#1 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

- After reading this trash, it looks like i won't be buying Tyrion's "run" in trade.

- Honestly, i cannot wait until this idiot is off RHATO.

- However, feel free to discuss this drivel-- oops, i meant "issue".

#2 Posted by God_Spawn (38139 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually thought it was pretty good. I'm not really a fan of how Jason still doesn't have his memories, or how we don't have a time table before he gets them back (which he undoubtedly will), but the story felt more structured. The art to me seemed a lot better. And it wasn't really supposed to be an action filled issue. It was more of an emotion driven issue and made to feel like everything was falling apart which he did well.

Just my two cents on the matter.

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#3 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

Not really sure whether I agree with Roy here or not. He kinda comes off as a good friend, and then he kinda comes off as a dick.

EDIT: Also, Arsenal getting the drop on Jason Todd and being able to knock him out? LMFAO I don't think so pal.

#4 Posted by wessaari (630 posts) - - Show Bio

We are two issues in, and I know people are going to make their own opinions on what Tynion's run will be like. I am willing to see the whole storyline through, and it does offer a different and interesting spin on things. I really hope this story doesn't become a story where the Outlaws have to find an incompetent Jason Todd. I actually like the clarification on Kori's memory, and brings a new aspect to what happened to their relationship, and that Roy has a bit of a past with Jason as well. These guy all have these dark pasts with secrets beginning to be shed, and to actually put their bond to the test is something that hasn't been explored in this series yet. We have seen them gain a better appreciation for each other, now it is time to put their feet to the fire and see what happens.

#5 Posted by Teerack (7164 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow so if this sticks basically Jason is dead. :|

And I swear to god if the second story arch of Red Hood and the Outlaws sense this new writer took over is Roy Harper getting saved by Oliver f**king Queen of all people I might stop reading it.

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#6 Posted by Alak (928 posts) - - Show Bio

While I didn't really care before, I'm kind of curious to see what happened between Kori and Dick now. That must've been some break up if she was launching star bolts at him.

#7 Edited by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak: @teerack: @wessaari: @nathaniel_christopher: @god_spawn:

- Honestly, i feel like i've just been given the proverbial middle finger.

- I spent nearly two years reading this series and for what? For Tynion to erase the work of Lobdell, the only writer who has actually progressed Jason's character from the standstill that it was in?

- This guy basically erases two years of Lobdell's work, ruins Jason's relationship with Bruce and brings it back to square one(With help from Tomasi during his drivel), erases Jason's memories, and also gives the middle finger to Lobdell by stating "Oh, Kori's memories don't work like that anymore! **** you Lobdell, and **** all you you fans as well".

- I mean, seriously? What's the point of this arc? To erase all of Jason's character progression (the only character progression he's had at all since his resurrection if i might add), and buy time until Snyder is done with Zero Year so that he can write another atrocious crossover because Tynion is too incompetent to actually think of a worthwhile and interesting storyline? That's what Tynion is evidently attempting to do. Oh hey, maybe this is just DC being too afraid to change the status quo, again. Surprise, surprise.

- I should have known better than to actually believe that a DC title could contain something as simple, and logical as character progression and change.

- Additionally, this guy has managed to get on my list of the writers i hate most in only two issues. That has got to be some kind of record. Moreover, i won't be surprise if Tynion manages to take this series into the ground and gets it cancelled. I would just like to note that Jason is my favorite character and this was my favorite series. Therefore, it hurts me to say this but, R.I.P. RHATO, you had a good 18 issue run.

#8 Edited by Teerack (7164 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251:

Yeah that's why I said he basically killed Jason Todd if this sticks, and even if Jason comes back he has ruined so much work put into Jason and Bruce's relationship like it was nothing.

And considering 18 was Lobel's final issue I can't even think of a more out right literary slap in the face. If Tynion really has such a huge problem with everything Lobel has been doing to the characters the past two years then DC really should have never put him on the book. It's beyond stupid.

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#9 Edited by Extremis (3361 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: I didn't read it, so I'm not sure how Tynion's interpretation of Jason is. But maybe you should take it easy on him, as he's still a pretty good writer. He's done a great job on Batman backups for Scott Snyder and his Talon is one of DC's most underrated titles right now. So you calling him an idiot seems a bit harsh and unwarranted. We should support these young new writers who work so hard to carve out a place from themselves in big companies like DC. I'm proud of James, and if his Jason Todd isn't great at the moment, maybe we should give him a chance to turn it around.

#10 Posted by God_Spawn (38139 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: I think it's too early to say much of anything. We are two issues in and we haven't even gotten out of the first arc yet. If what Tynion did remains permanent, then yeah, you have a case. Until then I think you're jumping to conclusions a bit early on.

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#11 Posted by wessaari (630 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: Dude, I love how much you care about this series, but give the guy an arc, and then you can fully judge him. Tomasi is more to blame on Bruce and Jason's relationship, and don't get met started on him, because I can't stand the way he writes Batman. I personally have found James to be an very talented and passionate writer. He is honestly doing what he thinks is best, and he is doing this in the setting that Lobdell created. He brought back Essence, a very mysterious character that I love, and am happy to see return. Let's face it, Kori's memory thing was very sketchy at best and though it was nice to keep it ambiguous and have us guessing, clarification isn't necessarily a bad thing. What I don't want is for Jason to be like this permanently and honestly it doesn't seem likely that he will be like this for very long. Which means, his memories return, along with his emotions with Bruce. I think he can learn to forgive an insanely grief-stricken father ( though that may be a slap to the face because of the way Tomasi writes Batman. He literally acted as though Jason wasn't his son and he would use anyone to get Damian back. That may not be Bruce, but freaking Tomasi).

Just give the arc a chance, we have an annual, a very high achievement, and I don't think that we are going to go down in sales. We keep this book alive, and if James ends up not being well-suited for the job then lets hope we will find someone who will.

#12 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack said:

@thejman251:

Yeah that's why I said he basically killed Jason Todd if this sticks, and even if Jason comes back he has ruined so much work put into Jason and Bruce's relationship like it was nothing.

And considering 18 was Lobel's final issue I can't even think of a more out right literary slap in the face. If Tynion really has such a huge problem with everything Lobel has been doing to the characters the past two years then DC really should have never put him on the book. It's beyond stupid.

- I agree.

- As a fan, this is probably the most utterly disrespectful thing that a new writer can do. The one of the only ways that this could get worse is if he simply kills Jason off.

- Honestly, i'm not sure that DC even knows what they're doing anymore as i don't understand how they could allow such an atrocity to occur.

- I'm guessing that RHATO is so insignificant that they don't care about it's fans and this is me giving DC the benefit of the doubt. The alternative would be that they, along with Tynion, are too incompetent to get a decent story out and have an astronomical fear for character progression and even an insignificant change in the status quo.

- I suppose that Jason must have the "Grr!!, I'm mad, i hate you Batman!!" stance forever and ever hmm? How utterly, utterly inane.

@extremis said:

@thejman251: I didn't read it, so I'm not sure how Tynion's interpretation of Jason is. But maybe you should take it easy on him, as he's still a pretty good writer. He's done a great job on Batman backups for Scott Snyder and his Talon is one of DC's most underrated titles right now. So you calling him an idiot seems a bit harsh and unwarranted. We should support these young new writers who work so hard to carve out a place from themselves in big companies like DC. I'm proud of James, and if his Jason Todd isn't great at the moment, maybe we should give him a chance to turn it around.

- He can be a decent writer on other books all he wants however, when this individual has the audacity to come on my favorite book and erase and completely disregard the work of the previous author, i'm going to be extremely livid about it. Moreover, this has basically made my 1.5-2 year investment in this series utterly trivial.

- Especially, when Lobdell was the only writer who actually progressed Jason's character from the standstill that it was in since his resurrections. This is possibly, one of the most insulting things that DC could do to fans of the series and to Lobdell.

- There's a writer having a rocky start, and then there's a writer doing an atrocious job and basically ruining the entire series. I'm leaning very heavily towards the latter on this one.

- I don't know why you erase ALL of the main characters memories right after he's had the only significant character progression that he's ever had , among other things. However, i suppose that Tynion either doesn't use logic or simply hates Lobdell and the fans of RHATO. Tomasi's asinine drivel and cooperation did not help this matter either.

- Seriously, if all of these writers hate Jason so much, why not simply kill him off again sticking the middle finger to all of his fans like we're as idiotic as DC? Oh wait, probably because DC is making these decisions, or simply doesn't care.

#13 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: I think it's too early to say much of anything. We are two issues in and we haven't even gotten out of the first arc yet. If what Tynion did remains permanent, then yeah, you have a case. Until then I think you're jumping to conclusions a bit early on.

- Well, this may be true however, i don't exactly know what to do when a new writer comes on and simply says "Lol no! Forget this, lets wipe memories and have a grand new adventure and forget about the last 18 issues".

- The question isn't really if Jason will get his memories back or not ( i don't believe that Tynion has the audacity to attempt something like Jason not getting his memory back), it's that he's completely disregarded(in my opinoin of course) nearly all of Lobdell's work and character progression. When Jason gets his memory back in 3-5+ months or so, he'll be back at the "Grr, i hate you Batman!" stage again(most likely). The fact that said stage was what Lobdell spent 18 issues, and i 1.5-2 years reading, progressing Jason from is what i find the most insulting.

- However, the only thing i can do is see where this arc goes.

@wessaari said:

@thejman251: Dude, I love how much you care about this series, but give the guy an arc, and then you can fully judge him. Tomasi is more to blame on Bruce and Jason's relationship, and don't get met started on him, because I can't stand the way he writes Batman. I personally have found James to be an very talented and passionate writer. He is honestly doing what he thinks is best, and he is doing this in the setting that Lobdell created. He brought back Essence, a very mysterious character that I love, and am happy to see return. Let's face it, Kori's memory thing was very sketchy at best and though it was nice to keep it ambiguous and have us guessing, clarification isn't necessarily a bad thing. What I don't want is for Jason to be like this permanently and honestly it doesn't seem likely that he will be like this for very long. Which means, his memories return, along with his emotions with Bruce. I think he can learn to forgive an insanely grief-stricken father ( though that may be a slap to the face because of the way Tomasi writes Batman. He literally acted as though Jason wasn't his son and he would use anyone to get Damian back. That may not be Bruce, but freaking Tomasi).

Just give the arc a chance, we have an annual, a very high achievement, and I don't think that we are going to go down in sales. We keep this book alive, and if James ends up not being well-suited for the job then lets hope we will find someone who will.

- Yes, Tomasi.

- The way he wrote Batman as an asinine non compassionate idiot was incredibly insulting.

- Additionally, Tomasi's Batman was highly out of character compared to Batman 20 and Justice League 20. It's almost if Tomasi disregarded every other Batman writer when he worked on B&R 20.

- See that's the thing. Let's say he is contemplating forgiving Bruce when he gets his memories back. What then? He wants to forgive Bruce, contemplates it for a few issues and then forgives him, and goes back to the point which Lobdell progressed him to? For what purpose would Tynion be leading us around the proverbial wagon like idiots to simply go back to what Lobdell accomplished? What would be the point of that, to make it seem like Tynion actually did something worthwhile with Jason's character? Additionally, i'm not sure if this guy has any ideas for the series at all.

- Additionally, yes Tomasi has written Batman 19-20 in such an asinine way that Bruce is astronomically more insane than usual.

- Yes at the end of the day, i simply have to see where Tynion takes this book whether i like it or not. Maybe we'll get to see more flashbacks of Jason as Robin, or some interesting interaction with Cheshire , or with the LOA or something....

- I can only hope that things start looking up.

#14 Edited by God_Spawn (38139 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: But no one is forgetting the last 18 issues, save for Jason and that is part of the plot to begin with. And again, we don't know if Jason will be vindictive about Bruce. Sure he was pissed, but he had every right to be. And considering what just happened between DotF, Jason's struggles, what the Joker said (something Lobdell wrote himself which had a part in setting in motion for what Tynion did), and what Bruce did in Tomasi's issue, and Jason flying off the handle isn't out of character for him. I can understand your perspective, but nothing has happened yet to make any claims.

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#15 Edited by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@thejman251: But no one is forgetting the last 18 issues, save for Jason and that is part of the plot to begin with. And again, we don't know if Jason will be vindictive about Bruce. Sure he was pissed, but he had every right to be. And considering what just happened between DotF, Jason's struggles, what the Joker said (something Lobdell wrote himself which had a part in setting in motion for what Tynion did), and what Bruce did in Tomasi's issue, and Jason flying off the handle isn't out of character for him. I can understand your perspective, but nothing has happened yet to make any claims.

- The way i see it, Tynion and Tomasi have managed to dissipate Jason's entire character progression along with his memory.

- The character that came running to Saru asking him to erase his memories because he could not handle life did not seem like the Jason Todd i knew at all. The guy went from being pissed at the end of B&R 20 to being scared out of his mind in RHATO 19 which i hardly understand. He goes from being angry at Bruce to being scared?

- Also, if Jason gets his memories back, then what is the point of this?

- I'm not going to make any claims about the arc itself, or how it will pan out, as i think it's effects will be either detrimental to Jason's character progression or simply irrelevant.

- Additionally, Kori went from not remembering humans and not being defined by the men in her life to, living a lie every day of her life because of the men in her life. More reverse character progression in my opinion and this is somewhat sexist as well.

- I simply don't see the point of this arc, and i also feel as though my time has been completely wasted. Additionally, i'm not sure that Jason will simply forgive Bruce so easily. However, that's all about 5 months to a year from now, so i guess we can deal with that when the time comes and we're back to where we were two months ago.

- Furthermore, i honestly can't find anything good about this issue, or issue 19.

#16 Posted by wessaari (630 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: Thats all you can do at this point man, look up

#17 Edited by Extremis (3361 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251: Well I thought Lobdell was very 'meh'. His book never went anywhere and the sexist portrayal of the Starfire character was enough for me to stop reading.

So everything you've said makes me want to check it out. Good move DC!

#18 Posted by lilcraig92 (80 posts) - - Show Bio

Somebody too emotional lmaoo

#19 Edited by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis said:

@thejman251: Well I thought Lobdell was very 'meh'. His book never went anywhere and the sexist portrayal of the Starfire character was enough for me to stop reading.

So everything you've said makes me want to check it out. Good move DC!

"Stop" reading? What? After one issue? Two?

It is impossible for anyone who actually read even half of Lobdell's run to actually believe that his Starfire was just cheesecake. Lobdell made her one of my favorite characters -- not that she couldn't have been one before, but this was my first time reading her and he made me care about her and want to know more about her past.

The thoughts of people who did not enjoy and follow this series are irrelevant. The book went plenty of places and featured a lot of development for all three characters. Tomasi's issue outright wrecked the beautiful conclusion of Lobdell's run, and Tynion's arc temporarily undoes absolutely all of Jason's development since Flashpoint. If Jason doesn't get his memories back, I'd absolutely drop the book. Tynion's two issues took this from the top of my pull list (it was my favorite DC title) to probation.

That said, I think Jman's reaction is a bit over the top. I agree pretty much completely with what @wessaari said above.

#20 Posted by daredevil21134 (12161 posts) - - Show Bio

I will give the new guy 1 full arc to impress me.Right now he's not doing so well

#21 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (12064 posts) - - Show Bio

It's two issues in, I suggest not jumping the gun so quickly. Give it a few more issues, a whole arc, or whatever before coming to a conclusion. But with that said, I do agree that his treatment of Jason is quite terrible. But I'm going to let him tell this story before I make a final judgement. Lastly, I kind of like his new take on Starfire, with her pretending to forget things to protect herself, it seems to make her more "human" and it gives a future story possibility between her and Dick.

#22 Edited by Extremis (3361 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert: it doesn't change the sexist way in which she was portrayed.

#23 Edited by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

@extremis: Of course you're right. One bad issue does override seventeen subsequent issues. Silly me.

#24 Posted by Extremis (3361 posts) - - Show Bio
#25 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@extremis said:

@thejman251: Well I thought Lobdell was very 'meh'. His book never went anywhere and the sexist portrayal of the Starfire character was enough for me to stop reading.

So everything you've said makes me want to check it out. Good move DC!

"Stop" reading? What? After one issue? Two?

It is impossible for anyone who actually read even half of Lobdell's run to actually believe that his Starfire was just cheesecake. Lobdell made her one of my favorite characters -- not that she couldn't have been one before, but this was my first time reading her and he made me care about her and want to know more about her past.

The thoughts of people who did not enjoy and follow this series are irrelevant. The book went plenty of places and featured a lot of development for all three characters. Tomasi's issue outright wrecked the beautiful conclusion of Lobdell's run, and Tynion's arc temporarily undoes absolutely all of Jason's development since Flashpoint. If Jason doesn't get his memories back, I'd absolutely drop the book. Tynion's two issues took this from the top of my pull list (it was my favorite DC title) to probation.

That said, I think Jman's reaction is a bit over the top. I agree pretty much completely with what @wessaari said above.

- I agree for the most part.

@wessaari said:

@thejman251: Thats all you can do at this point man, look up

- Yes, i have no choice as this seems to very well be rock bottom.

@akbogert said:

@extremis: Of course you're right. One bad issue does override seventeen subsequent issues. Silly me.

- Two issues.

#26 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1683 posts) - - Show Bio

Too early to judge where this whole memory wipe thing is heading I think. The Bruce/Jason relationship however can be judged now. What happened was simply idiotic and really does make Bruce look like an insensitive Dick that cares more about Damian than he does Jason.

#27 Edited by thejman1993 (10 posts) - - Show Bio

Too early to judge where this whole memory wipe thing is heading I think. The Bruce/Jason relationship however can be judged now. What happened was simply idiotic and really does make Bruce look like an insensitive Dick that cares more about Damian than he does Jason.

- I agree.

- To be honest and blunt, Tomasi's fatuous drivel pissed me off alot.

#28 Posted by akbogert (3224 posts) - - Show Bio

Too early to judge where this whole memory wipe thing is heading I think. The Bruce/Jason relationship however can be judged now. What happened was simply idiotic and really does make Bruce look like an insensitive Dick that cares more about Damian than he does Jason.

Quite true.

The question which remains to be answered is whether, dealt such a crappy hand, Tynion can salvage it, or whether what he does really transforms this into a completely new kind of book.

And since I didn't comment on it before, I like the thing with Kori's memory. I think Lobdell left it intentionally vague; I think that what Tynion introduced here in that respect is perfectly in keeping with what had been suggested earlier, and it was something that really did need to get addressed at some point. In fact that was, other than the suggestion that the memory wipe will be dealt with sooner rather than later, my favorite part of the issue, because it's something that I know a lot of readers have been asking about since the very beginning.

#29 Posted by AColombia (102 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak: wait what happens din the issue with Dick? I didn't see him being mentioned. Just that she does remember stuff. Could u explain please? All tha has me confused

#30 Edited by Alak (928 posts) - - Show Bio

@alak: wait what happens din the issue with Dick? I didn't see him being mentioned. Just that she does remember stuff. Could u explain please? All tha has me confused

In Starfire's memories, we see her shooting her starbolts at disco Nightwing. It was really short, but enough to hint that they had a pretty bad break-up. Roy also got a little up-in-arms over seeing Dick in her memories, although I'm not 100% sure if it's because she lied about not remembering him or if it's because of the way those two broke up.