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#51 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@tigerkaya said:

I never liked the idea of Uncanny Avengers to begin with. It felt extremely forced after AvsX pretty much showed the two teams hating each other fighting without mercy and with extreme prejudice. The two teams should have cut out any and all communications with one another right their. As to the idea of an Avenger joining the X-men I find that unlikely. The X-men would just kick them out with their prejudice of someone working with the government and due to lack of an X-gene. To me the X-men are just as big hypocrites as the Avengers only difference the X-men are far worst with their claim of coexistence.

Valid point. That should be addressed and yet, isn't.

@polarity said:

The x-men have never been about "defending the mutant race" at most they've been a superhero advocacy group. There motto should be something akin to "don't hate us, respect us". If there is any adherence to Xavier's philosophy, there should be non-mutant members in the X-men or having a non-X-men mutant advocacy group featuring non-mutants, because that would be the ultimate expression of Xavier's dream. The Uncanny Avengers should be a prime example of that, but I think there missing a prime opportunity to tell a true proper story. AvX was a terrible lead-in for the series and having everyone in the series act like children isn't helping out much.

AvX was a forced and nonsensical story-line. Once I was aware of a new book coming out titled Uncanny Avengers, I knew more illogical consequences were coming. X-Men Assemble is no where in the making -- why not? Oh yes, that's right. Movies. That's why.

#52 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: Its not addressed because X-Writers want to hammer into our heads that the X-men will always be right about everything and how "victimized" they are.

#53 Edited by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

Now here are what the X-men mythos would keep if they were separated:

Phoenix

Every spinoff X-title

Excalibur

Shiar

anti mutant organizations

all mutants and humans that have the "strongest" ties to the X-men mythos and members and not counting Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver.

Savage Land

Genosha

#54 Posted by Black_Arrow (3413 posts) - - Show Bio

mutants can be united in the marvel u without begin extremely forced. mutate like spiderman can be divided in 3 category

God: you know that every son of Odin is going to have superpowers but he can never create a race of them.

superhuman: achieved by science: they only show how much humans have evolve their intellect.

Accidents: they are rare only happens a few times and the consider themselves as humans.

mutants on the other side appear in big numbers and can be the child of anyone and they consider themselves as part of other race

#55 Posted by Rabbitearsblog (5947 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@tigerkaya said:

I never liked the idea of Uncanny Avengers to begin with. It felt extremely forced after AvsX pretty much showed the two teams hating each other fighting without mercy and with extreme prejudice. The two teams should have cut out any and all communications with one another right their. As to the idea of an Avenger joining the X-men I find that unlikely. The X-men would just kick them out with their prejudice of someone working with the government and due to lack of an X-gene. To me the X-men are just as big hypocrites as the Avengers only difference the X-men are far worst with their claim of coexistence.

Valid point. That should be addressed and yet, isn't.

@polarity said:

The x-men have never been about "defending the mutant race" at most they've been a superhero advocacy group. There motto should be something akin to "don't hate us, respect us". If there is any adherence to Xavier's philosophy, there should be non-mutant members in the X-men or having a non-X-men mutant advocacy group featuring non-mutants, because that would be the ultimate expression of Xavier's dream. The Uncanny Avengers should be a prime example of that, but I think there missing a prime opportunity to tell a true proper story. AvX was a terrible lead-in for the series and having everyone in the series act like children isn't helping out much.

AvX was a forced and nonsensical story-line. Once I was aware of a new book coming out titled Uncanny Avengers, I knew more illogical consequences were coming. X-Men Assemble is no where in the making -- why not? Oh yes, that's right. Movies. That's why.

I agree that Avengers vs. X-Men was just way too forced out. I actually wished that many of the current events didn't happened because of AvX. Maybe I would have been happy with the changes that happened now if it was after a better event that actually fleshed out the characters and gave valid reasons about them fighting each other.

#56 Posted by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultra_beleco: But heres the thing in the cartoons the X-men could still sell the whole "world against them" without the Marvel U. So why is it such a problem if the X-men line is separated from the Marvel U. entirely its not going to make much of a big deal. The X-men can still have their stories of prejudice minus the Marvel U. and the Marvel U. will be just fine without the X-men mythos. After all Marvel took out The Avengers, Fantastic Four, Doctor Doom and the Hulk out of the Marvel U. entirely after one of the X-men's messes from Onslaught. Really the Marvel will be doing fans of both sides to have the Marvel U. and X-men mythos separated.

1 - First, there was only one cartoon of the x-men that I've watched and the Marvel universe is there, in one of the episodes Capitain america is the protagonist with wolverine on the other the main villain is the higher evolutionary. By the way, I believe in the cartoons the sentinels appears, and also aliens...so you're scared by mutants but not by super strong giant robots? Or more advanced alien societies? It still wouldn't make sense according to your point of view.

2 - X-men stories are not about "World against them" is about prejudice, growing up, finding your own place, and fighting for your beliefs, they are not simply criminals running away, a story about "world against them" can happen without any kind of prejudice attached to it.

3 - I'd rather have the X-men mythos separeted from Marvel by the simply fact that I deslike most of marvel heroes.

4 - Today Marvel can separete X-men from the marvel universe, but sometime ago that would be impossible, when I was a kid X-men were more popular than all the other heroes except maybe Spider-man. Without X-men just a few decades ago Marvel wouldn't even have a recognizable female hero outside the comics, maybe invisible woman could be an excpetion.

#57 Posted by DH69 (4258 posts) - - Show Bio

Personally other than a hand full of individuals, i've never cared for mutants (i find it lazy writing to get ur powers at puberty cause of a genetic mutation), but putting them in their own universe just sounds stupid

#58 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultra_beleco: But heres the thing in the cartoons the X-men could still sell the whole "world against them" without the Marvel U. So why is it such a problem if the X-men line is separated from the Marvel U. entirely its not going to make much of a big deal. The X-men can still have their stories of prejudice minus the Marvel U. and the Marvel U. will be just fine without the X-men mythos. After all Marvel took out The Avengers, Fantastic Four, Doctor Doom and the Hulk out of the Marvel U. entirely after one of the X-men's messes from Onslaught. Really the Marvel will be doing fans of both sides to have the Marvel U. and X-men mythos separated.

1 - First, there was only one cartoon of the x-men that I've watched and the Marvel universe is there, in one of the episodes Capitain america is the protagonist with wolverine on the other the main villain is the higher evolutionary. By the way, I believe in the cartoons the sentinels appears, and also aliens...so you're scared by mutants but not by super strong giant robots? Or more advanced alien societies? It still wouldn't make sense according to your point of view.

2 - X-men stories are not about "World against them" is about prejudice, growing up, finding your own place, and fighting for your beliefs, they are not simply criminals running away, a story about "world against them" can happen without any kind of prejudice attached to it.

3 - I'd rather have the X-men mythos separeted from Marvel by the simply fact that I deslike most of marvel heroes.

4 - Today Marvel can separete X-men from the marvel universe, but sometime ago that would be impossible, when I was a kid X-men were more popular than all the other heroes except maybe Spider-man. Without X-men just a few decades ago Marvel wouldn't even have a recognizable female hero outside the comics, maybe invisible woman could be an excpetion.

1. Oh I'm not scarred of mutants I just find the Marvel U. would be better off without them. Yes you make a valid point that Captain America and the High Evolutionary have made appearances in the cartoons but the primary showcase was always the X-men mythos. The sentinels can go as well they are after all pert of the X-men mythos the Shiar they can go as well.

2. I stand corrected on there message, which is why I find the X-men's "A world that hates and fears them" work much better in their own separate universe where the hate against them is more possible since they are the only super powered beings.

3. And I'd rather have the X-men separated by the simple fact that I grow tired of every crossover involving them either bitching at the Marvel heroes for not helping them and how every meeting crossover with other heroes leads to a pointless Vs. story.

4. I agree that the X-men have garnered the most recognizable of number of female heroes. But Marvel has also been developing more female heroes in the Marvel U. as well so their that part is irrelevant. The Marvel U. will still work just as fine without the X-men mythos.

#59 Edited by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

As to how I see the Uncanny Avengers team, I see it as a forced union that nobody wanted to involve themselves in. The team itself is basically members having their hand tied to the other while while holding a rusty dagger in the other hand. Its a forced and an unnecessary team that thinks itself in improving human and mutant relations when in reality it's only making the problem worse. Its better to leave the mutant problems soley to the X-men.

#60 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

I always found the X-men mythos out of place like a puzzle that just doesn't fit. The X-men I feel have no real connection to the Marvel U. other than crossover events that led to them in a pissing match of VS. Most of the stories told are insular and when a Team Up happens X writers feel compelled to have the X-men complain to The Avengers of how they never help them or the Genosha massacre even though that happened the same time Kang Dynasty had Kang engulf the entire planet in war. Yet Genosha always seems the prevalent in these arguments just so the X-men can guilt heroes and hammer in just how "victimized" they are. With that I say why not throw the entire X-men mythos into a separate universe worked for DC's "Earth 1" title and Wonder Woman by JMS. I don't see the problem for the X-men. After all the 90's cartoon and Evolution showed the X-men perfectly capable of being fine separated from the Marvel Universe.

I have to disagree with this.

The shared universe is one of the most interesting things about the MU, and way too much cool history would be undone by separating the X-men's part of the story from it. There'd be no Cap's kooky quartet,since Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch would never have been Avengers. So no SW and Vision. Beast would have never been an Avenger, or Wolverine. Both Rogue and Captain Marvel's stories would be completely different. Where would Franklin Richards fit in? There'd be no Marvel Superheroes Secret Wars, or the New Mutants in Asgard; there'd be no House of M, and there'd be no Uncanny Avengers (which is my favorite Avengers book in years).

Even if one were to retcon out all of the great connections between the X-men and the rest of the MU (which would be a real waste, in my opinion), I actually think it adds to the element of prejudice against mutants (which is among their core themes) that they live in a world with other super-powered people who aren't persecuted, thus strengthening that element of their story.

And, honestly, I just can't think of any good reason to separate them. I don't think the stories need to be connected or cross over all the time, but that they exist in the same world certainly makes any of those part of a much richer and more interesting world.

#61 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I find he prejudice element most strong in the X-men when they are separated from the Marvel U. Examples being cartoons and movies. Their fight is much greater and struggle more. In the Marvel U. whenever the crossover it always ends up with the X-men being sanctimonious on anyway for not helping them more but than again I also blame the X-writers too. Not to mention the majority of them crossing over ends up being a pointless "VS". As to the lost of other crossovers of New Mutants Asgard, House Of M, Secret Wars, Rogue and Ms.Marvel I see it as necessary and beneficial seperation. As to Scarlett Witch, Quicksilver and Franklin no worry since they had very little ties to the X-men mytho's they can stay in the Marvel U. Just change their parents from mutants to Eternals and Franklin will say he gained his powers from one of Reed's experiments from standing to close. But if we had to have them live in the same universe I'd rather the X-men and Avengers stay hated rival, enemies similar fashion to Rogue and Captain Marvel, Flash and Green Arrow, DKR Batman and Superman, Magneto and Red Skull, and Deadpool and Wolverine. Both teams holding a rusty dagger to stab the other team should a fight ensue.

#62 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I find he prejudice element most strong in the X-men when they are separated from the Marvel U. Examples being cartoons and movies. Their fight is much greater and struggle more.

I disagree. I think that without the hypocrisy of some super-powered people being excepted as heroes while mutants are feared as a whole, the general fear of mutants can somehow be justified because of their powers, thus weakening the analogy.

As to the lost of other crossovers of New Mutants Asgard, House Of M, Secret Wars, Rogue and Ms.Marvel I see it as necessary and beneficial seperation. As to Scarlett Witch, Quicksilver and Franklin no worry since they had very little ties to the X-men mytho's they can stay in the Marvel U. Just change their parents from mutants to Eternals

Except that they were Magneto's children, original members of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, Quicksilver was on X-factor, and Scarlet Witch "decimated" the mutant population in House of M.

I don't see the separation as "necessary" or "beneficial". Besides making a lot of classic elements of the stories impossible, both universes would have far less villains and other supporting characters to draw from. Characters like Mystique, Juggernaut, Arcade, Magneto, Doom, Loki, Namor, Captain Britain, etc would have to be split between the two worlds, giving both less story options. And that seems like even more of a waste.

But if we had to have them live in the same universe I'd rather the X-men and Avengers stay hated rival, enemies similar fashion to Rogue and Captain Marvel,

but.. why?

#63 Edited by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: no the whole humans fearing mutants was the fact that humans were afraid of being replaced by mutants in evolution. I despise House of M and the event that came before. It practically ruined Wanda's character. Most of those X-villains were still by default recurring X-foes so if a few X-villains are gone from the Marvel U. I see no problem in the loss. Oh that's nonsense both universes can still tell great stories even if their not connected. As to the why, I never saw the X-men and Avengers as allies just ignorant allies not giving a damn about the other and just generalizing in assumptions of who the are. Besides the X-men hate anyone working with governments just like Avengers hate them for being outlaws. It's better this way than trying to put this forced fake facade friendship like Uncanny Avengers which will eventually crumble.

#64 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: no the whole humans fearing mutants was the fact that humans were afraid of being replaced by mutants in evolution.

That's only part of it, and isn't really knowledge that the general public (in the MU) would be aware of.

I despise House of M and the event that came before.

so? that story shouldn't have happened just because you didn't like it?

Most of those X-villains were still by default recurring X-foes so if a few X-villains are gone from the Marvel U. I see no problem in the loss.

I do. It just seems like a waste for no good reason.

Oh that's nonsense both universes can still tell great stories even if their not connected.

I'm not saying that's not true, I just can't see how it would make anything better. If you don't like reading Marvel comics with X-men characters in them, you don't really have to; there's lots that don't. I don't know how eliminating the story options for everyone else would make things better.

As to the why, I never saw the X-men and Avengers as allies just ignorant allies not giving a damn about the other and just generalizing in assumptions of who the are. Besides the X-men hate anyone working with governments just like Avengers hate them for being outlaws. It's better this way than trying to put this forced fake facade friendship like Uncanny Avengers which will eventually crumble.

Have you read Uncanny Avengers? because I think it's great, and I think it's my favorite Avengers book in years. I think Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch being Magneto's kids is great, I think Beast being an Avenger is great, and Wolverine, Rogue, Havoc, and Sunfire; I think Captain Marvel being an X-man was great, and her and Rogue's old rivalry was great, and Wolverine and Hulk's, and Magneto and Red Skull; I think the Marvel Superheroes Secret War was great, and the Asgardian Wars, and Marvels, and House of M; hell, I even think the Champions was great.

In one way, I kind of understand where you're coming from; I personally don't like when Marvel characters cross over with DC/Image/Star Trek/Transformers/etc, but I just don't read those books.

#65 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7714 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's where the X-Men don't make sense in the greater MU: people hate and fear them because they're "mutants" and yet characters like Spider-Man or Thor are A-OK? This is presumably the case because their origins are different? How many everyday "common people" in the MU even know what the origins of these characters are? It's a stretch that has always felt forced and irrational.

This

I feel if the X-Men were given their own universe under the Marvel brand things would make more sense. Would prefer that than Wolverine running around with the Avengers and them both.

But to completely get rid of the X-Men as the OP wants? Nah, X-Men are a primary reason people are fans of Marvel in the first place.

#66 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil:

Agreed getting tired of seeing Wolverine being in multiple books that would be a bonus to placing him in the separated X--men mythos universe. I admit first glance the title thread I wrote did suggest that Marvel should erase the X-men mythos, but my intent was that Marvel should as you put them in their own separate universe similar fashion to DC placing all the golden age characters in the Earth 1 series.

#67 Posted by PowerHerc (84994 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the Marvel Universe is better with the X-Men mythos.

The X-Men not being as integrated into the Marvel Universe as they should be is largely due to Claremont's convoluted vision for Marvel's mutants.

#68 Posted by Brazen_Intellect (1144 posts) - - Show Bio

It does not make sense, anymore

Marvel has done just about everything possible to blow up any kind of common sense and continuity in exchange for widescreen action to fuel events. There was a time not too long ago where it all fit together quite nicely.

#69 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerherc: But the X-men stories are so insular you wouldn't notice they were part of the Marvel Universe. Having them separated into their own line minus being integrated with the Marvel U. wouldn't be that big of a deal after all readers of the X-men books want to read about them facing solely mutant problems, anti mutant organizations, and their fight against prejudice. At least separated the stories of them being the only super powered being is more believable. Where as in the Marvel U. you have to scratch your head and wonder how do citizens know the difference between super humans and mutants. There okay with beings like the Fantastic Four yet with mutants "Get out the pitchforks and torches!!"

#70 Edited by PowerHerc (84994 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerherc: But the X-men stories are so insular you wouldn't notice they were part of the Marvel Universe. Having them separated into their own line minus being integrated with the Marvel U. wouldn't be that big of a deal after all readers of the X-men books want to read about them facing solely mutant problems, anti mutant organizations, and their fight against prejudice. At least separated the stories of them being the only super powered being is more believable. Where as in the Marvel U. you have to scratch your head and wonder how do citizens know the difference between super humans and mutants. There okay with beings like the Fantastic Four yet with mutants "Get out the pitchforks and torches!!"

The X-Men stories were insular but they didn't have to be. The fans didn't demand that; Marvel editorial/Claremont decided to take that route. And who says readers only want to see X-Men face mutant problems, anti-mutant organizations and their fight against prejudice? I read the X-books and I didn't want them to stay in their own respective "corner" of the Marvel U. Also, While those are all good, worthy and interesting themes; why limit the X-Men to just those things? That seems kind of narrow and unnecessary considering how great many of the characters are.

#71 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerherc: But thats the X-men's theme is it not? There not the traditional superhero team, their the equivalent of an activist/rebels that fight to stop prejudice and try (and I use that term loosely) to advocate for co-existence. Its their niche take that away and their nothing special other than people born with powers fighting together. For instance the Fantastic Four's theme is exploration, Avengers the premier super team of the U.S., Secret and X-Force covert teams, and Defenders to be called upon when a great danger comes. See Every team has theme not just the X-men.

#72 Posted by ShadowX (1218 posts) - - Show Bio

The x-men have had various non mutant members and allies.

Moira is one. Captain Britain( powers come merlin nit x-gene. Although he was on an off choot team. Carol Danvers was on the tema for quite a bit from my underatanding. And a few others.

And the reason the x-men don't really have that many on the team because the Xavier Institue was supposed to be a safe space( not saying it is/wS. But it was supposed to be) for mutants. So that they can learn and grow about themselves, their powers, and the history of mutants. Free from the pepople who discrimnated against them, just like how there are LGBT safe spaces, and PoC safe spaces, and safe spacea for woman in modern social justice movements. These places are designed for peopole of minorities/discriminated against can discuss their thoughts without the opressors spekaing over them. And an Avenger or non mutant hero walking in and saying they are a member no unvited, would be like a straight person walking into a lgbt safe space, or a white person walking into a poc safe space, or a man walking into a womans safe space.

Because mutants are the minority. They have had robots of destruction sent b the government to destroy them. They have been put into concentration camps. They have been the victims of riots.

As for them no making sense it really does make sense.

Spiderman has been feared too

The Avengers have been feared as well. And when they haven you have to remember they are a government sanctioned team most of the time.

Fantastic four have an open identity and are border line celeberties.

Black panther is the king of a nation, so he isnt a fear in a typical threat.

The punisher is seen as crazy( which he is)

Etc lots of people have been feared or have reasons no to be.

And as others have stated, there is the unknown factor. Anybody can be a mutant or grow up to be a mutant. They are a new race. Its practically like the red scare of the 1920s or 1950s. Or like other people said. The people are simply ignornat, just like how people maybe scared of LGBT people, its because they are ignorant and dont understand, so they hate i because its not the same and they dont understand why

Sorry for the typos. I'm typing from my phone and its difficult to edit from there

#73 Posted by PowerHerc (84994 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerherc: But thats the X-men's theme is it not? There not the traditional superhero team, their the equivalent of an activist/rebels that fight to stop prejudice and try (and I use that term loosely) to advocate for co-existence. Its their niche take that away and their nothing special other than people born with powers fighting together. For instance the Fantastic Four's theme is exploration, Avengers the premier super team of the U.S., Secret and X-Force covert teams, and Defenders to be called upon when a great danger comes. See Every team has theme not just the X-men.

Sure, that's their theme. Having a theme shouldn't prohibit any group from being part of and participating in the broad-scope Marvel Universe. The FF are explorers but still engage or aid others against major threats. The Avengers do not strictly fight only Earth shattering threats, despite their rep. I guess you like the idea that they should be relegated to strictly mutant matters but I think the Marvel Universe is better when any and all of it's inhabitants have the potential to crossover into each others' areas.

#74 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

The X-Men stories were insular but they didn't have to be. The fans didn't demand that; Marvel editorial/Claremont decided to take that route. And who says readers only want to see X-Men face mutant problems, anti-mutant organizations and their fight against prejudice? I read the X-books and I didn't want them to stay in their own respective "corner" of the Marvel U. Also, While those are all good, worthy and interesting themes; why limit the X-Men to just those things? That seems kind of narrow and unnecessary considering how great many of the characters are.

exactly.

Sure, that's their theme. Having a theme shouldn't prohibit any group from being part of and participating in the broad-scope Marvel Universe. The FF are explorers but still engage or aid others against major threats. The Avengers do not strictly fight only Earth shattering threats, despite their rep. I guess you like the idea that they should be relegated to strictly mutant matters but I think the Marvel Universe is better when any and all of it's inhabitants have the potential to crossover into each others' areas.

well said!

#75 Posted by NorrinBoltagonPrime21 (6084 posts) - - Show Bio

I've always felt the X-men were somewhat separated from the marvel universe. When ever I think of the X-men, they seem distant from the rest of the MU and kinda on their own. That being said, The X-men shouldn't be separated from the MU. They still play an important part in events and have a large influence. Also, putting them in their own universe wouldn't solve any problems. It's still the same characters and stories so why not enjoy the freedom of having the entire MU?

#76 Edited by PowerHerc (84994 posts) - - Show Bio
#77 Posted by Jnr6Lil (7714 posts) - - Show Bio

Thing is once you start taking X-Men out of the prejudice storylines they now become an average superhero team along with the Avengers.

#78 Posted by Z3RO180 (6618 posts) - - Show Bio

Actually no I disagree even though I'm not a big xmen fan I do think they play a pretty big part of the Marvel mythos

Online
#79 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@jnr6lil: exactly, that's why placing them in their own universe would be more beneficial for them. They get to have all their fights against prejudice and a world that hate and fear them without trying to at as if they are part of the Marvel U.

#80 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@shadowx: while its true other heroes have been feared by the public the difference between them and the X-men is guys theAvengers know how turn the tables on politicians and hold press conferences to calm public fear. Where as X-men the do little in quelling mutant fear and let it spread like fire. The only time they did use the public on their side was AvsX when Cyclops decided to make h public be against the Avengers, disgusting. He could ave saved more mutant lives with that tactic. My problem with X-men again is how does the public know which one is mutant, the fact that humans are written in majority to hate mutants with no counter arguments against the hate. I've seen it before when a group of protesters were arguing with one another of whether Namor should sty in the Avengers. So why couldn't the same be applied to the X-men. With that I say throw them to another universe let them continue telling their tale of a world that hates and fears them.

#81 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

@shadowx: while its true other heroes have been feared by the public the difference between them and the X-men is guys theAvengers know how turn the tables on politicians and hold press conferences to calm public fear. Where as X-men the do little in quelling mutant fear and let it spread like fire. The only time they did use the public on their side was AvsX when Cyclops decided to make h public be against the Avengers, disgusting. He could ave saved more mutant lives with that tactic. My problem with X-men again is how does the public know which one is mutant, the fact that humans are written in majority to hate mutants with no counter arguments against the hate.

I actually think that's one of the reasons why characters in the MU would be afraid of them more than other characters who define themselves as heroes.

With that I say throw them to another universe let them continue telling their tale of a world that hates and fears them.

for the benefit of no one!

#82 Edited by kid Apollo (714 posts) - - Show Bio

ive always seen the X-men and Avengers as two of the 4 corners of the Marvel U. the X-men obviously representing the 'dangerous minority', in todays day and age with everyone so worried about being politically correct they need some group of people to be looked down on. clearly Marvel isnt going to target people of African descent, or Native Americans, or homosexuals or any 'real world' race/religion/class/creed. so mutants are used to show a desperate group fighting for its own survival. the FF have always been in the public spotlight, their identities, powers, and battles are known worldwide, and anyone saying Spidey is loved by the New York populace isnt quite right, JJJ spent decades slandering Spidey's good name, turning him into a 'menace' and trying to ruin his rep, it wasnt until Spider Island, when people started to relate, that he got any respect for the things hes done.

the Avengers will always be the premier super heroes of the Marvel U, its pretty much a fact! theyre also at the opposite end of the spectrum then the X-men. one represents the ideals of society while the other is hated and feared. taking the X-men out of the main Marvel U would upset the balance of AvX(not the crossover). i think instead that they should cut back on the number of interactions between the 2 groups, and cut the Uncanny Avengers all together. with less crossing over you make the times they meet up have more of an impact, more 'holy sh*t the Avenger and the Xmen, side by side!' moments. and cut down the number of X-men on the Avengers, Wolverine, Sunspot, Cannonball, Beast, Storm, Rogue, Sunfire, and Havok all being Avengers withing the last 3 or so years is ridiculous!

#83 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

ive always seen the X-men and Avengers as two of the 4 corners of the Marvel U. the X-men obviously representing the 'dangerous minority', in todays day and age with everyone so worried about being politically correct they need some group of people to be looked down on. clearly Marvel isnt going to target people of African descent, or Native Americans, or homosexuals or any 'real world' race/religion/class/creed. so mutants are used to show a desperate group fighting for its own survival. the FF have always been in the public spotlight, their identities, powers, and battles are known worldwide, and anyone saying Spidey is loved by the New York populace isnt quite right, JJJ spent decades slandering Spidey's good name, turning him into a 'menace' and trying to ruin his rep, it wasnt until Spider Island, when people started to relate, that he got any respect for the things hes done.

the Avengers will always be the premier super heroes of the Marvel U, its pretty much a fact! theyre also at the opposite end of the spectrum then the X-men. one represents the ideals of society while the other is hated and feared. taking the X-men out of the main Marvel U would upset the balance of AvX(not the crossover).

totally with you so far..

i think instead that they should cut back on the number of interactions between the 2 groups, and cut the Uncanny Avengers all together.

but wait! have you read it? it's quite good!

with less crossing over you make the times they meet up have more of an impact, more 'holy sh*t the Avenger and the Xmen, side by side!' moments.

well, I can actually kinda see your point there..

Wolverine, Sunspot, Cannonball, Beast, Storm, Rogue, Sunfire, and Havok all being Avengers withing the last 3 or so years is ridiculous!

Why?

do you mean because so many of them have? or is there something particular about those characters that makes them unworthy to be Avengers?

#84 Posted by kid Apollo (714 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: ive read bits and pieces, not the whole series so far but the odd issue or 2. i dont mind it, i just dont like the concept of the team. and with the various members of the X-men joining the Avengers i come back to 'impact' points, but more to do with the Avengers. they used to be a team of the Earths mightiest heroes! but the last decade or so they've really opened up the rosters, many times to which ever heroes were present. 7 of the 8 X-men members ive mentioned have joined with the period since Avengers Disassembled. some members i can get on board with such as Wolverine and Storm (for what i think are clear reasons). some i jus dont get, but theres also a good number of Avengers that i think shouldnt have joined as well. i think its a case of over-saturation. less is more

#85 Edited by Rabbitearsblog (5947 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: ive read bits and pieces, not the whole series so far but the odd issue or 2. i dont mind it, i just dont like the concept of the team. and with the various members of the X-men joining the Avengers i come back to 'impact' points, but more to do with the Avengers. they used to be a team of the Earths mightiest heroes! but the last decade or so they've really opened up the rosters, many times to which ever heroes were present. 7 of the 8 X-men members ive mentioned have joined with the period since Avengers Disassembled. some members i can get on board with such as Wolverine and Storm (for what i think are clear reasons). some i jus dont get, but theres also a good number of Avengers that i think shouldnt have joined as well. i think its a case of over-saturation. less is more

I agree. I definitely didn't mind that Beast joined the Avengers early on, but now so many X-Men members are joining the Avengers and you have to wonder how will fans be able to read both Avengers and X-Men just to see their favorite characters, even if they don't think that they should be on separate teams?

#86 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: ive read bits and pieces, not the whole series so far but the odd issue or 2. i dont mind it, i just dont like the concept of the team. and with the various members of the X-men joining the Avengers i come back to 'impact' points, but more to do with the Avengers. they used to be a team of the Earths mightiest heroes! but the last decade or so they've really opened up the rosters, many times to which ever heroes were present. 7 of the 8 X-men members ive mentioned have joined with the period since Avengers Disassembled. some members i can get on board with such as Wolverine and Storm (for what i think are clear reasons). some i jus dont get, but theres also a good number of Avengers that i think shouldnt have joined as well. i think its a case of over-saturation. less is more

I think that all of the X-men or former X-men that have joined the team in that time have proven themselves as much as (if not more than) most other Avengers by the time they join the team. Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye? Vision had only been on two missions when he joined (and the first one was to kill them), Ironman, Antman, and Wasp had only just become heroes when they formed the team. I don't know why people think the Avengers are so elitist.

I agree. I definitely didn't mind that Beast joined the Avengers early on, but now so many X-Men members are joining the Avengers and you have to wonder how will fans be able to read both Avengers and X-Men just to see their favorite characters, even if they don't think that they should be on separate teams?

I don't see how that makes it a problem. I read X-men and Avengers books, and I'm glad that the Uncanny Avengers has the team it has. I'm way more interested in seeing Havoc, Sunfire, Rogue, Beast, and Wolverine on the Avengers more than I am to see them on the X-men. And half of them are (kinda) on both. How does that make it hard?

I mean, I do kinda think Cannonball should be on the X-men, but I wouldn't say we should cancel Avengers over that.

#87 Edited by kid Apollo (714 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: you kinda fed into my point there, i dont think the Avengers should invite so many members to join the team. Storm was a member for what? 3 months? before NOW took over and she was dropped, Wolverines gona be a mainstay for the Avengers for a long time coming, Cannonball on multiple occasions has proven hes bigger then the New Mutants would allow him to be. but guys like Sunfire, i like the whole redemption angle theyre playing with him but most recently he was a bad-guy, and before that was decades of him being a prick to the X-men and other heroes. yes hes got power, yes he represents a demographic that the Avengers dont currently have, yes i would like to see him in a book, but i dont think he has earned a spot of the 'Earths Mightiest Heroes'. Likewise with Rogue, i love her character, love almost everything about her, but she doesnt belong on the Avengers. i always like her being on the X-men vs Ms. Marvel being on the Avengers, its a classic rivalry.

if theyve proved themeselves then yah i can see them joining up, but there is alot of people that have joined in the last decade who havent proved themselves. QS, SW, hawkeye, IM, etc who joined the team without having lengthy careers is kind of a moot point, as the time in which it first came out didnt have years of stuff to base it on. everything was new then. over the years and different incarnations they should have made it harder to join them team, this should help weed out potential nut jobs (pym, Sentry, SW, Wonderman, Wolverine, Moonknight, O'grady,) and make it so that people that dont deserve to join DONT (D-MAN!!!!!)

oh and ive read the entire New Mutants run, original, new, old school X-force, etc. and Sunspot hasnt earned his spot on the Avengers

and as for the elitist thing, i think that with the Winterguard, Alpha Flight, Big hero 6, and that French team (name?) all being based out of one country and not really giving a dam about anyone else there needs to be a more global team. i can get on board with the JL, but i dont like the jlA. in theory the Avengers have taken the best and brightest from across the world...

#88 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: you kinda fed into my point there, i dont think the Avengers should invite so many members to join the team. Storm was a member for what? 3 months? before NOW took over and she was dropped, Wolverines gona be a mainstay for the Avengers for a long time coming, Cannonball on multiple occasions has proven hes bigger then the New Mutants would allow him to be. but guys like Sunfire, i like the whole redemption angle theyre playing with him but most recently he was a bad-guy, and before that was decades of him being a prick to the X-men and other heroes. yes hes got power, yes he represents a demographic that the Avengers dont currently have, yes i would like to see him in a book, but i dont think he has earned a spot of the 'Earths Mightiest Heroes'. Likewise with Rogue, i love her character, love almost everything about her, but she doesnt belong on the Avengers. i always like her being on the X-men vs Ms. Marvel being on the Avengers, its a classic rivalry.

You make a pretty valid point about Storm joining, as it did just feel like oh, she should have been an Avenger by now, so let's just make her one because, sort of like most of the FF members, or when Spidey first became a reserve member; it was sort of acknowledging their status just because.

As for Rogue and Sunfire (and even Havoc), I think of these guys as classic marvel heroes who don't really serve any function to the X-men's story anymore. As you point out, Sunfire has almost never been very relevant, despite being a classic silver-age character; so to my mind, he seems long overdue to join the team. And Rogue has become such an established character within the X-men, that it's been years since she was truly the rogue of the team, generally just doing her own thing, despite being on the X-men; at least on the Avengers (especially the team she's on), she can actually stand out again. And Havoc's been in the same boat as both of them, but probably more so.

And I maintain that all of these characters have years more experience as superheroes than most of the classic Avengers (Iron-man, Ant-man, Wasp, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Hawkeye, the Vision, etc..) did when they first joined the team. So, in my mind, they've both earned a place on the team and become more interesting by being there.

if theyve proved themeselves then yah i can see them joining up, but there is alot of people that have joined in the last decade who havent proved themselves. QS, SW, hawkeye, IM, etc who joined the team without having lengthy careers is kind of a moot point, as the time in which it first came out didnt have years of stuff to base it on. everything was new then. over the years and different incarnations they should have made it harder to join them team, this should help weed out potential nut jobs (pym, Sentry, SW, Wonderman, Wolverine, Moonknight, O'grady,) and make it so that people that dont deserve to join DONT (D-MAN!!!!!)

With the exception of the Wolverine, I pretty much agree that most of these characters probably never should have been Avengers to begin with (and I would add a few others to that list, myself), yet they still let characters like Scarlet Witch, Hulk, Pym, Wonderman, and Sunfire onto the team to watch over them as they try to redeem themselves. As much as this often seems like a bad idea in retrospect, it is one of the most interesting things about the Avengers as a whole (that they help characters to be heroes), and leads to some of the most interesting character interactions.

oh and ive read the entire New Mutants run, original, new, old school X-force, etc. and Sunspot hasnt earned his spot on the Avengers

Yeah, there's a reason I haven't been sticking up for him, particularly, and it's not that I don't like him; he just doesn't feel like he brings anything to the table, as an Avenger.

and as for the elitist thing, i think that with the Winterguard, Alpha Flight, Big hero 6, and that French team (name?) all being based out of one country and not really giving a dam about anyone else there needs to be a more global team. i can get on board with the JL, but i dont like the jlA. in theory the Avengers have taken the best and brightest from across the world...

See, that's just one more thing that makes me want to see Sunfire in particular as an Avenger; he's like the classic Japanese marvel superhero. I'd actually like to see Northstar join for the same reason.

#89 Posted by kid Apollo (714 posts) - - Show Bio

like i said before, i really like the angle they are goin at for Sunfire. i know its another REDEMPTION story. but if you look at the last 10 years of his career (losing his legs, Famine, Sinister, homeless) its a great story, and hes always been a favorite of mine that most people groan over. i like Rogue because despite her not being the 'rogue' of the team anymore she has earned her leadership role within the X-men. one of my favorite things about her is that she usually leads grittier teams, such as her pre-Messiah Complex team, that was an awesome squad.

classic Iron Man line in Mighty Avengers, referring to the Sentry, he says the Sentry is 'like one of the Young Avengers, you have to nurture him and train him to be good'... what? the guy was a living nuke with the emotional maturity of a toddler, and hes running around with a half dozen other mentally questionable people.

and id totally like to see Northstar join the team but if its was still the 90s version. in the last couple years with the jumping back and forth between teams, the dieing and getting better. then again, it never hurts to have more Canadians on the Avengers...

#90 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@kid_apollo said:

the Avengers will always be the premier super heroes of the Marvel U, its pretty much a fact! theyre also at the opposite end of the spectrum then the X-men. one represents the ideals of society while the other is hated and feared. taking the X-men out of the main Marvel U would upset the balance of AvX(not the crossover). i think instead that they should cut back on the number of interactions between the 2 groups, and cut the Uncanny Avengers all together. with less crossing over you make the times they meet up have more of an impact, more 'holy sh*t the Avenger and the Xmen, side by side!' moments. and cut down the number of X-men on the Avengers, Wolverine, Sunspot, Cannonball, Beast, Storm, Rogue, Sunfire, and Havok all being Avengers withing the last 3 or so years is ridiculous!

Exactly, I always found the Avengers teams better when they didn't take in X-men members in their group. Cutting down on interactions between the two would be much more better off given recent events. To me their better off just hating each other like rivals given the X-men's hate of governments. Wolverine I've never liked on the Avengers defeats the purpose of the characters resentment to governments based on his origin. Surprisingly I'm okay with Sunfire I never saw him as par t of the X-men to begin with more along the same lines as Scarlett Witch and Quicksilver. The rest of the X-men members on the Avengers can go back to their X-title spinoffs.

#91 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

Exactly, I always found the Avengers teams better when they didn't take in X-men members in their group. Cutting down on interactions between the two would be much more better off given recent events. To me their better off just hating each other like rivals given the X-men's hate of governments. Wolverine I've never liked on the Avengers defeats the purpose of the characters resentment to governments based on his origin. Surprisingly I'm okay with Sunfire I never saw him as par t of the X-men to begin with more along the same lines as Scarlett Witch and Quicksilver. The rest of the X-men members on the Avengers can go back to their X-title spinoffs.

I agree that a lot of recent events (like AvsX, especially, and how much the Avengers have been in Bendis' X-men books) have been not that great, and some of them downright bad; but I still think Uncanny Avengers is a great book so far, and it sort of came out of some bad stories. And, even if I didn't think that book was good, I still don't see what good could come from splitting their whole universe in half.

#92 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Well for one readers will no longer be asking wheres the other super teams to help the X-men? The X-men in their own universe will finally fight a battle alone without help from outsiders and the rest of the Marvel heroes won't have to feel guilty for not helping now that their separate. Besides X-writers always preferred writing the X-men cornered, depressed, and without hope. Two no more pointless rivalries between them and the Avengers, VS fights, no more arguments between the two teams of who has the higher ground in morality, and no more trying to force the idea that these two can co-exist. Third mutant problems can be taken care of in the X-men universe, now for those who say "But the X-men gave us the stories of dangerous minority" I say this: Atlantean's, Inhumans, Artificial Intelligence, Moloids, aliens, mystical beings, and genetically forced transformed beings these too can have a story of said race should they live within the human public difference is their part of the Marvel U. So Fantastic Four would help Moloids, Inhumans, Atlantean's and the Avengers help Artificial Intelligence, mystical beings. As to aliens both teams would share in that department. Meanwhile mutants would only be handled by X-men in their universe since X-writers hate to share and want to continue making the X-men depressed and lost.

#93 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: Well for one readers will no longer be asking wheres the other super teams to help the X-men? The X-men in their own universe will finally fight a battle alone without help from outsiders and the rest of the Marvel heroes won't have to feel guilty for not helping now that their separate.

I don't think there's any reason for readers to do that now. When I read an X-men comic, I'm not thinking, "man, where are the Avengers?". If I did think about it at all, I'd probably just assume they were busy, y'know, being the Avengers.

Besides X-writers always preferred writing the X-men cornered, depressed, and without hope. Two no more pointless rivalries between them and the Avengers, VS fights, no more arguments between the two teams of who has the higher ground in morality, and no more trying to force the idea that these two can co-exist.

You're right that some X-men writers do focus too much on that element of the X-men, and that some Marvel writers in general write poor and/or contrived crossovers that focus too much on the uninteresting premise of there being some rivalry between the teams. Hey, I don't like bad stories any more than the next guy, I just think that this solution eliminates the possibility of a lot of cool stories from happening, without really eliminating the possibility of poor writing/editorial choices. In fact, your solution, by it's very nature is a convoluted retcon.

Third mutant problems can be taken care of in the X-men universe, now for those who say "But the X-men gave us the stories of dangerous minority" I say this: Atlantean's, Inhumans, Artificial Intelligence, Moloids, aliens, mystical beings, and genetically forced transformed beings these too can have a story of said race should they live within the human public difference is their part of the Marvel U. So Fantastic Four would help Moloids, Inhumans, Atlantean's and the Avengers help Artificial Intelligence, mystical beings. As to aliens both teams would share in that department. Meanwhile mutants would only be handled by X-men in their universe since X-writers hate to share and want to continue making the X-men depressed and lost.

I can't help but feel you're only focusing on certain (mostly negative) elements of what the X-men have been, as well as what they have been to the MU as a whole. I love X-men comics, and yeah, some of them are bad; and some of them are sort of off in their own little world anyway, but they aren't all depressing, in fact many of the best ones are a lot of fun in the same way that any other marvel comic can be.

I do think you make a strong case for reasons they don't have to have anything to do with the MU as a whole, and for most stories, I think you're probably right. I think, really the best way to enjoy any story is in and of itself. That said, there are great stories that can't happen if you separate the two worlds completely, and I just don't see any good reason to do that.

Now, if there were an Avengers or an X-men book that was set outside of the regular MU, that didn't involve the other half, I probably would be interested in checking those books out just to see how the creators would make the stories different (like I do when I watch the movies, for example), but completely retconing the whole continuity they have at this point just seems like a huge waste.

#94 Posted by TheCowman (461 posts) - - Show Bio

*Yawn*

This again?

#95 Posted by ImNemotheGemini (845 posts) - - Show Bio

The OP seems like a Senator Kelly to me ! Advocating segregation of Mutants in comics by placing them elsewhere and deleting their history ! Shame shame !

#96 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

The OP seems like a Senator Kelly to me ! Advocating segregation of Mutants in comics by placing them elsewhere and deleting their history ! Shame shame !

haha! I can not tell you how many times I had to stop myself from bringing that up..

#97 Posted by tigerkaya (1262 posts) - - Show Bio

@imnemothegemini: The new 52 deleted any trace of the golden age heroes and placed them in their own title Earth two, so I see no problem doing the same to the X-men mythos. Heres a sample of the separated universe title the X-men can have. By that point Kelly along with other humans connected to the X-men would also be placed in the X-men separated universe so that also includes human and mutant.

#98 Edited by Outside_85 (9521 posts) - - Show Bio

@tigerkaya: I have to point out that JMS' Wonder Woman wasn't on an alternate Earth but on the normal Earth but with a tweaked timeline. As you may remember since JMS' Wonder Woman met both Superman while he was Grounded and the JLI who came and helped her out as Max Lords finally remembered he wanted to kill her.

Anyways, I dont see why you need to exile the x-men to a different universe, since all it seems to do is rob them of potential stories. And you will have the bother of having quite a few Avengers being mutants along with, as you mention, it's not like the two franchises are stepping on each others toes constantly.

#99 Posted by John Valentine (16310 posts) - - Show Bio

No, far from it.

#100 Edited by oldnightcrawler (4705 posts) - - Show Bio

@tigerkaya: I actually thought of one way your idea could work without eliminating story possibilities.

So, say we put them on two earths. There's the earth with no X-men, and the earth with no other superheroes -but, they are accessible to each other. So Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver could exist as mutants, but from an alternate dimension. They would have never been in the Brotherhood on the Avengers world, because there isn't one, but it could still be part of their back story.

Likewise, the Beast could have accessed the Avengers world through a dimensional gateway (which other characters like Wolverine would gain access to later), and decided their cause was equally noble as the heroes on his world. the Avengers could have faced Mystique's brotherhood while on a rescue mission to the X-earth, and Ms.Marvel just stays on that world afterwords, so she could still join the X-men for a time and retain all that classic history with Rogue. There's actually even a little president, in stuff like the time when the X-men lived with Spider-woman; at that time she had no powers and was a private investigator, but that's what she would be on X-world.

Stuff like Marvel's (the mini series) would become a little more meta in that light, but stuff like the Secret Wars and House of M and even Uncanny Avengers would still make sense with very little explanatory errata, since these characters travel to other worlds all the time anyway.