/article.asp?articleid=4985

Ok well, all of these are religions... Can't trust them right. So I rather trust non religious groups.

Nope! not safe there either.

Even Atheists love children for sex:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/comments13.htm

http://www.arn.org/docs/williams/pw_atheismandchildabuse.htm

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/alt.atheism/4oeroi8vjmc

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2550190/posts

Scientology? "They" molest children too.

http://www.sott.net/article/247576-Cover-up-of-pedophile-child-sexual-abuse-by-Scientology

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2012/02/scientology_shane_kelsey_rpf.php

https://whyweprotest.net/community/threads/scientology-child-abuse-the-abuses-suri-cruise-was-spared.103487/

So you're right @blackadamFTW:

It doesn't matter what religion. Child molesters are everywhere. It's just that LIBERALS only like to point the finger at Catholics for some odd reason only TOAA knows why.

One thing which does tend to confuse me about the condom point (not that I know enough about this specific situation to be trying to defend it, just noting something):

I'm not Catholic, so I'm not positive, but isn't the hardline stance abstinence outside of marriage? And wouldn't abstinence preclude a great deal of the rampant spreading of STDs and unwanted or unsupportable pregnancies? If the Catholic church does not condone extramarital sex, then it really has no need to be changing its policies to deal with problems which come as a result of ignoring that policy. I'm not going to try to discuss the ethics or the medical questions of the policies within marriage (because sure, there is still a lot of complicated stuff going on there), but unless someone has statistics which show otherwise, I'm going to guess that a lot of those rampant problems stem from already ignoring Catholic rules (in which case, if you're going to have the sex you're not supposed to, why not also use the condom you're not supposed to?).

It just doesn't seem to me to be the church's job to teach its followers the best way to disobey the church's own rules. Not that pregnancy education and family planning and disease awareness and such shouldn't be taught about, of course. Just that it's a little dumb to expect someone to say "it's sinful to have sex in this way, but if you're going to do so, here are some tips."

@akbogert said:

And wouldn't abstinence preclude a great deal of the rampant spreading of STDs and unwanted or unsupportable pregnancies?

Not as well as education and sex and sex related topics. Abstinence only style education, advocacy has been demonstrated to often actually lead to bigger problems.

@akbogert said:

If the Catholic church does not condone extramarital sex, then it really has no need to be changing its policies to deal with problems which come as a result of ignoring that policy.

Good point, but a 'minor' problem is the amount of misinformation that they put out about sex and contraception. If they don't want to condone one thing thats great, but they should at least be aware of the consequences of misinformation and manipulation of information and knowledge.

@akbogert said:

Not that pregnancy education and family planning and disease awareness and such shouldn't be taught about, of course.

Agreed!

Is it true that the Cardinal who gets the highest score in Dig Dug wins the right to be Pope?

@Necrotic_Lycanthrope said:

@lykopis said:

What is the problem here?

The Catholic Church has an extraordinary amount of child molesters amongst it ranks but what makes this fact even more disgusting is that as an institution, it has actively suppressed this -- have played switch-em around with priests all the while not preventing these same criminals from being around children --- continuing to sexually assault more children -- new victims.

Don't like it -- too bad. It's the truth -- isn't that what should be promoted and encouraged? It doesn't take much to learn the truth --- it's there and people who cry foul when this is brought up are doing what exactly? What is your point? Are you suggesting that Catholicism has "suffered" enough? That they are discriminated against? This is the fault of the priests and the system in which they have been allowed to get away and continue to engage in this behaviour. I am sure new cases are dropping (with all this exposure) but does that mean past horrors can't be brought out?

If anything -- I was kinda hoping the Canadian cardinal was going to get in there -- if only to push through groups here who have been pushing to get their stories acknowledged.

The choosing of a new pope is the perfect time to have this discussion. The Roman Catholic Church has a lot to answer to -- a lot.

So yes -- -here's to a new Pope. Let's see if he will put a stop to the spread of AIDs and HIV and STDs and pregnancies in underdeveloped countries.

Also -- Africa has the highest numbers of Catholic conversion -- guess all those micro loans and goats and water and food comes with a price --- whether it's stipulated or not.

Unlike dictatorships which actively suppress in attempts to stop behaviors from happening, the Catholic church cannot force anything to happen. At one point they did, to often extremely negative results. But nowadays they're symbolic.

So I'd rather that the damn warlords in Africa quit their children crusades and crimes against humanity and at least try doing something resembling good by allowing aid into impoverished areas to treat and teach sexual diseases and the negativity of unprotected underage sex.

The pope chosen is a good choice. I'd rather not have a Canadian (or North American in general) chosen because of this strife and of liberal bias (there are Catholics in the states that support abortion. Disgusting, but true.)

Plus I'd like to see Communist countries down south deal with a Jesuit. And not the Fidel Castro-type of Jesuit either.

Catholic missionaries teach the "wrongness" and "perversion" of condoms --- Catholic missionaries tell the women the more children -- the better.

Sure -- if the husbands (and wives too) didn't go off and commit adultery -- maybe things would work without the condoms. Maybe if those same women weren't raped by their husbands who just had sex with prostitutes, they wouldn't need condoms.

This isn't about unprotected underage sex. This is about married people getting STD's. Women getting pregnant, year after year and dying, year after year during childbirth, leaving behind orphans because the father has run off -- and yes, in reverse as well.

This is about women who are forced by their husbands to prostitute themselves to make money to feed their children (not even forced sometimes) and condoms STILL prohibited by their faith. Of course --- they shouldn't be whoring themselves out --- of course there should be no adultery -- of course there should be no rape. But it's there and a little bit of rubber means the difference between life and death.

A Catholic Cardinal is the same no matter where they are from --- how does being from North America change that? My comment about Canada was so that more focus and attention can be put on the victims who have been sexually molested by Catholic priests. The cardinal here wouldn't do anything to help --- far from.

And there are a lot --- a lot of Catholics who are pro-choice. Thank goodness. And a lot who believe in same-sex marriage and pre-marital sex and thankfully --- they know how to use a condom.

What does Communism have to do with anything? South America has had horrific abuses done by the Catholic Church -- Argentina in particular -- most notably during the 1970's had the Catholic Church be part of and active in many atrocities in regards to revolutionaries. Interesting how the Vatican went with a pontiff who heads a country in which under 90% identify with being Catholic yet only 20% actually practice the faith.

Anyway -- celebrations are fine. No idea what this new Pope will do outside of following through with whatever the Church comes up with. True charity comes without conditions and those charities in Africa don't fit the bill.

@SC: Haha. I can't even tell if you actually disagreed with me on anything. To be fair, while I think the church often treats sex in too taboo a fashion, I also think parents and/or schools bear the real responsibility for sex education, not the church. When you get to a more theocratic situation, where the schools are being run by the church, then obviously that distinction becomes irrelevant.

Among the churched, outside the confines of marriage, abstinence-only advocacy only leads to problems when it is ignored; blaming it for the problem is akin to blaming condom-use education for leading to problems because people who've been told to still refuse to use them. However if the church is going to insist that sex not be discussed as an option outside of marriage, it should also ensure that prior to marriage couples-to-be have been properly educated on what they're about to get themselves into. And again, that has no bearing on what secular education ought to be doing.

If anything, I'd note that the sexual ignorance in underdeveloped countries stems more from overall undereducation than specifically intentionally bad sex education (though it sounds like there may be some specific cases where that is not true). I spent two weeks doing medical outreach in Kenya a few years back and our audience was so primitive in its basic understandings of sickness and cleanliness -- just basic concepts of germs spreading and cleaning injuries and such -- that the fact that they did not understand concepts like STDs was hardly surprising (though we did focus on HIV/AIDS as part of our outreach).

Anyhow, yeah, I don't even know that we actually disagreed there, haha. And if authorities entrusted with educating people are knowingly, intentionally teaching them lies, then yeah, that's despicable and should absolutely not be tolerated in any way.

New pope - so what? Still an guy who follows a fictional character. What an idiot!

... Wait, never mind.

@TheSecondOpinion: lol

If by "liberal thinkers" you include me,well um I never disregarded the fact that pedophilia can be committed by anyone but that's not really the point the fact is the church covered it up and there are many,many cases of it in the catholic church.

And you also listed atheism as something to be practiced by saying "atheist practitioner" But there is nothing to practice when you're an atheist so that definition is inaccurate.

Oh and I am not a liberal in the political sense since I don't subscribe to any political ideology but if by liberal you mean:

Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.

Then yes I am liberal in that sense.You seem to be using it as an insult when it really isn't.

@akbogert said:

One thing which does tend to confuse me about the condom point (not that I know enough about this specific situation to be trying to defend it, just noting something):

I'm not Catholic, so I'm not positive, but isn't the hardline stance abstinence outside of marriage? And wouldn't abstinence preclude a great deal of the rampant spreading of STDs and unwanted or unsupportable pregnancies? If the Catholic church does not condone extramarital sex, then it really has no need to be changing its policies to deal with problems which come as a result of ignoring that policy. I'm not going to try to discuss the ethics or the medical questions of the policies within marriage (because sure, there is still a lot of complicated stuff going on there), but unless someone has statistics which show otherwise, I'm going to guess that a lot of those rampant problems stem from already ignoring Catholic rules (in which case, if you're going to have the sex you're not supposed to, why not also use the condom you're not supposed to?).

It just doesn't seem to me to be the church's job to teach its followers the best way to disobey the church's own rules. Not that pregnancy education and family planning and disease awareness and such shouldn't be taught about, of course. Just that it's a little dumb to expect someone to say "it's sinful to have sex in this way, but if you're going to do so, here are some tips."

Marriage in the Catholic context is to have children. Many, many children. Any kind of contraception is frowned on and a perversion of God's will.

I don't think a female who gives birth every year is capable of feeding all those mouths in most African economies.

@TheSecondOpinion:

The Roman Catholic Church protects and continues to protect child molesters. Any one else who does is horrific as well. Thank you for pointing out how prevalent child molestation is in the context of religion.

(Psst --- atheism isn't a religion, but whatever).

@lykopis said:

What is the problem here?

The Catholic Church has an extraordinary amount of child molesters amongst it ranks but what makes this fact even more disgusting is that as an institution, it has actively suppressed this -- have played switch-em around with priests all the while not preventing these same criminals from being around children --- continuing to sexually assault more children -- new victims.

Don't like it -- too bad. It's the truth -- isn't that what should be promoted and encouraged? It doesn't take much to learn the truth --- it's there and people who cry foul when this is brought up are doing what exactly? What is your point? Are you suggesting that Catholicism has "suffered" enough? That they are discriminated against? This is the fault of the priests and the system in which they have been allowed to get away and continue to engage in this behaviour. I am sure new cases are dropping (with all this exposure) but does that mean past horrors can't be brought out?

If anything -- I was kinda hoping the Canadian cardinal was going to get in there -- if only to push through groups here who have been pushing to get their stories acknowledged.

The choosing of a new pope is the perfect time to have this discussion. The Roman Catholic Church has a lot to answer to -- a lot.

So yes -- -here's to a new Pope. Let's see if he will put a stop to the spread of AIDs and HIV and STDs and pregnancies in underdeveloped countries.

Also -- Africa has the highest numbers of Catholic conversion -- guess all those micro loans and goats and water and food comes with a price --- whether it's stipulated or not.

Great post.

And I just thought Id bring it up early since it was bound to be brought up anyway.And like you say why shouldn't it? I mean i the pope is a decent person they would attempt to make those sorts of changes so it is relevant to the subject of a new pope.

@lykopis: Well, like I said, "I'm not going to try to discuss the ethics or the medical questions of the policies within marriage (because sure, there is still a lot of complicated stuff going on there)." To the extent that that's what you're disgusted by -- the situation for married people -- then I imagine we're probably on the same page.

And, as I also said...I'm not a Catholic. I think this thread has touched upon some of the reasons for that.

@akbogert said:

@SC: Haha. I can't even tell if you actually disagreed with me on anything. To be fair, while I think the church often treats sex in too taboo a fashion, I also think parents and/or schools bear the real responsibility for sex education, not the church. When you get to a more theocratic situation, where the schools are being run by the church, then obviously that distinction becomes irrelevant.

Among the churched, outside the confines of marriage, abstinence-only advocacy only leads to problems when it is ignored; blaming it for the problem is akin to blaming condom-use education for leading to problems because people who've been told to still refuse to use them. However if the church is going to insist that sex not be discussed as an option outside of marriage, it should also ensure that prior to marriage couples-to-be have been properly educated on what they're about to get themselves into. And again, that has no bearing on what secular education ought to be doing.

If anything, I'd note that the sexual ignorance in underdeveloped countries stems more from overall undereducation than specifically intentionally bad sex education (though it sounds like there may be some specific cases where that is not true). I spent two weeks doing medical outreach in Kenya a few years back and our audience was so primitive in its basic understandings of sickness and cleanliness -- just basic concepts of germs spreading and cleaning injuries and such -- that the fact that they did not understand concepts like STDs was hardly surprising (though we did focus on HIV/AIDS as part of our outreach).

Anyhow, yeah, I don't even know that we actually disagreed there, haha. And if authorities entrusted with educating people are knowingly, intentionally teaching them lies, then yeah, that's despicable and should absolutely not be tolerated in any way.

I didn't disagree just sort of expanded upon. I agree with you as far as parents but only if the parents are actually capable of educating in that sense too, in many places in the world, parents simply lack that education and rely on the power and authority that institutions like Churches offer and insist on. Which point you make yourself.

I am saying that even when it is ignored you will get problems with abstinence only. Not the direct problems related with sexual activity obviously, but there are still problems. Depending on various possibly greater problems. It can foster general naivety and ignorance and establish patterns that exist into a persons life even later on when they do actually marry. It can be a great source of guilt and shame as well. Education doesn't have to advocate or encourage. When you have representatives of the Catholic Church telling people that condom companies/factories are often tampered with so condoms actually give aids? To fear monger? If they have honest reasons why they do not wish for their followers to not have sex outside marriage, they should just give them and the reasoning behind them. As opposed to say again, misinformation designed to fear monger. We don't disagree here I believe, but I stress the point. I also then question the credibility of some as far as ability to educate if the priority to educate is not there and undermined by control. Remember good intentions?

I can't see why we can't just throw general lack of education with deliberate misinformation - both are in the category of undesirable. We both want/advocate the same thing as far as empowered people making the best educated choices about themselves and those around them I believe. Its just a tricky slope as far as what is being done versus what has and or should be being done. Cheers for reply!

@akbogert:

I brought up the marriage context to you specifically because of what your post was comprised of. Condom use saves lives - don't get why a little scrap of intestine gets such a bad rap when it saves lives.

Rape. Not a chosen act. Prostitution. Not particularly sought after in terms of career. Condoms would be helpful there.

@SC: Likewise! I admit I've never really heard anything about this situation, particularly as regards the fear-mongering about condom companies and such. It'd be horrifying to me no matter who was doing that, but I'm always doubly disgusted when someone does things like that "in Christ's name." The devil is the father of lies...the very book these people teach outs their own hypocrisy. So thanks for shedding some light on the situation; absolutely, that kind of practice should be railed against.

@lykopis: Indeed, it sounds like we're at complete agreement. If anything, though, if people who claim to believe in Papal authority are engaged in rape and prostitution, then the Vatican has bigger problems than its stance on rubbers. As I said in my first post on the subject, it seems a little ridiculous that people who ignore the Church's position on more egregious things are afraid to violate its stance on protection. If the problem is that they don't even know to violate it -- if they're afraid of condoms for reasons beyond judgment, or they don't even know about them -- then I guess that answers my own question.

@lykopis:

Thank goodness for progressive Catholics? So you like the idea of a Catholic pulling a baby out pre-term from a uterus just because the mom got cold feet or can't bare the thought of having kids (among other reasons I'm too tired to get into a brawl with) , because I'm not cool with it.

You know, I started this thread to celebrate a new pope, regardless if you believe in one or not. I didn't ask for a lecture on how my religion is the worst piece of garbage on the planet, while blatantly ignoring valid points brought up in the above comments on nearly every religion being guilty of the same crimes. Yet it's only Catholics who get blamed.

Liberal tolerance my tailbone.

Oh, and the Communist thing? Yeah, Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, Che Guevera. All those Communist big names, dead and alive, destroyed their regions in ways almost worst than what is happening in Africa. Priests have been signaled out and mass executed by Communist forces in Russia.

Just to show Catholic priests, orthodox and Roman, are sitting ducks instead of the rich Jimmy Buffet's people label them to be, except often times less liberal in thought and practice (which makes them a hated bunch, sex abuse scandals or not.)

http://econc10.bu.edu/economic_systems/NatIdentity/EE/Germany/CHURCH.html

http://www.schwarzreport.org/resources/essays/why-communism-kills

http://www.3saints.com/russchurchhistory.html

Oh, this thread is going to be a thing of beauty.

@InnerVenom123:

Really? It's looking like an ugly stepsister to me.

@Necrotic_Lycanthrope: That's because you're one of the contestants.

Meanwhile I get to watch the bout'a the century.

LYKOPIS VS NECRO_LYCAN!

My only regret is that I can't sell tickets.

@InnerVenom123:

You'll probably be the only one there to watch it anyways. XD All the fight fans save their rants for Robot Combat League and Morgan Freeman's near godliness in Through the Wormhole.

Well after reading this

"Bergoglio has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality specifically that homosexual actions are immoral. He opposes same-sex marriage, and unsuccessfully opposed legislation introduced in 2010 to allow same-sex marriage in Argentina, calling it a "real and dire anthropological throwback." In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." Bergoglio has also stated that adoption by same-sex couples is a "form of discrimination against children."

He just sound like another crackpot.So it doesn't look like anything is going to change was to be expected but still is pretty sad nonetheless.

@mrdecepticonleader:

What did you expect? The church to suddenly become a old version of Berkeley and San Francisco? Nearly all popes have said something similar to this (at least of the ones I've lived through).

I honestly don't agree with the adoption part, but it's his right as the new Holy See to lay down his beliefs and what he interprets the bible to mean in the context of a global religious superpower.

If you want liberal sanctions being approved faster than I can yell chimichanga, go look at the beautiful work being pulled in DC.

@Necrotic_Lycanthrope said:

@mrdecepticonleader:

What did you expect? The church to suddenly become a old version of Berkeley and San Francisco? Nearly all popes have said something similar to this (at least of the ones I've lived through).

I honestly don't agree with the adoption part, but it's his right as the new Holy See to lay down his beliefs and what he interprets the bible to mean in the context of a global religious superpower.

If you want liberal sanctions being approved faster than I can yell chimichanga, go look at the beautiful work being pulled in DC.

As I said it was to be expected.Its just a shame peoples views are that from centuries ago.I mean it would be great to someone with such influence use that position in a positive way instead of recycling the 2000 year old crap that gay people are bad etc over again.

I mean I heard on the news a couple of days ago that church attendee numbers are declining and obviously that is nothing really new considering number have been declining for some time.And I mean its a good thing,and especially when they are preaching horse muck like this.I mean its the modern world religion is getting left behind it cant keep up anymore.And nothing is forever.

It actually should be in the churches best interests to actually reform and reconsider and renew if they want to keep up with the 21st century because views like that which are from centuries ago belong there.

So you agree with everything else he said? wow.

@mrdecepticonleader:

I've said it before, I'm not the go-to person for gay marriage. I don't believe it's immoral to be gay, it's just how people turn out. I could've easily been gay rather than straight and it wouldn't have been an fault of my own.

But I'm not going to destroy my religious beliefs over it. Yes I believe in evolution. Yes I'm tolerant of gays. Doesn't mean I have to give up everything the bible says for the sake of politics.

@Necrotic_Lycanthrope said:

@mrdecepticonleader:

I've said it before, I'm not the go-to person for gay marriage. I don't believe it's immoral to be gay, it's just how people turn out. I could've easily been gay rather than straight and it wouldn't have been an fault of my own.

But I'm not going to destroy my religious beliefs over it. Yes I believe in evolution. Yes I'm tolerant of gays. Doesn't mean I have to give up everything the bible says for the sake of politics.

Well it wouldn't have been a fault at all.

I never said any of that I was mainly critiquing what the pope had said and how that because they feel they need to stick what they believe in and not move on that the church will actually fade away quicker.

Its pretty ironic but its true.

@mrdecepticonleader:

If it was true, the church should have died out in the 60's, along with anything not based in equality and freedom. (i.e. Make Love Not War)

Instead it's bigger than before. The US numbers have shrunk, only for "3rd Worlds" to bulk up in numbers.