#1 Posted by WillPayton (9818 posts) - - Show Bio
#2 Edited by Illuminatus (9489 posts) - - Show Bio

Defense cuts? Pfft.
 
Try telling the folks at Academi, Halliburton, Boeing, Raytheon, Bechtel, Lockheed Martin, etc. that you're making defense cuts. Also, try telling that to the banks they collude with, which in turn create monopolies with government support. 
 
The military industrial-complex and the surveillance monstrosities it has spawned (NSA, DHS, CIA, etc.) are so ingrained that going over the fiscal cliff and, by law, cutting defense spending would have been one of the only ways to start down a path of less militarization.
 
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: There was a coup d'etat of corporate, banking, insurance, and big business powers some time ago. There is no solving this problem. There is no coming back. Get used to it.

#3 Posted by _Hawk_ (2058 posts) - - Show Bio

There is sooooo much more that goes into that.

#4 Posted by HammerTron (639 posts) - - Show Bio

Why defense?

Why not cut Welfare spending?

Defense is very important to protect the USA from foreign enemies.

Welfare is about taking from people willing to work for a living and giving to people not willing to do anything for themselves.

#5 Edited by Edamame (28372 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, good luck telling that to those who run the military-industrial complex in this country. Besides, America's extremely high military expenditure contributes to America's diminished manufacturing power. As the leader of NATO, America continues to sell weapons, arms and military technology to other NATO members (especially Poland and Turkey) and other nations in the world (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Taiwan, South Korea, etc.). As a result, America makes a lot of money from all of this. Outsourcing, however, is responsible for the overall decrease in American manufacturing power.

It is important to note that it was basically mass industrialization that got America out of the Great Depression during the World War II era. There were plenty of factory jobs that were available, and a lot of people immediately filled those positions. The Lend-Lease program was also a part of this mass production as America gave a lot of aid (worth billions upon billions of dollars) to Great Britain, the Soviet Union and other Allied nations during World War II.

The American economy would improve if, among other things, rich people invested more of their money into America. Increase American manufacturing and increase consumer spending on products that are "Made In America". The rich should obviously do more of the spending, but that money should not be spent on taxes because that only gives more money and power to the government. The government is a financially irresponsible and financially parasitic entity. Nothing more, nothing less.

#6 Posted by Edamame (28372 posts) - - Show Bio

@HammerTron said:

Welfare is about taking from people willing to work for a living and giving to people not willing to do anything for themselves.

Eh, not always true.

#7 Posted by HammerTron (639 posts) - - Show Bio

@Edamame: Maybe not now, but becoming moreso with each passing day.

#8 Posted by spetsnaz_gru (235 posts) - - Show Bio

Cut pork barrel.

#9 Posted by Matchstick (565 posts) - - Show Bio
@HammerTron said:

Why defense?

Why not cut Welfare spending?

Defense is very important to protect the USA from foreign enemies.

Welfare is about taking from people willing to work for a living and giving to people not willing to do anything for themselves.

Do you not realize that not everyone on welfare is jobless?   Not to mention that most people are ashamed to be on welfare and only do it to feed their kids.  Sure there are people that abuse the system, and they should rightfully be weeded out of the program, but they are far from the majority.
#10 Edited by WillPayton (9818 posts) - - Show Bio

@HammerTron said:

Why defense?

Why not cut Welfare spending?

Defense is very important to protect the USA from foreign enemies.

Welfare is about taking from people willing to work for a living and giving to people not willing to do anything for themselves.

Why defense?

- Because it's a very large part of the budget. It's also clear from the graphs in the article that we spend way out of proportion to what other nations spend. Even if we agree that we want to have the strongest military in the world, cutting the military spending by 50% would still give us this.

Why no cut welfare spending?

- Who said we shouldnt cut welfare spending? But, if we are going to be cutting things, why should we start by cutting programs that help needy people here in the US, instead of cutting spending on wars?

Defense is very important to protect...

- No one said we cant spend on defense. BTW, how much "defense" did the war in Iraq get us?

Welfare is about taking from people willing to work for a living and giving to people not willing to do anything for themselves.

- My family came to the US as political refugees with nothing, and welfare programs helped us to live while we worked and studied to become self-sufficient. We've already contributed back far more than we ever got. Are you calling us lazy freeloaders? What gives you the right? I suppose you'd rather spend tax money on dropping bombs on people in other countries than giving food stamps to starving Americans.

#11 Posted by HammerTron (639 posts) - - Show Bio

I still don't see any reason why spending on defense should be cut. What other countries spend on their defense is irrelevant. Defense is of vital importance to any and every soverign nation. There are many large parts of the budget that are of significantly less importance to the nation.

The title of this thread and the initial post implies that no other part of the budget and spending should be cut. Defense was clearly singled out for the purpose of cutting.

As for how much 'defense' te war in Irag gave the USA it is difficult to determine. Life is not a neatly contained system that can have variables changed like a laboratory experiment can. Conventional wisdom does support the belief that it is better to have wars and fighting in places other than in your home.

I have the right to call any welfare recipient a free loader due to the fact that I prvide the welfare and I have never received any handouts. Considering that I don't know anything about you WillPayton or your family how you came to the conclusion that i was specifially referring to you when I said "Welfare is about taking from people willing to work for a living and giving to people not willing to do anything for themselves." is beyond me.

I stand by my statement. This is what welfare is in the USA.

I don't have a problem dropping bombs on people who hate me or are jealous of me.

I work for everything that i have including all the food I eat. If other people want to eat they'll have to work for it.

To take food away from me, a person who works for it, to give to anothr person, who doesn't work for it, is an indefensable position to take.

#12 Posted by WillPayton (9818 posts) - - Show Bio

No doubt a lot of things are beyond you.

#13 Edited by Illuminatus (9489 posts) - - Show Bio

The UK, France, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Germany, Italy, South Korea, Australia, and Canada are all staunch US allies. The US has numerous deals with the Indian government, sells them all sorts of neat toys, and has made leaps and bounds in the last decade and a half to bolster relations with them.
 
That leaves Russia, China, and Brazil.
 
China relies on US, EU, Canadian, Indian, South Korean, and Japanese markets heavily. If China manages to infuriate a majority of these countries/organizations (looking at you, EU), they would probably fall into a depression overnight. 
 
So that leaves Russia and Brazil.
 
Anyone want to do the next part for me? I don't feel like going through Russian politics/economics/power projections, and Brazil is alien to me. Keep in mind that Russia still suffers from limited naval capabilities and useful ports.

#14 Posted by VercingetorixTheGreat (2823 posts) - - Show Bio

We need to make cuts all around but yes we also should cut defense.

However can we cut defense now that we are so involved in world affairs???? the answer is simply NO

The only way I ever see America's military being reduced is either through revolution or through a catastrophic collapse of the American nation (probably economically)

#15 Posted by pooty (11717 posts) - - Show Bio

I worked at The Welfare Office for many years. I can honestly say at least 30% were taking advantage of the program.

#16 Posted by Edamame (28372 posts) - - Show Bio

@Illuminatus said:

So that leaves Russia and Brazil. Anyone want to do the next part for me? I don't feel like going through Russian politics/economics/power projections, and Brazil is alien to me.

Well, Russian politics is influenced by Putinism, and the military-industrial complex has a lot of power in Russia. Russia continues to sell military technology and weapons (especially those old Cold War weapons) to a lot of nations around the world. The sneaky thing about this is that Russia sells its lower-quality weapons to foreign nations and keep its higher-quality weapons for itself. That is why people often consider Russian military technology and weapons to be old and crappy. The Russian economy is also extremely dependent on its abundant natural resources (oil, petroleum, natural gas, etc.).

Actually, Brazil's economy has surpassed even the British economy, and it is very reliant on all of the natural resources that are in the country. Brazil is also utilizing its manufacturing, mining and agricultural strengths right now.

@Illuminatus said:

Keep in mind that Russia still suffers from limited naval capabilities and useful ports.

Certainly true, but Russia still has (and has had) the naval capabilities to reach and do extensive trade with Venezuela, Brazil and Cuba. Even in the sixties, the former Soviet Union already managed to reach Cuba. That is a huge distance.

#17 Posted by KnightRise (4762 posts) - - Show Bio

@Matchstick said:

@HammerTron said:

Why defense?

Why not cut Welfare spending?

Defense is very important to protect the USA from foreign enemies.

Welfare is about taking from people willing to work for a living and giving to people not willing to do anything for themselves.

Do you not realize that not everyone on welfare is jobless? Not to mention that most people are ashamed to be on welfare and only do it to feed their kids. Sure there are people that abuse the system, and they should rightfully be weeded out of the program, but they are far from the majority.

QFT

#18 Posted by HammerTron (639 posts) - - Show Bio

@WillPayton said:

No doubt a lot of things are beyond you.

Pathetic.

Your 'ideas' are sorely lacking in logic and depth. When confronted with henest debate you have no recourse but to hurl infantile insults.

Pathetic.

#19 Posted by Kratesis (4266 posts) - - Show Bio

There will be cuts in defense spending. Mostly in the areas of personal. We've expanded the rank and file a great deal to meet the demand for boots on the ground in Iraq and Afghanistan. But as those engagements wind down, we don't need those kind of numbers anymore.

There MIGHT be cuts in aerospace and naval technology. A lot of that comes down to internal politics inside the pentagon itself. Time will tell ;-)

#20 Posted by RonPaulRevolution (14 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

I worked at The Welfare Office for many years. I can honestly say at least 30% were taking advantage of the program.

Do you ever find it funny that current day job application personality tests ask that very question?

@HammerTron said:

@WillPayton said:

No doubt a lot of things are beyond you.

Pathetic.

Your 'ideas' are sorely lacking in logic and depth. When confronted with henest debate you have no recourse but to hurl infantile insults.

Pathetic.

Can't tell which one of you guys are more liberal, but if this nation wants to save itself from adding more onto the debt ceiling, then we should cut every non-productive agency and defense. Stop selling our F-15 Eagles and F-14 Tomcats to other nations because selling them doesn't help anything. We already have the defense we need. Close down the bases and military personal only for the countries that really do not want us there to police. Wellfare is a monetary blackhole that keeps people lazy, poor and dependent on the government. Welfare expands government so the money that is supposed to be circulating around the economy is bottlenecking and keeping the credit only within the Public Sector. Tax doesn't fix streets anymore or build bridges or buildings. They feed lazy people. Bring the jobs back here. 80% of everything in your house is made in China, if not other countries that support sweatshop wages. We need to stop lending free money to rich people in poor countries that do not even support their own poor. The Defense Spending is mainly going to other parts of the world. Why can't we just use that Defense money to spend it here, rebuilding our border and the infrastructure? It only took 1969 2 years to build the Twin Towers in New York. Why does it take 7 years to build One Worldtrade Center?

#21 Posted by Edamame (28372 posts) - - Show Bio

@RonPaulRevolution said:

Stop selling our F-15 Eagles and F-14 Tomcats to other nations because selling them doesn't help anything. We already have the defense we need. Close down the bases and military personal only for the countries that really do not want us there to police.

Well, this contributes to America's profit, and it is a part of America's diminished manufacturing power.

Also, America wants to maintain control over certain areas around the world because that often creates more stability. For instance, Germany and Japan were both very powerful in the World War II era. There is a reason why Germany and Japan are only allowed to have self-defense militaries. According to Lord Ismay, the goal of NATO is/was "to keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down."

It is also all about convenience.