Do we need a God?

@Strider92 said:

@MasterJohn said:

@Strider92 said:

@MasterJohn said:

If there never was a God..Mankind has no soul or spirit.......If there never was a God, there's no purpose to the Universe-if you're and atheist..If there never was a God..The U.N. could pass genocide acts..If there never was a God, morale anarchy would be the expected state of things..Morale anarchy, whatever pleases the Government-would also be good for you even if it's NOT, that is "Atheism" in a nutshell

So your saying that Atheists are potential Genocidalists that are devoid of morals? -.o

The U.S.S.R's religion was State Atheism. Stalin was an Atheist. Mao, Lenin, Hitler, were all Atheists, enemies of the Catholic Church and the Religion of Christianity. So basically, yes, that's what I am saying.

An yet millions of people were slaughtered during the Holy Crusades and by the Spanish Inquisition. How is that any different?

I am Atheist. I don't believe in any type of creator but I have never (nor would I ever) accuse Christian's, Muslims, Buddhists etc... of being Genocidal people who are devoid of emotion. Seems kinda narrow minded to condemn a whole belief simply because of a few select people in the past have done wrong with it.

Franco, Torquemada and Justinian all killed hundreds of people in the name of Christianity and many many more have been killed in the past due to Christianity, Catholicism, Protestant etc... but do I blame the religion for that? No I blame the madmen and individuals responsible not condemn an entire way of believing/thinking for the acts of a select few sick individuals. I wouldn't judge you on the fact that these men share your religion and slaughtered lots of people so why are you judging me on the fact that people like Lenin happen to also share my belief?

Those crusades happened in the 15th and 14th centuries. Do you really think a Christian nation today would crusade people? No. Do you think something like WW2 could happen again? Yes. Why? Power and Greed. Let's focus on the wars of this century, and not of hundreads of years ago.

@MasterJohn said:

Those crusades happened in the 15th and 14th centuries. Do you really think a Christian nation today would crusade people? No. Do you think something like WW2 could happen again? Yes. Why? Power and Greed. Let's focus on the wars of this century, and not of hundreads of years ago.

My point still stands. Whether Christian, Atheist, Protestant etc.... doesn't change anything. You said it yourself power and greed corrupts your beliefs change nothing. Oh and Franco was during the Spanish Civil war and World War II so that wasn't hundreds of years ago.

@DoomDoomDoom said:

@MasterJohn said:

@Strider92 said:

@MasterJohn said:

If there never was a God..Mankind has no soul or spirit.......If there never was a God, there's no purpose to the Universe-if you're and atheist..If there never was a God..The U.N. could pass genocide acts..If there never was a God, morale anarchy would be the expected state of things..Morale anarchy, whatever pleases the Government-would also be good for you even if it's NOT, that is "Atheism" in a nutshell

So your saying that Atheists are potential Genocidalists that are devoid of morals? -.o

The U.S.S.R's religion was State Atheism. Stalin was an Atheist. Mao, Lenin, Hitler, were all Atheists, enemies of the Catholic Church and the Religion of Christianity. So basically, yes, that's what I am saying.

Saying Hitler was an atheist is simply avoiding some of the facts. I'm not saying he's a christian or an atheist, because we just don't know and it is a subject of contention.

"feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian, I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice"

This is part of a speech given by Hitler in 1922. He sounds a lot like a christian here to me.

Oh really? The qoutes you were about to read were backed up by sources in Hitler's journal, and on this website.

http://answers.org/apologetics/hitquote.html

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

I think I've made my point, he was an atheist, or just anti-christian.

@Strider92 said:

@MasterJohn said:

Those crusades happened in the 15th and 14th centuries. Do you really think a Christian nation today would crusade people? No. Do you think something like WW2 could happen again? Yes. Why? Power and Greed. Let's focus on the wars of this century, and not of hundreads of years ago.

My point still stands. Whether Christian, Atheist, Protestant etc.... doesn't change anything. You said it yourself power and greed corrupts your beliefs change nothing. Oh and Franco was during the Spanish Civil war and World War II so that wasn't hundreds of years ago.

Ah but was it a Religious war or a war for Power and greed? A war for power and greed. And a war for a independent spain. Nothing religious about it.

@MasterJohn: I think your missing the point that it is somewhat arrogant to think all atheist are potentially genocidal because a handful were. Your basing your opinion on a multitude of people off of a handful. It's like saying all christians are murderers because Anders Breivik was a christian...It doesn't make sense.

@MasterJohn said:

Ah but was it a Religious war or a war for Power and greed? A war for power and greed. And a war for a independent spain. Nothing religious about it.

Neither was Hitler's or Lenin's directly. Granted Hitler's original agenda was against the Jewish community but soon it evolved far beyond that. By the end of WW2 it was no longer affiliated with religion at all simply a madman trying to accomplish a goal.

@MasterJohn said:

@DoomDoomDoom said:

@MasterJohn said:

@Strider92 said:

@MasterJohn said:

If there never was a God..Mankind has no soul or spirit.......If there never was a God, there's no purpose to the Universe-if you're and atheist..If there never was a God..The U.N. could pass genocide acts..If there never was a God, morale anarchy would be the expected state of things..Morale anarchy, whatever pleases the Government-would also be good for you even if it's NOT, that is "Atheism" in a nutshell

So your saying that Atheists are potential Genocidalists that are devoid of morals? -.o

The U.S.S.R's religion was State Atheism. Stalin was an Atheist. Mao, Lenin, Hitler, were all Atheists, enemies of the Catholic Church and the Religion of Christianity. So basically, yes, that's what I am saying.

Saying Hitler was an atheist is simply avoiding some of the facts. I'm not saying he's a christian or an atheist, because we just don't know and it is a subject of contention.

"feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian, I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice"

This is part of a speech given by Hitler in 1922. He sounds a lot like a christian here to me.

Oh really? The qoutes you were about to read were backed up by sources in Hitler's journal, and on this website.

http://answers.org/apologetics/hitquote.html

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

I think I've made my point, he was an atheist, or just anti-christian.

You've made no point other than that Hitler has contradicted himself multiple times on what he believes. Again I'm not saying he is one or the other because in his life time he seems to have been both. Also on your use of the table-talks as being a definitive answer I would direct you here where they point out some of the problems with that.

Physcially? NO. But Spiritually yes. I believe that decision of what is good and what is bad, can only come from an all powerful, all knowing being, because he would know every aspect of life, and how to rightly judge each aspect, and will have the power to carry out the correct judgement. If God doesn't exist, good and evil doesn't exist and if Good and Evil doesn't exist then human beings should be able to do whatever they want and how ever they want. "Survival of the fittest"

I am an atheist, but it pains me to be. I don't know if anyone else feels the same way, but not only do absolutely not believe, I wish that I could. There is a bitterness to to it, having no comforting notion of an afterlife, and no reassurance that no matter what happens, somebody up there loves you.

For this reason, although I am against organized religion, I would never ridicule someone else's faith. If it brings somebody comfort, then there is nothing big or clever about belittling that, or trying to take it away.

@BumpyBoo said:

I am an atheist, but it pains me to be. I don't know if anyone else feels the same way, but not only do absolutely not believe, I wish that I could. There is a bitterness to to it, having no comforting notion of an afterlife, and no reassurance that no matter what happens, somebody up there loves you.

For this reason, although I am against organized religion, I would never ridicule someone else's faith. If it brings somebody comfort, then there is nothing big or clever about belittling that, or trying to take it away.

I use to feel exactly the same way, wishing I could turn off my brain in some manner and believe in god(not saying that your brain has to be off to believe in god). I've kinda gotten over it though in the last few years though. I find it authenticating that I have only one life to live and refreshing that I can decide the purpose of my life.

I agree with you too, belittling someone based on their beliefs or lack thereof is just...petty. I would defend and atheist being unfairly attacked by a christian just as I would if it were an atheist unfairly attacking a christian.

@DoomDoomDoom I couldn't have said it better :D I suppose the trick then is to believe in yourself as the higher power that guides you

@BumpyBoo said:

@DoomDoomDoom I couldn't have said it better :D I suppose the trick then is to believe in yourself as the higher power that guides you

Not necessarily, you don't have to be a higher power to provide guidance in your own life. I don't see myself as a god of any sort just the master of my own life. I don't control the world, just my reaction to it.

@DoomDoomDoom Oh no, I didn't mean it like that :) I meant in terms of taking control of your life - to the extent that any one of us can, anyway

@BumpyBoo: Oh gotcha, then yes. lol.

Yes we have a God and need one... God can help us through our troubles and bad times.

Sometimes when you have nothing else going for you, faith is the only thing you can turn to, to some, it's reassuring to have a god to depend on when your life is going downhill.

YES YES YES YES YES d^_^b

If you're referring to God as something we need to explain the universe. God as an explanation is not simple, it's complex and just introduces more problems and just gives us an excuse to do what you're doing and throw up our hands and say "I don't understand it" but pretend we do. Maybe the explanations might not be as simple as you want but fundamentally they are still very simple to explain and don't require any kind of supernatural belief.

Sticking to the original intent of this thread, I would say "need" is much too subjective to have an answer that could incorporate the "we." Some need guidance, some need answers to the unknown, some need the comfort of every-lasting life and some need reason for the chaos life can feel at times. Others, no to all the above.

I do not need a god and its my opinion the world is not in need of a god (or gods) to sustain life or give reason for it. If a belief in god gets you through a particularly hard time in your life, then have at it. But as a collective species, no, we do not "need" a god. Its a deeply intimate condition when it comes to someone feeling they are in need and therefore, individualistically determined.

Deepends on the person, some men just need to feel that there is something up there looking for us.

I don't... But that doesn't matters, if there is a god or not, at the end every person is there for themselves and the people they love.

Yup. If we have no religion, then we have no afterlife, and life itself is meaningless, you should just do what makes you happy; and if that's the case, morality breaks down and rapists aren't accountable (referring to the topic on the 11 year old who got gang raped... Such horrible stuff).

We can make the case that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and while that makes sense from a logistical perspective, what or who decides that making everyone just a tiny bit happier is better than making one person fulfilled for life? What makes some people's happiness more important than others? We can't *precisely* do this sort of stuff without someone telling us what morality is, and I don't think humans are trustworthy enough to have that power, given what crap we do when we have way less power already.

This isn't to say atheists are rapists or anything; it's just to say that in the absence of a higher being to help us out with morality, we're left to our own devices, which are destructive in the best of times, I think many people would agree.

So, yeah, I think that we need God even though there are plenty of people who don't believe in any god at all.

@King Saturn said:

Don't Know... We would have to figure out if this Invisible Spirit as you put it has something to do with the Formation and Continuation of our Reality... if we figure out that such thing is not the case... well then eh.

In layman's terms:

If God's the creator, then duh we need (or needed) him! Otherwise he's not necessary because things obviously started without him, and he's not much of a God to begin with.

:P

It is necessary. Why? Cause fiction will be boring without the concept of mythology or any Heaven/Hell-based concepts of good and evil.

Depends on one's belief, but this topic is far too broad.

@minigunman123 said:

Yup. If we have no religion, then we have no afterlife, and life itself is meaningless, you should just do what makes you happy; and if that's the case, morality breaks down and rapists aren't accountable (referring to the topic on the 11 year old who got gang raped... Such horrible stuff).

Just thought i'd point out that we do have a concept of God and Morality and yet it still happened. Some people are just sick in the head. Whether they have the concept of a God or not won't change that.

Lol. Never realise that Religion in and of itself was such a controversial subject here on CV. Interesting.

@Strider92 said:

@minigunman123 said:

Yup. If we have no religion, then we have no afterlife, and life itself is meaningless, you should just do what makes you happy; and if that's the case, morality breaks down and rapists aren't accountable (referring to the topic on the 11 year old who got gang raped... Such horrible stuff).

Just thought i'd point out that we do have a concept of God and Morality and yet it still happened. Some people are just sick in the head. Whether they have the concept of a God or not won't change that.

I was referring to the fact that rapists wouldn't be held accountable at all, not just the fact they exist. We wouldn't have any basis with which to charge them of any wrongdoing except for the fact the law already states it was illegal; but if there was no and never was any god maybe the law would be different, this nation was founded largely by Christians or people who at least approved of the Christian God. If they weren't Christian maybe things would be way different.

Some people do, some people don't.