Interesting, though I didn't need that for me to know they made Goku much weaker than he actually is, and make Superman wayy stronger than he actually was as well. Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies while the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor. . . hmmm I wonder who wins.
Further reading for DBZ debaters
@ariesxmasters said:
Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies
Hyperbolic high-balling.
@ariesxmasters said:
the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor
Hyperbolic low-balling.
@saren said:
DBZ is literally subhuman and these articles are just to make people feel better about that
You say that about all anime lol.
Okay then.
I agree that DeathBattle screwed their logic up for both characters, but I don't disagree on the outcome. Anyways, that users article is filled with the typical lapses in argument and logic that usually go along with most DBZ debates.....and,
@jaken7 said:
@ariesxmasters said:
Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies
Hyperbolic high-balling.
@ariesxmasters said:
the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor
Hyperbolic low-balling.
@ariesxmasters said:
Interesting, though I didn't need that for me to know they made Goku much weaker than he actually is, and make Superman wayy stronger than he actually was as well. Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies while the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor. . . hmmm I wonder who wins.
B...b.b..but Goku never displayed destroying a solar syatem, a panet or even a moon. And Superman is way stronger and faster than Goku by feats.
I mean Im not impartial on who wins but I need proof of Goku doing things that out trump Superman by feats and not statments.
@ariesxmasters said:
Interesting, though I didn't need that for me to know they made Goku much weaker than he actually is, and make Superman wayy stronger than he actually was as well. Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies while the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor. . . hmmm I wonder who wins.
the same guy who's skin can be pierced by shop object like needles and sharp rocks. he wins
@ssjbatdan said:
http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-battle-erred-goku-vs-superman
Everyones seen this lmao
I do disagree about the outcome and how they arrived at it but its spilled freaken milk, everyone needs to get over it.
@jaken7 said:
@ariesxmasters said:
Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies
Hyperbolic high-balling.
@ariesxmasters said:
the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor
Hyperbolic low-balling.
Yawn, typical excuse.
Call it a hyperbole since the writer Toriyama doesn't care about pointless feats('cause that is what they would be in Dbz pointless and not add anything to the story or character development), and instead just confirms things in his guide books and interviews.
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@ariesxmasters said:
Interesting, though I didn't need that for me to know they made Goku much weaker than he actually is, and make Superman wayy stronger than he actually was as well. Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies while the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor. . . hmmm I wonder who wins.
B...b.b..but Goku never displayed destroying a solar syatem, a panet or even a moon. And Superman is way stronger and faster than Goku by feats.
I mean Im not impartial on who wins but I need proof of Goku doing things that out trump Superman by feats and not statments.
Yeah, and by feats Batman can knock Superman out of a building and make him bleed with a punch. Still wanna go by stupid feats lmao? By feats Superman can die from a regular nuke, by feats Superman can be knocked out by the shock waves alone from a exploding planet, let alone the actual explosion it'self. By feats Superman has trouble lifting a 300,000+ pound Helicarrier and he had the help of Wonder Woman on top of that. By feats Superman gets a headache from getting slammed on his head and punched a few times, by feats Batman can tag Superman more than once. A lot of times feats are as reliable as power levels, they aren't at all.
@w0nd said:
@ariesxmasters said:
Interesting, though I didn't need that for me to know they made Goku much weaker than he actually is, and make Superman wayy stronger than he actually was as well. Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies while the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor. . . hmmm I wonder who wins.
the same guy who's skin can be pierced by shop object like needles and sharp rocks. he wins
Good thing this means like. . .ya'know. . .nothing. Unless Superman plans on grabbing a knife which is not how Superman fights lol, and even then he still has to be able to hit Goku.
The big difference between Goku and Superman is that Goku only gets tagged by guys as fast or faster combat speed, Superman on the other hand gets tagged by guys like with regular speed like Batman.
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@ariesxmasters said:
Interesting, though I didn't need that for me to know they made Goku much weaker than he actually is, and make Superman wayy stronger than he actually was as well. Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies while the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor. . . hmmm I wonder who wins.
B...b.b..but Goku never displayed destroying a solar syatem, a panet or even a moon. And Superman is way stronger and faster than Goku by feats.
I mean Im not impartial on who wins but I need proof of Goku doing things that out trump Superman by feats and not statments.
Yeah, and by feats Batman can knock Superman out of a building and make him bleed with a punch. Still wanna go by stupid feats lmao? By feats Superman can die from a regular nuke, by feats Superman can be knocked out by the shock waves alone from a exploding planet, let alone the actual explosion it'self. By feats Superman has trouble lifting a 300,000+ pound Helicarrier and he had the help of Wonder Woman on top of that. By feats Superman gets a headache from getting slammed on his head and punched a few times, by feats Batman can tag Superman more than once. A lot of times feats are as reliable as power levels, they aren't at all.
Thats nice you point out the low showings of Superman yes they are there there is no denying that 70+ of being around and damn near invincble will give any character low showings, even Goku. But my point isn't about low showings, its about Goku feats that put him up there with Superman. He is up there with Supes I just feel Supes has more advantages.
Like I was saying by feats what puts Goku above Superman (keep in mind that I am not lowballing Goku, I am just asking for his feats). Goku never traversed the galaxy at very high speeds or lifted the weight of the earth. Goku hasn't destroyed any planet, star, moon, or galaxy. Superman atleast towed a Battleworld and I think he destroyed a planet (pre crsis). SA Supes actually sneezed away a galaxy(but were not using him, becase he is insanly OPed). Superman IMO with his powers are more versitile than Goku, and although Goku is a better fighter h2h by feats Superman did train with Monguals son in fighting and knows Kryptoian fighting, so he is no sloch (again Goku is a better fighter). Superman is also vastly intellent and that does factor into the fight.
Again I will state I am not impartial to who wins and I am not looking to lowball Goku or any other Z warrior or character.
I am just looking facts are facts .Feats are greater than statments.
Superman has been shown by feats not statments to be faster, durable, versitil, smarter and stronger than Goku. Yes Goku is the better fighter by feats, but Superman has got him beat in way more areas.
Why Saren has to troll in every anime thread?
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@ariesxmasters said:
Interesting, though I didn't need that for me to know they made Goku much weaker than he actually is, and make Superman wayy stronger than he actually was as well. Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies while the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor. . . hmmm I wonder who wins.
B...b.b..but Goku never displayed destroying a solar syatem, a panet or even a moon. And Superman is way stronger and faster than Goku by feats.
I mean Im not impartial on who wins but I need proof of Goku doing things that out trump Superman by feats and not statments.
Yeah, and by feats Batman can knock Superman out of a building and make him bleed with a punch. Still wanna go by stupid feats lmao? By feats Superman can die from a regular nuke, by feats Superman can be knocked out by the shock waves alone from a exploding planet, let alone the actual explosion it'self. By feats Superman has trouble lifting a 300,000+ pound Helicarrier and he had the help of Wonder Woman on top of that. By feats Superman gets a headache from getting slammed on his head and punched a few times, by feats Batman can tag Superman more than once. A lot of times feats are as reliable as power levels, they aren't at all.
Thats nice you point out the low showings of Superman yes they are there there is no denying that 70+ of being around and damn near invincble will give any character low showings, even Goku. But my point isn't about low showings, its about Goku feats that put him up there with Superman. He is up there with Supes I just feel Supes has more advantages.
Like I was saying by feats what puts Goku above Superman (keep in mind that I am not lowballing Goku, I am just asking for his feats). Goku never traversed the galaxy at very high speeds or lifted the weight of the earth. Goku hasn't destroyed any planet, star, moon, or galaxy. Superman atleast towed a Battleworld and I think he destroyed a planet (pre crsis). SA Supes actually sneezed away a galaxy(but were not using him, becase he is insanly OPed). Superman IMO with his powers are more versitile than Goku, and although Goku is a better fighter h2h by feats Superman did train with Monguals son in fighting and knows Kryptoian fighting, so he is no sloch (again Goku is a better fighter). Superman is also vastly intellent and that does factor into the fight.
Again I will state I am not impartial to who wins and I am not looking to lowball Goku or any other Z warrior or character.
I am just looking facts are facts .Feats are greater than statments.
Superman has been shown by feats not statments to be faster, durable, versitil, smarter and stronger than Goku. Yes Goku is the better fighter by feats, but Superman has got him beat in way more areas.
The fact that low showing exist just proves that feats are very unreliable. There has never really been a instance where Goku has been in need of Traversing the galaxy at high speed since he has Instant transmission. Goku lifting the earth weight would add nothing to the story ,and Superman lifting the earth weight feat can easily be countered with that feat I mentioned earlier of him struggling to lift a Helicarrier while having the help of Wonder Woman. I don't think Superman has every moved the earth by himself even Pre-52. Silver Age Superman sneezing the Solar System away doesn't count since there is story context behind it. How is Superman more versatile than Goku let alone any other character from Dbz? Like this part isn't even debatable. New-52 Superman doesn't know any kind of fighting style.
Yeah and again Superman has also been shown by feats not statement to get tagged and made bleed by Batman. That plus Superman has 10,000+ Comic books and is the face of the company, Goku has 1 manga and a few movies of course Superman naturally has more feats to back him 10,000 is way more than 1 plus he is the face of DC. Superman all of those things you mentioned with Superman are inconsistent from his speed to his durability to his strength.
Goku's writers confirms everything instead of putting pointless feats that don't mean anything. Like Goku destroying the earth or the Solar System would add nothing to the manga and would be pointless filler. Toriyama confirms how strong every character is and their destructive capabilities.
I'm going to try debating like Aries next time I'm in a match and see if anyone takes me seriously.
@dbvse7 said:
@w0nd: There's a logical theory/reason behind that. A reason that doesn't use plot as an excuse.
yes but no one ever factors that in, he can be hurt.
I am not saying he would lose, but you could potentially impale him or something as trivial as impaling him on a sharp object could end up killing him.
Ones output/Blast power is insane.
the others physical power is insane.
They both have a fair chance
so true man..
@ariesxmasters said:
If feats are so unreliable, the battle forums should just consist of votes to see who wins.
@buttersdaman000 said:
@ariesxmasters said:
The fact that low showing exist just proves that feats are very unreliable.
If feats are so unreliable, the battle forums should just consist of votes to see who wins.
I didn't mean it like that. I just wish there was a better way to determine a characters power other than using feats. The battle forum does a lot of times turn into "Which character do you like more?" vs "Which character is stronger?"
@ariesxmasters: putting it simply: feats are unreliable, but statements are worthless without feats. No matter how you play it, feats always have, and always will hold higher ground.
@ariesxmasters said:
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@ariesxmasters said:
Interesting, though I didn't need that for me to know they made Goku much weaker than he actually is, and make Superman wayy stronger than he actually was as well. Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies while the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor. . . hmmm I wonder who wins.
B...b.b..but Goku never displayed destroying a solar syatem, a panet or even a moon. And Superman is way stronger and faster than Goku by feats.
I mean Im not impartial on who wins but I need proof of Goku doing things that out trump Superman by feats and not statments.
Yeah, and by feats Batman can knock Superman out of a building and make him bleed with a punch. Still wanna go by stupid feats lmao? By feats Superman can die from a regular nuke, by feats Superman can be knocked out by the shock waves alone from a exploding planet, let alone the actual explosion it'self. By feats Superman has trouble lifting a 300,000+ pound Helicarrier and he had the help of Wonder Woman on top of that. By feats Superman gets a headache from getting slammed on his head and punched a few times, by feats Batman can tag Superman more than once. A lot of times feats are as reliable as power levels, they aren't at all.
Thats nice you point out the low showings of Superman yes they are there there is no denying that 70+ of being around and damn near invincble will give any character low showings, even Goku. But my point isn't about low showings, its about Goku feats that put him up there with Superman. He is up there with Supes I just feel Supes has more advantages.
Like I was saying by feats what puts Goku above Superman (keep in mind that I am not lowballing Goku, I am just asking for his feats). Goku never traversed the galaxy at very high speeds or lifted the weight of the earth. Goku hasn't destroyed any planet, star, moon, or galaxy. Superman atleast towed a Battleworld and I think he destroyed a planet (pre crsis). SA Supes actually sneezed away a galaxy(but were not using him, becase he is insanly OPed). Superman IMO with his powers are more versitile than Goku, and although Goku is a better fighter h2h by feats Superman did train with Monguals son in fighting and knows Kryptoian fighting, so he is no sloch (again Goku is a better fighter). Superman is also vastly intellent and that does factor into the fight.
Again I will state I am not impartial to who wins and I am not looking to lowball Goku or any other Z warrior or character.
I am just looking facts are facts .Feats are greater than statments.
Superman has been shown by feats not statments to be faster, durable, versitil, smarter and stronger than Goku. Yes Goku is the better fighter by feats, but Superman has got him beat in way more areas.
The fact that low showing exist just proves that feats are very unreliable. There has never really been a instance where Goku has been in need of Traversing the galaxy at high speed since he has Instant transmission. Goku lifting the earth weight would add nothing to the story ,and Superman lifting the earth weight feat can easily be countered with that feat I mentioned earlier of him struggling to lift a Helicarrier while having the help of Wonder Woman. I don't think Superman has every moved the earth by himself even Pre-52. Silver Age Superman sneezing the Solar System away doesn't count since there is story context behind it. How is Superman more versatile than Goku let alone any other character from Dbz? Like this part isn't even debatable. New-52 Superman doesn't know any kind of fighting style.
So you know I am purely using Pre-Crsis Superman (SA is too OPed and retconned, and New 52 is still too new)
Low showings do not exist to prove feats are unrealiable. The low showings are there because writers need to craft a story (show some form of struggle for the hero), because if a hero is written to his/her fullest potiential there would be no story.
The point in me bring up how fast Superman goes and how strong he is is to show the difference in speed and strength between Superman and Goku. Your right Goku doesn't need to travase great distances or lift the earth but need spped and strenght feats that that put him on the level of Superman or Surpass him.
As for Superman moving earth I said war world (which is slightly smaller than earth but it is still close to a planet. And the SA Supes sneezing away a galaxy counts (it was a wacker time, crazy things could happen)
Superman is more versitile (by this I mean he has more options) for the fact that he cam move faster than light (some would say than thought), unmeasurable strength (challengers the living personification and god of strength himself Hercules), very very high intellegance and he has a slew of powers I will name a few: Heat vision hotter than the sun, freeze breath, invincibiliy, access to the IMP and he can vibrate to faze through objects and attacks. Also he does know kryptoinan fighting (again Goku is better a fighting though due to h2h feats)
Yeah and again Superman has also been shown by feats not statement to get tagged and made bleed by Batman. That plus Superman has 10,000+ Comic books and is the face of the company, Goku has 1 manga and a few movies of course Superman naturally has more feats to back him 10,000 is way more than 1 plus he is the face of DC. Superman all of those things you mentioned with Superman are inconsistent from his speed to his durability to his strength.
Again you keep bring up Batman and slower opponents compared to Superman tagging him. Look who Superman is fightng against weaker opponents. He has to be very carful not to break them, so he has to hold back a whole lot. And the only reason why slower opponents are able to do that is because Supes is holding back, becuae his character is not going to severly hurt any weaker person.
As for the Superman inconsistencies, he is a consistant character, he does display all of his feats when the time comes him to. The times when he has been inconsistant only is for the sake of the writer to craft a story, because he is a really really really hard person to beat and writers tend to screw Supes over, but he still retains all his feats.
Goku's writers confirms everything instead of putting pointless feats that don't mean anything. Like Goku destroying the earth or the Solar System would add nothing to the manga and would be pointless filler. Toriyama confirms how strong every character is and their destructive capabilities.
First of all the feats that Superman or anyother comic book hero pulls off means something, that attributes to the character capabilities. If he didn't have the feats then we wouldn't know where he would stand. If your character is stated to do something that is fine but like I said feats are greater than statments. Goku dosn't need to bust a galaxy as a feat to prove his power level (as you already state). It is still a featless statmentbut thats cool. So that tells me he would not bust a galaxy while fighting Superman (not that he could because Supes wouldn't allow it) and thats means Goku is going to have to rely on his speed, strenght, fighting and intellegance in the fight with Supes. However Superman still out trumps Goku in every area except fighting.
@ariesxmasters said:
@buttersdaman000 said:
@ariesxmasters said:
The fact that low showing exist just proves that feats are very unreliable.
If feats are so unreliable, the battle forums should just consist of votes to see who wins.
I didn't mean it like that. I just wish there was a better way to determine a characters power other than using feats. The battle forum does a lot of times turn into "Which character do you like more?" vs "Which character is stronger?"
But feats are better than speculation, power scaling, and character statements (unless backed up....which would then be a feat lol). The best way to determine a characters power really is by feats. But, you can't lowball one (comic) character and scratch your head when somebody does the same to DBZ.
There will never be any hope for this topic.
Nice try but comic vines hate for dbz is the stuff of legends.
People still view it as the cold war of the flame wars
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@ariesxmasters said:
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@ariesxmasters said:
Interesting, though I didn't need that for me to know they made Goku much weaker than he actually is, and make Superman wayy stronger than he actually was as well. Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies while the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor. . . hmmm I wonder who wins.
B...b.b..but Goku never displayed destroying a solar syatem, a panet or even a moon. And Superman is way stronger and faster than Goku by feats.
I mean Im not impartial on who wins but I need proof of Goku doing things that out trump Superman by feats and not statments.
Yeah, and by feats Batman can knock Superman out of a building and make him bleed with a punch. Still wanna go by stupid feats lmao? By feats Superman can die from a regular nuke, by feats Superman can be knocked out by the shock waves alone from a exploding planet, let alone the actual explosion it'self. By feats Superman has trouble lifting a 300,000+ pound Helicarrier and he had the help of Wonder Woman on top of that. By feats Superman gets a headache from getting slammed on his head and punched a few times, by feats Batman can tag Superman more than once. A lot of times feats are as reliable as power levels, they aren't at all.
Thats nice you point out the low showings of Superman yes they are there there is no denying that 70+ of being around and damn near invincble will give any character low showings, even Goku. But my point isn't about low showings, its about Goku feats that put him up there with Superman. He is up there with Supes I just feel Supes has more advantages.
Like I was saying by feats what puts Goku above Superman (keep in mind that I am not lowballing Goku, I am just asking for his feats). Goku never traversed the galaxy at very high speeds or lifted the weight of the earth. Goku hasn't destroyed any planet, star, moon, or galaxy. Superman atleast towed a Battleworld and I think he destroyed a planet (pre crsis). SA Supes actually sneezed away a galaxy(but were not using him, becase he is insanly OPed). Superman IMO with his powers are more versitile than Goku, and although Goku is a better fighter h2h by feats Superman did train with Monguals son in fighting and knows Kryptoian fighting, so he is no sloch (again Goku is a better fighter). Superman is also vastly intellent and that does factor into the fight.
Again I will state I am not impartial to who wins and I am not looking to lowball Goku or any other Z warrior or character.
I am just looking facts are facts .Feats are greater than statments.
Superman has been shown by feats not statments to be faster, durable, versitil, smarter and stronger than Goku. Yes Goku is the better fighter by feats, but Superman has got him beat in way more areas.
The fact that low showing exist just proves that feats are very unreliable. There has never really been a instance where Goku has been in need of Traversing the galaxy at high speed since he has Instant transmission. Goku lifting the earth weight would add nothing to the story ,and Superman lifting the earth weight feat can easily be countered with that feat I mentioned earlier of him struggling to lift a Helicarrier while having the help of Wonder Woman. I don't think Superman has every moved the earth by himself even Pre-52. Silver Age Superman sneezing the Solar System away doesn't count since there is story context behind it. How is Superman more versatile than Goku let alone any other character from Dbz? Like this part isn't even debatable. New-52 Superman doesn't know any kind of fighting style.
So you know I am purely using Pre-Crsis Superman (SA is too OPed and retconned, and New 52 is still too new)
Low showings do not exist to prove feats are unrealiable. The low showings are there because writers need to craft a story (show some form of struggle for the hero), because if a hero is written to his/her fullest potiential there would be no story.
The point in me bring up how fast Superman goes and how strong he is is to show the difference in speed and strength between Superman and Goku. Your right Goku doesn't need to travase great distances or lift the earth but need spped and strenght feats that that put him on the level of Superman or Surpass him.
As for Superman moving earth I said war world (which is slightly smaller than earth but it is still close to a planet. And the SA Supes sneezing away a galaxy counts (it was a wacker time, crazy things could happen)
Superman is more versitile (by this I mean he has more options) for the fact that he cam move faster than light (some would say than thought), unmeasurable strength (challengers the living personification and god of strength himself Hercules), very very high intellegance and he has a slew of powers I will name a few: Heat vision hotter than the sun, freeze breath, invincibiliy, access to the IMP and he can vibrate to faze through objects and attacks. Also he does know kryptoinan fighting (again Goku is better a fighting though due to h2h feats)
Yeah and again Superman has also been shown by feats not statement to get tagged and made bleed by Batman. That plus Superman has 10,000+ Comic books and is the face of the company, Goku has 1 manga and a few movies of course Superman naturally has more feats to back him 10,000 is way more than 1 plus he is the face of DC. Superman all of those things you mentioned with Superman are inconsistent from his speed to his durability to his strength.
Again you keep bring up Batman and slower opponents compared to Superman tagging him. Look who Superman is fightng against weaker opponents. He has to be very carful not to break them, so he has to hold back a whole lot. And the only reason why slower opponents are able to do that is because Supes is holding back, becuae his character is not going to severly hurt any weaker person.
As for the Superman inconsistencies, he is a consistant character, he does display all of his feats when the time comes him to. The times when he has been inconsistant only is for the sake of the writer to craft a story, because he is a really really really hard person to beat and writers tend to screw Supes over, but he still retains all his feats.
Goku's writers confirms everything instead of putting pointless feats that don't mean anything. Like Goku destroying the earth or the Solar System would add nothing to the manga and would be pointless filler. Toriyama confirms how strong every character is and their destructive capabilities.
First of all the feats that Superman or anyother comic book hero pulls off means something, that attributes to the character capabilities. If he didn't have the feats then we wouldn't know where he would stand. If your character is stated to do something that is fine but like I said feats are greater than statments. Goku dosn't need to bust a galaxy as a feat to prove his power level (as you already state). It is still a featless statmentbut thats cool. So that tells me he would not bust a galaxy while fighting Superman (not that he could because Supes wouldn't allow it) and thats means Goku is going to have to rely on his speed, strenght, fighting and intellegance in the fight with Supes. However Superman still out trumps Goku in every area except fighting.
I hate talking about Pre-Crisis Superman, because I know nothing about him for 1, and 2 I don't keep up, and read about him like I do for every issue New-52 Superman is in. So anyone can just randomly spam a bunch of out of context feats for Pre-Crisis Superman and I wouldn't know since I don't read about him.
Well what is a low showing is subjective. Regardless of why you feel low showing exist, they exist and thus them existing they make feats unreliable.
Superman speed and strength are so inconsistent it doesn't even really matter. He gets hit by guy who wish they could lay a finger on Goku, One moment he is benching the earth next minute he is struggling lifting a Helicarrier with help. That, and him being able to bench that much doesn't equate to his striking power.
SA Superman sneezing doesn't count since he only sneezed thanks to Mr.Mxy gas.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127815/2745231-77788_action273_thumb_super.jpg
First of all the feats that Superman or anyother comic book hero pulls off means something
What did Superman benching earth's weight add to the story?
Statements made by the writer of the character mean more than feats any day. Feats are inconsistent, contradict each other, fluctuate and are taken out of context all the time. The writer controls everything.
@ariesxmasters said:
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@ariesxmasters said:
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@ariesxmasters said:
Interesting, though I didn't need that for me to know they made Goku much weaker than he actually is, and make Superman wayy stronger than he actually was as well. Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies while the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor. . . hmmm I wonder who wins.
B...b.b..but Goku never displayed destroying a solar syatem, a panet or even a moon. And Superman is way stronger and faster than Goku by feats.
I mean Im not impartial on who wins but I need proof of Goku doing things that out trump Superman by feats and not statments.
Yeah, and by feats Batman can knock Superman out of a building and make him bleed with a punch. Still wanna go by stupid feats lmao? By feats Superman can die from a regular nuke, by feats Superman can be knocked out by the shock waves alone from a exploding planet, let alone the actual explosion it'self. By feats Superman has trouble lifting a 300,000+ pound Helicarrier and he had the help of Wonder Woman on top of that. By feats Superman gets a headache from getting slammed on his head and punched a few times, by feats Batman can tag Superman more than once. A lot of times feats are as reliable as power levels, they aren't at all.
Thats nice you point out the low showings of Superman yes they are there there is no denying that 70+ of being around and damn near invincble will give any character low showings, even Goku. But my point isn't about low showings, its about Goku feats that put him up there with Superman. He is up there with Supes I just feel Supes has more advantages.
Like I was saying by feats what puts Goku above Superman (keep in mind that I am not lowballing Goku, I am just asking for his feats). Goku never traversed the galaxy at very high speeds or lifted the weight of the earth. Goku hasn't destroyed any planet, star, moon, or galaxy. Superman atleast towed a Battleworld and I think he destroyed a planet (pre crsis). SA Supes actually sneezed away a galaxy(but were not using him, becase he is insanly OPed). Superman IMO with his powers are more versitile than Goku, and although Goku is a better fighter h2h by feats Superman did train with Monguals son in fighting and knows Kryptoian fighting, so he is no sloch (again Goku is a better fighter). Superman is also vastly intellent and that does factor into the fight.
Again I will state I am not impartial to who wins and I am not looking to lowball Goku or any other Z warrior or character.
I am just looking facts are facts .Feats are greater than statments.
Superman has been shown by feats not statments to be faster, durable, versitil, smarter and stronger than Goku. Yes Goku is the better fighter by feats, but Superman has got him beat in way more areas.
The fact that low showing exist just proves that feats are very unreliable. There has never really been a instance where Goku has been in need of Traversing the galaxy at high speed since he has Instant transmission. Goku lifting the earth weight would add nothing to the story ,and Superman lifting the earth weight feat can easily be countered with that feat I mentioned earlier of him struggling to lift a Helicarrier while having the help of Wonder Woman. I don't think Superman has every moved the earth by himself even Pre-52. Silver Age Superman sneezing the Solar System away doesn't count since there is story context behind it. How is Superman more versatile than Goku let alone any other character from Dbz? Like this part isn't even debatable. New-52 Superman doesn't know any kind of fighting style.
So you know I am purely using Pre-Crsis Superman (SA is too OPed and retconned, and New 52 is still too new)
Low showings do not exist to prove feats are unrealiable. The low showings are there because writers need to craft a story (show some form of struggle for the hero), because if a hero is written to his/her fullest potiential there would be no story.
The point in me bring up how fast Superman goes and how strong he is is to show the difference in speed and strength between Superman and Goku. Your right Goku doesn't need to travase great distances or lift the earth but need spped and strenght feats that that put him on the level of Superman or Surpass him.
As for Superman moving earth I said war world (which is slightly smaller than earth but it is still close to a planet. And the SA Supes sneezing away a galaxy counts (it was a wacker time, crazy things could happen)
Superman is more versitile (by this I mean he has more options) for the fact that he cam move faster than light (some would say than thought), unmeasurable strength (challengers the living personification and god of strength himself Hercules), very very high intellegance and he has a slew of powers I will name a few: Heat vision hotter than the sun, freeze breath, invincibiliy, access to the IMP and he can vibrate to faze through objects and attacks. Also he does know kryptoinan fighting (again Goku is better a fighting though due to h2h feats)
Yeah and again Superman has also been shown by feats not statement to get tagged and made bleed by Batman. That plus Superman has 10,000+ Comic books and is the face of the company, Goku has 1 manga and a few movies of course Superman naturally has more feats to back him 10,000 is way more than 1 plus he is the face of DC. Superman all of those things you mentioned with Superman are inconsistent from his speed to his durability to his strength.
Again you keep bring up Batman and slower opponents compared to Superman tagging him. Look who Superman is fightng against weaker opponents. He has to be very carful not to break them, so he has to hold back a whole lot. And the only reason why slower opponents are able to do that is because Supes is holding back, becuae his character is not going to severly hurt any weaker person.
As for the Superman inconsistencies, he is a consistant character, he does display all of his feats when the time comes him to. The times when he has been inconsistant only is for the sake of the writer to craft a story, because he is a really really really hard person to beat and writers tend to screw Supes over, but he still retains all his feats.
Goku's writers confirms everything instead of putting pointless feats that don't mean anything. Like Goku destroying the earth or the Solar System would add nothing to the manga and would be pointless filler. Toriyama confirms how strong every character is and their destructive capabilities.
First of all the feats that Superman or anyother comic book hero pulls off means something, that attributes to the character capabilities. If he didn't have the feats then we wouldn't know where he would stand. If your character is stated to do something that is fine but like I said feats are greater than statments. Goku dosn't need to bust a galaxy as a feat to prove his power level (as you already state). It is still a featless statmentbut thats cool. So that tells me he would not bust a galaxy while fighting Superman (not that he could because Supes wouldn't allow it) and thats means Goku is going to have to rely on his speed, strenght, fighting and intellegance in the fight with Supes. However Superman still out trumps Goku in every area except fighting.
I hate talking about Pre-Crisis Superman, because I know nothing about him for 1, and 2 I don't keep up, and read about him like I do for every issue New-52 Superman is in. So anyone can just randomly spam a bunch of out of context feats for Pre-Crisis Superman and I wouldn't know since I don't read about him.
When I say Pre-Crisis I mean the one before Final Crisis ended (Modern Age). Not the crazy insane SA Superman my bad if I didn't make that clear, so many crisis in DC, lol.
Well what is a low showing is subjective. Regardless of why you feel low showing exist, they exist and thus them existing they make feats unreliable.
True, I never tryed to dismiss the low showing, I was Just merely stating that the low showings are mainly to progress the story because Superman is too powerful to not lowball him in comics.
Superman speed and strength are so inconsistent it doesn't even really matter. He gets hit by guy who wish they could lay a finger on Goku, One moment he is benching the earth next minute he is struggling lifting a Helicarrier with help. That, and him being able to bench that much doesn't equate to his striking power.
Again Superman holds back, he isn't trying to kill. He needs to be careful on even some of his powerful villains so he doesn't kill him.
SA Superman sneezing doesn't count since he only sneezed thanks to Mr.Mxy gas.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127815/2745231-77788_action273_thumb_super.jpg
All Mr. Mixiziplxi did was put some sneezing powder around superman to make him sneeze. Supes even said that he traveled to a long dead galaxy becuase the sneeze was so powerful. I will say it coun't because all he did was try to mess with Superman and Superman had to stop him self from destroying the galaxy. We will just agree to disagree on SA Superman because we will just go around in circles over weither or not it counts as a feat for SA Supes.
First of all the feats that Superman or anyother comic book hero pulls off means something
What did Superman benching earth's weight add to the story?
It goes to show you how powerful he is, and how much power he is holding back from his enemies when he fights them. Thats all it shows. This is a New 52 showing (But I am using it to show even New 52 Supes isn't completely Useless compared to Goku)
Statements made by the writer of the character mean more than feats any day. Feats are inconsistent, contradict each other, fluctuate and are taken out of context all the time. The writer controls everything.
I never said the statments don't mean anything, but there has to be something behind it backing it up. For instance White Canary is stated to be better a better fighter than Lady Shiva, However none of White Canary's combat feats put her anywhere near Shiva in terms of combat. That is why I say feats are greater than statements. But you do make fair enough points regarding statements.
@buttersdaman000: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/intelligent-debate-about-feats-and-character-state-1654990/#43
Statements are just as good as feats
@midnightdragon18 said:
@buttersdaman000: http://www.comicvine.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/intelligent-debate-about-feats-and-character-state-1654990/#43
Statements are just as good as feats
I disagree. In the battle forums statements have to be backed up by feats or at least reasonable proof. If everything the author writes is viewed as unequivocal truth, regardless of whether the actual feats support or disprove it, you run into issues. Battle forums will just become debates of who can produce the single best scan, and not who can formulate the best argument based of consistent, actual showings. That's the point of the forum. I believe it's even in the rules. IMO, neither author or character statements mean jack if that same author doesn't even bother to write feats to support it.
Take Kevin Grevioux, the creator of Blue Marvel for example. The man claimed that he created Blue Marvel to be as or more powerful than Superman and Thor. He wrote the mini-series and even consulted on the character IIRC, and yet, BM still hasn't had one feat that puts him in league with Superman or Thor. Are we just supposed to ignore that and say BM>Superman and Thor simply because his creator and writer said so?
@i_am_lightning said:
Why Saren has to troll in every anime thread?
Because every great hero needs a villian.
@buttersdaman000: did you even read the thread ?
Writers don't care about feats
I mean how dumb would it be if vegeta cell buu all destroyed earth just to prove
Writers are interested in writing stories not pandering to battle forum nerds
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@ariesxmasters said:
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@ariesxmasters said:
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@lxlgiftedlxl said:
@ariesxmasters said:
Interesting, though I didn't need that for me to know they made Goku much weaker than he actually is, and make Superman wayy stronger than he actually was as well. Like I said one guy has the capabilities to wipe out Planets, Solar Systems and potentially Galaxies while the other has trouble taking on City level robots made by Lex Luthor. . . hmmm I wonder who wins.
B...b.b..but Goku never displayed destroying a solar syatem, a panet or even a moon. And Superman is way stronger and faster than Goku by feats.
I mean Im not impartial on who wins but I need proof of Goku doing things that out trump Superman by feats and not statments.
Yeah, and by feats Batman can knock Superman out of a building and make him bleed with a punch. Still wanna go by stupid feats lmao? By feats Superman can die from a regular nuke, by feats Superman can be knocked out by the shock waves alone from a exploding planet, let alone the actual explosion it'self. By feats Superman has trouble lifting a 300,000+ pound Helicarrier and he had the help of Wonder Woman on top of that. By feats Superman gets a headache from getting slammed on his head and punched a few times, by feats Batman can tag Superman more than once. A lot of times feats are as reliable as power levels, they aren't at all.
Thats nice you point out the low showings of Superman yes they are there there is no denying that 70+ of being around and damn near invincble will give any character low showings, even Goku. But my point isn't about low showings, its about Goku feats that put him up there with Superman. He is up there with Supes I just feel Supes has more advantages.
Like I was saying by feats what puts Goku above Superman (keep in mind that I am not lowballing Goku, I am just asking for his feats). Goku never traversed the galaxy at very high speeds or lifted the weight of the earth. Goku hasn't destroyed any planet, star, moon, or galaxy. Superman atleast towed a Battleworld and I think he destroyed a planet (pre crsis). SA Supes actually sneezed away a galaxy(but were not using him, becase he is insanly OPed). Superman IMO with his powers are more versitile than Goku, and although Goku is a better fighter h2h by feats Superman did train with Monguals son in fighting and knows Kryptoian fighting, so he is no sloch (again Goku is a better fighter). Superman is also vastly intellent and that does factor into the fight.
Again I will state I am not impartial to who wins and I am not looking to lowball Goku or any other Z warrior or character.
I am just looking facts are facts .Feats are greater than statments.
Superman has been shown by feats not statments to be faster, durable, versitil, smarter and stronger than Goku. Yes Goku is the better fighter by feats, but Superman has got him beat in way more areas.
The fact that low showing exist just proves that feats are very unreliable. There has never really been a instance where Goku has been in need of Traversing the galaxy at high speed since he has Instant transmission. Goku lifting the earth weight would add nothing to the story ,and Superman lifting the earth weight feat can easily be countered with that feat I mentioned earlier of him struggling to lift a Helicarrier while having the help of Wonder Woman. I don't think Superman has every moved the earth by himself even Pre-52. Silver Age Superman sneezing the Solar System away doesn't count since there is story context behind it. How is Superman more versatile than Goku let alone any other character from Dbz? Like this part isn't even debatable. New-52 Superman doesn't know any kind of fighting style.
So you know I am purely using Pre-Crsis Superman (SA is too OPed and retconned, and New 52 is still too new)
Low showings do not exist to prove feats are unrealiable. The low showings are there because writers need to craft a story (show some form of struggle for the hero), because if a hero is written to his/her fullest potiential there would be no story.
The point in me bring up how fast Superman goes and how strong he is is to show the difference in speed and strength between Superman and Goku. Your right Goku doesn't need to travase great distances or lift the earth but need spped and strenght feats that that put him on the level of Superman or Surpass him.
As for Superman moving earth I said war world (which is slightly smaller than earth but it is still close to a planet. And the SA Supes sneezing away a galaxy counts (it was a wacker time, crazy things could happen)
Superman is more versitile (by this I mean he has more options) for the fact that he cam move faster than light (some would say than thought), unmeasurable strength (challengers the living personification and god of strength himself Hercules), very very high intellegance and he has a slew of powers I will name a few: Heat vision hotter than the sun, freeze breath, invincibiliy, access to the IMP and he can vibrate to faze through objects and attacks. Also he does know kryptoinan fighting (again Goku is better a fighting though due to h2h feats)
Yeah and again Superman has also been shown by feats not statement to get tagged and made bleed by Batman. That plus Superman has 10,000+ Comic books and is the face of the company, Goku has 1 manga and a few movies of course Superman naturally has more feats to back him 10,000 is way more than 1 plus he is the face of DC. Superman all of those things you mentioned with Superman are inconsistent from his speed to his durability to his strength.
Again you keep bring up Batman and slower opponents compared to Superman tagging him. Look who Superman is fightng against weaker opponents. He has to be very carful not to break them, so he has to hold back a whole lot. And the only reason why slower opponents are able to do that is because Supes is holding back, becuae his character is not going to severly hurt any weaker person.
As for the Superman inconsistencies, he is a consistant character, he does display all of his feats when the time comes him to. The times when he has been inconsistant only is for the sake of the writer to craft a story, because he is a really really really hard person to beat and writers tend to screw Supes over, but he still retains all his feats.
Goku's writers confirms everything instead of putting pointless feats that don't mean anything. Like Goku destroying the earth or the Solar System would add nothing to the manga and would be pointless filler. Toriyama confirms how strong every character is and their destructive capabilities.
First of all the feats that Superman or anyother comic book hero pulls off means something, that attributes to the character capabilities. If he didn't have the feats then we wouldn't know where he would stand. If your character is stated to do something that is fine but like I said feats are greater than statments. Goku dosn't need to bust a galaxy as a feat to prove his power level (as you already state). It is still a featless statmentbut thats cool. So that tells me he would not bust a galaxy while fighting Superman (not that he could because Supes wouldn't allow it) and thats means Goku is going to have to rely on his speed, strenght, fighting and intellegance in the fight with Supes. However Superman still out trumps Goku in every area except fighting.
I hate talking about Pre-Crisis Superman, because I know nothing about him for 1, and 2 I don't keep up, and read about him like I do for every issue New-52 Superman is in. So anyone can just randomly spam a bunch of out of context feats for Pre-Crisis Superman and I wouldn't know since I don't read about him.
When I say Pre-Crisis I mean the one before Final Crisis ended (Modern Age). Not the crazy insane SA Superman my bad if I didn't make that clear, so many crisis in DC, lol.
Well what is a low showing is subjective. Regardless of why you feel low showing exist, they exist and thus them existing they make feats unreliable.
True, I never tryed to dismiss the low showing, I was Just merely stating that the low showings are mainly to progress the story because Superman is too powerful to not lowball him in comics.
Superman speed and strength are so inconsistent it doesn't even really matter. He gets hit by guy who wish they could lay a finger on Goku, One moment he is benching the earth next minute he is struggling lifting a Helicarrier with help. That, and him being able to bench that much doesn't equate to his striking power.
Again Superman holds back, he isn't trying to kill. He needs to be careful on even some of his powerful villains so he doesn't kill him.
SA Superman sneezing doesn't count since he only sneezed thanks to Mr.Mxy gas.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/127815/2745231-77788_action273_thumb_super.jpg
All Mr. Mixiziplxi did was put some sneezing powder around superman to make him sneeze. Supes even said that he traveled to a long dead galaxy becuase the sneeze was so powerful. I will say it coun't because all he did was try to mess with Superman and Superman had to stop him self from destroying the galaxy. We will just agree to disagree on SA Superman because we will just go around in circles over weither or not it counts as a feat for SA Supes.
First of all the feats that Superman or anyother comic book hero pulls off means something
What did Superman benching earth's weight add to the story?
It goes to show you how powerful he is, and how much power he is holding back from his enemies when he fights them. Thats all it shows. This is a New 52 showing (But I am using it to show even New 52 Supes isn't completely Useless compared to Goku)
Statements made by the writer of the character mean more than feats any day. Feats are inconsistent, contradict each other, fluctuate and are taken out of context all the time. The writer controls everything.
I never said the statments don't mean anything, but there has to be something behind it backing it up. For instance White Canary is stated to be better a better fighter than Lady Shiva, However none of White Canary's combat feats put her anywhere near Shiva in terms of combat. That is why I say feats are greater than statements. But you do make fair enough points regarding statements.
Whether low showing are made to progress the story or not the fact of the matter is they happen, and shouldn't be swept under the rug just because people don't like them. What is for the plot, and what the character is actually capable of is very subjective depending on someone feelings on the character. Like people feel like whenever Thor or Hulk hit someone who is FTL some people think it is for the plot and some don't. Just like when Superman is able to travel from Pluto to earth in half a seconds I don't consider that a legit feat I consider that the plot, because he has to move from planet to planet fast to progress the story or else the comic would be nothing but him in space all day and night traveling. Like Superman benching the earth some people could call BS on that since in the New-52 he hasn't shown to be able to lift anywhere near that weight, and like I said earlier he was in fact struggling to lift something wayyyy less while having the help of Wonder Woman, but since people like Superman a lot that feat counts.
I mean if White Canary is said to be superior in H2H combat than Shiva then it should count. The problem on here with everyone is they swear something has to be shown for the character to have the capability to do it even if it is common sense that the character can do it. I mean Thanos doesn't have any police pepper spray resistant feats to suggest it won't work on him, but 2/100 brain cells and common sense will can tell you it obviously won't affect him.
@midnightdragon18 said:
@buttersdaman000: did you even read the thread ?
Writers don't care about feats
I mean how dumb would it be if vegeta cell buu all destroyed earth just to prove
Writers are interested in writing stories not pandering to battle forum nerds
Yes, I read the thread. I don't think you understand the meaning of the battle forums. It doesn't matter what the writer does or doesn't care about. On the battle forums we research, interpret, and argue for the characters they write using objective, logical reasoning. That's all there is to it. You're pretty much saying that if the author didn't intend for debate, debate is useless and that's just not true. If you don't like the battle forums, just stay away from them.
@ssjbatdan said:
http://www.screwattack.com/news/death-battle-erred-goku-vs-superman
I mean yea, but no... Superman would still beat Goku based on feats. As far as actually beating him, the world may never know.
@ssjbatdan said:
@sinntek1: C'mon dude, most people know you're a troll who doesn't know anything in-depth about DBZ.
Wow you really are a prick...
According to my youtube history and manga subscription, I'd beg to differ. But it's ok, be a fan boy.
@ssjbatdan said:
@sinntek1 said:
@ssjbatdan said:
@sinntek1: C'mon dude, most people know you're a troll who doesn't know anything in-depth about DBZ.
Wow you really are a prick...
According to my youtube history and manga subscription, I'd beg to differ. But it's ok, be a fan boy.
I'm the prick, when you literally trolled a thread saying 18 was wished human during the Buu saga? Ok then. No, all your b/s has convinced me that not a word you say can be trusted.
"Fan boy" eh? When, being the huge DBZ fan I am, I stood up for the Death Battle outcome on many forums, because I also know a fair bit about Superman, but I never did such an in-depth analysis as that. At face value, Superman seems to win, but when you really look into it, it makes sense.
As a kid, I always thought Goku was far stronger, then pricks like you have to go and undermine the series. Turns out my intuition was just about spot on with how strong he is. The story builds it up in that way, and if you pay attention, with an open mind and some imagination, you can easily see it, too. The numbers are just proof.
Yep 100% trolled a thread with information directly from wiki and comicvine. Oh snap. I'm so godly at trolling, I even used factual information! Oh my! Have a nice night broseph. :).
@ssjbatdan said:
@sinntek1: You didn't post any citation, you just gave the episode number and name, which is an episode from the Cell Saga. You didn't even bother to look into it, and still maintain that your wrong information is right. If you're not a troll, you're a fool.
Still made the wish. Maybe you should watch the episode dill pickle mc cheese sauce.
@ssjbatdan said:
@midnightdragon18: @nighthunder:
@buttersdaman000 said:
I agree that DeathBattle screwed their logic up for both characters, but I don't disagree on the outcome. Anyways, that users article is filled with the typical lapses in argument and logic that usually go along with most DBZ debates.....and,
I thought so too, at first. Because I care a lot about the truth, I read it thoroughly and unless you can disprove the numbers there, it checks out. Manga Goku loses, while composite wins.
Everyone, accept those who haven't, as made obvious by this thread. -.- Please control yourself a little.
Well, the calcs were all based on feats.
Which part was towards me?
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