Moore is more influential despite aZZZZZZwanks who've never made any $ from MAKING comics b1tching about him, but in terms of how comics have eschewed evolution and instead merely clambered onto the back of pseudo intellectual fashions over the past 15 years, Morrison has been more of a cooler factor.
Morrison is somewhat overrated in my view. He always has lots of great ideas and I appreciate his talent for tying in old comic elements into new stories, but the way he explores these ideas and constructs his narratives are very sloppy. Batman, Incorporated is a great example. Fun ride for the most part, but it ended in a rather bland way with approximately ten million loose ends.
Moore always gives something substantive worth real intellectual consideration, AND it's always an enjoyable and coherent story that doesn't require five lifelong comic book nerds to put their heads together and stitch together theories that make the story make sense.
@jaken7: I love Moore's stuff but having to look at 9 issues drawn by Liefeld is grounds for a full time commitment to an asylum.
Comparing the two,I think Morrison has had more successful runs in terms of longevity (X-Men, JLA, Doom Patrol, Batman), but Moore is overall the more influential writer.
Modern day Moore makes you what happened to the man? Dude lost the golden touch. Black dossier was reviled along with all of the LoEG stuff past volume 2, his crossed beginning was met with mixed reactions , and Neonomicon was just something of the worst order.
Morrison on the other hand is still consistently publishing great works such as Annhiltior and Multiversity, with more on the way.
At his best (From Hell, Swamp Thing, Top Ten, and Watchmen) Moore makes works of art which amaze and astound people, but the dude has a good amount of blemishes on his record which can't be ignored to me.
Morrison hasn't written something I don't love.
Moore in his prime is my second favorite writer who produced some of the best comics ever made but no one will ever touch Morrison's position as the GOAT.
@smash_brawler: It's acclaimed, but it's not "one of his most acclaimed works." C'mon. Watchmen, Swamp Thing, Killing Joke. It's not up there.
And I wasn't making a statement on its quality, I was just refuting the myth that everything Moore does is some kind of thought-provoking piece of intellectual stimuli with relevant and modern social allegories. Some of the stuff he does is totally that, but some of it isn't.
Also...LIEFELD.
Anyways, why is your post count so low? Or are you different from the other SmashBrawler?
@batwatch: Do I need to? I don't agree with what you said, that's how opinions work. Am I supposed to prove that you actually don't think Morrison's narratives are sloppy and that Batman Inc. ended with 10 Million loose threads? Because I'm pretty sure you DO think that way, considering you just said it.
If you're talking about specifically countering your points, well, you didn't actually provide any. You just stated an opinion, and I stated that I do not share said opinion.
@jake_fury: No, but I do know that Moore wrote it as a play and someone else transferred it into comic book script. (Edit - I rechecked and apparently it was supposed to be a movie that never happened, and it says Alan Moore did actually write it... Ho-hum. I do stand by my statement of it not being incredibly good.) So if you're looking for a masterpiece from Moore you may want to look elsewhere. If you're looking for a good Moore comic if you can get your hands on "Disease of language" you'd be pleased.
@smash_brawler: It's acclaimed, but it's not "one of his most acclaimed works." C'mon. Watchmen, Swamp Thing, Killing Joke. It's not up there.
I liked it better than Killing Joke ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And I wasn't making a statement on its quality, I was just refuting the myth that everything Moore does is some kind of thought-provoking piece of intellectual stimuli with relevant and modern social allegories. Some of the stuff he does is totally that, but some of it isn't.
Eh, depends on how you read it. It's definitely not as deep as something like Promethea but they're pretty good not-Superman stories. I personally would've picked Neonomicon to illustrate that point but whatever.
Also...LIEFELD.
It's not like he was the main artist of Moore's run...
Anyways, why is your post count so low? Or are you different from the other SmashBrawler?
I left the other account and use this one once in a while since I got a little tired of this site. Ignoring the Off-Topic section and all topics within has been a particularly relaxing experience.
Saying Batman, Incorporated ended with the million loose ends was a literary device I like to call hyperbole. Realistically, it probably ended with about two dozen.
I understand that I gave an opinion and you gave an opinion. However, I pointed out specific criticisms and you just said, "Not really." The fact that we both expressed opinions does not mean we expressed opinions equally well.
If I wasn't specific enough, try this for one of the biggest loose ends. Batman, Incorporared had the flash forward issue to Damian of the future. None of this tied to the rest of the series in any meaningful way, so the entire issue, though fun, added nothing to the Batman, Incorporated story. Equally frustrating, it ended with Damian seeing someone and shouting something along the lines of, "You! You're behind this!" This cliffhanger is never followed up which means this loose end has a loose end.
Other examples of loose ends which never really tie together: Talia is full blown evil whereas she has always before had a compassionate side. Why has she turned full supervillain? No explanation. Azrael is reintroduced. What's his DCNU story? Where has he been? What role will be play in the story? He plays no role other than to give Bruce magic armor. Want anything more? Too bad. Who is this group of femme fatales holding Jason? It is Spyral and the old Batwoman who will show up at the last minute to clean up Batman's mess. How convenient! What will we learn about Spyral and Katherine? Nothing other than that Katherine, the underdeveloped and therefore emotionally vacuumous character, is alive. Why did Spyral capture Jason? No reason! What is the grand plan for the League of Batmen from every nation? How will they aid Bruce in his quest? They will be nearly completely ignored in the last volume of their own series and then disbanded as Bat-Batman in the magic armor solos Talia's Army, and the team for which the entire series is named has no resolution. How does Talia have Man-Bats when the Man-Bat formula is discovered after the beginning of Batman, Inc in the DCNU? Why is David Zavimbe still in the series when he gave up being Batwing before the series concluded?
These are just the problems that immediately leapt to mind a year and half after I read the series. I'm sure there are more.
One or two of these problems are due to DC, but most of them belong at the feet of Morrison. He is a very good comic writer, but he's more big picture than small details, and that is a fault.
If I wasn't specific enough, try this for one of the biggest loose ends. Batman, Incorporared had the flash forward issue to Damian of the future. None of this tied to the rest of the series in any meaningful way, so just the entire issue, though fun, added nothing to the Batman, Incorporated story. Equally frustrating, it ended with Damian seeing someone and shouting something along the lines of, "You! You're behind this!" This cliffhanger is never followed up.
It's a vision of a possible future that was first explored at the beginning of Morrison's Batman run. It may not have tied into Batman Incorporated, but it was a story that Morrison had told throughout his run (which Incorporated is just the end step of), so it didn't feel inappropriate, and I appreciated the follow-through.
That future is further explored in Damian, Son of Batman by Damian's co-creator, Andy Kubert. It's mostly rubbish though.
But regardless, that hellish future was an underlying theme throughout Morrison's whole run. It isn't like it was treated as an Elseworlds completely separate from the events of the run.
Azrael is reintroduced. What's his DCNU story? Where has he been? What role will be play in the story? He plays no role other than to give Bruce magic armor.
Batman Incorporated originally took place fully within Pre-Flashpoint continuity. It was the endcap of a Batman run that had been going on since 2006, before the New 52 was even conceptualized. It's not Morrison's job to reintroduce Azrael into a universe in which he hadn't planned on his story taking place in. If you recall, this incarnation of Azrael (Michael Washington Lane) was created by Grant Morrison earlier on in his Batman run. Therefore, all of your questions can be answered by reading those stories, as this is the same version. He's been in seclusion because he feels guilty for his actions as a pawn in Ra's and Dr. Hurt's plans. This is not a loose thread.
Who is this group of femme fatales holding Jason? It's some mystery organization called Spyral and the old Batwoman who will show up at the last minute to clean up Batman's mess and will otherwise play no role and we will learn nothing of significance about the organization or Kate. (Except that her underdeveloped and therefore emotionally detached character is alive)
Spyral is an espionage agency founded by Otto Netz father of Kathy Kane, the old Batwoman. All of these elements were introduced in the original volume of Batman Incorporated, in issue #3. Otto Netz eventually would become Doctor Daedalus, and was broken out of prison by Talia's Leviathan organization, where he became an invaluable asset. Again, this, as well as the reintroduction of Kathy Kane, is all from the original volume of Batman Incorporated. Your complaint here is invalid.
And it's not just femme fatales. The Hood has been a double agent loyal to Spyral throughout all of Batman Inc. And the first time we see these "femme fatales" in their skull masks, and when we're introduced to Kathy Kane as a headmistress, is in issues #9 and #10 of the first volume of Batman Inc. (aka Leviathan Strikes one-shot).
What is the grand plan for the League of Batmen from every nation? How will they aid Bruce in his quest?
Your name is "Batwatch," and you run a Batman blog. I'd think you'd know what the point of Batman is (to make sure no kid ever feels the way Bruce did, etc.). And that's the plan of Inc from the very beginning. To have a Batman presence all over the world. It's as simple as that.
Oh, they will be nearly completely ignored in the last volume of their own series and then disbanded as Bat-Batman in the magic armor solos Talia's Army, and the team for which the series is named has no resolution.
*sigh* Sure, man. If cynicism is your number 1 go-to for interpreting the end of Morrison's Batman run, who am I to argue?
I saw plenty of Batman Inc. members throughout nearly every issue of Batman Incorporated, especially leading up to its conclusion. But whatever.
It isn't like the Dead Heroes Club was formed from the ashes of Batman Incorporated or anything...
How does Talia have Man-Bats when the Man-Bat formula is discovered after the beginning of Batman, Inc the DCNU?
A) Because editorial.
B) Because Man-Bat assassins under Talia's command were literally in the second issue of Morrison's run on Batman back in 2006. This is a continuation of that story.
Why is David Zavimbe still in the series when he gave up being Batwing before the series concluded?
Do you even read comics? Because in comic universes, time is not linearly dependent on a real-life publishing schedule. David Zavimbe retired at the beginning of Batwing #19, so clearly that takes place after Batman Incorporated.
One or two of these problems are due to DC, but most of them belong at the feet of Morrison. He is a very good comic writer, but he's more big picture than small details, and that is a fault.
"It's a vision of a possible future that was first explored at the beginning of Morrison's Batman run. It may not have tied into Batman Incorporated, but it was a story that Morrison had told throughout his run (which Incorporated is just the end step of), so it didn't feel inappropriate, and I appreciated the follow-through.
"That future is further explored in Damian, Son of Batman by Damian's co-creator, Andy Kubert. It's mostly rubbish though.
"But regardless, that hellish future was an underlying theme throughout Morrison's whole run. It isn't like it was treated as an Elseworlds completely separate from the events of the run."
I understand all of this, but nothing you said negates the fact that this is a huge loose end that served no role in Batman, Incorporated. The fact that "hellish future" is a theme doesn't justify this story being included in Batman, Incorporated anymore than it would justify a Batman/1984 Elseworld's story in the middle of Batman, Incorporated. If Morrison were writing an ongoing comic and wanted to plug in these elements to explore later, then this would be acceptable, but the whole idea of Batman, Incorporated is that Morrison is finishing his Batman run. Throwing in a story element that raises more questions than it answers only to have it tie to nothing is sloppy.
"Talia's been a full-blown villain for as far as I can recall. She was responsible for the events of Tower of Babel, FFS.
"It's not like Morrison rewrote her as an emotionless sociopath. Even in her most vindictive and destructive moments, she showed remorse and empathy."
I've not read Tower of Babel. Maybe there she is unapologetically evil, but in every incarnation I've ever seen of her, (except Batman, Incorporated) she has had respect and affection for Batman and tries to avoid killing him. In this story, she intentionally tries to cause him as much pain as possible. She also always looks out for Damian, yet here, she puts his life in constant danger. I'm a little fuzzy on my recollection of the story on this point, but didn't she, Leviathan, put out a hit on Damian. The depth of her ferocity towards Bruce and Damian are never explained other than, "I'm mad at you," which is the same level of writing brilliance we saw from Amazing Spider-Man 2.
"Batman Incorporated originally took place fully within Pre-Flashpoint continuity. It was the endcap of a Batman run that had been going on since 2006, before the New 52 was even conceptualized. It's not Morrison's job to reintroduce Azrael into a universe in which he hadn't planned on his story taking place in. If you recall, this incarnation of Azrael (Michael Washington Lane) was created by Grant Morrison earlier on in his Batman run. Therefore, all of your questions can be answered by reading those stories, as this is the same version. He's been in seclusion because he feels guilty for his actions as a pawn in Ra's and Dr. Hurt's plans. This is not a loose thread."
Fair points. I still think throwing him in just to hand off the Suit of Sorrows is pretty convenient and underwhelming, and I would have had a lot more respect for Morrison if he had done something substantive with the character as his final sendoff to Azrael, but I see what you are saying.
"Because Spyral was taking the fight to Talia, and she couldn't let Jason compromise their advantage."
Why would Jason have harmed Spyral's operation against Leviathan?
"Spyral is an espionage agency founded by Otto Netz father of Kathy Kane, the old Batwoman. All of these elements were introduced in the original volume of Batman Incorporated, in issue #3. Otto Netz eventually would become Doctor Daedalus, and was broken out of prison by Talia's Leviathan organization, where he became an invaluable asset. Again, this, as well as the reintroduction of Kathy Kane, is all from the original volume of Batman Incorporated. Your complaint here is invalid."
I know Spyral and Kathy were introduced in the first volume of Batman, Incorporated. I don't recall them giving much information about how Spyral worked orhow Batwoman became involved with them. Perhaps it was there, but if not, then these are the sorts of unanswered questions that annoy me.
"And it's not just femme fatales. The Hood has been a double agent loyal to Spyral throughout all of Batman Inc. And the first time we see these "femme fatales" in their skull masks, and when we're introduced to Kathy Kane as a headmistress, is in issues #9 and #10 of the first volume of Batman Inc. (aka Leviathan Strikes one-shot)."
Using the phrase "femme fatales" was a passing remark. It wasn't trying to give the official and most technical description of the Spyral group.
"Your name is "Batwatch," and you run a Batman blog. I'd think you'd know what the point of Batman is (to make sure no kid ever feels the way Bruce did, etc.). And that's the plan of Inc from the very beginning. To have a Batman presence all over the world. It's as simple as that."
Duh. I meant what important role does Batman, Incorporated play in the story. Morrison thought up this really cool idea of Batman, Incorporated, so what is his big plan for how Batman, Inc. will change the world and help Batman, and the answer is...cannon fodder. They serve as cannon fodder to the story. The first volume did a great job of building the team, but when push comes to shove, it's not a team book in any way. There is no character development for the team. There is no arc for the team. In the end, it's Batman that makes the difference not the team. In the conclusion, the team just fights minions while Batman does everything of significance.
You know how everyone complains that the original X-Men trilogy is really the Wolverine trilogy? Well, it's like that with Batman in Batman, Inc. only worse because the X-Men in the first three movies actually have much more character development, weightier actions and more "screen time" than the members of Batman, Inc. What was billed and built up as a new and interesting team book became just another, "Batman Pwns Everyone!" slugfest.
"*sigh* Sure, man. If cynicism is your number 1 go-to for interpreting the end of Morrison's Batman run, who am I to argue?
"I saw plenty of Batman Inc. members throughout nearly every issue of Batman Incorporated, especially leading up to its conclusion. But whatever."
Cynicism is usually my go-to for everything.
I saw plenty of members of Batman, Inc. punching Man-Bats too in several panels per issue while Batman did everything (90%) of the things that actually mattered to the story. If the Avengers movie were structured off the same template, no character except Iron Man would have a character arc past the first act, we would see about two minutes of the Avengers fighting the Chitari, and we'd see twenty minutes of Iron Man facing off with Loki. Then, Iron Man would say the team that supposedly lead to victory was bad so they should disband. This would be a bad structure for an Avengers movie and it is a bad structure for Batman, Incorporated, or at least a very flawed structure.
"It isn't like the Dead Heroes Club was formed from the ashes of Batman Incorporated or anything..."
You seem to be suggesting that Dead Heroes Club became something of significance in the hands of Morrison after Batman, Incorporated. What did I miss?
"A) Because editorial.
"B) Because Man-Bat assassins under Talia's command were literally in the second issue of Morrison's run on Batman back in 2006. This is a continuation of that story."
Yeah, I don't really fault Morrison for that one. It would have been nice if he had addressed it, but its much more DC's blame.
"Do you even read comics? Because in comic universes, time is not linearly dependent on a real-life publishing schedule. David Zavimbe retired at the beginning of Batwing #19, so clearly that takes place after Batman Incorporated."
I'm a continuity junkie. I'll admit it's nitpicking.
"It's a vision of a possible future that was first explored at the beginning of Morrison's Batman run. It may not have tied into Batman Incorporated, but it was a story that Morrison had told throughout his run (which Incorporated is just the end step of), so it didn't feel inappropriate, and I appreciated the follow-through.
"That future is further explored in Damian, Son of Batman by Damian's co-creator, Andy Kubert. It's mostly rubbish though.
"But regardless, that hellish future was an underlying theme throughout Morrison's whole run. It isn't like it was treated as an Elseworlds completely separate from the events of the run."
I understand all of this, but nothing you said negates the fact that this is a huge loose end that served no role in Batman, Incorporated. The fact that "hellish future" is a theme doesn't justify this story being included in Batman, Incorporated anymore than it would justify a Batman/1984 Elseworld's story in the middle of Batman, Incorporated. If Morrison were writing an ongoing comic and wanted to plug in these elements to explore later, then this would be acceptable, but the whole idea of Batman, Incorporated is that Morrison is finishing his Batman run. Throwing in a story element that raises more questions than it answers only to have it tie to nothing is sloppy.
He didn't "throw it in" smack dab in the middle of Incorporated though. It was introduced 11 issues into his run, back in 2007.
He had already plugged these elements in, and what you're complaining about is him exploring them later. Just like you said.
"Because Spyral was taking the fight to Talia, and she couldn't let Jason compromise their advantage."
Why would Jason have harmed Spyral's operation against Leviathan?
Because Spyral planned to work with Batman and his crusade against Talia, but Jason was bugged by Talia. As it says in the panel. They pulled the bug out of his tooth, explained the situation, helped Batman Inc. fight Talia's forces, etc.
"Your name is "Batwatch," and you run a Batman blog. I'd think you'd know what the point of Batman is (to make sure no kid ever feels the way Bruce did, etc.). And that's the plan of Inc from the very beginning. To have a Batman presence all over the world. It's as simple as that."
Duh. I meant what important role does Batman, Incorporated play in the story. Morrison thought up this really cool idea of Batman, Incorporated, so what is his big plan for how Batman, Inc. will change the world and help Batman, and the answer is...cannon fodder. They serve as cannon fodder to the story. The first volume did a great job of building the team, but when push comes to shove, it's not a team book in any way. There is no character development for the team. There is no arc for the team. In the end, it's Batman that makes the difference not the team. In the conclusion, the team just fights minions while Batman does everything of significance.
You know how everyone complains that the original X-Men trilogy is really the Wolverine trilogy? Well, it's like that with Batman in Batman, Inc. only worse because the X-Men in the first three movies actually have much more character development, weightier actions and more "screen time" than the members of Batman, Inc. What was billed and built up as a new and interesting team book became just another, "Batman Pwns Everyone!" slugfest.
"*sigh* Sure, man. If cynicism is your number 1 go-to for interpreting the end of Morrison's Batman run, who am I to argue?
"I saw plenty of Batman Inc. members throughout nearly every issue of Batman Incorporated, especially leading up to its conclusion. But whatever."
Cynicism is usually my go-to for everything.
I saw plenty of members of Batman, Inc. punching Man-Bats too in several panels per issue while Batman did everything (90%) of the things that actually mattered to the story. If the Avengers movie were structured off the same template, no character except Iron Man would have a character arc past the first act, we would see about two minutes of the Avengers fighting the Chitari, and we'd see twenty minutes of Iron Man facing off with Loki. Then, Iron Man would say the team that supposedly lead to victory was bad so they should disband. This would be a bad structure for an Avengers movie and it is a bad structure for Batman, Incorporated, or at least a very flawed structure.
But they're not the same thing, so why fault it for not having the same structure? The difference between the X-Men or Avengers and Batman Incorporated is the former are actual teams. First and foremost, it's Batman Incorporated. It is an organization that acts as an extension of Batman. Of course he's the focus.
And honestly, I just plain disagree with your assessment of how much (or in your case how little) the group developed, and how prevalent they were to the story. I honestly think Incorporated deserves another read from you.
And in any case, these aren't loose threads. They are problems you have with the story, but what we were discussing was how Morrison allegedly leaves too many plot-points open, or that he seemingly doesn't explain enough.
Are people really arguing over something that is subjective? smh...
No. Where do you see that happening?
And also, what else is there to argue over other than something that's subjective? Because only in subjectivity do you get opposing viewpoints. There's no use arguing over something that's objective fact.
And also, what else is there to argue over other than something that's subjective? Because only in subjectivity do you get opposing viewpoints. There's no use arguing over something that's objective fact.
Pffftttttt, get the f*ck out of my face with that logic!
And also, what else is there to argue over other than something that's subjective? Because only in subjectivity do you get opposing viewpoints. There's no use arguing over something that's objective fact.
Pffftttttt, get the f*ck out of my face with that logic!
The future Damian story had nothing to so with Batman, Incorporated. It also had a cliffhanger with no resolution. This is a loose thread or perhaps even a whole loose tangle of yarn, and you mentioning that it was established in previous Morrison work in no way diminishes this fact.
Regarding Jason, why not talk to one of the other billion Batman operatives that didn't have bugs on them or pass Jason a note that said, " Hey, you are bugged. Pass this info to Batman." Why not just show up in the Bat Cave and explain things to Bruce herself?
Jason was captured just to add drama and suspense, but that drama and suspense is diminished because it is completely unnecessary.
Creating a team and doing almost nothing with them and giving them no resolution other than "Disbanded," is the ultimate loose thread. The book was a team book. I don't mind Batman getting a larger share of the focus, but I do mind him getting almost all the focus. I don't mind Batman getting most of the focus in Batman and the Outsiders, but if the series had him being the only meaningful member, it would be annoying. Other than Squire becoming Knight, what character arcs did any Batman, Inc. characters have in the last volume? What significant accomplishments did any of them have?
@batwatch: It had everything to do with Morrison's run though, so I'm not personally bothered that his second story with that world and that character took place in a book titled Batman Incorporated, when Batman Incorporated was the finale of his run.
You're not understanding. Jason was in the Batcave. He'd finally been invited back, and he'd been hanging out with Batman Incorporated a lot. Behind closed doors. That sort of thing. They needed to de-bug him so they could stop the information leak to Talia.
As for why Kathy Kane didn't just go to Batman, I'd say it was because she didn't want to reveal herself. Batman thought she was dead. She never stepped out of the shadows until the very end, where she used that surprise factor to assassinate Talia before she could be stopped by any Bat-characters that follow a strict no killing rule.
I saw plenty of development from El Gaucho, Dark Ranger, Knight and Squire, and ESPECIALLY Batman of Japan. And it never seemed to me that they weren't doing something important whenever they showed up. They were always protecting their lands, fighting Leviathan's agents, foiling their plans, etc. I think you're just too caught up on that last arc, as that's the one that's most fresh in your mind. And in that last arc, even though the overall outcome was decided by Batman (as it should), he couldn't have done it without Inc. Gotham was overrun. There was plenty of teamwork to be had, and Knight even sacrificed himself for the cause.
@batwatch: It had everything to do with Morrison's run though, so I'm not personally bothered that his second story with that world and that character took place in a book titled Batman Incorporated, when Batman Incorporated was the finale of his run.
You're not understanding. Jason was in the Batcave. He'd finally been invited back, and he'd been hanging out with Batman Incorporated a lot. Behind closed doors. That sort of thing. They needed to de-bug him so they could stop the information leak to Talia.
As for why Kathy Kane didn't just go to Batman, I'd say it was because she didn't want to reveal herself. Batman thought she was dead. She never stepped out of the shadows until the very end, where she used that surprise factor to assassinate Talia before she could be stopped by any Bat-characters that follow a strict no killing rule.
I saw plenty of development from El Gaucho, Dark Ranger, Knight and Squire, and ESPECIALLY Batman of Japan. And it never seemed to me that they weren't doing something important whenever they showed up. They were always protecting their lands, fighting Leviathan's agents, foiling their plans, etc. I think you're just too caught up on that last arc, as that's the one that's most fresh in your mind. And in that last arc, even though the overall outcome was decided by Batman (as it should), he couldn't have done it without Inc. Gotham was overrun. There was plenty of teamwork to be had, and Knight even sacrificed himself for the cause.
I'm kind of tired of this discussion, but I'm not blowing you off. You bring up good points, and I do appreciate you sharing your views with me. The Jason debugging makes some sense though there are still easier ways to do things.
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