Don't just arm Ukraine- ask the ICC to indict Putin on charges of waging" aggressive war"!

It now seems that the incoming US Defence Carter Ashton Carter will advise the Obama Administration to arm Ukraine.

In my view this a good idea but just doesn't go far enough- what Ukraine needs to be advised to do is to not just sign up to the International Criminal Court(as the PA did in January) but to ask the Court to investigate and if need be indict Vladimir Putin and his senior henchmen on charges of waging "aggressive war" again it. The prospect of being pursued for the rest of their lives and possibly ending up in the dock at the Hague based court should give pause to the "little green men" in Ukraine( who re widely regarded as official Russian troops- with the exception of Putin's "understanders"- read "useful idiots" in the West such as Lindsey German of the Stop The War Coalition, husband and wife Stephen Cohen and Katrina van den Heuvel on the Left, or paleoconservative Pat Buchanan, UKIP leader Nigel Farage on the Right, or columnist Mary Dejevsky whom I am not certain is on either side.)

My fellow countryman Dr Johnson once observed"that when a man knows he will be hanged in a fortnight it concentrates his mind beautifully"- the prospect of becoming a virtual pariah( like Sudanese President Omar al Bashir) should concentrate if not Putin's- then at least the minds of his supporters- wonderfully.

Anybody think as I do? After all if it's good enough to advocate George W.Bush and Tony Blair's prosecution by the ICC for their "regime change in Iraq" then why not Vladimir Putin???

Terry

Yes, its our job to police and govern the world

I think Putin is within his right to defend the lives of Russian speaking people on the other side of his border. Kiev is not the goody two shoes gov't the west is portraying it as and Washington has been trying to get a pro west gov't in place there for decades.

Nobodys' asking "us" (the West )to police or govern the world- I am merely suggesting what Ukraine could do - as Winston Churchill put it during WWII- "give us the tools and we will finish the job!"

Terry

@spambot: You mean to say that a country has the right to attack another because of a shared language and previous history? I don't want to misunderstand you.

@ms-lola: no. I am saying that Poroshenko's army has been slaughtering people who identify more with being Russian than Ukrainian and that is one of the reasons Putin is sending troops in or arming rebels. You may not agree with me on this but I do think that's what's been going on to some degree. If you recall the Ukrainian troops did set fire to a building that had over 100 people in it who's only crime was marching in a protest. They also barricaded them in so they couldn't get out. There is much propaganda being put out on both sides of this conflict but hopefully something good comes out of the talks scheduled to happen next week.

This is similar to padding up two kids as equally as possible before throwing them in the ring. How about taking aside the kid who wants to fight in the first place and place him in the corner to cool off? Russia has no right sending in any troops into the Ukraine, nor shoring up rebels with weaponry and soldiers. Having this drag on is wrong, on an international level. The US stating they will help arm the Ukraine is just another level up in the chess game. I'm not saying they won't, it's not a bluff, but it will certainly make Putin take notice that economic sanctions aren't the only tool in the rest of the world's shed.

Enough already. Tell the bully to get out of the Ukraine.

@spambot: The Ukraine is its own country. No side is ever innocent when it comes to civil unrest but Russia sending in troops to shore up rebels was a blatant act of war. How can it be anything, otherwise?

@ms-lola: I think in Putin's mind he is trying to save the lives of people who want to be Russians from being slaughtered. The us intervenes in other countries on that basis all the time. Calling it war is just a matter of statecraft. You also have to factor in that the rebels already want to be part of Russia and I believe also held a vote in which they voted to secede. So its not really a matter of black and white no matter how we want to portray it. Just as Ukraine blew up Russia's major gas pipeline shortly after the coup and blamed it on 'sabotage'. That could also be seen as an act of war against Russia. As I said already, hopefully a peaceful resolution is reached soon.

@spambot: You use words like slaughter and propaganda which to me are calling cards of obfuscation. I don't mean to turn this into a back and forth of different stories and claims and confirmed reports of atrocities committed by both sides, that serves nothing. However, if Russia felt the rebels in the Ukraine were suffering, as a member of the UN, he was more than welcome to approach the rest of the members and help the people in the Ukraine who felt they were being oppressed. He didn't. He just went ahead and dressed a bunch of soldiers in black and sent them into another country with tanks. This is the reality.

I do agree about hoping for a peaceful resolution. Sitting here is easy enough for me to do while typing off what is most likely a grossly uninformed opinion about this conflict.

@ms-lola: I think we have differing views on what exactly the reality of what is going on and has been going on in Ukraine since the coup has been. So therefore we will never agree on Putin's actions since then. I use words like slaughter and propaganda because I feel both are very accurate to portray what has been going on over there as well as how its been portrayed in us/western media. International politics is always a chessboard where most of the moves don't happen in plain view of regular citizens. I think some facts may come out soon which even prove the degree that this whole conflict was planned out long ahead of time and been used to advance selfish agendas.

First of all who attacked who?- the "little green men"(as NATO calls them) are demonstratably official Russian troops and whilst the East of Ukraine may be culturally akin to Russia( having dwelt under the Czars for centuries as well as the Soviets ), this does NOT make them citizens of the Russian Federation(any more than Mexican or Irish Americans are Mexican or Irish citizens).

Ukraine has the right to determine its own future(and if this means joining the EU or even NATO) then so be it! it never fails to astonish me that people who would(justly) ridicule any claim that the nations of South and Central America must toe Uncle Sam's line due to the so-called "Monroe Doctrine" insist on repeating Putinesque blather about Ukraine falling into the Russian"sphere of influence"! Wake up and smell the borscht boys, Yalta was a long time ago!

Terry

I'm certainly not one for supporting the tyrant that Putin is but arming Ukraine is going to create more tensions in Eastern Europe and escalate the fighting between Pro Russian rebels and the Ukraine army. If the West arms Ukraine, Putin sends more of his army and resources to protect his new territory. Ugh this really is starting to seem reminiscent of the Cold War days and I thought those were behind humanity.

In what way do you think Putin would ever give a crap about what the ICC says? You think if they rule against him, he's going to step down and go stand in a corner?

I'm sure there are gay people in Russia who speak English. Does the U.S. have the right to defend them via invasion of Russia?

Source, please.

What is the equivalent of placing Russia in a corner in this situation? The international community has already condemned Russia's invasion or Ukraine.

1. The United States invading other countries to sort out their affairs is wrong.

2. The Crimean referendum to secede from Ukraine and into Russia was done after Russia had invaded Crimea. If someone broke into your home with guns pointing at you, the police were called, and then you came to the door and said, "No, no, I totally wanted these people to invade my house! Ignore the fact that I have a gun pointed towards my back! Nothing shady is happening here!" I think the police would have reason to suspect coercion.

@batwatch: proof of the fire which I thought was already common knowledge: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-odessa-building-fire

The vote of succession I was referring to was one done in western Ukraine, not Crimea. I am not some big pro Russian guy either, I simply don't agree with the view you usually see being portrayed by the us media, Washington and Kiev. I don't pretend to agree with everything Putin does on this issue or other issues either. I am simply voicing my own opinions on the matter based upon what I've read from a variety of sources.

Thanks for the source. I hadn't heard that one. According to the article, it was pro-Ukrainian protestors and not actually Ukrainian troops that led the attack, but still, that's clearly a bad action of Ukrainians.

Do you have a source for Western Ukraine voting to become part of Russia? Google is just showing me results on the post-invasion resolution.

@batwatch: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/13/world/europe/ukraine.html?_r=0

I think it is disputed whether there were actual Ukrainian troops at the fire. Some who were there claim it was Ukrainian troops dressed in all black with ak-47s and have shown pictures.

The prospect of becoming a virtual pariah amongst world leaders is at least a debatable threat for him-no addressing the UN General Assembly , no G-8- and I think it should be at least seriously looked into- a policy of calculated inaction is the worst of possible worlds AS WE SAW WITH THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA DURING THE 1990s. Further more, after Ukraine signs and ratifies the ICC Convention, Russian troops and their superiors should be made aware( by leaflets, Internet, sateelite TV broadcasts all forms of media) that they risk indictment and prosecution as war criminals/crimes against humanity(true, as we saw with Lugovoi, the RF Constitution precludes extradition of their citizens, but they have to come out to the West if only to enjoy the fleshpots from time to time and when they do they can be "Pinochet'd"!

Terry

Everyone standing up, and not just behind the United States. The German leader has been fantastic and I applaud her efforts but if nothing comes out of what she's trying to do, then countries like England, Italy, France and even more importantly, Eastern European countries should say something. I know Canada is making noise but we're too tiny to make a real difference on the world stage, no one notices us.

In conclusion(in the light ofn the recently announced ceasefire between Ukrainian forces and the "rebels" who are gnerally accepted to be official Russian forces), I am of the considered opinion that moves by Ukraine to refer the matter to the ICC would have had a salutary effect if not on Putin then at least those around him. He could hardly tar the Court as "fascist" or an "organ of American imperialism" and the propsect of spending the rest of their days either being hunted on charges of war crimes or sitting in a dock at the Hague is a chastening one(there are no statute of limitations for war crimes or crimes against humanity). Russia's GNP is no bigger than Italy's- it has a relatively small and declining population- 150 million-and esp since the sanctions were announced last year, it has become an economic basket case!

Terry

@ms-lola: their are no Russian army in Ukraine, otherwise the civil war for Ukraine will be long over. Sure their are a lot of voluntaries and perhaps some our military specialists, but no russian army, you are deluded. Or, and by the way, you really should look at what the militia troops found in Debalcevo after that city was liberated. Do you know what it is?)

@rubear said:

@ms-lola: their are no Russian army in Ukraine, otherwise the civil war for Ukraine will be long over. Sure their are a lot of voluntaries and perhaps some our military specialists, but no russian army, you are deluded. Or, and by the way, you really should look at what the militia troops found in Debalcevo after that city was liberated. Do you know what it is?)

Yes. Volunteers. Volunteers who when killed, get sent home and receive burials that befit a soldier who dies through war, and yes, military specialists who are just "volunteering". And hey, look at that? A flag what says US Marines? That's just like, the best evidence ever. Those evil Americans, eh? It's almost as if THEY might be volunteering, and you know, sending THEIR military specialists because they are helpful like that. Because, according to you, that is A-O-K.

What about that lovely Ukrainian pilot that's been held as a prisoner of war? Why is that? Oh, because she was caught where exactly? Maybe SHE was volunteering. (shrug) It's possible. Guess we're going to have to ask her. If we can, because, you know, stuff might get in the way like her being on a hunger strike in being held captive at all. Fingers crossed she'll make it through and clear up this whole misunderstanding.

My condolences to your country for the loss of a wonderful citizen this past week. May the memory of Boris Nemtsov last long and continue to show the rest of the world who the Russian people really are.

@ms-lola: Lol. Boris Nemtsov was one of the most despised politics in Russia just like other politics who participated in dismantling of our country in 90-th. For example we call our former president Gorbachev Marked One and Judas - like the traitor form Bible. Boris was politically dead long before he actually get dead. Useless. So he was killed and after that his death was used for propaganda. Ho killed him? Well, i suppose you can ask some people in Kiev or mr. John Francis Tefft, your own ambassador on Moscow, who was ambassador in Lithuania, in Georgia and on Ukraine. One can suspect that he is your specialist for some nasty jobs)

Yeah, that's a flag with US Marines. It's not the ideal evidience, but it is evidience and what you can give? Photos from 8-day war with Gruzia-Georgia or with some tank?) You know, russian and ukrainian tech is virtually indistinguisgable because it consists of the same models - of course ukrainian armour is little older. You argument about "they might be volunteering" works double-edged after takeover in Kiev that was orchestrated by oligarchs and onUSA money, ask ms. Nuland. If you moved a pierce and send some people in country on other side of world why we should not moved a pierce and send some people (military specialists) and humanitarian help in country that have borders with us to help people who are our friends? Much of us have relatives in Ukraine. So much, that one can say that Ukraine and us are like FRG and GDR - divided parts of one country, divided people of one nation. Some ukrainian bureaucrat even want to build a wall to divide us - like Berlin's Wall, but bigger. About proper burial for volunteers - of course we are giving them that. After all they are fighting to save innocent lives from neonazis, just as our grandgrandfathers fought agains Hitler's hordes.

And about that so much "lovely" pilot - she get cought in Rostov and before that paticipated in harming of our citizens (journalists). What she was doing in Rostov is othe question - maibe she tried to found some legitime president who run here after the takeover, hm? I suppose that our investigators already asked that qustion and maby others and found her guilty. About hunger strike... you'e deluded. In reality she is not on hunger strike - perhaps on little diet, yes, but that's only good for her figure)

@rubear: I'm Canadian.

@ms-lola: how much it's actually changing?) From what i heard politically you are going where USA is pointing.

We can't agitate Russia like that. Russia isn't some little Middle Eastern Country. They are just as powerful as we are, fully armed with WMD's. I say we just give them a harsh warning, and perhaps cut them off from trade for a while. A direct act of aggression could mean something a lot worse than losing some of Ukraine.

Ok.. i assume you were only fed with information the western media gives... Do you know what was Ukraines response to all this? Bombing civilians. 10% of their parliament was a neonazi party. And in all honesty i see no way the Crimea is any different than Kosovo... If you admit Kosovo's right to segregate then you HAVE to do the same for Crimea.

Better than following Russia.

And that's all you can tell me? Please. Stop mccaining youself, it's must be really embarassing)
We are not some evil and bloodthirsty war bears from frozen hell, just waiting chance to stomp all democracy in the world, we are people just like you, but with other moral compas, and we prefer to decide what to do in the world for ourselfs, not to dance under the pipe from Oval Cabinet of White House.

@rubear: Okay.

Dan Carlin had a good podcast about this topic. I believe he suggested we give them a nuclear deterrent in order to discourage war.

Ok.

Everyone just mind your business. Unless Putin invades Estonia, no one is going to challenge the "Democratically" elected leadership of a nuclear state.

Unless the Russia people willing say no more to Putin, Putin isn't going to face any action from the world.

Right now, Putin is the crying baby in the movie theater: everyone would like to shut him up, but everyone knows that it's not as easy as it seems.

That being said, if he foolishly took the fight to Estonia, a much smaller country with a NATO membership, he loses his advantage of playing coy about Russia troops.

NATO will intervene if he intervenes like he intervened in Crimea. In a heads up fight, close quarters, Russia stands no chance.