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#1 Posted by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio

ok so a couple of people at my work were talking about abortion and this older gentleman proposed this:

since a woman can legally choose to abort a baby without the father's consent and because a woman can get pregnant by man and not inform him of the baby until its born then show up and demand child support (there was a bunch of other unfair stuff he brought to our attention but you get the gist) then a man should have, what he called, the right to abandon. so basically a man should have the right to go to the court and pay a fee to abandon a baby and relinquish all responsibility to the child if he pays this fee. and the fee should be equal to however much a woman would have to pay for an abortion in that area......so what do you guys think about this idea?

#2 Posted by Immortal777 (7268 posts) - - Show Bio

Fine by me but I would still want to take care of my child.

#3 Posted by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio

@immortal777:

as would I. but the idea was that this would bring about true equality

#4 Edited by Immortal777 (7268 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: It sounds good I just would hope people wouldn't use the word abandon it just doesn't sit right with me. I don't want to sound like him.

#5 Posted by BiteMe-Fanboy (7711 posts) - - Show Bio

I think you can do that.

This guy I know had a kid with his g/f, and he didn't want nothing to do with it so he signed over 100% of his rights to the baby to his now ex g/f.

He is officially not that babies daddy.

#6 Edited by mrdecepticonleader (17823 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree. I think its a great idea. If it is allowed already that is even better.

#7 Posted by Pyrogram (36304 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually like that idea in a strange way o_0

#8 Posted by Wolverine08 (40796 posts) - - Show Bio

Sounds awesome really.

#9 Edited by PartialSanity (433 posts) - - Show Bio

This "proposal" sounds more like a fear tactic.

#10 Edited by M3th (2075 posts) - - Show Bio

Sounds a bit complicated. Can the father pay the abortion fee before and after the baby is born?

#11 Posted by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Posted by lykopis (10753 posts) - - Show Bio

I think you can do that.

This guy I know had a kid with his g/f, and he didn't want nothing to do with it so he signed over 100% of his rights to the baby to his now ex g/f.

He is officially not that babies daddy.

You can sign away your rights to the baby but it's more complicated than that. The mother is also agreeing to it and by having full custody of the child, is not seeking support.

I think it's a great idea although some tweaking might be in order. The wording can be changed as it makes it sound like the guy is being a jerk. And of course, this is a situation in which a pregnancy was not planned (as this can be abused by a husband in not wanting to support children in a divorce for example).

Interesting idea. Worth thinking about.

#13 Posted by Crimson_Vigilante (488 posts) - - Show Bio

Gives us a fair chance! Damn she-devils, think hey can sabotage OUR condoms, and show up at OUR doorsteps, and expect free money? I say Neigh!

#14 Posted by ShadowKing (834 posts) - - Show Bio

Interesting.

#15 Edited by PartialSanity (433 posts) - - Show Bio
@sog7dc said:

Well, if I re-word that, I can say "Since a woman can choose to have an abortion, she must be open to the possibility of abandonment in the case she decides to bring life into the world." It preys on the fear of helplessness, while trying to seem fair because... abortion. It also forms an assumption that abortions are primarily a financial decision, which is foolish.

If a "proposal" could be used for a political agenda, whether intended to be that way or not, it is a poorly worded proposal or simply a bad proposal altogether.

This just seems like a roundabout way to get people talking about abortion, yet again.

EDIT: I understand there's some weird cases out there, and it is not always fair, but with most things like this it really should be handled on a case by case basis, generalizing things gets you on the fastest track to nowhere.

#16 Posted by Lunacyde (18470 posts) - - Show Bio

Or...you could take responsibility for your actions.

#17 Posted by PartialSanity (433 posts) - - Show Bio
@lunacyde said:

Or...you could take responsibility for your actions.

http://jesshaines.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/So-It-Begins.gif

#18 Posted by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: If a woman can abort is she taking responsibility?

#19 Posted by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio

@partialsanity: Maybe I'm

Missing your point but I think that this idea is a fair one. A woman can abort a baby without consent of the father whether it be an "its my body" reason or an "im not ready" reason or an "i cant take care of it" reason and men are just at the mercy of the mothers decision. so imo it's fair that a man should be able to abandon responsibility for that baby if he so chooses.

#20 Posted by Dabee (2383 posts) - - Show Bio

Lol that's stupid. REALLY stupid. You have a kid you have to man up and take some responsibility. Pay your damn child support. The money isn't for the mother, it's for the kid.

#21 Posted by Lunacyde (18470 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc:

I believe a woman has a right to control her body and what happens with it. That doesn't mean that I like or condone the action Of having one. Personally I think a woman should take responsibility barring special situations(life of mother, rape, incest).

Abandonment is already a HUGE issue that children face, why would we want to make it easier to abandon a child? Children without fathers are much more likely to do poorly in school and end up in prison. The idea of abandoning your child is even more abhorrent to me than aborton.

#22 Posted by PartialSanity (433 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: This is what I'm talking about. This is just a roundabout way to get people to discuss abortion yet again by putting a scenario which includes abortion.

This proposal would still be unfair to plenty of parties. As it stands it is vastly incomplete and full of political, and mostly religious, propaganda. Life isn't black and white; there are a myriad of different situations which are not encompassed by such a simple-minded proposal. Much like abortion, this isn't that simple.

#23 Edited by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio

@dabee: Is it stupid if a woman aborts a baby? Should she "woman" up?

#24 Posted by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio

@lunacyde: A woman has the option during her pregnancy to abort a baby for any number of reasons. But the fact remains she doesn't have to explain to anybody why. She can just abort. Is it fair for a woman to keep te baby then demand child support for a baby that the father never wanted when if the woman doesnt want te baby she can just go abort it? I don't think either is a good thing to do. I believe that life begins at conception personally. But jut speaking of being fair and balanced I believe that however abhorrent abandonment is, it is fair

#25 Posted by PartialSanity (433 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: It seems this is designed so that whenever someone says "take responsibility," you get to say "So you're saying abortion is wrong?"

#26 Posted by XImpossibruX (5171 posts) - - Show Bio

I would love for this to work but...

A pregnant woman can't work, or take care of a baby and still afford stuff.

so many variables.

#27 Edited by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio

@partialsanity: You're inferring alot of things about me and this topic that are incorrect. First of all the only reason I put the word proposal in the title is because my coworker literally proposed this idea at work. Maybe I Hoyle have picked a different word. Secondly it isn't a roundabout way to get people talking about abortion the topic is specifically about what I will refer to as "abandonment" and it is in the same neighborhood as abortion so it is not roundabout. Abortion is a part of this discussion. Period. Let me clarify my stance. I personally believ life begins at conception and that abortion is wrong and shouldn't be legal except for cases where the mothers life is threatened or it is a rape. Those are my personal beliefs. But since abortion actually is a part of life in America I believ that it is fair for a man to have an option to not have to take care of a child he didnt want or plan for or doesnt feel he is emotionally ready for. Feel free to disagree with me but I wanted to make clear what I think and where I'm coming from

#28 Edited by Dabee (2383 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@dabee: Is it stupid if a woman aborts a baby? Should she "woman" up?

It's her body. She has no say in whether or not a guy cuts anything out of him.

There are no excuses. If you don't want to have a baby, keep your junk in your pants. If you have a baby, you have a responsibility to take care of the baby. The responsibility to take care of the kid and pay child support is not for the mother, it's for the child. There's no excuse and no reason to be a deadbeat dad. None.

#29 Posted by Killemall (18501 posts) - - Show Bio

Sound like an interesting topic to discuss but i am really scared it gonna bring down a sh*t storm soon.

#30 Posted by PartialSanity (433 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: You are making it about abortion though, and not abandonment, you're using abandonment as the excuse to talk about abortion. Every time someone says "take responsibility" you do reply with something about abortion. I know what your beliefs are because I've seen your posts throughout the board over the course of the summer. Which is why this thread is progressing just as I thought it would and that is why as soon as someone mentioned responsibility, I replied with the "So it begins" .gif.

When a child is born, it is not required by law for a man to have anything to do with the child other than to provide child support. If the concern is simply financial, a better proposal would be to set up programs for fathers who are unable to properly maintain a life while paying for child support or are simply unable to pay for child support. If a father would want to relinquish everything to do with this child for some for of ambiguous reason, the case should be reviewed separately.

I've erred in no way. I'm just pointing out certain things. But since you've once again graced us with an explanation on your beliefs, I will grace you with mine. I believe people shouldn't be quick to forge an opinion or take a stance on something without reviewing everything that encompasses certain situations, and in cases like this, where no exact situation has been given, I am surprised so many people have been able to go, "I think this is..."

This proposal is short-sighted, incomplete, and chuck full of propaganda because it works on the premise that abortion is just a mechanic to avoid responsibility. Generalizing things, especially in delicate situations such as this, is more or less useless.

As long as you keep replying to people that say this isn't okay with things about abortion, I will see this thread as nothing more than a bait thread to get people to argue about their stance on abortions, and if that is the case, there are various threads for that.

#31 Posted by dondave (36124 posts) - - Show Bio

Sound like an interesting topic to discuss but i am really scared it gonna bring down a sh*t storm soon.

#32 Edited by _Zombie_ (10383 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@dabee: Is it stupid if a woman aborts a baby? Should she "woman" up?

Not at all. Considering that if the man doesn't want the kid so badly, it's equally his fault for not bothering to use a condom.

Also, he's not the one having to carry a human inside of him for nine months. So taking responsibility if the child is born is the least he can do.

#33 Posted by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio

@_zombie_: condoms don't always work. And it's the least he can do? So if a woman decides "I don't want to have this baby I'm having an abortion and I dot need Anyones consent" that's ok but if she decides "I want to have this baby and it's your responsibility to help me take care of it" that's ok too? That means the man is totally at the mercy of the woman. Explain to me how this idea of "abandonment" is unfair. It just levels the playing field imo

#34 Edited by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio

@partialsanity: Abortion is a part of this discussion. If it bothers you so much then leave. Nobody made you come here. If you refuse to actually listen and talk to me instead of at me I have no interest in continuing this conversation.

And what propaganda is in the OP??? I simply posted about a conversation that was ABOUT ABORTION at my work wherein a coworker of mine presented his idea of "abandonment". Please point out any propaganda in the OP.

#35 Edited by PartialSanity (433 posts) - - Show Bio

@_zombie_: There are cases where a woman will create the situation to get pregnant just to legally bind the man to them via child support and some manage to do it via guilt. It is reprehensible behavior, but it isn't unheard of. I've heard of guys so paranoid that they rinse out their condoms before throwing them away to avoid situations like this.

#36 Posted by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio

@dabee: In your post you say "if you don't want a baby keep your junk in your pants" can't I apply the same logic to a woman who wants an abortion? Keep your panties on. It's ok for a woman to abort but not ok for a man to "abandon"?

#37 Posted by _Zombie_ (10383 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: Condoms are hardly the only form of male contraception.

Because pregnancy is a mentally and physically exhaustive process that lasts nine months. The man doesn't have to do anything but support the mother. He doesn't have to deal with morning sickness, with agonizing back pain, and generally having to adjust their entire life to accommodate having a living creature inside of them.

And not really. He wouldn't be at anyone's mercy if he thought before he put his dck in.

#38 Posted by _Zombie_ (10383 posts) - - Show Bio

@partialsanity: True. But I'm specifically talking about the regular scenario where a consenting man and woman have sex. Special situations, like manipulative women, is a different thing entirely.

#39 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (17823 posts) - - Show Bio

It takes two to tango so to speak therefore both should take equal responsibility to have safe sex. If a woman is able to have the freedom to abort then so should a man so to speak.

So if two consenting adults have sex, simply for pleasure and they do their bit to ensure they have safe sex. They don't intend to get pregnant. And the woman does end up getting pregnant and decides to have a baby despite what they both agreed upon. The man never wanted or intended to be a father. Why should they be forced into it? When its the woman's choice and responsibility to have that baby.

I don't see the logic here.

#40 Posted by PartialSanity (433 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc: I never said it bothered me either. I'm just pointing out that this is a bait thread at heart. I actually think there's something to the topic aside from the silly propaganda. There should be laws that protect men from blackmail via baby.

#42 Posted by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio

@_zombie_: I didn't say they were but they were the example given so I responded to that particular example.

And i think the point is being missed. A woman can decide to abort a pregnancy. Effectively eliminating all financial emotional responsibility and burden. regardless of whether or not the father wants the baby. A man simply is at the mercy of what she decides to do. What my coworker and I believe is that, in order to create a fair playing field, a man should have the option to eliminate all financial emotional responsibility that he has as well. And I could apply that same logic to a girl. She wouldn't have to go through 9 months of gestation if she kept her panties on

#43 Posted by _Zombie_ (10383 posts) - - Show Bio

Tbh I was mostly attacking the question of it being stupid if a woman aborts. Cause seriously, guys really do have it way easier on the physical end of pregnancy.

#44 Posted by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio

@partialsanity: Well you're wrong about it being. Bait thread. And you're wrong about propaganda. Please point out any propaganda of any kind in the OP.

#45 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (17823 posts) - - Show Bio

@_zombie_ said:

@mrdecepticonleader said:

It takes two to tango so to speak therefore both should take equal responsibility to have safe sex. If a woman is able to have the freedom to abort then so should a man so to speak.

So if two consenting adults have sex, simply for pleasure and they do their bit to ensure they have safe sex. They don't intend to get pregnant. And the woman does end up getting pregnant and decides to have a baby despite what they both agreed upon. The man never wanted or intended to be a father. Why should they be forced into it? When its the woman's choice and responsibility to have that baby.

I don't see the logic here.

Yeah, if the woman goes behind the guy's back it's a valid thing. But assuming it's unprotected then the guy really doesn't have the right to complain.

I disagree. If a woman can abort any time, in any circumstance then the man should have a similar right.

#46 Posted by SOG7dc (6971 posts) - - Show Bio
#47 Edited by lykopis (10753 posts) - - Show Bio

@partialsanity said:

@sog7dc: I never said it bothered me either. I'm just pointing out that this is a bait thread at heart. I actually think there's something to the topic aside from the silly propaganda. There should be laws that protect men from blackmail via baby.

This is fair to point out -- it does draw out conversations about abortion between men and women so at the very least, it's a duplicate thread. People are free to expand on their opinions and there's already been a few comments on here which deal directly with the idea of abortion itself. I stayed on-topic but several posters haven't, making mention of manning up and not "believing" in abortions and panties needing to stay on or pants on or whatever. If anything, why aren't there any medications out offering to have a man's semen negated, along the same lines of a birth control pill? Wouldn't that be a more palatable option as it pretty much takes care of the pregnancy side of things (although not STDs).

If women having a baby for the sake of "getting money" (which by the way, is laughable -- and I'm not going to get into why because is freaking obvious for those not purposely remaining ignorant) is a real concern, then get your male birth control pill instead of so much research put into Viagara.

Pro- choice FTW! WOOOOO!!!!!!!!!

#48 Edited by lykopis (10753 posts) - - Show Bio

@sog7dc said:

@mrdecepticonleader: I agree. A man should have an equivalent to abortion.

Seriously -- get the man birth control happening if condoms are so easily tampered with. It takes care of things on that end, somewhat.

#49 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (17823 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@sog7dc said:

@mrdecepticonleader: I agree. A man should have an equivalent to abortion.

Seriously -- get the man birth control happening if condoms are so easily tampered with. It takes care of things on that end, somewhat.

Man birth control?

#50 Posted by _Zombie_ (10383 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: Actually, I think there's a shot a guy can get every six months or so that effectively sterilizes him.