Could Saddam Hussein have stopped ISIS?

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frozen

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#1  Edited By frozen  Moderator

The more I think of it, the more wonder whether things would be better if he was still alive. If he was still alive, ISIS would not have made as many gains as they have now and the world's superpowers wouldn't be all over the place.

There is simply no way ISIS would have existed under the brutal regime of Saddam. It's a case of bad vs worse.

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hatemalingsia

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No.

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frozen

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#3 frozen  Moderator
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johnfrank120

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Yes.

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Jimmy_Rustler

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Yeah he could have, I think.

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hatemalingsia

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@frozen said:

@hatemalingsia said:

No.

Reason...

Because Saudi and US would back up the ISIS in your scenario.

*Runs away*

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frozen

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#7  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@hatemalingsia: That's a scary thought but the US probably would not repeat such a mistake, realistically. Or atleast I hope.

Suddam would have not allowed Iraqi soldiers to abandon their posts.

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BatWatch

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I seriously doubt Hussein would have stopped ISIS, but he would have been a check against it. Certainly his strong rule would have been more fervent in suppressing any extremists trying to seize power as opposed to the limp opposition the current Iraq government has presented.

Similarly, keeping Assad in place in Syria is the best check against the Islamic State in Syria. The United States arming Syrian rebels, among whom are Islamic Statists and Al Qaeda members, might be the single stupidest thing this nation has ever done.

This is not to say that either Assad or Hussein are anything other than monsters. They are evil dictators. However, it's not the United States business to try to control the fates of every conflict in the world, and no matter which side we choose in nations like Iraq and Syria, we back a group of bad guys.

We need to stop being World Police.

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#9 frozen  Moderator

@batwatch: We need to support Assad and arm him.

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TheComedian_

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johnfrank120

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In the end I see a new strong leader taking Iraq, Yemen, Libya etc

In Egypt the military is back in power, a strong leader is fighting back against Islamic militias, Iraq is breaking apart etc

Sometimes dictators are needed.

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#12  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@johnfrank120 said:

In the end I see a new strong leader taking Iraq, Yemen, Libya etc

In Egypt the military is back in power, a strong leader is fighting back against Islamic militias, Iraq is breaking apart etc

Sometimes dictators are needed.

The Middle-East for most of the part, will always need dictators and supreme leaders.

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johnfrank120

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#13  Edited By johnfrank120

@frozen: I agree, I hope one day in our lifetimes the time will come where they are not needed but I doubt it.

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BatWatch

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@frozen said:

@batwatch: We need to support Assad and arm him.

Not in my view. I don't want to be arming the terrorist Islamic State rebels and I don't want to be arming the dictatorial Assad. Let's stop giving weapons to mass murderers, shall we? I'm not someone who buys into the idea that Muslim extremists are only violent because of the actions of the West, but I do think our interference in Middle Easter affairs is a contributing factor to their anger and hatred of the West. Who wouldn't be ticked if a foreign power came in and aided an evil dictator?

We meddle and we meddle and we meddle and we meddle. Even if such meddling didn't cause more problems than it fixes, the U.S. is the biggest debtor nation of all time. It's time to stop spending money on every conceivable thing we can imagine. Let's mind our own darn business and let the rest of the World sort out its own problems.

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deactivated-5e3b7f04aeb74

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It can be argued that ISIS would not even exist if Iraq was never invaded. I really don't understand what the US is doing over there and what the master plan is. It's like a giant experiment.

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#17  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@batwatch: I could write an essay about it, I agree that America should not be the world's police, but when it comes to dictators vs extremists, I side with the former. Now your position is non-intervention by the looks of it, I mostly agree with that but ISIS is not to be under-estimated.

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#18  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@silkyballfro94 said:

It can be argued that ISIS would not even exist if Iraq was never invaded. I really don't understand what the US is doing over there and what the master plan is. It's like a giant experiment.

The mess started with Iran. When the Ayatollah Khomeini became supreme leader of Iran in the late 1970s, America practically let Iraq attack (and based on an admission, wanted Iraq to attack). Iraq noticed Iran's weakness once America put sanctions on Iran (from when the Aytollah became leader).

It escalated over time...

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deactivated-5e3b7f04aeb74

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@frozen: No I know what started all of it and how it escalated. The thing I don't get is that the government keeps funding/arming everyone. It just seems like a sick experiment on a massive scale. Let's go support this faction and then they might betray us or we might even betray them if they decide to go against our plans. Then let's get these people to hate each other and then we'll give one of them our support and let's see what happens. Oops that didn't work out, let's go support these people now.

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BatWatch

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@frozen:

Yeah, I'm pretty much a non-interventionist. I bought into Bush's War in Iraq and the nation building efforts in Afghanistan, and I learned from my mistakes. Our current involvement with the Islamic State and Middle East is just Obama's manifestation of the same American hubris; the idea that we can and should shape the world in our image. I believe America should be a shining city on a hill; I believe we should be a place that the oppressed world can see and find inspirational, but I don't believe in exporting our domestic freedom (which seems to be in shrinking supply) to other nations at the barell of a gun.

I suppose if someone forced me to pick a side between a dictator and a terrorist, I would go with dictator, but in reality, there is no reason to pick a side in this situation. I agree the Islamic State is a potential threat to the U. S., but we'd be a lot better able to deal with shocks to the U. S. system if we had a stable govenrment instead of one balanced on the precipice of fiscal ruin, a ruin brought to us in part because of our extraordinary military spending.

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Cave_Duck

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#21  Edited By Cave_Duck

@batwatch said:

@frozen said:

@batwatch: We need to support Assad and arm him.

Not in my view. I don't want to be arming the terrorist Islamic State rebels and I don't want to be arming the dictatorial Assad. Let's stop giving weapons to mass murderers, shall we? I'm not someone who buys into the idea that Muslim extremists are only violent because of the actions of the West, but I do think our interference in Middle Easter affairs is a contributing factor to their anger and hatred of the West. Who wouldn't be ticked if a foreign power came in and aided an evil dictator?

We meddle and we meddle and we meddle and we meddle. Even if such meddling didn't cause more problems than it fixes, the U.S. is the biggest debtor nation of all time. It's time to stop spending money on every conceivable thing we can imagine. Let's mind our own darn business and let the rest of the World sort out its own problems.

That's my thought too. sure its a great concept going in and "helping a fledgling nation" but if it works- you annoy people who weren't given power, if it doesn't work- you annoy the people who failed.

It's a lose/ lose scenario for the most part. Throwing guns at them and standing back doesn't help either, it made me want to scream at the TV when they first started reporting the "International Arms drops to besieged rebels".

There's no winning strategy for the region now, all that's happening now is Politicians trying to unring a bell.

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Noone301994

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Definitely. His army was nothing to laugh at. In fact, he probably wouldn't even have allowed it to grow so large in Iraq in the first place.

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Mandarinestro

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#23  Edited By Mandarinestro

@frozen: The problem is Turkey wants Assad out of his palace and Turkey is NATO.

And as for this thread. Militant Christianity stopped Saladin in the Crusades. Nazism could have stopped Communism, Communism could have stopped Taliban, the Ottoman Empire could have stopped Pan-Arabianism, and so on. Sometimes you just have to choose the lesser evil, or don't choose at all.

Heck, the British Raj would have prevented fundamentalism in Pakistan now wouldn’t they?

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Chibi_cute

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Iraq used to be a wealthy nation in the 70's. Now its a complete hellhole.

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@cave_duck:

I truly cannot understand what the politicians are thinking of arming Syrian rebels. We are literally arming our sworn enemies. Though I don't want us to arm Assad either, I could at least see why we might side with him as the lesser of two evils. It's ridiculous moves like this that spawn crazy conspiracy theories like, "Obama is a secret Muslim spy," which are ideas I whole heartedly condemn, but I can understand why someone turns to a crazy theory when there seems to be no sane reason for the behavior.

I think on a political level, it's a mix between that nation building impulse, which I've graudally grown to hate more and more as I've studied American history, and the desire for the politicians to be seen doing something since the American people have apparently adopted the idea that the United States government must solve every problem anywhere in the universe.

For the first half of this nation's history, we didn't really mess with the rest of the world. I'd like us to get back to that.

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@mandarinestro:

Those are fair points, but we don't have to choose a side in these situations. When there are two evil parties, we should side with neither. If we have a common enemy in a battle we must fight, okay, we can both attack the common enemy, but we don't put guns in the hands of murderers

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Cream_God

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Not playing world police would have made it so they never gained power but noooooo war is good according to both sides, and he probably could have stopped them

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dimitridkatsis

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Coulda woulda shoulda tsk tsk tsk.

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#30  Edited By mickey-mouse

@sophia89 said:

Saddam was a monster and a tyrant(helped by the US Government until he bite the hand that feed him) ,but he was a wise enough leader to stop ISIS before it became that big of a threat.

Fixed.

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Rouflex

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The right answer is yes, considering SH is only a gimmick. The guys behind it (CIA) is the same dude who started it up (I'm not saying every guy out there are mercenary payed by the US GOV but the dudes who started the whole thing were).

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nefarious

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Things would NOT be better if he was still alive. He would still continue to kill his people.

I thought I would never see or hear of that name again.

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Homer_X

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Maybe

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Mandarinestro

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@frozen: @batwatch: Since you guys are always up for discussion in politics threads, here I found an essay written in Quora in response to the question "What if America stopped being World Police?":

There are a few historical forces at work that are pertinent to the questions. The first is the rise in the 18th and 19th centuries of a world order - a truly global economic and (in a very weak sense, but nonetheless existing) political world order. This gave rise to a new phenomenon, the Great Powers, and the competition between them for control over this new world order. Major powers have existed throughout human history but even the greatest among them, the 13th century Mongolian Empire, was really just an exaggerated regional power. Powers like China, Inca, Mali, Moghul India, Abbasid Arabia, Cyrus' Persia, Rome, the Aztec, etc. etc. etc were fierce and amazing civilizations but very limited by technology to regions. The European powers were the first to take that to the next level, to a global level, and to begin to construct truly global economic, logistical and military mechanisms. Unfortunately, the European Great Powers' competition for control over that world order culminated in two suicidal European (civil) wars, which we call "World War I" and "World War II." Japan's rise and participation in these wars is the first hint of the spread of this world order, and its willingness to include any country as a Great Power - not just Europeans. In the meantime, before those self-destructive wars, Europe created global standards of everything from diplomacy to measurement (the metric system) to currency conversion to finance to international law to weather and climate measurement to shipping and commercial rules to etc. etc. etc. Now of course much of all that was borrowed from other civilizations, but it was the Europeans who globalized them and made them universal standards. This applies to good stuff like the discipline of science and to less good stuff like the African slave trade. We still today live very much on that European-contrived system of globalization, though it continues to be tweaked, challenged and developed. (Historian Jan T. Gross and former U.S. NSA adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski both in the 1970s referred to the Soviet Union as the "Spoiler State" because, in having tried and failed from 1930s-1960s to build a successful alternative global system to the European/ Western one, it resorted instead by the late 1960s and throughout the 1970s and 80s to petty attempts to undermine and destroy the Western global model.)

The U.S. was traditionally an isolationist state before the World Wars, rarely sending its armies beyond North America. (The U.S. did frequently intervene in the affairs of Central American countries, occupying Vera Cruz in a dispute with revolutionary Mexico in 1914 for instance, and in a fit of imperialism in the 1890s the U.S. seized Hawaii, the Philippines, Cuba, and Puerto Rico - but these were the exceptions.) Also, throughout the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, Americans had fought for control of North America with the British, Indians, French, Spanish and Canadians, but these were considered home turf wars. The first time American soldiers would invade either Europe or Africa would be 1805 when U.S. Marines invaded North Africa against the Barbary Pirates. The next time would be World War I. The experience of World War I shocked many Americans and despite the immense popularity of Woodrow Wilson and his ideas at the Paris Peace Conference in 1919, he was easily out-maneuvered politically at the conference and when he came home, Americans opted (by rejecting joining the League of Nations) out of any further cooperation or involvement with Europe. The U.S. pulled back from the world and avoided alliances. The Great Depression proved that global economic integration required some sort of global cooperation, but the U.S. still dragged its feet about joining World War II until forced into a decision in 1941.

The Franklin Roosevelt vision for the postwar world was of a collection of regional powers meeting in the United Nations and discussing their differences there, and meting out solutions through the UN. Roosevelt was utterly committed to the UN, though it reflected the mindset of its day - all countries of the world would participate, but some were more equal than others, and so a permanent security council of Great Powers would have ultimate authority. Roosevelt envisioned that as soon as World War II ended, the U.S. would pull back all its forces and go back to a relatively isolationist standing, with the exception that the U.S. would work with other great powers to ensure peace. This was one of the reasons, for instance, that Roosevelt insisted that China be on the permanent security council, as an Asian representative and as a counter-weight to Japan. (The U.S. actually had a strongly pro-Chinese foreign policy in the 20th century prior to Mao tse-Tung, but that's another story.)

The trade-off in Roosevelt's policy was that there would be no world policeman; the UN was built to ensure the integrity of country's rights, but that meant regardless of whether a country was a democracy or a dictatorship or a crazed theocracy. It is this aspect of the UN that modern China most strongly supports, the rejection of interference in other states' affairs, even if they're murdering their own citizens. That's the price of the Roosevelt model, the rejection of any notion of universal human rights. In the UN model, countries are more important than people. For those recently victimized by (mostly Western) imperialism and colonialism, that is a crucial element to the UN, but it ignores their own crimes - such as China's seizure and suppression of local culture in Tibet or the Uighur lands, or Indonesia's seizure of East Timor after Australia set it free, and the subsequent massacres of East Timorites by Indonesian military forces, etc. etc. etc.The UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted belatedly in 1948 by the Western Powers as a challenge to the communist world, and while most of the pro-Soviet states signed it, it has obviously only had a superficial impact on our world. The UN's first order of business is the business of states - not their citizens. Indeed, Roosevelt's vision recognized this weakness but still accepted it when it was confronted with Soviet imperialism in Eastern Europe; at the Tehran and Yalta conferences, Roosevelt effectively told Stalin that he knew the U.S. could do little to stop the Soviets from establishing an empire in Eastern Europe (a violation of the Atlantic Charter, to which Stalin was a signatory) and so Roosevelt would simply look the other way and ignore Soviet violations of earlier agreements re: Eastern Europe in exchange for Soviet participation and cooperation in the UN. Again, the Roosevelt vision was of major regional powers cooperating globally to keep the peace; what each of those powers did within their own realms was to be their business, no matter how gruesome or nasty. And of course it's easy to be critical of that aspect of Roosevelt's vision, but maybe any realistic approach to peace had to start with baby steps - stop the world's major powers from waging wars against one another first, then move on to other issues later. Just playing Devil's Advocate there.

Roosevelt died in April, 1945 however, before the war ended. There was a famous incident where new U.S. president Harry Truman, completely uninformed about Roosevelt's policies, severely reprimanded visiting Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov just 11 days after Roosevelt's death over brutal Soviet policies in occupied Poland, only to retract those statements days later and apologise after discovering Roosevelt's "green light" to the Soviet take overs in Eastern Europe. In any event, Roosevelt's policies still ruled for some time after his death. Literally on the day the war ended in Europe, American ships carrying supplies to the allies in Europe turned around mid-ocean and headed back to the U.S., while plans to decommission the 12 million American soldiers serving around the world were drawn up. There was still the war against Japan and there would be occupation duty, but these were factored in. By 1950, there were only about 1 million troops in the U.S. military, mostly spread around the world in occupation duty. However, the challenge to Roosevelt's ideals came in the form of the Cold War. Without getting bogged down in how the Cold War started, it was seen by Washington as a fundamental challenge to free states, as yet another imperial take-over attempt akin to Hitler. Washington's first impulse was to sit back and support the global leader, Britain, but Britain underwent a sort of slow-moving imperial implosion after World War II, first handing the Greek, Turkish and Iranian anti-communist crises over to the Americans, then the loss of Palestine and India, and finally the startling announcement that the UK couldn't afford the small British occupation force in Germany, prompting the U.S. to arrange for the Western powers to pool their occupations zones together to form the BRD/ West Germany in 1948-1949. Add to these the Soviet challenges - the creation of the Iron Curtain, the Berlin crises, the Turkish and Iranian crises,etc., and by 1949 you had Americans like George Kennan and George Marshall saying "We have to do something." The Korean War was the final straw that convinced the Americans - against many voices at home urging that the U.S. remain isolationist - to start building up its armed forces and start building alliances around the world to counter what Washington saw as Soviet imperialist expansionism. For the first time in American history, for instance, there was an active conscription program in the 1950s (until 1974) for the military in peace time.

This is the genesis of the "American Empire" that exists today, and the American role as global cop that so many resent. The good news - or bad news, depending on how one sees things - is that it is slowly going away. One side effect of the Pax Americana has been a massive surge in global trade - globalization - facilitated by the U.S. in a million ways. For instance, the U.S. has worked closely with the SEATO countries in southeast Asia to help police the Malacca Strait against rampant pirates for decades. If the U.S. pulls back - and the old isolationist impulses have never completely gone away; there are American nationalists who argue that the U.S. should never have fought in the World Wars, and the U.S. military should never leave U.S. soil - then you will see a large drop in global trade, travel and shipping will become much more expensive, and global investment will fall as many borderline regions become far less stable (without the threat of U.S. or UN intervention). China today is trying to develop an alternative to the Western global model, even as it benefits immensely from the Western model; that is born of Chinese nationalism that sees itself as the rightful center of the world. Indeed, after a few years of happily watching the relative decline of American influence in Asia with the rise of China, several local countries (including some not aligned currently with Washington such as Vietnam) began requesting c. 2009-2010 a stronger American military commitment to Southeast Asia out of a fear of growing Chinese militarism and assertiveness in its economic and territorial claims. There are certainly victims of the American world order - during the Cold War in particular, Washington (and its allies) often supported some nasty local regimes across the Third World so long as they were anti-communist/ anti-Soviet. Against its own better judgment, the U.S. also often supported lingering European colonial regimes in the name of anti-communism, blackening the U.S. image in many Third World countries. And in many respects, the military-industrial complex feared by U.S. President Eisenhower came into being, although it is weaker today than many suspect and its funding is maintained through nationalist scare-mongering rather than Hollywood-style smoky backroom deals.

As U.S. influence recedes - which is not to mean the same thing as U.S. power receding - the U.S. finds itself once again facing the Roosevelt option, of a world order driven by cooperation of regional powers through the UN. A complication with that vision by now is that with the European experience of decolonization and the global terror of nuclear holocaust during the Cold War, a human rights movement arose in the West that closely monitors and decries human rights violations both by the West, its allies, and the entire world. The Roosevelt vision of a U.S. pullback requires that those human rights ideals be largely abandoned, at least outside of cooperative countries. Also, as a few have cited, for the pain and suffering inflicted by the Pax Americana on some peoples, it has led to a world with dramatically fewer wars. The Roosevelt vision only tries to stop major wars between the Great Powers, sort of like the Concert of Europe in the mid-19th century after the Napoleonic Wars. It's not about trying to stop all wars. We need to be thinking about these things because this post-American world is now passing and a multi-polar world is rapidly approaching. We can plan to make it at least marginally peaceful and beneficial for most, but we need to be discussing these issues now. Are you prepared for many Rwandas and Bosnia-style attempted genocides, for many more wars in Africa, for a low-investment environment where risk is far higher to manage than today, in exchange for a reduced American presence in the world? Europe's military forces for instance are quite frankly pathetic, and while the competition of the great powers is in the past for Europe, the EU and its members have demonstrated many times since the 1990s that it has neither the will nor means to undertake anything above the smallest and quickest military engagements. The EU has repeatedly failed to even define its own interests in the face of security threats, much less actually actively move to defend them. This is one of the reasons that even anti-Bush Eastern Europeans continued to want a strong American military presence or relationship with Europe; Poles and Estonians don't trust that Englishmen, Spaniards or Dutchmen will really come to their aid in the event of some security emergency. These are thoughts to keep in mind as we move slowly out of the Pax Americana, into the unknown, for better or worse.

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#36  Edited By BatWatch

@mandarinestro:

Please forgive spelling errors. I'm on my phone and don't have time to spell check a comment this large.

Good article. I mostly agreed with it, but I take a few exceptions with it.

1. Wilson's League of Nations wasn't popular. Some of the other nations he tried to rally to the banner mocked him. Domestically, the League of Nations failed to be adopted because it was unpopular. Wilson nearly killed himself going on a speaking tour across the nation trying and failing to convince the people the League was a good idea.

2. I'm not sure how FDR would feel about the U.N. since he didn't actually live to the end of the war. From what I do know of him, he didn't seem particularly isolationist to me. He was doing all in his power to aid the Allies without a declaration of war.

3. I agree that other major powers in the world, China and Russia for instance, are trying to break free from a U.S. dominated world. They are actively trying to unpeg their currency and security from the U.S. and establish a world that puts them at center, and this among other world changes could end the U.S. monopoly on power, but the article seems to see this as a certainty whereas I don't see many in political leadership in the United States who would allow this to happen without a fight. The Right is notoriously hawkish and the left is shown to often be no better though they pretend otherwise. (note the handling of Islamic State and Vietnam)

4. The author is right in that a withdraw of U.S. forces securing the world will necessitate a giant and violent upset in the world balance of power. The U.S. came out on top after WWII and has been acting to maintain that status quo ever since, and their lack of presence would greatly upset the balance. That being said, let's not pretend the world has really been peaceful. It's been the United States (and other nations) propping up powers that benefit themselves, and all too often those friendly powers are despots. All over the world in third world nations and to a lesser extent, second world nations, people are murdered by their governments, and the U.S. turns a blind eye. Throughout the twentieth century in places like Korea and Vietnam, wars were fought between the world powers, but they were fought via proxy. Sure, the major nations haven't clashed swords, but they use the rest of the world as pawns in a game of life and death, and the threat of World War III being started over a conflict over an American or American allied interest in some random part of the globe is always in the background of nearly any foreign dispute.

I support us returning to a non-interventionist system of foreign policy, but I don't kid myself that it would be all sunshine and rainbows. There would be a violent shake up, (how violent is impossible to predict) yet I support it because I don't believe the United States nor the West has the right to control the destinies of every nation on the planet. I want to vomit at the thought of the dictators we have propped up in the name of the greater good. We are not God, and we don't get to screw over every nation who makes a choice we dislike just because we have the power. Every nation has the right to determine it's own destiny, and we have no right to control them as long as they do not threaten us.

Also, we have no money to spend on this giant military, (or any other giant government programs) so even if someone believes in intervention, we should still scale it way back.

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consolemaster001

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#37  Edited By consolemaster001

@frozen: What the Middle East really "NEEDS" is a pan-Islamic Union with strong leadership and a powerful military. That way stability can be secured. And terrorist groups such as ISIS can either be exterminated or be forced to hide out in caves and mountains until they succumb to starvation and disease.

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@consolemaster001:

That might work. Alternatively, the entire Middle Eastern Union might become one giant Islamic State. It's not like many of the nations in the Middle East are particularly peaceful, and the few that are definitely don't want to join hands with the crazies.

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@batwatch: I always imagined a "Russian Federation" like pan-Islamic nation. This is a bit difficult to realize since kings like in the KSA won't give up their titles so easily but Libya Egypt Syria and Iraq could all merge together to form the "United Arab Republic". Since those 4 are probably the least stable Middle Eastern nations it makes sense.

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#40 frozen  Moderator
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@frozen: Why ? The Middle Eastern people don't WANT a secular government.

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@consolemaster001:

It could work in theory, but I can't imagine any of those dictators ever giving up their power. I'm also not sure that binding the four most unstable nations together would increase their stability. It seems more likely to increase instability.

I'm afraid the only people interested in creating a giant Islamic State right now is the Islamic State.

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@batwatch said:

@consolemaster001:

It could work in theory, but I can't imagine any of those dictators ever giving up their power. I'm also not sure that binding the four most unstable nations together would increase their stability. It seems more likely to increase instability.

I'm afraid the only people interested in creating a giant Islamic State right now is the Islamic State.

Exactly

And it sucks...hard.

IMO the last "Islamic state" was the Ottoman Empire.

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#44  Edited By frozen  Moderator

@consolemaster001 said:

@frozen: Why ? The Middle Eastern people don't WANT a secular government.

I was asking you. Would you prefer a secular government or Islamic?

Also the Ottoman Empire was pretty awful in it's treatment of non-Muslims, specifically Christians. Gladstone targeted the Christian atrocities during the Eastern Question.

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@frozen said:

@consolemaster001 said:

@frozen: Why ? The Middle Eastern people don't WANT a secular government.

I was asking you. Would you prefer a secular government or Islamic?

Also the Ottoman Empire was pretty awful in it's treatment of non-Muslims, specifically Christians. Gladstone targeted the Christian atrocities during the Eastern Question.

Islamic.

The Ottoman Empire only "awfully" treated its non-Muslim citizens because of rebellions. After the Islahat reforms in the 1850's Non Muslim citizens were considered equal to Muslim citizens.

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#46 frozen  Moderator

@consolemaster001: Why Islamic? I'm just curious.

Also do you have evidence that the Ottoman Empire only killed because of rebellions? And let's not forget about the Armenian Genocide carried out by that same Empire.

was the Ottoman government's systematic extermination of its minority Armenian subjects from their historic homeland within the territory constituting the present-day Republic of Turkey. The starting date is conventionally held to be 24 April 1915, the day Ottoman authorities rounded up and arrested some 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders in Constantinople. The genocide was carried out during and after World War I and implemented in two phases: the wholesale killing of the able-bodied male population through massacre and subjection of army conscripts to forced labour, followed by the deportation of women, children, the elderly and infirm on death marches leading to the Syrian desert. Driven forward by military escorts, the deportees were deprived of food and water and subjected to periodic robbery, rape, and massacre.[10][11][12] The total number of people killed as a result has been estimated at between 1 and 1.5 million. Other indigenous and Christian ethnic groups such as the Assyrians and the Ottoman Greeks were similarly targeted for extermination by the Ottoman government, and their treatment is considered by many historians to be part of the same genocidal policy.[13][14][15] The majority of Armenian diaspora communities around the world came into being as a direct result of the genocide.

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#47  Edited By dshipp17

@frozen said:

@hatemalingsia said:

No.

Reason...

Because Saudi and US would back up the ISIS in your scenario.

*Runs away*

I think that I agree with you; it seems like the United States deciding to attack Saddam just stirred up a hornet's nest; specifically, I'm talking about the second Gulf War starting back in 2003; the first Gulf War was fine. The instability in Iraq seems to be result of US involvement. Saddam was actually a stabilizing factor throughout the Middle East and I think if Saddam were still in power, Syria would even be stable. I think the stability of the region would have prevented groups like ISIS from forming and these groups would have been isolated to the Afghanistan region.

I'm not talking about the current case where ISIS was a moving group, attacking the region, as it's doing now, just that Saddam's presence would have kept it from forming. If ISIS just existed and decided to invade a Saddam ruled Iraq, that's a different type of situation; I assume the Iraqi troops would have stood their ground and fought against ISIS.

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@frozen said:

@consolemaster001: Why Islamic? I'm just curious.

Also do you have evidence that the Ottoman Empire only killed because of rebellions? And let's not forget about the Armenian Genocide carried out by that same Empire.

was the Ottoman government's systematic extermination of its minority Armenian subjects from their historic homeland within the territory constituting the present-day Republic of Turkey. The starting date is conventionally held to be 24 April 1915, the day Ottoman authorities rounded up and arrested some 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders in Constantinople. The genocide was carried out during and after World War I and implemented in two phases: the wholesale killing of the able-bodied male population through massacre and subjection of army conscripts to forced labour, followed by the deportation of women, children, the elderly and infirm on death marches leading to the Syrian desert. Driven forward by military escorts, the deportees were deprived of food and water and subjected to periodic robbery, rape, and massacre.[10][11][12] The total number of people killed as a result has been estimated at between 1 and 1.5 million. Other indigenous and Christian ethnic groups such as the Assyrians and the Ottoman Greeks were similarly targeted for extermination by the Ottoman government, and their treatment is considered by many historians to be part of the same genocidal policy.[13][14][15] The majority of Armenian diaspora communities around the world came into being as a direct result of the genocide.

I prefer Islamic because i think justice would be done the best way.

M8 i'm not going to debate the Armenian genocide here.

If you want we could do it over PM ?

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#49  Edited By Mandarinestro

@batwatch: Well written out, good sir. Always enjoyed reading your posts.

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IT just woulda been some other villain of the week...