brazilian transgenders break into the modeling world

@Agent Buttons said:

@Vance Astro said:

I hope that people know they are trannies before they hit the runway. Don't think women (who these clothes are being modeled for) want men looking better in high fashion than they do. Gotta do something to the self-esteem.

Please. If a trans woman can come out and make all the other women feel inadequate than more power to her.

Absolutely. I have no problem if a transgender can rock heels and dress better than me. Does absolutely nothing to my esteem whatsoever, its a bit ridiculous to think it would and if there are women who would feel threatened by that, its a reflection on them.

@umbrafeline said:

and @Vance Astro you are right. there are only men and women

Don't agree. There are not only men and women.

@Vance Astro said:

@lykopis said:

Don't agree. There are not only men and women.

Sure there is. You can cut whatever parts off a man you want, He's still a man.

Subjective. Many human beings are born with both genitalia and hormones to go with. Plus --- what is a man? Testerone? A woman? Estrogen? So, biologically --- there is not just males and females. And if a man physically alters himself to become a woman --- he's a woman. And vice-versa. Have no idea why you would feel otherwise.

@lykopis said:

its a bit ridiculous to think it would and if there are women who would feel threatened by that
Don't think it is.

Well --- considering I am a woman and you are not, I think I will stick with my take on the matter. I think there are bigger issues on a runway that have to do with unrealistic female body image than a hot transgender who pretty much perpetuates the same ideal. Small hipped, long legged, ultra slim tall women seem almost geared to be emulated by transgenders. Let me know when a small waisted, wide hipped, big breasted voluptuous woman walks down the aisle. Until then --- I think us women are safe from feeling we need to compete with transgenders in the looks department.

Edit: Freaking typos.

@Vance Astro said:

@lykopis said:

Many human beings are born with both genitalia and hormones to go with.

"Many" isn't what I would use to describe the numbers of people born like this. I guess in this respect there isn't really just men and women intersex people are a combination of the two but the bottom line is if you are born a specific gender, you can't then become another gender in adulthood.

@lykopis said:

Have no idea why you would feel otherwise.

For the obvious reason. You can't become a woman. If you were born a male, you're still a male no matter what doctors do to you. Show me a man who was transitioned into a woman with a working reproductive system that can have a monthly and get pregnant and I'll agree with you. Taking hormonal shots, stuffing silicon into your chest and flipping your penis inside out doesn't make you a woman.

@lykopis said:

Well --- considering I am a woman and you are not, I think I will stick with my take on the matter. I think there are bigger issues on a runway that have to do with unrealistic female body image than a hot transgender who pretty much perpetuates the same ideal. Small hipped, long legged, ultra slim tall women seem almost geared to be emulated by transgenders. Let me know when a small waisted, wide hipped, big breasted voluptuous woman walks down the aisle. Until then --- I think us women are safe from feeling we need to compete with transgenders in the looks department.

Edit: Freaking typos.

I don't think the fact that you're a female and that my post is about females makes your opinion any more credible than mine, you are also only one person. For me to be wrong there would have to be alot more than just you that disagrees. Obviously a generalization isn't going to apply to everyone.

Yes --- you can become a different gender. Medically and legally, a male can become a female and a female can become a male whether you agree with it or not. Your opinion means nothing in a court of law but of course --- its your right to express it.

Following your logic, a woman who was born without a uterus or ovaries is not a woman? And a man born without testes is not a man? Because its the ability to provide a x or y chromosome and the ability to provide an egg and/or gestate one is which determines what is a woman or what is a man? I am sure I misunderstood you.

My being a female and you being a male does have some relevance in terms of women's self esteem when considering what traipses down fashion run-ways. These are subjective opinions -- one is yours and one is mine. I don't believe you are flipping through the pages of Vogue like I do and determining what style you might pursue in the coming Spring Collections. Then again, there may be many women who feel as you do, of course. Just as there may be many men who feel as I do.

U mad tho?

@Vance Astro said:

@lykopis said:

Yes --- you can become a different gender. Medically and legally, a male can become a female and a female can become a male whether you agree with it or not. Your opinion means nothing in a court of law but of course --- its your right to express it.

Following your logic, a woman who was born without a uterus or ovaries is not a woman? And a man born without testes is not a man? Because its the ability to provide a x or y chromosome and the ability to provide an egg and/or gestate one is which determines what is a woman or what is a man? I am sure I misunderstood you.

I disagree but this is kind of veering off topic so i'm not going to try and counter this.

How is this veering off topic? You were the one who brought up reverse penises and reproductive organs? You were the one who brought up how men stay men and women stay women. The law and medical certification is FACT. As for the rest -- if you can't counter something in response to what you bring up, why bring it up in the first place? I didn't have to try to counter what you said, I actually did. This portion of our dialogue was already closed.

@Vance Astro said:

@lykopis said:

My being a female and you being a male does have some relevance in terms of women's self esteem when considering what traipses down fashion run-ways.

Didn't say it didn't have any relevance.

Where did I say you claimed it had no relevance? I am simply pointing out its relevance. Whether you agree or not has no bearing.

@Vance Astro said:

@lykopis said:

These are subjective opinions -- one is yours and one is mine.

I think that's the point I was trying to make.

If that was the point you were trying to make, you did a terrible job of it.

@Vance Astro said:

@lykopis said:

U mad tho?

About what?

Just following your lead.

@Vance Astro said:

@lykopis said:

How is this veering off topic? You were the one who brought up reverse penises and reproductive organs? You were the one who brought up how men stay men and women stay women. The law and medical certification is FACT. As for the rest -- if you can't counter something in response to what you bring up, why bring it up in the first place? I didn't have to try to counter what you said, I actually did. This portion of our dialogue was already closed.

Because now where arguing about what makes some a woman or not and it doesn't actually have anything to do with the topic. I'm not placing the blame on you for taking the thread off-topic I acknowledge that I was the one that did that. As far as I'm concerned there is only men and women. If you want to believe that, you can. I don't really care that much.

You cared enough to bring it up and you cared enough to once again to re-iterate your opinion about whether a man or woman can change their gender in your latest response. Its all there.

@Vance Astro said:

@lykopis said:

Where did I say you claimed it had no relevance? I am simply pointing out its relevance. Whether you agree or not has no bearing.

The first sentence of your posts seems to suggest that or that's at least how I took it.

No. It didn't. How you took it is on you, not me.

@Vance Astro said:

@lykopis said:

If that was the point you were trying to make, you did a terrible job of it.

Thanks.

You're welcome. :)

@Vance Astro said:

@lykopis said:

Just following your lead.

I asked for a reason. You apparently aren't.

No. You didn't. But -- that's my opinion. ( disclaimer: no sausages were brought into/invoked and/or harmed in this conversation )

This thread got ugly... instantly. O.o But I agree with Lykopis here -- if someone physically alters themselves and goes through the trauma of completely changing their life, image, and gender, why should they suffer the stigma of people pointing fingers and going "nothing has changed, all you have done was for naught". It's... well, just mean. The bravery it takes to go through a sexual transformation is far greater than most people can muster, those people don't deserve to have their efforts be deemed meaningless by those who didn't do the same.

@Joygirl: Agreed, words are kind of funny in that sense, well you would know being a word smith, but just the evolution and development of the human brain and emergence of language and subsequent attempts to identify, distinguish and label things. Legal changes, medical changes, societal changes, visual changes, perceptual changes, genetic changes, all these things can be different and labelled or applied differently as such. An irony also being that boys used to be called girls for a long period of time.