@King Saturn said:
@War Killer said:
@King Saturn said:
@War Killer said:
@Jonny_Anonymous said:
@War Killer said:
@Jonny_Anonymous said:
@War Killer said:
@Jonny_Anonymous said:
@War Killer said:
@Jonny_Anonymous said:
@dccomicsrule2011 said:
@Jonny_Anonymous said:
Why doesn't god decide there is no sin?
What do you mean by that?
At the start when humans or the devil or who ever started the original sin, why doesn't god just decided there was no sin?
Because in the beginning, which is recorded in the book of Genesis of the Bible, when God created the universe and when He created man, Adam and Eve, He created us with something very dangerous: Freewill. The reason He did this is because because He could have easily created us as mindless, soulless slaves who who would worship Him without a question. Looking at it from a human perspective, we know that it is a create form of love to have someone love you willingly and by choice rather than force them to love us, because when you force them is it really even love anymore? No, but when that person WILLINGLY loves you, because they choose to, that's true love. Love, despite what many might say, is not a feeling but is an action. We choose to love one people, this whole idea that we "fall in love" is not true because one does not just fall in love with their boyfriend/girlfriend or their husband/wife, one does not just love their mother or father, their sister or brother; we come to either love or not love them as we come to know them over time. We choose to love them. This is why God gave us the freedom, because He very much so could have chosen to not give us freewill and force us to love Him unconditionally, but like we understand the concept of love I just described, as we are made in His image, God wants His children to willing love Him back. To give us this freedom, God gave us a choice: In the beginning of creation, when He created Adam and Eve He placed them in a place known as the Garden of Eden. Placing Adam and Eve in the garden He gave them a choice: He told them they may eat from any of the trees in the garden except for one tree, the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, for if they did they would certainly die. He choose to give us this choice because it was now up to us to choose whether we would love God or rebel against Him. God created man perfect, without sin which in definition is to "rebel against God", Adam and Eve were created without sin, but the Bible states that while in this garden Satan, in the form of a serpent, tempted Eve with a choice, asking her "did God really say you could eat you can't eat from any tree in the garden?" Now here's where people start getting things confused, most people stop reading here and start blaming God for the serpent being in the garden because if the serpent hadn't been there Eve wouldn't have been tempted and therefore wouldn't have tempted Adam later, right? But here's the kicker, when Eve was tempted by the serpent, SHE WAS PERFECT! She KNEW what God had commanded, which was not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, she knew this yet willingly, because God had given her freewill, choose to disobey God's command, rebel against His authority, which is what we now know as sin. The reason there is sin in the world, the reason there is death and destruction, why our loved ones die, why people get sick, why people kill other people, why people steal, why people rape, why people cry, this is all because WE CHOOSE to sin. Eve willingly choose to sin, who then tempted Adam who was perfect and also knew what God had commanded just as Eve did, but because he had freewill, also choose to rebel against God, sinning. Because of this, they knew both good and evil, and because we are all descendants of Adam and Eve we have inherited this rebellious attitude and therefore is why we kill, steal, lie, cheat, and cry, because we also know good and evil. You see in the beginning, when God created the universe, He had made everything perfect and without sin, this is how in Genesis on the sixth day of creation God could say "it [the universe and everything in it] is very good." Because it was! You see in the beginning there was no sin, it was us through Adam and Eve who allowed sin to enter the world because we choose to willingly rebel against God. The reason sin exist is not because God "allowed it" but because WE allowed it by choosing to rebel against God's authority. But to fully answer your question, "why doesn't God just decide there is no sin?" If you read through the Bible, you will see that since Adam and Eve first rebelled against God and allowed sin to enter into the universe, God had promised Eve that through her redemption for their sin would come, which would eventually come Jesus (who was a decedent of Eve as Jesus was born from Mary) who is fully God and fully man. God came down in the form of His Son, Jesus, dying on the cross, taking upon Himself the punishment for sin, which is death, for us our sins, dying on the cross but proving that He is God and has power over sin and death rose from the grave, conquering it and making way for us to be redeemed of our rebellion which sin. But here's the second kicker, this redemption is a gift which God wants to give to us, but because God is a gentleman and because He wants us to willingly choose to love Him, He has given us a choice to either Believe with all our hearts and all our souls that Jesus, God, came to Earth, lived, dyed on the cross for our sins, was buried but raised Himself from the dead, gaining eternal life and a place in Heaven where there will be NO SIN, or we could decline His gift, of eternal life, therefore continuing to rebel against His authority, continuing to sin, and in the end being punished alongside the devil and his followers, demons, in Hell for eternity. It's our choice, it's our decision, and ultimately it will determine where we will live for eternity: In Heaven with God, where there will be no sin or eternally separated from God in Hell alongside the devil and his followers. The question is what choice are we going to make, that's for us to decide.
It's well within gods power to create perfect pepole that never suffer or sin but that also have freewill
God did create perfect people who didn't suffer or sin and who had freewill, when God created Adam and Eve that is exactly how they were, without sin and with freewill. But because we have freewill we have the ability to choose whether or not we want to obey or disobey God's authority, which is sinning. God didn't allow sin to enter the universe, we did because we willingly choose to disobey His authority.
well in the end they did suffer so his idea of perfect is flawed
Yes they did suffer, but through their own choice. God's idea isn't flawed, He created the universe perfect and without sin, but it was man, it was US, who allowed sin to enter His perfect creation. You're blaming God for our mistakes, but it is us who allowed sin to enter the world and did so, not God.
No it was Gods flaw, if we were truly perfect we would have made the choice not to sin and yet still keep our freewill also. Also why are pepole born as sinners, isn't that judging someone before thy'v even committed a crime?
No, God created us prefect, without sin, and with freewill. But in the book of Genesis it tells us that Satan, in the form of a serpent, tempted Eve and because she had freewill had a choice to either say disagree with Satan, remembering what God had commanded, but instead she gave into the devil's temptation and willingly choose to rebel against God's authority, sinning. Adam and Eve were perfect, but because they had freewill they had the ability to choose and they chose to disobey God. That's the whole point of freewill, it's dangerous because it allowed the ability to make wrong decisions. Perfect means we were without sin and couldn't die, doesn't mean we weren't gullible. The Bible even says while Eve was being tempted that in Genesis 3:6 " Then the woman saw that the tree was good for food and delightful to look at, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom. So she took some of its fruit and ate it; she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." Eve knew it was wrong, but willingly choose to disobey God's command to not eat from it because she literally thought it looked pretty. So once again, no it was not God, it was man who became flawed because we chose to disobey God's command. As for why people are born sinners is because Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, allowing sin to enter the world. So because we are all decadents or Adam and Eve we inherited their sin. This is made clear in Acts 17:26 which states "From one maHe has made every nationality to live over the whole earth and has determined their appointed times and the boundaries of where they live." and Romans 5:12 which states " Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."
Actually, GOD did not make man perfect... for if we was perfect we would be like Jesus... see you can't use the freewill argument anymore if Jesus personifies Perfection... because that means that Perfection is something that's continual and abiding... something that cannot be tarnished by being tricked or tempted by Satan... you literally gave up your argument for Adam and Eve bring perfect when you said Adam and Eve willingly disobeyed GOD... because Perfect People would not do that based on what Jesus did as he showed what Perfection is. Adam and Eve was imperfect for they did not have the tools Jesus had to even defend themselves from the wilds of the Devil let alone could they keep all the commandments under his devilish ways.
Actually, no I didn't. Because you are right as both Adam and Eve were perfect just as Jesus when He was on Earth. Jesus was just as Adam and Eve were when God created them before they disobeyed Him and sinned. Jesus, while on Earth, had the ability to choose to sin as He had freewill just as Adam and Eve did, the difference is that He choose to obey God where Adam and Eve choose to disobey God. This is made clear when Satan tempts Jesus in the wilderness in Matthew 4:1-11 where, while alone in the wilderness fasting for 40 days and 40 nights, the devil comes to tempt Jesus. If you actual read the scripture you can see how both accounts both have something strikingly similar which ultimately explains how Jesus, Adam, and Eve all three could be perfect and have freewill yet how Adam and Eve could still disobey God while Jesus didn't. The reason why is Satan himself literally attacks the Word of God.
In Genesis 3:1 Satan tempts Eve by asking her "Did God really say?" as God had originally given both Adam and Eve one command which was that they could eat from any tree in the garden except for one, which was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Satan, as a serpent, was literally attacking the Word of God and made Eve question what God had originally said, as Eve even pointed out, in Genesis 3:2, that God said that if they ate from the tree her and Adam would surely die, but here again Satan causes her to question God's Word by saying in Genesis 3:4 "'No! You will not die,'" the serpent said to the woman." This caused Eve, who while perfect just as Jesus was in the New Testament, to question God's Word and in the end caused her to stray away from it, disobeying God and in result sinning against Him.
This whole account of temptation by Satan happens once again in Matthew 4:1-11 where Satan approaches Jesus in the wilderness and tempts Him the same way he tempted Eve, which was by attacking the Word of God and trying to cause Jesus to doubt it. As in Matthew 4:5-6 "Then the Devil took Him to the holy city,had Him stand on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, 'If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written: He will give His angels orders concerning you, and they will support you with their hands so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" Satan tried to use God's Word against Jesus, to cause Him to question God's Word, but Jesus replied back to Satan using God's Word against him by stating in Matthew 4:7 "Jesus told him, 'It is also written: Do not test the Lord your God.'" Satan tried to misuse God's Word against Jesus, trying to twist it and cause Jesus to stumble and therefore sin, which Jesus had the ability to do so just as Adam and Eve did because while yes He was perfect like Adam and Eve He also, just as they did, had freewill. And before you start to question me by saying Jesus couldn't sin because "He's Jesus!" I would like to point out that because Jesus, who is God by the way, was in human form just as Adam and Eve were He also faced the same temptations we faced and therefore could have fallen into those same temptations as well; even though Jesus was perfect, just as Adam and Eve were before the fall because He had freewill, just as Adam and Eve did, He also had the ability to disobey God, just as they could and eventually did. But see while Jesus was perfect just as Adam and Eve were before the Fall, He also had their freewill and like them had the ability to choose whether or not they would or wouldn't obey God's authority. The reason why Adam and Eve disobeyed God, sinning, while Jesus didn't is because, unlike Jesus, Adam and Eve did not stand their ground on God's Word. They all had God's Word, Adam and Eve had God's one command and Jesus had the commands of the Old Testament, and they were all tempted by Satan who try to make them questions God's Word. The key difference here which explains how, while all three of them were perfect, Adam and Eve could fall into sin by disobeying God while Jesus didn't, the key difference is that when Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness by trying to cause Him to doubt God's Word, Jesus replied back USING God's Word and STOOD His ground upon God's Word as He not only knew it but believed it, which unlike Eve who knew God's Word and even stated God's Word she did not stand on God's Word and did not believe it as Jesus had. This is the key difference and explains how all three of them could be perfect and have freewill, yet how two could still choose to disobey God's authority while One didn't. It was because Adam and Eve, while they knew God's Word they, DID NOT stand on His Word as the number one authority, which ultimately was their downfall, while Jesus DID stand on God's Word as the number one authority and ultimately was how He remained sin free as He was still obeying God's authority. This is also why it's so important as God's children that we, as His followers, study His Word and as the Bible tells us to in Proverbs 7:3 " Tie them to your fingers; write them on the tablet of your heart." Because Satan still uses that same temptation on us today, by trying to cause us to doubt God's Word by twisting it and trying to use it against us. This is why we MUST as warriors of God know His Word so that when Satan comes to tempt us, just as he did with Adam, Eve, and even Jesus Himself, we are able to be like Jesus as declared, "It is also written!" and refute Satan's trickery.
Do you really understand all that you have written here ? I thought I made what I said clear, the reason why Adam and Eve was not created perfect is because they "Lacked" the tools to combat Satan's tricks and deception while Jesus "Did Not Lack" anything... remember when Adam and Eve was in the Garden, Eve only rebutted Satan with what GOD had told her but she lacked understanding of Good and Evil because THAT KNOWLEDGE WAS ON THE TREE ITSELF, same with Adam, they only knew what God had told them and what the Serpent had told them... but they did not have a way of understanding the deception that was happening to them because they "Lacked" understanding of Good and Evil. Now Jesus on the other hand, understood Good and Evil and he knew the Scriptures as well to beat back the Wilds of Satan when he was tempted by him. That's The Difference, Jesus had more of an Arsenal to battle Satan with then Adam and Eve had, and on top of that Jesus was abounding in his perfection... he did not lose it yet he had Free Will. See you have to look at the big picture... understand that if Jesus personifies Perfection that means that Adam and Eve would have had to been like Jesus ? But did Adam and Eve know Scripture like Jesus ? Did Adam and Eve have the ability to perceive Good and Evil like Jesus ? Did Adam and Eve really even realize they was talking to Satan in the Garden as Jesus knew he was speaking with the Prince of Darkness in the Wilderness ? Look a little more deeper at what you are driving at dude.
But you're missing the point in that Adam and Eve did have the same tools that Jesus did, they both had the Word of God. Both had the same "tools" which was what God had commanded them with, God had commanded them in Genesis 2:16-17 " And the Lord God commanded the man, 'You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, but you must not eatfrom the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die.' " and Jesus had the whole Old Testament. They both had the same tools, so stop saying they didn't or that they "lacked" them because both had the same tools which was the Word of God.
Jesus was just as Adam and Eve were before the Fall, that's why in 1 Corinthians 15:45 Paul refers to Jesus as the "Last Adam" as He was like Adam before he fell into sin. This would mean that Jesus, like Adam and Eve, was perfect and like them also had freewill to choose. They all were created perfect, without sin, and with freewill.
You keep placing Jesus as if His perfection were in some way different than Adam and Eve's when He was on Earth in human form, but you're mistaken as Jesus was just like Adam and Eve were before the Fall, in the same perfection God had originally created them to be. He was not on some higher level of perfection because Paul clearly compares Him to Adam by calling Him the "Last Adam". If He were on some higher level of perfection that the first Adam, Jesus wouldn't be the "Last Adam" He would be the "Better" or "Superior Adam" but Paul clearly calls Him the "Last Adam, therefore putting Him at equal to Adam before the Fall.
Now this whole idea that Jesus somehow knew more than Adam and Eve is true in a sense that yes Jesus did have the Old Testament, but ultimately He had God's Word just as Adam and Eve also had God's Word which was His command to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Which really, when you think about it, Jesus technically had it harder has He had to learn the entire Old Testament where all God told Adam and Eve was ONE command, and if they didn't follow it they would die. So the idea that Jesus had it easier because He had to memorize literally 39 books where all Adam and Eve had to know and follow one command is absurd because what would be easier? Memorizing and following one word or memorizing and following the command of 39 books? Do the math, it would be easier to memorize one than 39.
But either way, bottom line it, Adam and Eve's disobedience has noting to do with the "tools" they had as, which I already made clear, Adam and Eve both had the same tools Jesus had, the WORD OF GOD. The big picture is that Satan caused Adam and Eve to stumble and fall into disobedience, sin, by causing them to doubt God's Word. Whether or not they knew the serpent was Satan or not, or whether he was even "evil" doesn't make a difference as all they needed to know was that God was the highest authority, which they did know; that God was their Creator, which they did know; and that this serpent obviously wasn't God, which they had to of known seeing as the serpent, who was the devil, was trying to make them question God's very own words.
The key difference which explains how you have can three people who were all on the same level of perfection and all had freewill, who all three had the same tool which was God's Word, was that one, Jesus, stood on God's Word as the ultimate authority where Adam and Eve didn't. That's where the three differ, all three were tempted with the doubt of God's Word and all three had the Word of God and knew it, but the bottom line is that Jesus stood on His belief in God's Word where Adam an Eve choose to sway from God's Word, which in result caused them to fall into sin.
The big picture here is that Adam, Eve, and Jesus were all three perfect and with freewill, all three had God's Word, and all three were tempted by the same temptation of doubting God's Word, but ultimately it came down to one choice: Do I follow God's Word or do I ignore God's Word? Jesus choose to follow God's Word where Adam and Eve choose not to. That's the big picture, all three were the same and all three had the freewill to choose, the downfall of Adam and Eve was that they did not put their faith in God's Word as the ultimate authority which was the only tool and knowledge they needed.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Look, I've made my point, I have used the Word of God and that, just as Jesus did, is where I put my faith. I've used the Bible to prove my points over and over again and you can look those same verses I have listed and read them for yourself, as anyone else who reads my posts can, but I'm tired of arguing about this. If you don't believe me, fine, but all of what I have said comes directly from the Word of God; what I have written in this thread are all what the Holy Spirit has made clear to me and are what I believe and stand upon, if you disagree that's fine but I'm done arguing about this. What I have said is the truth, it is the scriptures, it is the Word of God. It is the solid rock from which I stand upon, it is the foundation for my life. I believe it, I know it, I put my faith in it, and I will always defend it. But for now I done.
Log in to comment