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@blazinghell: As promised its Saturday and time for me to put up an argument.
Why do people normally believe Thanos beats Superman
Now this is just my answer to something you raised in pm with me and @matchesmalone21 as to why people normally see Thanos beating Superman.
The answer is quite simple, Thanos was created to be more powerful than being on Superman level (i.e. Thor, Surfer etc).
Going all the way back to Avengers Annual # 21 Thanos was created not just to be a villain to Avengers, capable of fighting them together, but the most powerful Avengers villain at the moment (i admit this is no longer than case because Jim Shooter took over another character, Michael Korvac, and changed him into being the most powerful Avengers adversary, thereby dethroning Thanos from his post)
Just to give you a demonstration , Ultron, another massive Avengers adversary, clearly said to be less powerful than Thanos has been shown to be powerful enough to make a mockery out of Avengers powerhouses like Thor and Goliath included (they have the physical stats to match Superman, just dont have the speed)
While i could potentially go into a lot more detail to try and substantiate Thanos being kept as a lot more powerful than guys at this level, i wont coz thats deviating from the purpose of the CaV, but if you are interested let me know, we can do that just as well.
Here however is an additional instance, from Fantastic Four # 569 where throught MOD the same thing was demonstrated. He calls upon group of being to help him fight his future counterpart, near-godlike vs near godlike, and the group he calls is heroes first (Silver Surfer, Hulk , Hercules etc) and gods (Thanos , Galactus and Odin).
Furthermore we know when faced with opponents of this caliber Superman does gets rather casually handled.
Superman vs Helspont where he just stomped Superman demonstrates this.
Or what Darkseid did to him
Now lets try and address the concerns you raised, and do let me know if i missed anything.
The , which is sort of fair enough but there are instances where he has opted for better options while fighting H2H on other occasions.
One that comes to mind is his fight with Beyonder (Kosmos), where while he started h2h with energy projection , he does ends the fight fairly quickly by lobotomizing her .
Or his fight with Fallen One, where he doesnt go h2h at all, but uses his versatility. He wacks a blitzing Fallen One with his TK, into a gas giant, and mind controls him turning him into Thanos herald, and he actually acts as his herald throughout the next story arc that follows, i.e. Annhilation before being killed by 2 beings who power rival Galactus.
This should also help show something you question about Thanos using telepathy normally against telepaths, which of course isnt true. But often when debating about Thanos you will be shown instances where Thanos actually uses telepathy against telepath, not because thats the only thing he does, because being able to TP and genuine telepath would count as a better feat than him TPing the likes of Drax, Fallen One, Ancient Priest, Pip the troll etc.
Another thing you said , which actually isnt true. The instances you posted are from Cosmic Powers story arc, more specifically Cosmic Power Issue # 03, ironically though that was actually prep Thanos after getting counsel from Terrax, and having tracked Jack of Heart. Its one of the instances of forgotten powers, something that tends to plague big villians in both Marvel and DC.
But this is besides the point, if i am not demonstrate Thanos can and has used shield without prep, i will have to show you instance from a series where Thanos wasnt expecting a fight but still ends up using shield when he has to fight unexpetedly.
That brings us to Blood and Thunder story arc.
While i am unsure to whether you have read it or not, and whether you would need details of the story lets just put it out there. Thor jacked up by pseudo-warrior madness, goes berserk and i suppose its most to do with the warrior madness stuffs he starts performing feats much , much higher than what he have seen him do. He takes on Beta Ray Bill, Silver Surfer, Adam Warlock, Drax the Destroyer, Maxam, one after another defeating them soundly. What happens next is, during the course of fighting Drax he ends up with power gem, further making him so powerful than a new giant team of Moondragon, Gamora, Adam Warlock, Silver Surfer, Pip the Troll, Adam Warlock, Maxam, Drax and Dr. Strange are completely helpless against Thor.
Now Pip, who has the space gem, something allows unbound teleportation teleports Thor into Thanos ship, Thanos had no idea he was to face Thor heck face anyone that day.
Alright lets continue, dont know why internet is giving me so much of a grief today but hopefully will flow smoothly from here on.
So Thanos, as un-preppred for the fight as it gets, fight an extremely amped up Thor and uses his shield.
Now there are a LOT of stuffs about Superman speed there that i disagree, or the part that Flash doesnt get tagged at all, or Wonder Woman was either in awe of Superman's speed or Superman was actually doing Wonder Woman with the blade when we know Wonder Woman wasnt looking to harm him at all, they were/ are a couple.
But this is besides the point because i agree Superman is faster than Thanos so its sort of inconsequential for me to try and point out things i disagree there.
What i will however do is take Superman speed advantage as given and argue from there on.
First , brilliant display of speed but like Pyscho Pirate reminded Superman
"You're still bringing your fists to a mind - might"
Its consequential because one telepathic move from Thanos would end it from Superman, and the telepathic move that i wanna demonstrate here is Time-sync-mind wrap, just an exotic version of telepathy than anything.
We know a blitzing Superman can and has been tag by foes nowhere near as fast as Superman or even Thanos, so i dont think its so hard to thing Thanos can at least tag him (definitely less often than other way around).
Or given Thanos has actually tagged blitzing opponent just fine with his TK
Tagging Superman shouldnt be this hard to a guy on this calibur.
Even if we say Superman blitzes Thanos, which i dont disagree Superman can, i would question Superman's ability to actually put Thanos does for the count with a blitz. The instance that comes to mind is Superman blitzing Orion which ends with Orion smiling on his face.
In character i dont see Superman being able to blitz Thanos bad enough to somehow be able to take him down without Thanos being able to do anything, even in his weakest incarnation he could easily tanks hits from Thor and Thing and take both of them down with few blast rather handily, and Thor is every bit as durable as Superman.
Is it really that hard to thing Thanos could tag him well, at least long enough to have him on the ground for him to initate his TP. I can show you about 10 instances of Thanos using TP if you wanna see if its done often enough.
Its not like Thanos is lacking on AOE attack either, if its harder to tag superman with a direct attack.
Here's an instance from Marvel Two In One Annual # 2, a lot before Thanso was resurrected and made a lot more powerful by Lady Death, where a simple AOE attack knocks out Adam Warlock.
Here's another one from Thanos Imperative # 2 that destroyed an amalagam of Cancerverse version of Avengers.
Here is another one that blew away the Avengers from Infinity # 6
Just to address the last part, its pretty acceptable for Superman to be tagged and overpower by people singnificantly slower than him , in character, against the scenario given on OP.
Lets look at the instance from Darkseid, he and his armies killed a whole bunch of people just as well, but when Superman attack him what happens? Darkseid is able to catch him and nearly bear hug him into obvilion, thankfully his team pulls through long enough to BFR Darkseid.
PSI Wars shows a very similar story as well, remember for this story, they were controlling the mind of everyone on Earth and were going to turn them into evil, yet Superman was going to rather casually lose against Psycho Pirate and his TP, despite having gone for a blitz to start off with. I honestly dont see it playing any different that this, different in sense Superman isnt going to have a bunch of telepath to save him or Superman not being able to simple depower Thanos by taking away his mask.
Lastly, its nice you put forward the idea that Thanos doesnt know who he is fighting, he wouldnt know what to do what his vulnerabilities are. The same applies to Superman as well, and as Superman # 11 demonstrate, this is what happened to Superman against an un-named foe when he was over-confident.
Also to point out that, the scenarios in the issue in question perfectly matches the scenario in our thread.
"Men, women children."
"I look into every house, every business, every shed throughout town."
"Can't find a single heartbeat either."
"It killed them all."
So it does even under given scenario goes both ways, if anything the normal lax morals of Thanos would give him the advantage anyways.
Also Thanos has quite a bit in him to take Superman down in 1 move, like telepathy and matter manipulation (i will go into detail on this later on, the reply is long enough at the moment as it is). You have to take into account the amount of durability Thanos is packing, his versatility, i dont think its that hard to see why Thanos would win , rather handily, even though Superman blitzes Thanos to begin with or Thanos starts underestimate Superman.
@blazinghell: Few things first
1. Tag me when you reply
2. Try and cut down on personal attacks like:
3. Taking scans out of context =/= showing you the scan and taking word by word from panel or putting scan in proper "context" involved you taking on panel and making your own story to go with it, without anything of the sort being substantiated on panel.
And most importantlybecause at the moment i am debating on a tournament and frankly its much better there as people dont needlessly rely on personal attack, or accuse me of taking stuffs out of context then come up with one panel and make their own story backed by nothing but their own head canon.
4. And if you are going to continue on personal attack, lets dissolve the CAV or gets voters in right away, i dont have to sit here and take personal attack from you, i have nothing to prove to you, i just assumed you would be respectful based on how you talked on PM.
1. You are putting Thanos much higher than his kin
That is not true, your are coming up with your own interpretation of what was said as opposed to what i actually said and showed you the scans of.
"thanos was created to be more powerful than being on Superman level (i.e. Thor, Surfer etc)." <- that is what i said
I never said anything about being just as powerful as Odin , let alone Galactus.
But then you started making your own assumption.
You claim the scan is invalid because you dont like it, and go into straw man stuffs like on Thanos isnt on the same level as Galactus and Odin, lets repost the scan again.
2 teams were brought foward 1 heroes and 2 a more powerful team of gods.
Team heroes there consists people from: Spiderman, Captain America, Hulk and Silver Surfer so it wasnt meant to be homogeneous group to begin with.
Paying a bit more attention to the scan or what has been said would have easily avoid the whole bunch of un-necessary scan dump
2. Problem with Generalization: Helspont is similar to Thanos, Superman beat Thanos
This would be entirely correct if Superman had actually beat Helspont, its not what happened, nor was it ever anywhere stated that Helspont making his own atmosphere did anything to de-power Superman.
Lets get into the details.
Superman starts contemplating if Helspont was holding back when they first met or if he was testing, which is exactly what happened.
"Was he holding back before?"
"If our first encounter was just some kind of test, then--"
Notice how the earlier fight is even referenced with actually issue number there on panel.
I dont like making my own story and assuming people will agree with me, i am just going take word as clearly stated on panel.
Then Helspont says he created his own enviroment (
Superman gets one shotted of course.
Then Superman finally, at the end of the issue come to a realization that he is nothing compared to Helspont.
"I mean nothing to him."
"What good has it been is someone so much more powerful that I am can just come and take it all away"
So yeah its out there clearly for you to see.
Helspont was holding back and merely testing him, when he actually fought back Superman got one shotted, and himself outright realized that Helspont is so much more powerful.
So , what was your excuse here again?
Not sure why you even thought of posting Superman attacking Helspont with his heat vision as if it actually did anything to Helspont.
So , while your disagreement of it is noted, the argument entirely stands.
3. Darkseid is so much more powerful thank Thanos
I disagree and regardless of what you cant come up with 1 single feat to put him above Thanos. Yeah he killed nameless old gods that have done ziltch and destroyed a planet, Thanos has destroyed a planet as a side effect of his fight with Drax, he has killed entire planet coz he was bored, he has stood up against Odin etc. etc.
So thats totally irrelevant for the battle, unless you want to come up with a feat from Darkseid that exceeds that of Thanos, you are most welcome to try.
4. Superman wasnt tagged because he was over-confident against the Un-named enemy in Superman # 11 you took it out of context AGAIN
Thats pretty much what you told me which is good and all, and you filled the reply with scans and crops that werent even relevant, but yeah i can counter that rather easily with revelant scans though.
First Superman himself says he got hit because he was over-confident
We are ignoring something stated expressly on panel now?
He re-iterates the same thing much later
"I underestimated your the first time"
And again , the scenario of the issue is identical to what we have in the OP, written entirely by you, so yeah that is something that might actually happen against Thanos.
5. Thanos vs Eros shows Thanos is too slow for Superman
Something i have never disagreed with, but there are few problem one, Thanos eventually got a hold of Eros and defeated him soundly, which is pretty much what i am saying will happen to Superman (and given Superman has conveniently under-estimated his opponent on exact identical scenarios).
Second is this is actually not Thanos, but was later retconned into being Thanosi, a weaker incomplete clones of Thanos, during Infinity Abyss # 3 and futher backed in Marvel Handbook 2006.
And i would suggest you stop posting un-necessary scan and most importantly your own story to go with a panel of your choosing.
6. As demonstrated against Gamora and a clone of Thanos against Ego (who himself is lightspeedster BTW) Thanos cant conceivable tag Superman.
Apart from instance i have been shown from the very first reply that Superman does get tag because of him morals contrives, or how Thanos has massive AREA of EFFECT attack to tag Superman if direct attack wasnt a viable means, i could also demonstrate Thanos actually tagging fast opponent in fight just fine (based on same stuffs, you simply presumed Darkseid is good bit faster than Thanos, another assertion i dont agree at all).
Jack of Heart tries to attack Thanos, get swatted away and pwned.
Ganyemade tries to blitz Thanos and gets back handed
While Jack of Heart isnt anywhere close to as fast as Superman , Ganyemade is a different case.
she was blitzing Terrax
Blitzed by Silver Surfer here, who is just as fast as Superman if not faster
And blitzing Silver Surfer again.
She is the only person in 616 reality, apart from Runner, who has blown Silver Surfer speed in a combat scenario like this.
But you wanna assume Thanos reaction abilities based entirely on his fight, which he intentionally faked as losing against his adopted daughter or from a clone who actually won the fight rather comprehensively and then pretend this is something that happens to Thanos in a regular basis (an assumption which is untrue, there is one more instance with Captain Marvel which ends the same with Thanos pwning him and then with Runner with space gem).
Even then i outright admit Thanos is slower than Superman and my argument mirror around:
1. Thanos being able to react to Superman as he does tend to react to pretty fast opponent
2. Morals contrive holding Superman back as this is an in character debate
7. Why do you keep latching on to OP
Because thats what people DO.
You create a challenge a viner thread, claim both character are in character and conveniently put in a scenario, the rules would state i have to follow it.
Also it you entirely you who made the scenario, you never consulted me , nor did i have anything to add to it.
If you dislike me referring to scenario, created by you, in the OP, too bad, cant help you.
8. Martian Manhunter is a better telepath than Thanos but Zod flattened him, what chance does Thanos have
This would be nice and all but no where in Superman / Wonder Woman # 3 does Martian Manhunter tries to TP Zod. He tries to seal him by heating up sands to form glass, Zod break the glass and attacks the then distracted Martian temporarily knocking him out (although he gets back up in 2 pages)
If we are going to ignore the fact that Martian Manhunter never tried to use TP, and make our own generalized instance that need i remind you Thanos defeated Silver Surfer whose physical stats are every bit as impressive as New 52 Superman (except physical strength, but he more than makes it up with his energy attack)
Since you went in detail about Superman speed here is Surfer's speed
Transversing planets and galaxies as he sees fit
Nanosecond reaction time # 1
Nanosecond reaction time # 2
Microsecond + reaction time
Superman travelling from Pluto to Earth or Earth to sun in minutes is one thing, Silver Surfer travelling entire light years in seconds is another.
Superman read 10 years worth of book in 5 mins, Silver Surfer scanned entire earth before Dr. Strange could even finish his sentence
I would think a tactic like this is not very reasonable given i cant show you Surfer using his full speed against Thanos, and honestly i know Surfer wasnt using his full speed coz he is significantly faster than Thanos. But if you are going to use Martian Manhunter's TP abilities and then use an instance of Martian Manhunter physically beaten despite never having use the said ability to begin with, then i suppose me doing this is justifiable..
09. PSI War shows Superman vulnerable to TP because the virus was created by Braniac and it was specifically created such that it would affect Superman regardless of his resistance ( and its prove by the fact that Superman could read the clone's mind when he has no TP.
Simply answer, arent you ignoring context when one is specifically explained in the comics.
Superman # 04 Michael and Heather tell face Superman and create a psychic link, evidently one that works both ways, and neither of them had problem reading Superman mind or TP him.
That is why Superman was capable of reading the clone's memories because of the Pyschic link which is what Superman clearly says on panel
"The pyschi link you created is working both ways now, and as you used it to access my memories , i am using it to access yours."
If you wanna claim something, do so by bringing a panel that says that, rather than making your own story and lets try and put unrelated stuffs away and try and make it more concise and easier to read.
I honestly am finding it extremely hard to actually follow your argument because you go on a scan spammage spree , if so at group them.
will reply later in a couple of days, but please be more precise and cut down on personal attacks.
@blazinghell Alright lets get into this, takes quite a while to load this page, shame.
1. Thanos was made to be more powerful than Superman level guys
Its nice you pretended you took it apart by :
1. Trying to show Odin and Galactus are superior to Thanos, when i said nothing of the sort in my argument.
2. By showing Helspont had to create an atmosphere to depower Superman when nothing of that sort happened, i.e. making up your own story.
I could argue round in circle, but i wont, let the voters decide.
What i am however going to point out is Helspont creating an atmosphere to depower Superman is just your own assumption with nothing of the sort even remotely stated on panel.
Lets see. the first panel of Helspont saying he created an environment, which once we stop making our own stories and looking at whats on panel will give a whole different picture.
But before i draw into particular panel i am going to post the entire sequence of pages for others to see.
Now lets draw out attention to panel you posted, where none of which says anything about the environment depowering Superman.
"Yes i create my own atmosphere, so feel free to mewl in pain.
So he literally just says i can create my own atomsphere so you can cry in pain and he will hear Superman.
Which if anything is a nod to the idea that, in space, no on can hear you scream.
Now lets look at other panels.
First a panel you colorfully described as Superman looking akin to fish out of water.
So Superman is contemplating going and meeting Helspont before he stops
The panel isnt showing anguish, its showing confusion, as you can clearly see a panel that shows "???". Three question marks.
Superman flying towards his ship to try and fight Helspont is confused because Helspont appeared right behind him or heck worst perhaps Superman could sense an atmosphere where none should be. Nothing here translates to Helspont atmosphere depowering Superman, thats something you are entirely making it up.
Then you next panel of Superman writhing in pain, its easy, but before i draw my attention to said panel, i am going to upload the same segment of sequences of pages so its easier for people to follow.
Now lets see, first panel where Superman appears in front of Helspont.
so apart from saying he is still shaken after his fight with Biomass, Superman looks just fine.
Second panel with Helspont.
Then Superman looks to be writing in panel, followed by a pretty clear explaination of why that happen, and no nothing there translates to him being weakened by Helspont's atmosphere.
Helspont telepathically makes the Superman feel the pain of 1000s of people he has killed.
"Do you fell their anguish, pain, as i take their lives"
Followed by a huge cry of NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO from Superman.
Yeah nothing there even remotely translates to Superman being weakened by Helspont's atomsphere. You wanna keep saying so, do so all you want, i will let the voters decide.
I don’t see why Superman wouldn’t be able to do the same with his heat vision when he can crank it up to the temperature of the surface of the sun. Superman could just as well turn him to ash.
Given how much you underestimate Thanos i wouldnt really be surprised you think so, but the matter of fact is, Superman hits him with heat vision, Thanos is simply going to ask him to do it again.
Thanos vs Thor's lightning.
And before you say, oh Superman heat vision can turn as hot as the surface of the sun, i will have you know that lightning are 5 times hotter than Sun's surface
In case you missed it.
Thanos's own attack on the other hand are far more potent but we will get into that , later (in the same post).
Superman vs Un-named Enemy
1 word: way to miss the point.
What i was pointing out from Superman # 11 was completely different from what you are going on and on about.
Lets post the whole instance first, before i start picking one panel at a time, so as not to mislead people who are reading it.
So Superman goes into an area, where an un-known enemy has killed everyone. What Superman however does is , being over-confident in his ability doesnt take proper precaution and gets tagged there.
Which was the whole bloody point, given its a random encounter, and because you brought up why would Thanos use TP right off the bat against Superman, my argument was same goes for Superman too.
Given a scenario which exactly correlates to instance at hand, Superman might get tagged because he is over-confident.
Which is exactly what i said, and substantiated by Superman himself saying the only reason he was hit was because he was over-confident.
First Superman himself says he got hit because he was over-confident
We are ignoring something stated expressly on panel now?
He re-iterates the same thing much later
"I underestimated your the first time"
so if you dont believe what Superman said right on panel and go posting stuffs about thing i never said and accuse me of not reading .. good for you..
Thats all i can say.
PSI War virus tailer made for Superman
I have read through that twice, and read the comics just as well, i still cant get what you are trying to say. What part of the virus being tailored by Braniac, or it being created to affect people in metropolis, has any correlation to ti having free reign on Superman's mind, or that Thanos TP wont work like the TP granted by PSI virus?
I dont get your point, i am asking you to explain it to me, not by what you are doing, only put panels that the virus somehow bypassess Superman natural defense..
TP his Thanos's only saving grace
No its not, if anything Speed is Superman;s only saving grace.
Thanos is slower than Superman but instance you are looking at to suggest Thanos is slow have 2 problems:
1. Gamora instance is missing context.
During Warlock and the Infinity Watch # 6 - # 13 (the instance of the fight is from # 8) Gamora was having nightmares about Maxam killing Adam Warlock which is something that really worried Gamora, as she was in love with Adam then.
Thanos started the whole fight because he wanted to distract Gamora, his adopted daughter, whom at the time he began to care about, after all he was trying to be a hero and a member of Infinity Watch back then.
Just to make sure you dont get confused, the next scan i am posting is not from this issue, its comes 30 odd issues either, just to try and show you Thanos actually cares about Gamora, when she was alone contemplating no one understands her and that she is so out of place, Thanos is the one who comes to her for comfort.
So do you really think given the scenario Thanos doing anything other than allowing Gamora to dodge him and pretending he couldnt tag her or pretending to lose against her (something which he does, you posted the scan so i am not posting it again), would achieve anything. Could actually killing Gamora solve Thanos trying to cheer her up?
Once you evaluate the issue given the circumstance, specially considering, Gamora before Thanos tries to reform himself, actually tried to stop him which ended with Thanos killing Gamora, the interpretation should look a bit different , no?
2. Scan with Eros.
While i would normally have no problem with Thanos being slower than Eros, given Eros is actually a speedster, the problem with putting all your chips on that is , the instance was retconned as being a Thanosi, during Infinity Abyss # 1, and if you are one of the few people who go into say , oh how do we know Thanos wasnt lying about it being a clone, well Marvel Handbook 2006, substantiates it in detail that it was actually Thanosi, throughout the whole story Avengers: Celestial Quest (the scan you posted, specifically is from Avengers Celestial Quest # 4)
So while i dont disagree Superman is faster than Thanos, instance you posted and obviously the presumption that "this is a commonality for Thanos" are incorrect assumption, scans either involved context or are of Thanos clone, and no being unable to tag someone isnt a commonality to Thanos, has never been.
How can Thanos defeat Superman, AOE attack, lots and lots of AOE attack.
As our debate page already opens very late thanks to so many giant scans posted, lets not post a lot of scans ( i will post them if you like)
Punishers themselves are very damn durable, we have seen Fantastic Four , alongside Thing unable to harm it (Fantastic Four # 49), Silver Surfer unable to damage it (Fantasic Four # 79), Iron Man and Jack Of Heart failed to harm the punisher and got stomped (Iron Man # 110), Punisher was however partly damaged, nothing akin getting rip thru like shreds by Stark-Super missle (Iron Man # 112), InBetweener fought punisher for a while, didnt manage to damage it but summoned his counterpart to defeat it (Silver Surfer Vol 3 # 17)
The whole point i am trying to make is, his AOE attack are very damn powerful, capable of ripping through punisher.
In another instance, and this is Thanos before his ascention, Thanos killed Warlock with a back hand and a AOE attack.
Or down Classic Drax, who has taken on Thor, Silver Surfer, Hulk (individually not as a group), with a simple blast.
Thing gets completely taken out, while Thing is less durable than Superman a blast that can knock him out so easily will at the very least disorient Superman long enough for Thanos to land a second.
Thanos taking out Thing and Thor, and Thor is every bit as durable as Superman. Thanos gets a hit in, Superman isnt going to be able to just get up, shrug it off and come back for more.
Apart from Punisher instance, all of these are before Thanos ascension, these instances before are after he ascended.
Quasar's dome instance.
So Quasar creates a dome and heroes starts attacking it without being able to so much as dent it, but Thanos blows it apart. Look at the sheer number of power of heroes attacking it: Cyclops , IceMan, Wolverine, Thor, Thing, Hulk, Hercules, Wonder Man, She Hulk, Jean , Colossus, Warpath, Rogue, Sasquatch, Havoc and Vision.
But Thanos just blows it apart with one hand, blowing heroes away.
Lets look at Thanos vs Surfer where Surfer finds him totally overpowered and outclassed.
Or with 2 mere blast reduces Hulk and the entire Cancerverse Avengers into nothing but charred bones.
Given Thanos as AOE attack, and just how powerful his AOE attacks are, Superman isnt going to be able to retaliate once getting hit by an attack. If (Cancerverse), Surfer, Thor, Adam Warlock, Classic Drax, Punishers couldnt why would Superman be any different.
@blazinghell: I will be back a lot sooner, perhaps 1 or 2nd week of Feb. I will be gone again for the whole weak of March , i am flying out again on March 2 at 2am in the morning.
We can move in long once i come back. I am not entire sure why the rush though, what difference does it make if we end the debate in a week, month or year?
@reaverlation: Thanks although not really back just yet. I am still abroad just jumped online coz i was bored. Still dont have a single issue on this computer which makes it virtually impossible to actually make a case on comicvine because people expect evidence.
@blazinghell: Lets continue
Thanos was created to be more powerful than Superman level being
Its still nice that you keep pretending you tore that down by making your own supposedly “implications” of what the scan stated as opposed to seeing what the scan is really saying or pretending how Thanos power is miniscule to Odin and Galactus (I actually have very little problem accepting thats the case with Galactus really, Odin not so much) and totally ignoring something I am trying to tell you again and again is well not very nice but lets see.
Scan spammage is the only way you will see things eye to eye and lets begin, I could do that just as well.
First lets look at scans from 2 series, Blood and Thunder and Thanos: Redemption, two series that you used to put in a very misconstructed view to suggest Thanos's power is miniscule to the 2 beings in question and missing exactly what i am trying to tell you, its not Thanos comparison with Odin that is consequential but rather his comparison with another character, Silver Surfer.
Not only did in the story Thanos hold his own against Thor ridden by madness, who was already taking apart guys like Silver Surfer and Drax with ease, he went toe to toe with Thor after he had power gem when a large group of superheroes were stark helpless against him. And after less than 3 hours of fighting Thor, Thanos moves to Asgard to face Odin.
It was made pretty clearly that should Thanos lose against Thor, rest of them (a huge team consisting of Silver Surfer, Drax, Adam Warlock, Dr. Strange, Gamora, Beta Ray Bill, Maxam etc) would have no chance, so not only did Thanos outperform a massive team in a physical confrontation with Thor he was said to be just as powerful as the team combined.
Thor was then contained in a block of pure force from which he was going to escape in 3 hours.
So less than 3 hours of fighiting an extremely amped up Thor and being warped into madness, they make a way to Asgard. Odin, someone with cosmic sesne sees them come, and seeing a team of Thanos calls them Thanos and his minions. The fact that guys like Silver Surfer, Drax, Dr. Strange, Adam Warlock were called his minions again shows how powerful Thanos is compared to them.
Thanos and Adam Warlock, despite that fact that Dr. Strange has already fallen pose such a great threat that Odin knows Asgardians cant continue and he himself joins in battle , something that only happens when guys like Destroyer Armor or Mangog join that battle, says a lot really. In fact that much is said on panel just as well.
Just to substantiate Dr. Strange, Gamora and Moondragon had already fallen.
Drax gets one shotted by Odin, someone capable ripping the very core of a star, or taking on Surfer with Surfer having no way of harming him gets one shotted.
Then Silver Surfer gets one shotted, whose durability is every bit as impressive as Superman (we will get into Surfer durability later in the same argument)
Yet Thanos tanks the same attack without any damage whatsoever.
If that doesnt show Thanos is significantly more powerful than Silver Surfer , which is what the scan i posted shows, than i dont know what does.
But you can feel free to ignore those and pretend you took it apart by drawing what you think is the implication of the scan and posting Odin being superior to Thanos.
Not to mention Odin himself disagrees on how superior he is to Thanos
Odin himself, who thought it was Thanos and his minions, who practically one shoted both Surfer and Drax without having to break a sweat, finding himself unable to put down Thanos after a good 4 attack himself agrees that he underestimated Thanos.
So yeah the guy who thought beings like Surfer, Drax , Dr. Strange were mere minions of Thanos himself agrees despite that he underestimated Thanos.
Odin then goes on to compare Thanos's power source to himself saying his power source are just as big as his.
Not being able to put down Thanos despite repeatedly trying Odin is force to summon his weapon, Odin spear.
Odin who can blow up an entire solar system, without breaing a sweat has to call upon his weapon to fight Thanos, yet me saying Thanos is beyond the likes of Silver Surfer and by extention Superman, is putting Thanos at a higher pedistal
Heck Odin even goes on to praise how powerful Thanos is
This coming from a guy who fights beings like Surtur, Ymir, Infinity , Seth on a regular basis pretty clearly shows Thanos is significantly more powerful than guys like Surfer.
and thats not including how while it took Thanos 4 panel to stands, he was prefectly fine afterwards
So for odd reason this issue gave you an impression that Thanos's power was inconsequential to Odin despite the fact that Odin having to call forth his weapon to actually try and put Thanos down and failing or the fact that Thanos consistently massively outperforms guys like Silver Surfer, who were labelled no more than Thanos minion.
If thats your answer that supposedly took my argument apart than i can breath a sigh of relif because i dont have to convince you, but rather convince someone reading the argument.
Now lets look at Galactus instance, and given thats a fed Galactus, its nice you posted and scan in an attempt to low ball Thanos, but Galactus himself outright says he had to actually stress himself to peirce Thanos shield.
First here its made clearly that Galactus is well nourished
And Galactus had to really exert himself to peirce Thanos shield, that was no easy task for Galactus himself
Galactus used up so much power fighting Thanos that a fed Galactus, after fighting Thanos is now hungry, drained and needs to feed.
Galactus having to exter himself so much that he has to feed immediately after, fighting a guy at this level is absolutely unheard of, and we are talking about a guy who can practically move Galaxies, even in hungry state, with a mere gesture
Or something who can affect people from Galaxies away
But in light of all this you still want to pretend i am putting Thanos at a higher pedistal when i say he is and has always been significantly more powerful than Surfer and by extention Superman, then well all i can say is good for you.
In fact Marvel has long told us Thanos was more powerful than other minor skyfathers like Zuras.
Or marvel repeatedly telling us that the true limit of Thanos is unknown but he is powerful enough to exchange blows with Odin.
Exchanging blow with Odin isnt something Odin or Drax were capable of, and from an unbiased perspective neither would Superman.
Thanos is different because he was always created to be extremely powerful.
This is what Thanos fact sheet had to say
"From this point there have that he become usually involves trickery, decite or or occasionally reason"
Power wise Thanos is godlike has always been.
Helspont jacked up the environment to depower Superman
Again you have absolutely no proof whatsoever, and now are reduced to putting in scans and pretending what he said he meant as opposed to what it clearly seems he is talking about.
Helspont said mewl in pain, cool, try as you might not many people are so liberal to interpret that as somehow the environment having anything to do with it.
But yeah try and crop as many scans as you want, i did explain every single crop you posted earlier and it doesnt even remotely change the fact that nothing of the sort of was actually ever said or even hinted on the issue.
Good part is i dont have to convince you but rather anyone who is reading the argument and my part here is done.
Superman vs Unnamed Ememy
Honestly this feels incredible childish. I am point out how his morals affects him in a fight, you are refusing to look at it and pretending i am taking things out of context.
Good for you though, coz everything there were well addressed taking from panel.
If you wanna go keep pretending Superman in this thread fight completely differently than repeatedly showcased in comics let the voters judge.
Again you fail to show me one instance that shows anyone inflicted by PSI virus has some way to bypass Superman defenses when collective themselves failed.
Collective came embodied inside Superman suit on Earth, which is true, but what is also true is that Superman fought off and repelled Collective invasion when that happened.
Superman even went to detail of how collective invasion and their planned failed
Repeatedly explained then who they failed
Lois or anyone else were connected to every mind on Metropolis because they were a telepath, ability to see through mind is what telepaths do.
I dont see anything there even remotely saying they had some special power to bypass Superman's otherwise impenetrable TP defense (presuming Superman even has anything on that scale), which is what you are trying to say.
And i am not even sure what the rest of the scans are meant to show other than you can flood a thread with scans?
Where does it say or even remotely hint that Superman personal TP defense.
The way i see it if telepaths affected by PSI Virus can affect Superman, a telepath of Thanos order can.
You want to contest that, bring up actual evidence, or panel statement saying that Superman TP defense were somehow nullified.
Nothing of the sort was said on the comics.
Where does it hints Thanos is holding back, he was in a frezny against Gamora
You mean other than Thanos pretending to lose to Gamora? Coz thats what people do when they are in frenzy?
Or when Thanos was weaker but still a bad guy killed Gamora at will?
Or how under the same writer Thanos had no problem defeating being significantly faster than Gamora?
The problem is that there is no proof to what you are saying except assumption. Assumptions that are contradicted by the scans I presented.
It would have been nice if the scans you presented, at least 1 single scan you presented where from the same era.
Thanos reforms after Infinity Gauntlet and tries to become a hero leading to the story arc with Galactus called Thanos Redemption.
There is little to no doubt that Starlin was clearly playing on Thanos and Gamora having a proper father- daughter relationship and Gamora and Adam Warlock being the 2 beings Thanos actually cared about, but more about that below.
Your characterization of Thanos here is way off.
Its not, but lets see what are the things you have posted.
1. There are countless instance of Thanos butchering his children during Thanos rising
Yes they are which was before Thanos reformed, we are now going to look at a different era to somehow justify the instance?
2. Thanos burnt down Nebula
Nice but i dont see a connection. Nebula has no relationship to Thanos apart from her pretending to be Thanos Grand daughter.
They even went on to check Nebula genetic make up and found she has no connection to Thanos whatsoever.
Thanos actually hates Nebula among other things for pretending to be his Grand daughter
Now lets look at instance from era relevant, Post Infinity Gauntlet - Pre Annihilation, where he finally changes into his villianous form.
After him trying to be good , Death actually asked Thanos to kill Adam Warlock and she will finally be his
The guy whose sole purpose was to kill everyone, and the same person who has killed Warlock before, now refuses to kill Warlock.
Says a lot about a guy being reformed no.
Than at the same time, we have Jim Starlin repeatedly publishing stories that try and show Gamora and Thanos have bond, while the story takes place in a differnet time period, the fact that these stories were published now when Thanos has reformed and between Infinity War and Infinity Crusade leaves very little to doubt that the bond Thanos and Gamora share now is very father and daughter like.
We saw how Thanos saved and adopts Gamora as his adopted daughter
Then we saw how Gamora at one time saved Thanos life.
Now evaluate the fight under these guidelines.
1. Thanos wasnt serious in the fight with Gamora, as he pretend to lose. Anyone fighting serious wouldnt
2. When Thanos was serious, Thanos killed Gamora and being both faster and more powerful than her
3. There is absolutely no doubt that at the time Starlin was playing on Thanos and Gamora having more of a normal relationship between the two
4. We know Thanos only started the fight because Gamora was sad because she knew Adam was going to attacked in the future, and Thanos started the fight just to cheers her up.
Whether it is a clone or not you haven’t shown me any difference in between their speeds.
This argument is rather childish, point is none of them were Thanos and Thanos himself is a whole lot more powerful than their clone.
Thanos practically killing one of his clone with 1 attack no less, should at least give that away , no?
Thanos clone arent anywhere close to as powerful as Thanos, and hence using his clone to say something then pretending Thanos not being able to hit an opponent is commanility doesnt get you anywhere.
If anything the clones are just as fast as he is. After all some of them are stronger than him (Starlin’s own run).
Starlin has never at any point said Thanos clone were as powerful as him. And some of them are stronger than him? Only 1 clone was more powerful and that was because the clone was created out of Galactus DNA called Omega.
Unless you are telling me the same is true for Thanosi appearing during Celestial Quest then substantiate it. Show me how the clone was just as powerful as Thanos.
We have seen some Thanos clone being defeated by She Hulk for goodness sake they arent anywhere as good as thanos and hence the retcon.
If it’s consistency you want, I’ll provide another instance.
Nice now we are moving goal post arent we.
First we so boldly claim that not being able to tag opponent is commonality for Thanos but now we are reduced to speculating based on powerless Thanos and Silver Surfer fight...
I mean come on.
And just a random reminder, Superman isnt fighting a powerless Thanos in an astral world, so i am not even sure how that is even relevant.
Are you going to pretend Thanos speed is same with or without his powers?
Despite the fact that reaction speed was one of the thing Thanos agumented using genetic manipulation and magic?
"He initially further enchanced his strength, agility, reaction time and endurance through genetic engineering"
A fight that takes away Thanos power doesnt susbstantiate your claim that not being able to tag someone is commonality for Thanos.
Drax is not Superman neither is Adam Warlock, Thor or Surfer
Thats again missing the point. These are being who havent been in no shape to retaliate being hit by Thanos, whose durability are every bit as impressive as Superman, no pray tell why would Superman be different?
Specially given just how powerful Thanos shields are.
Breaking a helmet from inside is far easier than breaking a helmet from outside
No idea if this is even true but its inconsequential, because thats not how Quasar shield work.
Quasar shield has no problem containing Binary inside it who was powerless to free herself.
And the best durability i can see on your post for Superman is somehow taking hits from a guy with power to destroy a ship 1/3 the size of the moon (size i dont agree with in the least but we will get into that later), Binary herself has busted an entire planet.
And Binary isnt the only one who found herself helpless against a quantum shield
So if you want to say Superman can tank the attack with little damage i suggest you bring forth durability feats.
Also please kindly substantiate or whatever you pretend him to be, because from what i can recall he hasnt done anything in new 52.
So if you are making claims i would expect you to substantiate that.
First where are you getting that the world ships were 1/3 the size of the moon? Drawing your interpretation from size shown on panel is and has always been faulty because things arent drawn to scale.
So how big would you say Thanos is, give or take 1/10 the size of the planet?
How big would you say Celestials are compared to planets?
So thats a very faulty assumption.
And even if we assume they could destroy something 1/3 the size of the moon that still leaves them far behind Binary, Terrax and so many others.
Furthermore, Silver Surfer durability is far more impressive than that.
Surfer fighting Morg destroy a planet
Beyond planetary level durability fighiting Korvac
Thor's durability is every bit as impressive, as is Drax (i did show you few Drax and Thor feats in other thread we debated)
So my question is simple, they couldnt do it, consistently (its not against 1 person), what makes you think Superman can do it.
Rather than what makes you think, how do you substantiate Superman can take the attack without much damage.
I dont understand what "heavy " context you are talking about.
Thanos was the only person who could kill them permanently nothing there suggesting Thanos mere touch was depowering them or decreasing their durability.
Thanos went few rounds with Lord Marvel , he did die with his touch or anything.
Thanos destroying cancerverse Hulk into nothing more than skeleton is his own power, it had nothing to do with Thanos being an avatar of Death, which he has always been. Then not being able to come back to life however is.
If you say anything against it i suggest you post proof, because as you can clearly see Thanso touches or punches where outright killing Lord Marvel, why would his energy attack be any different.
They were watered down version of Avengers
Based on what? Because Hulk was defeated by 2 cosmic grade telepath?
Cosmos defeats the Hulk using Telepathy
Given just how powerful a telepath Cosmos is i dont see how that shows its a watered down version.
Lets look at the evidences that contradict canceverse hereos being watered down.
World mind seem to think they are every bit as powerful as Earth counterpart
"Rider the false Quasar's quantum powers are
Furthermore they fought Cancerverse Thor.
"There creeps have got serious power"
Which further contradicts you claiming Canverse heroes were weaker.
Look at what Ms Marvel from cancerverse has to say
"You? The Watered- down echo of our vaughn"
Heck they though 616 heroes were watered down"
Not to mention Thanos being able to do what he did is perfectly understandable seeing how powerful Thanos is.
Having just brought back to life, weakened, Thanos destroyed an entire planet (Sacrosant homeworld)
Thanos's polar opposite whom Thanos has fought and defeated, Magus,(i posted the scan on other thread when debating with you) were so powerful that this is what Nova World Mind had to say about them.
Thanos even overpowered Lord Marvel who defeated him (Magus) as well as defeated Silver Surfer, Quasar and Nova Prime together.
He is and has always been a lot more powerful than you are giving him credit for.
Furthermore, its not like Thanos hasnt done that to other character who are just as powerful.
He killed Drax, leaving nothing of Drax body behind, while still being weakened after having come back to life moments earlier.
Or killing Graetar who is every bit as powerful as Hulk.
And here it confirms Graetor was just as strong as Hulk.
So i dont see what suggest Superman could tank Thanos attack and even be able to retaliate when people just as powerful as Superman and every bit durable if not more so have failed.
Superman Armor stops being indestructible when faced in a fight gets torn to shreads. Regardless of it repairing itself after Superman was KOed it doesnt change anything.
Still very destructible.
And if you wanna claim the cape is indestructible bring forth feats to suggest it could tank Thanos attack.
Superman's other senses
Superman’s vision isn’t simply restricted to X ray. He can see with his sight, the various forms of energy in the spectrum.
Meaning that Superman would not only see Thanos’ shield but also be privy to the OBVIOUS weakness.
Thats copy past of what you said, problem is Superman certainly isnt the only person with that power, Surfer has the same power as well, and given Surfer didnt find one shred of weakness in Thanos shield i fail to see how Superman would find one, or what obvious weakness you are going on about.
Thanos technology work beyond the level of sub-atomic on an unheard Spectro level, Superman super sense is going to give him no leeway to find a weakness on his shield or his own power, specially considering Superman doesnt have the ability to see thru Spectro levels. Heck he probably cant see on subatomic level let alone beyond that.
The first one is just for LOLz given for odd reason you love saying warp reality, you went on to say Helspont warped reality in front of Superman when nothing of the sort happened, and you claimed Darkseid warped reality without any details being shown.
Here is Thanos warping reality such that Deadpool becomes immortal.
Other ability, transmutation.
An angry Thanos merely looks upon a Skrull
and boom Skrull turns into stone
What exactly is Superman's defense against it?
And you still havent answered Telepath properly yet, based on what you have said i see no reason to believe Thanos couldnt simply destroy Superman mind turning him into a mindless statue.
Life force manipulation.
But always the most convinent way to defeat, a good old fashioned AOE attack.
@reaverlation: I have the same problem really, which is why first few replies i tried my best to try and group everything. Despite the fact that we have posted just about same number of scans, Blazing's post looks a whole lot bigger because he just doesnt group them but rather puts in whole scan. Its effective when done for a small number of scans, at the moments its just too many full size scans.
@mr_winchester: @iragexcudder: @kidman560: @deathandgrim: @dorukesin: @king_stranglehold_da_first: @lvenger: @god_of_batman: @wolverine08: @reaverlation: @dondave: @anyoneelsewhohasn'tgottenthepointyet
Remember how I locked the last thread and let this thread be made again because of all the non-debate posts from bystanders in the original? Remember how I deleted posts from bystanders in this very thread? I don't see how it can remain unclear that until they decide its time for a vote, this thread is for blazinghell and killemall to post their arguments, not for anyone else to comment at any and every opportunity. I mean, is that unclear? Does that escape anyone's understanding? Is it necessary for me to do more than tell you, in no uncertain terms, not to post anymore until the discussion is over? Because see, I thought it was a fairly simple concept. I could have MAYBE understood one person suggesting the spoiler tags because the images have long since gotten ridiculous, but multiple people do not need to chime in to say the same thing, especially when it can be said over PM. Even less necessary is people commenting on the discussion before it's concluded. And just so it's clear, so there's no confusion, I do not need any replies to this post. The only response I want is silence. The way to express you've gotten the message, that you're sorry, and that you won't do it again, is to NOT POST IN THIS THREAD UNTIL IT'S OVER.
@blazinghell: I dont have a problem with you replying late so you dont have to apologise for that, but i however, am not going to lower myself and enter into a pissing contest with you, i am just gonna let voters decide because franklin some of your argument are ridiculous.
You wouldnt say Superman is just as powerful as Majestic simple because they are both top tier heroes
Of course i wouldnt because from what i know of Majestic like rearranging the entire solar system and turning it into a binary system shows he is significantly more powerful.
I would however say Thor , Silver Surfer and Drax are everybit as powerful as Superman because their feats line. I am judging based on feat not on hierarchy or role.
Like i said you can disagree with it all you want, and complain about it, i am sticking by it.
Feel free to pretend you took it apart just as well when you did no such thing.
You havent posted Thanos skill but his resume with other opponents
Yes being showing his destructive powers, AOE attack, telepathy, matter manipulation translates into showing his resume with opponents, nice. :)
Thanos power is minuscule to both Odin and Galactus so your argument is invalid
which is pretty cop out way of seeing it given Thanos power being miniscule to ODin is pretty directly contradicted with their respective showing or the whole bunch of bios i posted.
Thanos power however is and has always been miniscule to Galactus, that i dont disagree , never have, but than again Odin's power compared to Galactus is likewise, specially off late.
The argument was quite simple Thanos hwoever is significantly superior to other guys like Silver Surfer, but yeah feel free to pretend otherwise.
I am not going to regugrate myself, its well laid out and you are welcome to ignore let the voters decide.
(Scan Spammage), but that is exactly what you are doing.
Sorry, staying clear of pissing contest, let the voters decide who is doing the scan spammage.
You took the events of Helspont and neglated to mention what happened \
Being mocked by 2 posters whose comment has been removed in regards to the same thing didnt give that away to you did it?
Helspont had nothing to do with depowering Superman, nor was he depowered and you have absolutely no proof. You panels have been explained in detail to you, you keep ignoring that and have.
Well and truely, in detail addressed, let the voters decide.
Silver Surfer has actually had a victory over Thanos
Hurry for ignoring contest and making stuffs up.
Neither of them had their powers, they where on Earth dimension while their astral sense fighting on another completely different dimension, a lovely way to see it.
A powerless Thanos vs powerless Surfer.
How about we look at things a bit more you know relevant.
First Starlin explaining how Surfer while similar to Thanos is just of a low tier
We also know that Thanos is going to nearly kill Surfer but choose not to (its not like Thanos hasnt done that before)
We also know that Silver Surfer hates and fears Thanos
We also know that Thanos and Silver Surfer have fought and Thanos nearly killed him (but choose to live him with a shed of his cosmic powers)
Or Surfer with his angry blast finds himself completely unable to do anything against Thanos.
I am pretty convinced its enough to convince a reasonable man where Thanos and Surfer lie in power ranking.
(Not only did in the story Thanos hold his own against Thor ridden by madness, who was already taking apart guys like Silver Surfer and Drax with ease, he went toe to toe with Thor after he had power gem when a large group of superheroes were stark helpless against him.)
Hardly with ease
The top part is my comments the bottom part is yours, and its nice to just totally missed what i said.
You wanna see where Thor was taking them with ease, here we go.
Thor vs Beta Ray Bill
Thor vs Surfer
Then after momentary been brought to his knees Thor starts to fight, BRB gets one shotted.
Silver Surfer being a bit more durable last for more than 1 shot (2 infact)
Surfer thanks Warlock's untimely arrival which is what saved him, and believe maybe two of them together can fair better.
Yet again another fight and this is how Surfer fared
Thanos ends up retreating
Thats not what happened, Thanos left to get the gun because he was bored.
And when Surfer asked why you did not use the gun earlier, here again
Heck Thanos actually creates the same force block while fighting Odin without the need of a gun.
Thanos power is minuscule to Odin
Yeah seeing how easy the fight was and seeing how Odin had to summon his weapon to fight Thanos and still failed to put him down I am sure thats exactly how everyone reading this would interpret it.
Specially considering Odin never had to call upon his spear to you know, one shot both Surfer and Drax or the only person that i know he has called his spear against would be Surtur and Ymir.
But yeah feel free to disagree, i'll let the voters decide.
On a side note, apart from Surtur and Ymir, something similar happened when Odin fought Galactus, he had to summon the Destroyer Armor, and admit he didnt have powers to continue fighting Galactus anymore despite Galactus not being least bit hurt.
Galactus certainly is leagues and bounds more powerful than Thanos, as well as Odin, if anything the power difference between Galactus and Odin is likely greater than power difference between Thanos and Odin.
(My response) Odin blew up a star system without breaking a sweat - (your response) which are events subject to hyperbole
Yep totally hyperbole when we actually see Odin hold a freakin star and blow it up and even reignite it.
Or how planets were torn by there bare hands
Yep totally hyperbole.
Are you honestly trying to imply that Thanos was tanking attacks that would blow up and entire solar system? Then how come Asgard as a whole is still standing? and other bunch of weird stuffs...
While i never said anything about quantifying the power of the blast i would think it was pretty close to it given even without the weapon he was one shotting Surfer and Drax, both of whom have endured a supernova.
As per why aws Asgard still standing and heroes still standing, because the blast was hitting Thanos not heroes or Asgard.
The side effect are sheldom showcased in comics.
Lets see few examples.
Elder God Set (amped up no less) fight the God Eater on Earth and the planet isnt destroyed, although apparently it wiped out the dinosaurs (which is what the second set of fight claim as well)
Or when Arishem and Dreamin Celestial fought, the planet wasnt destroyed
Surtur fights Thor, Designati and Odin on Earth, and a blast unleased kills Odin , neither the heroes on the surrounding, neither normal humans around nor the planet is destroyed.
There is also a whole lot of other battles i can draw upon but you get the point.
Collateral damage is not a very good way of measuring the power output. Because Thanos vs Drax destroyed a planet, while Arishem vs Dreaming Celestial didnt, measuring it on the power output one would think Thanos and Drax are more powerful, we all know either Arishem or Dreaming Celestial are not only more powerful, but simply leagues and bounds beyond them and Odin and perhaps even Galactus at times.
Thanos wasnt fine after Odin's fight
Well lets see, he is seen standing ok without any problems talking to Thor and everyone.
Or afterwards where Thor tells him to leave
Lex Luthor currently has Black Adam, Sinestro, Superman’s clone and Batman himself as his "minions".
Would you be kind enough to show me a panel where they are called his minion?
Galactus wasn't well nourished when fighiting Thanos because:
1. Galactus had to warp himself in the core of a star which would take significant energy to endure.
And assertion that would be be valid only if Galactus doesnt go around consuming stars when he is hungry
Or if his herald himself didnt go through exploding stars for fun
Seriously, how much do you know of Galactus?
Heat, cold, stuffs like this doesnt affect Galactus he is far beyond stuffs like this.
Galactus doesnt even notice absolute zero in temprature
In fact it doesnt affect him in the least
Or if you like there is a panel explaining exactly that
"place one appendage in freezing cold, and the other in boiling hot, feel would you the effects. Galactus would not. He is beyond such trivialities"
So i am at a completely loss how this somehow translates to saying Galactus power must have wayned.
2. He pulls an object out of trans-dimensional portal
Not sure how pulling an object out of a portal would weaken him, and it was a infinity gem he pulled out.
Galactus opens tears in time and space, a portal to realm of Eternity with ease whenever he pleases.
He also at whim can travel between dimensions without being even slightly affect, from 3d universe to 4th dimension.
If you think stuffs like that weakens Galactus you dont know him very well mate.
Thats not including how Galactus himself says it was in his fight with Thanos where he used up his energies.
"Dealing with you [Thanos] has depleted vital energies"
"My hunger thunders its demand"
3. Galactus was reduced in both strength and size for the entire series
No he wasnt, that was the effect of a hungry Galactus fighting Hunger and nearly dying.
After being sandwitched between 2 planets and most importantly substantial amount of super weapons, Thanos enquires if Galactus is living where he says he is alive but diminished in size
and thats exactly what happens when Galactus has used all his energies, he shrinks
So yeah you are interpreting the series wrongly, Galactus was of proper size and well norished.
It was after his fight with Thanos, then Hunger, then the plot bombs and stuffs that Galactus is now diminised in power and shrinks.
Thats why Fallen One was now targetting Galactus and he was nearly powerless to defend himself.
This assumption that you are drawing that Galactus was left utterly powerless after their encounter is utterly baseless.
It would be baseless if i said Galactus was utterly powerless which i did not. I merely said Galactus was hungry.
A hungry Galactus has fought and defeated InBetweener, humble entire inter-galactic army, engaged in near universe destroying fight with Mephisto, fought Agamatto in his own realm and so on and so forth.
My argument is simple, Galactus needing to feed after a fight with anyone like Thanos is absolutely unheard of.
He wasnt even in the same state after fighting Odin , or Scarier and The Other a fight that nearly destroyed the universe or multiverse (depends on whose word you listed to Galactus or Oblivion).
Other stuffs like being more powerful than Zuras tell us nothing about how he faires against Superman
No it doesnt, which is why i didnt post it in my post reply, that was to suggest his power is indeed closer to Odin, given Zuras has fought Zeus on a equal footing before .
Superman is anointed as the most powerful being on the planet on numerous occasions.
Oh we are going to hang with hyperboles now are we?
Sure, Thanos was said to be near-omnipotent
Firstly written by Jim Shooters
Then by Jim Starlin
And something similar by Jonathan Hickman
And the same thing was said about Appolo just as well.
I chuckled when i saw the stats speed
Thats because you are likely unaware people with teleportation abilities are given max in terms of speed, same is true for Deadpool when he has teleportation tech, not sure if he still does.
Its the strenght and durability stats that i wanted to draw the attention towards.
I proved Helspont depowered Superman
Simple answer, no you didnt.
Thanos cant teleport on that (Helspont) level either
Really, for a guy who has teleported across space, time, dimension, galaxies he cant?
Could you show me Helspont teleporting across time?
Or teleporting thru dimension, Earth domain to domain of abstracts: Mistress Death
He has even freakin teleported from Earth dimension to dimension of Manifest a 16 dimension reality that lies outside all convention space , time , reality and dream as seen here.
So really lets see you show me feats from Helspont that match this, for one trying to claim Thanos cant teleport on the level of Helspont.
Nor is he a conqueror of star system on level of Helspont
For a guy who has conqurered entire universe, stuffs like this feel rubbish.
For a guy against whom the whole universe trembles.
Intergalactic rules like Supreme Intelligence who rule over all of Kree, address Thanos as LORD Thanos
Thanos could conquere Galaxies, even more if he wanted to. He isnt a conqueror however, he did what he did to please death.
So still no single stuffs that shows they somehow bypassed Superman defense , good then.
You are disagree all you want, i will let the voters decide
Given our resident Superman expert disagrees with that interpretation (i shall not name him before the thread is over) and couple of other do (as evident by PMS i have got) its pretty straight forward.
Not to mention that Thanos TP isn’t all you are hyping it up to be. In fact he requires constant assistance from Moondragon to even communicate with a being like Galactus.
I mean come on. They were trying to wrestle information out of Galactus forcefully, the fact that the two of them combined even came close is a feat in itself.
You are talking as if getting into galactus head is so damn easy, Prof X and Magneto pulled together their power to try and get into Galactus head, what happened, they failed.
And this was a hungry Galactus btw, having just pwned by the Beyonder.
Galactus himself has pretty powerful telepathy,he just doesnt like to use it.
He has telepathically communicated with Nova who was 1000 lightyears away.
PSI War were pretty powerful telepath
Probably so, but Superman was affected by a lot more times than them. The motherbox safeguard him from Hector Hammond is good didnt help him against others though.
And since we are talking about infinity TP prowess, lets look at X.
He was telepathically able to hold Genis Vell
Since you went on what Parasite had to say, well Genis is even more powerful, he is an omniversal telepath
Moondragon still managed to defeat him by Telepathic manipulation.
You know someone who was telepathically defeated by Thanos.
People hold back when they are in a frenzy? In what planet?
Re-read what i wrote.
Thanos wasnt in frenzy.
Which is why I said
You mean other than Thanos pretending to lose to Gamora? Coz thats what people do when they are in frenzy?
What, Thanos killed Adam and routinely kills his offspring
Again completely missing the point arent we ?
Thanos killed Adam when he was still evil.
After he reformed Death expressly asked Thanos to kill Adam during Infinity Wars, and Thanos doesnt.
Thanos also only killed his offspring when he was evil, he was reformed about 2 odd decade, which is where your scan of his fight with Gamora is from but we will get more in that later.
What are you trying to say Thanos has a moral code?
He was a reformed man who tried to correct his mistake, even surrendered himself to Rigel people for his past mistakes, which is what brought him in a temporary conflict with Galactus.
During Infinity War, Infinity Crusade, Infinity Abyss, I Thanos, Blood and Thunder, Thanos solo he was a reformed guy trying to be good.
He was in fact a member of Infinity Watch, Adam Warlock even gave him the reality gem.
How about just judging it from what actually happening rather than something you hastily concocted in your head?
Very well lets do.
1. Thanos only starts the fight to cheers Gamora up.
2. Thanos pretends to lose.
3. Or when Thanos was still a bad guy who cared nothing about anyone else he killed Gamora just fine.
4. Or Gamora herself admitting she was going to get killed by Armor, a Thanosi that Thanos one shotted.
OR most importantly i would let everyone reading this decide.
Adam says Warrior is more powerful than Thanos
Actually i stand corrected on this one, well done there. I seemed to have missed that part of Infinity Abyss.
Let me refresh your memory with Infinity Wars
This i dont agree with, they were Thanos clones, but rather M-Bodies created by Prime Manifestor
Prime Manifestro is a neo-omnipotent cosmic entity who lives in the dimension of Manifest, whose sole purpose is to create M-Bodies for ever single abstract in marvel reality.
M-Bodies created by Prime Manifestor have very little in common with Thanosi created by Thanos himself.
What makes you think they were powerless?
1. Their body was in Earth plane while they were fighiting on an Astral Plane.
2. They are fighting on horses and with swords as opposed to power cosmic.
3. Last time Silver Surfer ended up in an astral world , inside Soul Gem, he found himself powerless, as did everyone else.
Drax overpower and killed Thanos
Yay for missing context.
1. Thanos was weakened since birth and had not even gotten to full power, although was close enough.
2. Thanos was weakened upon entering Cancerverse (scan you posted so i dont see a need to repost again)
3. Drax used a plot gun against Thanos to temporary get a breating space, or are you telling me you cant see the giant gun on panel.
4. Drax killed thanos with another plot device, an antimatter bomb.
5. Thanos came back to life, weakened as one would assume, in a universe where he is gets weakened anyways, and killed Drax.
6. And throughout the arc Thanos wanted to die.
The fact remains that they were easily (without Thanos)defeated and then regenerated
Yeah Hulk was defeated by telepathy by perhaps the most powerful telepath in marvel there is without including cosmic beings (dont want to get into territory of Phoenix or The Other).
Or the whole series repeatedly making it prefectly clear that Cancerverse heroes were just as powerful as the Earth counterpart, if not more so.
So there really is no excuse for you to make.
Superman's armor changes along with his own DNA signature. Of course it changed, he was attacked with his own weakness as described on the scan
Another convinent excuse, there is a big difference between changed and torn, and it was torn pretty well, you can see parts hanging out a bit under his arm pit.
His armor is still indestructible
Because it was said so?
I already showed you one bio where his durability was maxed out, which actually means virtually indestrucible - godlike
here is one from 2004 bio
Or a bit older 1991 bio
By the same token Thanos's durability is Godlike and totally indestrucible so Superman isnt going to even be able to harm him.
Superdoomsday and Military attack
Are you trying to tell me Superdoomsday or whatever the guys name is tried to destroy the cape and failed, coz your scan certainly doesnt show so.
And i am unsure what the minitary attack has anything to do with it, Thanos's attacks are far more potent.
Thanos has an eternal dependency on the ground for combat. Common sense dictates that this is the one area where his shield does not cover. Right under his feet.
No he doesnt he can levitate just fine.
Blake's telekenesis didnt work on him so Thanos matter manipulation wont work
Thats a very convulated reason i dont see how the two connects. And Hel's TK worked perfectly against Surperman.
I have no idea how that suggest he can escape Thanos matter manipulation. Skrull can change their DNA at will, change shape, change size, it worked on them why not Superman?
The Armor can heal his molecules
Not sure whats preventing the Armor itself being turned into stone.
Now lets look at durability section
1. Tanked a blast from World Destroyer
Well you know what more potent than just mere World Destroyer, Thor hammer.
So thats a bit a lolz part there.
And Surfer has beyond planetary level durability surving Korvac blast and all, as i showed you right before in the last post.
And he goes around destroying planets.
Thanos before his power upgrade destroyed a planet as a side effect of fighiting Drax
And after the upgrade destroy a planet while weakened.
Surfer who is weaker than Thanos, as clearly substantiated earlier, has destroy planet just to make a point.
I showed you 2 additional instance of Surfer destroying planet once against Korvac and once against Morg, both the instances also show him beyond planetary level durability.
So based on feats, Surfer has just as good if not better feats than World Destroyer as well as just as good if not much better feats than New 52 Superman, and Thanos blast did its job against Surfer, why not Superman?
Thor has the same, and Drax has the same.
Black hole lasers
I would think that was mini black holes than anything else which are hardly impressive.
Thor himself was subjected to numberous of those mini black hole, being weighted under a weight of 12 planets and Thor endured.
The blast had Thor in trouble without being able to retaliate. why would Superman be any different
On the same token Thanos henchmen, or rather Generals, had Hulk under the weight of a star, and Hulk pushed through.
So yeah planetary level durability is sported by pretty much every heavy hitter in marvel, including Drax, Thor , Silver Surfer and many others, they were all affected by Thanos's blast just fine why would superman be any different.
Lets look at something even better.
Mangog gets hit by a sun shredder and he tanks it without a single injury.
Yet in the same freakin series he was scared to death of Thanos.
As you even went on to talk about threat level, well from Nova, to heralds, to Thanos were all seen as universal threat
Like i said, i question Superman ability to actually put Thanos down, not to mention Superman makes a concious effort to actually scan the area and verify if there is anything living before going all out.
And the unknown ememy instance clearly shows Superman isnt starting the fight with a blitz which is going to cost him dearly.
And Thanos has ways around speedblitz, erecting his shield
Or a good old fashion TK
Lets see what else you have to add, coz i am staying clear of the pissing contest and we can open up for votes when you are ready.
Guys...I have one of the best All-In-Ones computers on the market, I got it for scrolling through my favorite comics. However, I might need to get my eyes checked after reading through this debate. I got a great internet connection and it takes several minutes to load this entire thread due to all the scans and reading the arguments is difficult because with my big computer screen I'm blinded by all the repetitive scans.
I know you guys put a lot of time into this, but you might want to just call this one off...it seemed to degenerate into an ego contest between you both. Blazinghell is mostly responsible for flooding the thread with his scans (try condensing them next time), but killemall should have called him on that earlier and put a stop to it. You need to control the argument as well. Make a new thread and agree to have scans condensed or only have the option for 10 scans to prove your point...there must be hundreds on this thread.