1. There has never been an instance in mainstram comics where he did that. The only 2 examples I know of are in 'The Dark Knight Returns (set in the future) and 'The Joker' a very alternate version where he is wearing make up like Heath Ledger, but is even more brutal. So those opposed to the idea are not 'removing it' from his M.O. Others are forcing it in, despite 70 years of it just not being part of the character's behavior.
2. The Joker is perhaps the most enjoyed comics villan in history, and perhaps all of entertainment. Yes, he is a murderer, and yes it weird that fans still enjoy him despite that, but that's how we as a society are. Sometime we like a bad guy who is smart, funny, or just plain cool. If you make him a rapist, we either have to accept that and still love him, or we have to stop loving him. Either way sucks. Either way the idea is outrageous, Why do that to a character that really is enjoyed by so many just the way he is? He never needed to be a rapist to be the ultimare bad-guy, Batman's true nemisis. This would mess with my enjoyment of comics overall and the Joker in particular. I can't be a fan of a rapist. I would be angry with anyone else who is. I read comics for entertainment, and yes, it can be violent entertainment, but rape is not in any form entertaining. This is why Snyder scares me a little. He says the Joker is his favvorite villan of all time. Make him rape somebody and then say that.
The Joker could rape a nun and then put a gun to that nun's head and force her to anally violate a newborn baby with a crucifix and he'd record it and keep it on his person and laugh at it every Tuesday.
Your prize will be waiting for you at terminal three, just bring your ID and say "I'm InnerVenom, and I've just won the internet".
@Gambit1024: Alan Moore wrote it so if he had actually raped her he'd have probably done more than just imply it
Thats true. Moore does love to torture and rape his female characters he hasn't shied away from it in the past why would he there. Which incidentally is what put me off his work in general.
@jbfrancis: THIS ! You were much more succent than I was and made a perfect point. I LOVE The Joker and want to be able to continue to enjoy his adventures. He is hugely popular. Why do so many people want to mess that up?
Lupine has been mentioned, and to be historically accurate, Lupine WAS part of the model/ inspiration for The Joker. Joker has been a worthy adversary, a foe with a code and a sense of honor. Especially in the 70's when anti government and anti establishment was very strong. That's The Joker I prefer. Even the 80's and 90's managed to avoid "complete monster" status a lot of the time.
But I hadn't really thought of it the way you put it. He's my favorite character, why do s many people want to mess that up and make me decide between not being a fan or accepting him as a rapist? He DOES have a code of honor and always should. any writer who does him different is going for lazy writing in my opinion.
The classic, long standing villains are that way. Joker has been that way needs to stay that way. In fact, we could use a bit more of that in him.
@Gambit1024: Alan Moore wrote it so if he had actually raped her he'd have probably done more than just imply it
Thats true. Moore does love to torture and rape his female characters he hasn't shied away from it in the past why would he there. Which incidentally is what put me off his work in general.
Speaking of rape, I recently tried to watch the original version (I haven't seen the new one so I can't comment on it) of "I Spit On Your Grave" I made it past the first brutal rape scene and thought "Ok thats over with, now lets see her kill those bastards." Then there is another brutal rape scene right after that, that I couldn't make it through so I turned the movie off. There could be a third I'll never know. I find rape to be the most despicable thing someone can do worse than murder. Torture is probably on par but rape is a type of torture in my opinion, just possibly without the same intent. That being said, I do think joker is capable of something like that, though you have to keep in mind that some serial killers that have tortured people are impotent and can only get off on torture so perhaps thats what joker is like.
Speaking of rape, I recently tried to watch the original version (I haven't seen the new one so I can't comment on it) of "I Spit On Your Grave" I made it past the first brutal rape scene and thought "Ok thats over with, now lets see her kill those bastards." Then there is another brutal rape scene right after that, that I couldn't make it through so I turned the movie off. There could be a third I'll never know. I find rape to be the most despicable thing someone can do worse than murder. Torture is probably on par but rape is a type of torture in my opinion, just possibly without the same intent. That being said, I do think joker is capable of something like that, though you have to keep in mind that some serial killers that have tortured people are impotent and can only get off on torture so perhaps thats what joker is like.
I never even tried to watch "I Spit on Your Grave." I'm sure I would hate it. Rape is absolutely disgusting. And yes, there are real life and fictional people who can only get off that way.
But Joker is not maybe like that. It's been well established he has never been like that and isn't like that.
And I don't want him to ever be written that way, and neither do most other comic book fans from what I'm seeing. It's not entertaining, and it ruins the whole thing.
1. There has never been an instance in mainstram comics where he did that. The only 2 examples I know of are in 'The Dark Knight Returns (set in the future) and 'The Joker' a very alternate version where he is wearing make up like Heath Ledger, but is even more brutal. So those opposed to the idea are not 'removing it' from his M.O. Others are forcing it in, despite 70 years of it just not being part of the character's behavior. 2. The Joker is perhaps the most enjoyed comics villan in history, and perhaps all of entertainment. Yes, he is a murderer, and yes it weird that fans still enjoy him despite that, but that's how we as a society are. Sometime we like a bad guy who is smart, funny, or just plain cool. If you make him a rapist, we either have to accept that and still love him, or we have to stop loving him. Either way sucks. Either way the idea is outrageous, Why do that to a character that really is enjoyed by so many just the way he is? He never needed to be a rapist to be the ultimare bad-guy, Batman's true nemisis. This would mess with my enjoyment of comics overall and the Joker in particular. I can't be a fan of a rapist. I would be angry with anyone else who is. I read comics for entertainment, and yes, it can be violent entertainment, but rape is not in any form entertaining. This is why Snyder scares me a little. He says the Joker is his favvorite villan of all time. Make him rape somebody and then say that.
You're right. It isn't that Joker isn't capable. It's the Alice Cooper rule: Don't show too much, or you'll give it away. Making Joker a rapist in the mainstream, an explicit statement, would create an ethical problem for readers.
1. There has never been an instance in mainstram comics where he did that. The only 2 examples I know of are in 'The Dark Knight Returns (set in the future) and 'The Joker' a very alternate version where he is wearing make up like Heath Ledger, but is even more brutal. So those opposed to the idea are not 'removing it' from his M.O. Others are forcing it in, despite 70 years of it just not being part of the character's behavior. 2. The Joker is perhaps the most enjoyed comics villan in history, and perhaps all of entertainment. Yes, he is a murderer, and yes it weird that fans still enjoy him despite that, but that's how we as a society are. Sometime we like a bad guy who is smart, funny, or just plain cool. If you make him a rapist, we either have to accept that and still love him, or we have to stop loving him. Either way sucks. Either way the idea is outrageous, Why do that to a character that really is enjoyed by so many just the way he is? He never needed to be a rapist to be the ultimare bad-guy, Batman's true nemisis. This would mess with my enjoyment of comics overall and the Joker in particular. I can't be a fan of a rapist. I would be angry with anyone else who is. I read comics for entertainment, and yes, it can be violent entertainment, but rape is not in any form entertaining. This is why Snyder scares me a little. He says the Joker is his favvorite villan of all time. Make him rape somebody and then say that.
You're right. It isn't that Joker isn't capable. It's the Alice Cooper rule: Don't show too much, or you'll give it away. Making Joker a rapist in the mainstream, an explicit statement, would create an ethical problem for readers.
@TheJokerha: Again, thank you for your time. This has been an informative debate.
Before I get started, Brian Azzello's Joker and the universe he inhabits are not the main stream and not the Joker of the new 52. Whether he raped any one isn't relevant to the current main world version.
From a real world marketing stand point it would be disastrous. There are a lot of versions of Joker all over lots of media. Some of it very kid friendly. Is it weird that in one version he is a killer, but in other kid friendly versions he is more of a prankster and can be on a lunch box? Yes.Is it weirder that having any of the version as a rapist or child molester would make him untouchable and not able to be used in those genres? Yes.
But the weirdness doesn't change the fact that its the way things are. Darth Vadar, Dracula, Joker, there are serious versions of them and kid's cereal versions. It's all down to marketing to as many sub groups as possible.You won't see kid's DC t shirts with Dr. Light on them. (thank God) . I don't remember if Dr. Light ever showed up on Teen Titans Cartoon before DC made Light a rapist child molester. But I seriously doubt he will be on Young Justice for just that reason. I once saw a young readers series of "Choose your own adventures" books starring a grade school age yet already a nightmare monster Freddy Krueger. No Kidding. I asked my girlfriend "They know he's a murderous child molester, right?" She answered "Hey, if it can get a kid to read a book I'm all for it." But it surprised the hell out of me.
Secondly, there is an old troupe called Even Evil Has standards. As it was discussed in another forum here, The Joker really isn't the worst of the worst. There are others out there more evil and sadistic than he is. I don't think making him the worst is the goal. Just the most dangerous. He does draw the line at some things, and does it consistently. I'm not sure which issue, but I remember him saying once "I may be crazy, but never crude." The Joker isn't beast like.
But sometimes Joker does get written with the "Complete Monster" template. But I find him more interesting when he is unpredictable and may actually turn and help the heroes ( which he has done on numerous occasions) or just give up his long planned out scheme and go off on a tangent. After the initial shock has worn off, complete monsters get pretty damn boring. Eric Cartman cannot do anything that shocks me. "Can you believe what Cartman did on Southpark? ::shrug::" Yeah, it's Cartman.."
Having Joker as a rapist or child molester would be so...predictable, pedestrian and boring. Bad writing and cheap shock value lacking in creativity. In short: a cop out short cut excused by delusions of being "edgy and dark." He calls himself The Einstein of crime. An artist and a genius. Such common troglodyte crimes motivated by the baser sexual instincts are not worthy of him. Any thug or little punk can rape. Have you seen child molesters in the news? They tend to be from the knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, shallow end of the gene pool. The Joker is a higher standard class of criminal than that.
I'll let the Clown Prince of Crime explain it himself.
1) I disagree. I feel, given the constant reinvention of Joker's personality, every interpretation rings true.
2) You're right, such a storyline in the mainstream would probably prove too controversial for DC or Time Warner.
3) As for your preferences, to each his own. I prefer the Morrison idea that Joker changes his personality often if not everyday, and has no fixed code save for when his place in the world is threatened or someone disrespects him (i.e Joker's allegiance with the Bat-Family in "Batman R.I.P." and "Batman and Robin" #1-16. )
4) Again, It's not about satisfying sexual urges, it's about power. Remember the scene in "The Dark Knight" where Joker tells the cop why he kills with a knife? How killing with a knife means savoring the details and getting to the "real" person in their final moments, and using that admission to take advantage of the cop and escape? I've always thought rape was just as much, if not more, about power than lust. Joker got the best of the cop by striking him intimately, just like he struck Gordon by shooting his daughter and photographing her naked. He's even doing it now in "Death of the Family", using what he knows about the heroes (e.g. where Gordon keeps his cigarettes, the relative softness of Batman's current condition, knowing where the Batcave is to strike Alfred) to get the best of them. Imagine what Joker will do or say to Jason or Barbara or Dick later in the arc.
5) Joker IS the worst. He has no material or monetary motivation, he just does what he does because he loves it. He's the most sadistic, random, evil villain in the DC. He's not a gentleman villain (most of the time). He's not Lupin III.
Joker may be a little gun shy about going after Dick if that whole thing where Dick beat him to the point of death is still cannon.
Before I get started, Brian Azzello's Joker and the universe he inhabits are not the main stream and not the Joker of the new 52. Whether he raped any one isn't relevant to the current main world version.
From a real world marketing stand point it would be disastrous. There are a lot of versions of Joker all over lots of media. Some of it very kid friendly. Is it weird that in one version he is a killer, but in other kid friendly versions he is more of a prankster and can be on a lunch box? Yes.Is it weirder that having any of the version as a rapist or child molester would make him untouchable and not able to be used in those genres? Yes.
But the weirdness doesn't change the fact that its the way things are. Darth Vadar, Dracula, Joker, there are serious versions of them and kid's cereal versions. It's all down to marketing to as many sub groups as possible.You won't see kid's DC t shirts with Dr. Light on them. (thank God) . I don't remember if Dr. Light ever showed up on Teen Titans Cartoon before DC made Light a rapist child molester. But I seriously doubt he will be on Young Justice for just that reason. I once saw a young readers series of "Choose your own adventures" books starring a grade school age yet already a nightmare monster Freddy Krueger. No Kidding. I asked my girlfriend "They know he's a murderous child molester, right?" She answered "Hey, if it can get a kid to read a book I'm all for it." But it surprised the hell out of me.
Secondly, there is an old troupe called Even Evil Has standards. As it was discussed in another forum here, The Joker really isn't the worst of the worst. There are others out there more evil and sadistic than he is. I don't think making him the worst is the goal. Just the most dangerous. He does draw the line at some things, and does it consistently. I'm not sure which issue, but I remember him saying once "I may be crazy, but never crude." The Joker isn't beast like.
But sometimes Joker does get written with the "Complete Monster" template. But I find him more interesting when he is unpredictable and may actually turn and help the heroes ( which he has done on numerous occasions) or just give up his long planned out scheme and go off on a tangent. After the initial shock has worn off, complete monsters get pretty damn boring. Eric Cartman cannot do anything that shocks me. "Can you believe what Cartman did on Southpark? ::shrug::" Yeah, it's Cartman.."
Having Joker as a rapist or child molester would be so...predictable, pedestrian and boring. Bad writing and cheap shock value lacking in creativity. In short: a cop out short cut excused by delusions of being "edgy and dark." He calls himself The Einstein of crime. An artist and a genius. Such common troglodyte crimes motivated by the baser sexual instincts are not worthy of him. Any thug or little punk can rape. Have you seen child molesters in the news? They tend to be from the knuckle dragging, mouth breathing, shallow end of the gene pool. The Joker is a higher standard class of criminal than that.
I'll let the Clown Prince of Crime explain it himself.
1) I disagree. I feel, given the constant reinvention of Joker's personality, every interpretation rings true.
2) You're right, such a storyline in the mainstream would probably prove too controversial for DC or Time Warner.
3) As for your preferences, to each his own. I prefer the Morrison idea that Joker changes his personality often if not everyday, and has no fixed code save for when his place in the world is threatened or someone disrespects him (i.e Joker's allegiance with the Bat-Family in "Batman R.I.P." and "Batman and Robin" #1-16. )
4) Again, It's not about satisfying sexual urges, it's about power. Remember the scene in "The Dark Knight" where Joker tells the cop why he kills with a knife? How killing with a knife means savoring the details and getting to the "real" person in their final moments, and using that admission to take advantage of the cop and escape? I've always thought rape was just as much, if not more, about power than lust. Joker got the best of the cop by striking him intimately, just like he struck Gordon by shooting his daughter and photographing her naked. He's even doing it now in "Death of the Family", using what he knows about the heroes (e.g. where Gordon keeps his cigarettes, the relative softness of Batman's current condition, knowing where the Batcave is to strike Alfred) to get the best of them. Imagine what Joker will do or say to Jason or Barbara or Dick later in the arc.
5) Joker IS the worst. He has no material or monetary motivation, he just does what he does because he loves it. He's the most sadistic, random, evil villain in the DC. He's not a gentleman villain (most of the time). He's not Lupin III.
Joker may be a little gun shy about going after Dick if that whole thing where Dick beat him to the point of death is still cannon.
After 70 years and much of it on saturday morning cartoons, the Joker is EVREWHERE. 5-year-olds dress up like him for Halloween. Cosplayers. Video gamers. I have a children's book about Harley and the Joker on my nightstand. Bad enough for long-time fans of the Joker, imagime what it would be like for real life victims of rape if this celebrated character became a rapist. Not everyone would know. There would still be 5-year olds at Halloween dressed like him.
Maybe we tolerate him as a murderer becuase he is so far from real life crimes. Purplesuit, laughing gas, green hair, eternally escaping justice. Sorry, rape is far too real and too common.
I'd hope there would be a massive outcry. Snyder might loose his job, the story be cancelled. And I'd agree with that. It would be a step towards dragging society further into acceptance of abuse, with the odd twist that we would mostly be aware of it.
After 70 years and much of it on saturday morning cartoons, the Joker is EVREWHERE. 5-year-olds dress up like him for Halloween. Cosplayers. Video gamers. I have a children's book about Harley and the Joker on my nightstand. Bad enough for long-time fans of the Joker, imagime what it would be like for real life victims of rape if this celebrated character became a rapist. Not everyone would know. There would still be 5-year olds at Halloween dressed like him. Maybe we tolerate him as a murderer becuase he is so far from real life crimes. Purplesuit, laughing gas, green hair, eternally escaping justice. Sorry, rape is far too real and too common. I'd hope there would be a massive outcry. Snyder might loose his job, the story be cancelled. And I'd agree with that. It would be a step towards dragging society further into acceptance of abuse, with the odd twist that we would mostly be aware of it.
Wow, I had honestly never thought of it in those terms.
I don't think he did. Because it would torture Gordon more. Did Joker rape Barbra? Was he just through making sure he left no evidence of it? He can't ask her. The medical report would say nothing, but it will always nag in the back of his mind, "Did this disgusting psychopath violate my little girl?"
Which part? :) I'm being heavy handed about all this, but it has worried me since I saw a quote from Snyder saying the Joker would do anything, including rape. Really, I love this character, I don't want to stop. I'm honelty afraid that Snyder may end up taking this character from me. Dini, whom I mostly adore, almost did it with the ending of 'Mad Love'. WTF?? It's a children's cartoon, and Joker beats and throws Harley out of a window, only to have her come back to him. *FacePalm*! At least it wasn't canon, and, thank god for fanfiction...
After 70 years and much of it on saturday morning cartoons, the Joker is EVREWHERE. 5-year-olds dress up like him for Halloween. Cosplayers. Video gamers. I have a children's book about Harley and the Joker on my nightstand. Bad enough for long-time fans of the Joker, imagime what it would be like for real life victims of rape if this celebrated character became a rapist. Not everyone would know. There would still be 5-year olds at Halloween dressed like him. Maybe we tolerate him as a murderer becuase he is so far from real life crimes. Purplesuit, laughing gas, green hair, eternally escaping justice. Sorry, rape is far too real and too common. I'd hope there would be a massive outcry. Snyder might loose his job, the story be cancelled. And I'd agree with that. It would be a step towards dragging society further into acceptance of abuse, with the odd twist that we would mostly be aware of it.
I think that sums it up nicely.
I've never taken the Joker as someone who needs sexual gratification. I've never really seen his relationship with Harley being a sexual one, he looks at her with a mix of sidekick and bullet shield. He does what he does out of his own constantly twisted sense of humor. If he was going to rape someone I think it would be because it proved whatever point he was making, but more likely I see him trying to manipulate someone into raping someone else.
Its definately not out of any moral code but its to simple and cuts to deep with people, I think he would fear it would overshadow whatever his real motives are focus all the attention to that vs whatever his master plan is.
Joker is a classy character. A killer, but a classy killer who does things for the lulz... rape isn't funny or classy. The only people who like rape are yaoi fangirls, and Joker is above that. He wants his crimes to mean something, he doesn't do what he does for raw personal gratification. That is beneath his genius.
@VampireSelektor: Which part? :) I'm being heavy handed about all this, but it has worried me since I saw a quote from Snyder saying the Joker would do anything, including rape. Really, I love this character, I don't want to stop. I'm honelty afraid that Snyder may end up taking this character from me. Dini, whom I mostly adore, almost did it with the ending of 'Mad Love'. WTF?? It's a children's cartoon, and Joker beats and throws Harley out of a window, only to have her come back to him. *FacePalm*! At least it wasn't canon, and, thank god for fanfiction...
I do with agree with Snyder in the sense that Joker will do anything creatively rewarding in the pursuit of evil. Anything. But rape is hard to justify as a creatively rewarding plot device. Irréversible, a French film, succeeds on doing just that, but it's an uncommon feat. And I hadn't stop to consider that "less is more" might be better for all audiences. I don't mean water down the character, but keep aspects about the character shrouded in mystery rather than defining what he does and does not do. Rape has never been in the mainstream Joker's M.O., but it's a mistake to say he's incapable. Still, one must consider the audiences who could not handle their favorite character as a rapist. Again, the Alice Cooper rule: "Don't show them everything, or you'll give it all away".
I'm sure Joker's only "moral code" for stuff like that would be dictated on how the public would view him... He likes putting on a show, and I'm sure he enjoys being the notoriously twisted killer, not the deranged rapist who's also a serial killer... Plus, I'm sure his hormones are probably kept in check fine. And as far as his pitch black dark sense of humor goes, I wouldn't expect him to become a rapist for the fun of it just to step over boundaries. That might just be a bad delivery of a joke to him or something...
But of course, he's way too scrambled up to really be sure of just about anything with him... Especially how writers change and his character evolves and all that. Just speculating from the way he usually operates; it would probably just be out of character for him... Unless maybe somebody significant was going to be his victim, like Batman... The Joker would laugh himself to death to see the headlines of the Gotham Gazette: "Batman: The Raped Crusader?".
I'm not sure I would call it a code, but he has things he likes and things he dosen't. He likes funny. Humans have been looking for ways to laugh at death since the beginning of time. It's weird, but you can kind of see how he would think murder is funny. But when is rape funny? So I figure he wouldn't care for it on that basis alone.
One of my all-time favorite Joker quotes from 'The Last Laugh';
Some Nazis in the Slab's Cafeteria ask him to join the Aryan Brotherhood. His reply;
"Sorry, I'm evil and all, but you guys are just plain mean."
I'm not sure I would call it a code, but he has things he likes and things he dosen't. He likes funny. Humans have been looking for ways to laugh at death since the beginning of time. It's weird, but you can kind of see how he would think murder is funny. But when is rape funny? So I figure he wouldn't care for it on that basis alone. One of my all-time favorite Joker quotes from 'The Last Laugh'; Some Nazis in the Slab's Cafeteria ask him to join the Aryan Brotherhood. His reply; "Sorry, I'm evil and all, but you guys are just plain mean."
Louis C.K. and Patrice O'Neal have written hilarious rape jokes, actually.
*Shudder* I don't wanna know. But of course there will always be someone who manages it. And in truth I can see the Joker laughing about rape. I just donn't want too. Your original pont is true, part of the reason I reject it is my own discomfort. But it's a good discomfort to have. Pushing villans further is part of the nature of storytelling , they have to keep us interested. But keeping some lines uncrossed has its benefits. Forcing more creativity rather than relying on shock is one. Like this Death of the Family story. It does not need rape to be edgy or frightning.
I have an even better question. Why does it even matter? We know the Joker is evil, why do we need to see him or even think about him raping someone? Isn't what he already does enough?
I agree with this. We know that the Joker COULD rape, it would not be limited by any sense of moral code, but i wholeheartedly agree that he shouldn't. Firstly, it is a crass and ignorant story device that has been over used in comics and belittles the terrible nature of the act itself. If you need to include a rape scene in your story to prove how evil your character is then you are simply a bad writer. Speaking of writing, i just don't think that it is within The Joker's character to do such a thing. Just because it is not outside his moral code, does not mean that it is within his character. The cannibalism of raw baby flesh is a despicable act that would not be a problem to Joker's sense of morality, yet it would be totally out of character. Carnage? Maybe, but not the Joker.The third point, which ties in to Delphic's post, is, just because you can , should you? These are comic books, for Christ's sake, not A Serbian Film. Just because you could show a character committing such a terrible act, it does not mean you should. It cheapens the writer, it cheapens the medium, it cheapens the character and, ultimately, it cheapens us all.
I have an even better question. Why does it even matter? We know the Joker is evil, why do we need to see him or even think about him raping someone? Isn't what he already does enough?
I agree with this. We know that the Joker COULD rape, it would not be limited by any sense of moral code, but i wholeheartedly agree that he shouldn't. Firstly, it is a crass and ignorant story device that has been over used in comics and belittles the terrible nature of the act itself. If you need to include a rape scene in your story to prove how evil your character is then you are simply a bad writer. Speaking of writing, i just don't think that it is within The Joker's character to do such a thing. Just because it is not outside his moral code, does not mean that it is within his character. The cannibalism of raw baby flesh is a despicable act that would not be a problem to Joker's sense of morality, yet it would be totally out of character. Carnage? Maybe, but not the Joker.The third point, which ties in to Delphic's post, is, just because you can , should you? These are comic books, for Christ's sake, not A Serbian Film. Just because you could show a character committing such a terrible act, it does not mean you should. It cheapens the writer, it cheapens the medium, it cheapens the character and, ultimately, it cheapens us all.
*applause*
This is my biggest problem in comics, and it's good to not be the only one who thinks so. I hate the way rape is treated in comics. Couldn't agree with you more.
I have an even better question. Why does it even matter? We know the Joker is evil, why do we need to see him or even think about him raping someone? Isn't what he already does enough?
Its a mistake from a marketing standpoint. Hard to sell "rapist" action figures and birthday plates...
I think there is plenty of evil, twisted stuff that society can handle just fine for the Joker to do in intelligent stories for them to be able to get along just fine without him just going about raping folks.
@feebadger: I just followed that link to "A Siberian Film" since I had never heard of it, how anyone can defend the fact that there is child pornography in it and list it as cinematic genius is beyond me. I'm not particularly squeamish about violence, but to me that film just sounds like horror porn and has none of the substance that some of the people in it and critics are trying to attribute to it. It's a very much more graphic version of saw in terms of violence but in a sexual sense. What the f##k kind of symbolism can you attribute to raping a new born baby? It just sounds wrong.
First off, I seem to fall into your category of 'complete and utter morons', so left me say this first. When a group of people are having a thoughtful, intelligent discussion, the obvious moron present is the one who makes a blanket statement without supporting reason and insults his dissenters, also whithout suporting arguments.
Please go away, the grown-ups are talking here.
The only solid reasoning to make the Joker a rapist is for the deliberate emotional destruction it would cause. That is exactly what was going on in BA's 'Joker' graphic novel. And wow, don't we all want more or that. (That's sarcasm, people.) If that's who the mainstream Joker is, I have no interest in reading Batman ever again. As a one-off 'what if' story, that behavior will pop up to be explored, and it may even still be a worthy story, but how many people would want more Joker stories if that was who he was? It's not a part of the character we love. 70 years. No rape. Why not? Apart from commercial reasons, how about this; Because a character is a murderer does not mean that it logically follows that that person is also a rapist in nature. It's an abberation in behavior, not the baseline underneath us all. Removing all morals and respect for laws still does not make a character a rapist. Most people, characters, whatever, simply don't want to, murderers or not.
In real life murder, torture, and rape should all be held in repugnance. Absolutley. In entertainment it is different, because it IS entertainment. Fiction. Look at videro games. I like a good action movie myself, even a horor movie or two. It's unlikely I, or most people wll ever face the reality. We have distance from it, it can be harmless make-believe to us. Rape happens every day in every city in the world. Add it into a popilar character just to make him that much more evil ans shocking, and what do we become if we grow casual about something so horrific that is quite close to us? I'm sure comic writers do not mean to portray rape as entertaining, but entertaining us is their primary job, so it should not be foisted upon a character that is already loved because he is so very entertaining. The Joker is not a rapeist. He should not become one, for the sake of society, the fans, the character's own portrayal, and DC's profits and integrity.
@joshmightbe: Actually...he shot her, stripped her of her clothes, took pictures of her and then he left. He then proceeded to show those pictures of Barbara to Commissioner Gordon to prove to Batman that anyone, even Gotham's White Knight, could succumb to the level of insanity that he has been a victim of for so many years.
So yeah, the fact that she was naked and unconscious kinda alludes to rape. At least that's what I always took from the story.
@JakeN7: I'm just saying that if he had actually raped her it would have come up at some point in the last 24 years since the story came out. I'm not questioning whether or not he's capable just saying that in this particular story and all those story lines affected by it has never even implied that he did anything other than take some pictures after crippling her.
@VampireSelektor: The Joker graphic novel is'nt in continuity,many Joker fans(myself included) found that guy to be simply a sadistic criminal not remotely anything like the actual Joker.Funnily he was nothing like Heath Ledger's Joker either.
@VampireSelektor: The Joker graphic novel is'nt in continuity,many Joker fans(myself included) found that guy to be simply a sadistic criminal not remotely anything like the actual Joker.Funnily he was nothing like Heath Ledger's Joker either.
1) Yes, but I've already voiced my belief that every version of Joker and Batman is valid.
@Gambit1024: I've read the Killing Joke several times and nowhere in there did Joker rape Barbara, he shot her and left that was it.
I agree with Gambit1024. Just becomes Barbara was undressed does not me she was raped. There was no dialogue of her being raped. Jim Gordon was undressed as well at the amusement park.I think the whole point of that scene was just to scare and humiliate him ."Here's nude photo's of your daughter with a bullet hole in her stomach" "How does that make you feel?" " Do you see what I can do to you?"
I'm not going to say Joker has a moral problem with rape since he has no respect for morality, but it is something he likely sees as beneath him. Joker would never want to be seen as a common criminal and, unfortunately, sexual assault is extremely common. I imagine Joker thinks of it as a brutish crime someone like a Killer Croc or Sabretooth would commit, people he would have no respect for. Joker's crimes are about theatrics and the impact to the observers of his crimes. Joker would have no interest in committing a crime that no one ever hears about and rape is rarely reported because of the shame the victims feel. Murder always causes a huge scene. If there is a body it's always a public spectacle that's why I believe murder is in character for the Joker and rape is not. Also, from a story telling standpoint, rape is almost always used as a cheap way to make the reader hate the villain or feel sorry for the female protagonist. It would be detrimental to the character for people to hate him on every level instead of being able to enjoy his appearances.
@The_Peter_Cosmic: Well, what about Ledger's Joker? Or Azzarello's Joker? Would you consider them theatrical?
I'm inclined to agree with you - rape is more common a crime than murder. However, Joker is the most creative criminal ever (E V A H!). Creative-types like Gaspar Noe, David Lynch, and Suehiro Mauro have all used rape as a plot device one or another and achieved widespread acclaim. Surely Joker could match their wits. No, the "rape" problem lies not with Joker, but with the fans. And not just adult fans who shiver at the thought of Joker as a rapist, but the younger ones who role-play the villain at recess, who dress up as him for Halloween. "Joker the rapist" appearing in regular issues of Batman would drag the characters and DC through the mud when a standalone graphic novel would have sufficed.
I think the Joker's main gambit is making his deliberate, arduously conceived plots look effortless, spontaneous, and arbitrary. The intention is to make a fool of his enemies and frustrate them to the point of insanity, he wants to humiliate them by looking like he's just improvising on the spot while kicking their arses. He's like a comedian in the sense that he slaves away at material to produce then spits it out like casual conversation. Shooting the commissioner's daughter without killing her looks sloppy but he probably wanted her to suffer a fate worse than death- I'm sure it was no accident he didn't kill her. Then, to photograph her nude would drive Gordon mad with speculation as to what happened and ultimately leave him deeply unhinged. To the Joker, that's the punchline. He delights in knowing Gordon's vision of what the Joker may have to done to Barbara is probably sicker and darker than anything he could come up with on his own.
Now, would he ever rape someone? Possibly, I guess. But he doesn't actually seem to be too sexually frustrated. His mind is mainly set on igniting psychological warfare, he doesn't seem to have any issues with sexual frustration. Actually, as far as sex goes, he's pretty low maintenance given that he's only ever had eyes for Harley. I just don't think rape would fit his profile as a criminal unless it somehow benefited a master of plot of his. Even then though, I think the Joker likes instant gratification. A shot to the head, acid to the face...something that just does the trick.
I'm all for readers having their own interpretation of a work. Once the team has put the comic together and its published it should stand on its own.
That being said it is strongly implied Joker raped Barbara Gordon in Killing Joke. If people don't want to view it that way its fine. If DC understandably wants to deny it I can't blame them. Regardless in the story after she is shot it is later strongly implied joker raped her.
As far as the notion of rape or sexual violence, I think its still really uncomfortable for audiences to handle. Mainstream audience is well acquainted with murder and gore for all people. However, rape is still a very touchy issues. You see it in some works, even critically acclaimed works, but regardless I think its something most people when asked would do without.
As for Joker committing sexual acts I have no problem with it. He's a detestable villain known for his perverse and inhuman acts, the fact that he would draw the line at sexual violence seems silly to me, or that any of Batman's more extreme villains would like Zsass etc. But just in terms of Joker's fanbase I think a lot of people would be uncomfortable with the notion of him being a rapist. Joker's turned into a character that is idolized and adored by many people. They can put up with him torturing and killing people, but not rape for some reason or another.
Now when I said I was okay with it don't mistake that for me wanting to see it. I have a strong distaste for reading or seeing anything to do with rape. But if someone made Joker more of an overt sexual predator or deviant it wouldn't surprise me, I think it logically makes sense with his character. Doesn't mean I'd read a story where it happens though. It would have to be something really well done like Girl with the Dragon Tatoo, and even that was a little too intense for me.
The discussion isn't really about joker but more the audiences views on rape.
The photos show it all. If joker wanted to rape her he sure as hell would have "implied" anything, it would have been on the net three minutes after. Jokers whole motif is to "shock" batman.
I also think Barbara would have said..something about being raped too.
The photos show it all. If joker wanted to rape her he sure as hell would have "implied" anything, it would have been on the net three minutes after. Jokers whole motif is to "shock" batman.
I also think Barbara would have said..something about being raped too.
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