Is Jason Todd better off alone, or is he better with a team/GF?

@JasonTodd13 said:

@god_spawn: no he didnt, he thought of it not actually did it, big difference. And no he is not a supernatural hunter, hes a person who guns down the common street thugs.

You've admitted to not having the read the series. So what pray tell gives you any sort of judgement on anything that has happened in it? He isn't lying to himself, it was a revelation he made to himself. I never said he likes Bruce, he admitted the fact what happened isn't driving his life anymore and it doesn't matter. he even did Batman a favor in Court of the Owls Tie in. He has also been facing the Unknown monsters and was recently on Tameran fighting aliens.

@god_spawn: I know Jason better than any other character in the DCU, though its the new 52, I believe he has remained the same. Thinking of letting go of something is different from lying to yourself, it means he considered making peace with Bruce and everything, but its too hard to let go, as his death was pretty violent and traumatising and his killer is still alive murdering other people. once again, teaming with bruce in the owls story is just sentiment for the old days when he was robin, so it means nothing. Jason should stick with street thugs, not monsters, completely out of character.

@JasonTodd13: He did think it in the sense of "maybe should I do this?" He thought as it was a revelation. It's him finally moving past it. Whether he thought it, said it, it doesn't matter cause he has. Yes, it was a gruesome death but Jason doesn't care anymore. You haven't read the book and you are keeping him in a box, which is what I said in my very post people keep doing. RHTO has let Jason grow as a character, your definition of his out of character is what he was and now this is what he has evolved to. He doesn't just kill and fight criminals anymore, he still does, but that isn't his only target anymore. You have no defense here with him, so stop acting as if you do.

@god_spawn: He did not thought of it as a revelation, he considered it in his thoughts, he did not act on it, he did try to kill batman in the new 52, I saw a scan of it, but i cant remember where it was. He hasnt moved on, he is still at odds with the Batfamily, I heard he had a fight with Damian, there is no evidence he has, he still kills people, he wears the bat symbol and kills , probably to piss off the batfamily. I am not keeping Jason in a box, what makes you think that? He was awesome in under the hood storyline, a solo character determined to get vengeance against batman and the joker, constantly beating the crap out of members of the bat family and trying to kill them, it shows what happens when murdered person does when he comes back to life finding his murderer still lives killing other people. With the Joker storyline coming up, i wont be surprised hes planning to try and force batman to kill the joker again or maybe try and kill the joker himself. none of you have definite unflawed evidence that says hes moved on.

@JasonTodd13: We do have definite proof, it was in the book which you have not read, so again, I don't know why you think you can say otherwise?

Him attempting to kill Batman was a flashback scene. It was long before the beginning of RHTO. Meaning it happened long before his revelation.

Damian attacked him because Damian wanted to prove he was the best Robin. You wanna know what Jason did later in that arc? Teamed up with Nightwing, Tim and Damian to save the day.

@god_spawn: , i bet when i read it, there is no definite unflawed proof. I think people are fooling themselves in to thinking jason has turned a new leaf, there needs to be an ex batfamily member that has gone rogue and Jason fills that category. Damian is not the best robin, he is the worse robin ever in the history of batman comics, temporary team ups mean nothing to Jason.

Better off alone. He should be like the DC's Punisher.

I love RHatO but I'd love to see jason being more badass like in Under the Red Hood. Not sure how it could be accomplished without dropping the rest of the team tho =[

Maybe someone can find another place for starfire and roy...and bring in some darker, more extreme characters to be part of the outlaws. (Or even make the existing outlaws darker...meh just a thought)

Yes, Jason is more awesome solo.

@namtabmi said:

I love RHatO but I'd love to see jason being more badass like in Under the Red Hood. Not sure how it could be accomplished without dropping the rest of the team tho =[

Maybe someone can find another place for starfire and roy...and bring in some darker, more extreme characters to be part of the outlaws. (Or even make the existing outlaws darker...meh just a thought)

Well in general the type of character he was in Under the Red Hood goes against the type of character he is in RHATO. Similar to how the type of character Batman was before Tim Drake and the type he was after Tim Drake are different. To get him back to that dark place I don't think he'd be able to stay with the Outlaws. I think he'd end up pushing them away, again similar to Bruce at various times.

@Nathaniel_Christopher: well he doesnt need people to hold him back from his true potential.

@JasonTodd13 said:

@god_spawn: He probably said that to shut Starfire and Roy up, because it is impossible to get over what happened to him, he was bashed by a crowbar and was caught in the explosion that killed him, then he comes back and finds his murderer still alive , murdering other people, nobody can get over that, not Jason not everyone else. they are stunting his growth, they are trying to ruin his character, trying to make him into a hero, but his hero days were over the day he died, hes an anti hero now, always will be.

How're they stunting his growth if he's, y'know, actually growing? Your idea of him never being able to get over his death and gunning down street thugs for the rest of his life? Isn't THAT stunting growth, seeing as how there wouldn't be any?

@nmiller1939: not physical growth, i meant growth as a character. i dont see how it is possible to get over a death that he went through. maybe one day if the writers somehow make it possible and realistic for him to move past his death then it could happen but not now, his death and resurrection are too recent, and he needs help from a person who can empathize with what hes been through, and so far there has been no one who has sympathized or empathized with what hes been through.

@briangsharon said:

Yeah hes become kind of soft in a team. If anything he should be on a team but one that is far more savage than the Outlaws.

Jason Todd w/suicide squad for example.

Secret Six anyone?

@JasonTodd13: Alone

Well now. I got Red Hood and the Outlaws Volume 1 and I still saw hes better off alone as Starfire is a sex symbol and and Roy is an idiot (they completely butchered Roys character). Oh, and by the way Jason was not resurrected by the lazarus pit and everybody has been saying in the new 52, what utter rubbish, just look at the scene where Talia talks to Ducra and she clearly says Jason was already resurrected before being put into the pit, so i dont know what rubbish people has been talking about.

- Oh you just got volume one? You mean after you sat here and telling people that Jason hadn't move on after his death, and a multitude of other things about the character that you couldn't possibly have known without reading the book? Interesting.

- Since you though that Jason wasn't over his death and everything that happened, here are a few spoilers that you can click at your own risk. You have been warned, so i really don't want to hear any complaints about the pics. You don't have to press the button.

- Oh and Jason has made amends with Bruce, i know that will probably ruffle your feathers, but it's pretty much a canon fact now.

-

- However, you are correct about him not being revived by the lazarus pit.

- As for the topic at hand, i don't mind him with a team as it provides more opportunity for character development in my opinion.

This is a tough one. I think as far as book sales Red Hood would sell better if he had his own solo title but for areas of character development he needs a team to help keep him from isolating himself from all other characters of the DC universe. I know New52 Roy and Kori get dissed a lot but they have done wonders for improving Jason's mental stability. Hearing other peoples' perspectives on life allow Jason to be aware that his decisions might not always be the right ones.

Agreed.But I would so love a Jason Todd solo

I like that idea

@thejman250: All that shows from your spoilers link, is that Bruce hugs Jason, that shows no evidence that hes moved on from his death or that hes made peace with Bruce, Bruce was just comforting Jason after what the Joker did to his face. I got red Hood and the Outlaws Volume 1 and its clear hes not moved on as he still kills criminals and gets rid of his most cherished memory so he can get better at killing scum. Besides its more awesome that hes still angry at the Bat family because he believes none of them cared when he was murdered and that they forgot him, Being a former Batfamily member that completely separates himself from the Batfamily is just so badass.

Anyway, being in a team isnt providing character development, I havent seen anything in Volume 1 of any character development, hes still the same ex Robin who hates everyone. Just look at what he did to Susie Sue and killing the guy who tries to stop him leaving that ship where a group of guys were trying to smuggle nuclear weapons.

@dngn4774: Where are the moments when Roy and Starfire do wonders for mental stability? Theres nothing even wrong with Jasons mental stability in the first, hes just angry at being forgotten and believing no one cared when he died. I got Volume 1 and hes still killing bad guys and that, and I even know he kills Susie Sue later on (even though I havent got the issue yet). Besides Jason doesnt really care about Roy and Starfire anyway, they just tools to him that he can use for his own reasons. And them telling him about their lives has no impact on Jasons decisions... as far as I know.

With the exception of Nightwing all the robins work better on a team or with a partner.

@teerack: Jason doesnt work well with anyone at all, as he shown disdain at Roy and Starfire in RHATO, like when he didnt care that Roy and Starfire slept together, thinks Roy is an idiot and hasnt shown he even cares for Starfire. Anyway, Nightwing works well in a team as the New 52 Nightwing isnt so different from pre 52 Nightwing.

That's one way of looking at it. What I've gotten from the RHATO and Batman Incorporated is that Jason needs other people because without other people he becomes the kind of person he doesn't want to be. Pretty much all we've seen from Jason in the New 52 is him wanting to be a better person but being hesitant to do it or being too hard on himself, but his friends and family(batman) are helping become the kind of man he wants to be.

- He's clearly moved on from his death sir. I'f you had been paying attention, he clearly states that he's moved on in Red Hood Volume 1. He's not angry at the family anymore sir. I've read all 18 issues that are currently published, i think i would know.

- Do you need more scans to be convinced or something because Jason has made amends with most of the family. So, that's pretty much it for your angry Jason character.

- Lobdell has developed Jason's character beyond simply being the angry black sheep, and punisher-wannabe character. Additionally, no writer has been able to do that since Jason has came back.

- Just let me know if you need more scans like this one below. I direct you to the panel where he says "none of that matters anymore". If you missed it, it's in the lower right hand corner of the page.

First off, I don't know why your even arguing with me if you only read 7 of the 18 issues. Secondly, it's common sense that when anti heroes isolated themselves from other superheroes it leaves them vulnerable to making much dark choices, mainly because they have know one to help restrain their darker impulses when they are alone. Lastly, the group members aren't tools to be used for his own reasons they are his friends. An argument can be made that Roy doesn't contribute much as a friend to Jason, but if he didn't care about him he could have left Arsenal to die in the dozens of dangerous situations they were in. Starfire nursed him back to health in issue 6 and if she didn't mean anything to him he wouldn't have bothered helping her save her home world from the Blight. In issue 17 he even questions Dick's treatment of her and says:

I think that girl out there is more amazing than you ever gave her credit for.

this is undeniable proof that at least one if not both of his teammates matter to him.

also, if your actually bothered buying issue 18 you'd know that the 29 pages proceeding the jman's scan do in fact prove Jason's desire to move past his death and forgive Bruce. I don't like this fact either but regardless, it is now canon so get over it.

I'm probably well in the minority here...but Jason Todd is better dead.

His death added a nice element to Batman, he was pretty unlikable originally, and since his resurrection his characterization has been all over the place.

Though his current incarnation in Red Hood and the Outlaws is enjoyable enough, it's not enough for me to overlook the rest of the junk.

@crash_recovery: Wrong thread. You should have posted here

http://www.comicvine.com/jason-todd/4005-6849/forums/does-it-bother-anyone-that-jason-todd-is-alive-684673/#55

- Being that the number of votes to kill him off was only 28(or around there) votes greater than the amount of votes to keep him alive, i highly doubt that he was as heavily disliked as people love to imply.

- His characterization has been straightforward except for Morrison's take on him, and possibly Battle for the Cowl.

- This basically.

@teerack: Jason may need other people to help him become a better person but he does not think so, he only thinks of himself as the "failed" Robin, the person nobody cared about when he died and was completely forgotten about (despite Bruce and Alfred being the only people who cared when he died and didnt forget him). Jason got along fine since his resurrection and is clearly an anti hero and is not becoming a person he doesnt want to become, everything he does is to spite Bruce and the Batfamily, or stuff he needs to take care off from his past or what he wants to do. Anyway, hes exiled himself away from the Batfamily, completely separated from them, so how could they help him?

You're up to date in RHATO's and you really think he does everything to spite Bruce? O.o I mean did you not read the most recent issue or did you not read into any of the heavy symbolism in the dream? Jason thought he was angry at Bruce, but he admitted to being more angry at himself. He felt like a failure because he thought he let Batman down, and because of that it lead him down a very self destructive path.

Now about him cutting himself off from the rest of the bat family. In the new 52 one of the first things they did was creative a relationship between the two reds Tim and Jason. He never really had much contact with Batgirl so it's no shock he doesn't care about her. Him and Dick honestly have pretty much the same relationship they had even when Jason was Robin. He worked with Damian a lot in Batman Inc. and then tried to reach out to him later on when everyone was at the safe house.

Considering that the Joker's goal was to drive the rest of the bat family away from Bruce in Death in the Family. Jason was probably the one person who was least pushed away. The end of his story from this event was that Jason and Bruce were finally able to really forgive each other and move on. While everyone else just wanted to be left alone.

In issue 18, he states that he loves Kori and Roy. Issue 17, he states that he will take care of Kori for the rest of his life.

he is in Batman Incorporated, so he has not exiled himself from the Batfamily. If he is to spite Bruce, why help with Batman Incorporated, why visit Bruce in the Batcave in Batman #16

You really need to read the newer issues.

I prefer him as a villain. He was at his highest as a villain, and at his lowest on a team.

Lobdell is trying to do that to Tim apparently

or they could give me back my F&*%king Outsiders!!!!!!!!!!!

@avenging_x_bolt: Meh I could take or leave Outsiders. IMO the only likable members were Creeper and Geo Force.

really? i was never that big on Geo-Force. he was ok for the most part but he became unlikeabe to me after Dan Didio took over. as a matter of fact, nearly everyone becomes unlikeable to me after Dan Didio writes them.

That could be cool

@thejman250: He clearly hasnt moved if you paid attention to RHATO volume 1, he shows disdain that Satrfire shows him Nightwings old outfits, as he hates Dick. He is still angry at them and thats what makes him awesome.

Jason has not made amends with them, and anyway its the batfamily that needs to make amends with him, as its their fault for making him become the Red Hood, Bruce not being much of a father figure to him and Dick who hated Jason for replacing him as Robin. I have read what all 18 issues are about in summary and there is nothing there that shows hes made peace with them.

Jason is the same as ever, nothing has changed, he still has that same hatred towards Joker and the Batfamily and he shows disdain to every other character in the DC Universe, Yes hes developed, but he is still the same person.

Pay attention to the scene, Jason is fighting an untitled, he needed to put all other things in his mind aside to defeat this untitled otherwise he would probably be killed, after he kills it he goes back to hating the batfamily as its all he can think about.

@dngn4774: Jason has never actually did anything villainous at all, nor has he shown any dark impulses at all, you are probably going to say he attacked the bat family and other heroes as "so called" evidence of him becoming a villain, but its not, he does not try and kill them for the same purdposes as villains, he tries to kill them because he wants to punish them for forgetting about him and not caring when he dies, and its not a villainous reason, hes just a tragic character who believes that no one cared about him. Roy and Starfire arent his friends, he never said that they were his friends, and anyway, hes using Roy and Starfire so he can find criminals to kill, he doesnt care about them at all after all they are Dicks friends not his. He rescued Roy to use him, not because it was the right reason to do and with Starfire he helped save her planet to get even with her rescuing him at the beginning of volume 1. And what he said to Dick was him trying to find a way to ditch Starfire by giving her back to Dick to which Dick refused as Jason himself said he doesnt say goodbye.

Lastly, my country is behind in new 52 comics so you cant lecture me about not buying issue 18 when its not available yet, volume 2 isnt even out yet in my country. And Jason will never forgive Bruce as he has too much hatred towards him thats why he gave away his most cherish memory in volume 1.

@teerack: Hes angry at himself and bruce, angry that he let his own adoptive mom betray him, angry because he think he failed Bruce, angry at Bruce for replacing him with Tim, angry Bruce didnt avenge his death, angry because he believes no one cared when he died, angry because he believed they all forgot him.

Jason and Tim hate each other, Jason hates Tim for replacing him, Tim hates Jason for trying to kill him multiple times. And one friendly conversation with Tim does not mean anything, Jason has his own reasons for "helping" out Tim with Info on Cassie Sandsmark, so he doesnt give a crap about Tim. Are you saying Dick still hates Jason after Jason came back? Wow they really messed Dick up in that aspect regarding Jason in new 52 because pre 52 had Dick tying to offer Jason to help him. As for Damian, he only tries to offer advice to Damian to not become like him, so he really doesnt care about Damian either except that he doesnt want anyone else (Damian in this important point) to go through what he did with Joker.

WithJoker trying to pushe everyone away from Bruce, Jason was already "away" from Bruce for years since his resurrection, so Joker only tries to kill Jason not try to push him away from Batman as he knows Jason hates Batman for not avenging his death and that Jason has no relationship with Bruce anymore. As for that scene you mentioned, Bruce is trying to comfort Jason and knows that doing this will not change anything and that jason still hates him.

@wessaari: Either Jason is lying or you are lying, it has to be one way or the other, no matter which way its still the same thing. Who says Jason is "in" Batman Incorporated? Just because he helps out now and again doesnt mean hes actually apart of it. He helped Batman Incorporated because there are bad guys to kill and he wants relive his good old days when he was Robin. As for visiting Bruce in the batcave, its most likely he wants to gloat and prove to Bruce that he should have killed Joker a long time ago, plus he wants to help out so he can get a chance to kill Joker.

@avenging_x_bolt: ???????????????? What are you talking about? Jason is the ex Robin gone Rogue, not Tim and people have been saying Tim wasnt Robin in the new 52...

@jasontodd11: Holly crap your interpretation of events is blowing my mind right now.

@jasontodd11: I am not lying, and neither is Jason. In issue 18, the main story takes place within Jason's mind, while Ducra is trying to keep Jason on the right path. She shows him an image of Roy and Kori dead, and he cries out. He tells her he loves them. Jason wouldn't lie in his own mind, and there is no way you can stretch that out to the point where it fits your narrative.

Both Bruce and Jason have a moment together once he awakens, and apologizes to Bruce in his mind. There might be some left over anger, but for the most part he has gotten over his anger. Volume 2 isn't even out in America, and it won't have the newer issues. But you can read scans that will show Jason's admittance, and their moment together.

You know the whole volume 1 is called Redemption right? He basically says that romance and friendship is based off the same kind of love, mentioning Kori, and how she helped him when they were on her island. Scott Lobdell, and James Tynion (the writer taking over from Lobdell) have both said that they are writing stories that show Jason's redemption. But I really don't think that means anything to you, even though that is coming from the people writing Jason Todd.

You really have no idea what you are talking about, and you act as though you know everything from reading the first volume, which you have a very skewed perspective of. I know you haven't read the newer issues, but Jason has mentioned, the writers have mentioned that these three characters are friends. But that means nothing to you, so what is the point of trying

@avenging_x_bolt: This guy was banned for this kind of crap for months, and now he is back pulling it again. No matter how hard we try, no matter how everything is laid out against everything he is saying, he will continue to have this skewed view on how things are turning out. he will use the most ridiculous excuses to try and prove his point, but in the end the proof is there. We can enjoy how Jason is progressing and the his adventures in RHTO, while he can see things the way he wants them. I recommend to try and ignore what he is saying, and not let it get to you. i have tried for too long, and it isnt worth it.

@jasontodd11: What you want Jason Todd to be isn't the character that he is currently being written as by DC. Every thing you've said is contradicted in the book so there's no reason for me to continue arguing with you since you can't be convinced by facts. Your thoughts are not cannon what the writers publish is.

I will add that your views on his relationship with his teammates are way too cynical. He's not trying to constantly exploit Starfire and Roy and he has the skills to hunt down any criminals he wants with or without their help. Your also twisting the quote I displayed to fit your own delusions of what you want Red Hood to do with Starfire (it's illogical for him to toss away the most powerful member of his team especially to someone like Grayson). Also he shared that memory with his team because he's over trying to get revenge on Bruce and is ready to move forward on his own path. He knows that he could never go back to being Robin but he also knows that the past is behind him and wasting any more time on what could've been is pointless.

Lastly, I do have the right to lecture you on continuity if you repeatedly make suppositions that contradict cannon details. If all your arguments stem from assumptions from volume one and I am providing proof from later issues that negate your previous statements, I am entitled to use them. Once again, please catch up on the series before you make wild accusations that have nothing to do with New 52 continuity.

- So i take it that you're illiterate?

- What do the words "none of that matters anymore" mean to you?

- Additionally, his chat with starfire was in a , wait for it!, FLASHBACK.

Jason has not made amends with them, and anyway its the batfamily that needs to make amends with him, as its their fault for making him become the Red Hood, Bruce not being much of a father figure to him and Dick who hated Jason for replacing him as Robin. I have read what all 18 issues are about in summary and there is nothing there that shows hes made peace with them.

- Actually he has, you're just incredibly ignorant.

- I'm not going to sit here and debate with you about who's fault it is/was that Jason became the Red Hood, because it's jut your opinion, and you , apparently, aren't too bright.

- Basically, you haven't read the series, and you're completely ignorant for attempting to speak about something which you admitted you are ignorant of.

- let me guess where you read those summaries: wikipedia? Surprise,surprise.

Jason is the same as ever, nothing has changed, he still has that same hatred towards Joker and the Batfamily and he shows disdain to every other character in the DC Universe, Yes hes developed, but he is still the same person.

- Wrong. Refer to the image above. Good luck arguing with Jason's own words sir. "None of that matters anymore".

Pay attention to the scene, Jason is fighting an untitled, he needed to put all other things in his mind aside to defeat this untitled otherwise he would probably be killed, after he kills it he goes back to hating the batfamily as its all he can think about.

- You mean the scene where he admits that he's over what happened?

- You seem to be in denial and you are apparently making any excuse for Jason to be the same character who "hates the batfamily" when he clearly doesn't.

- Typical illogical fanboy who proves the common stereotype to be correct. .

- I have some scans below that would probably convince anyone with sense, but seem to be in denial of your favorite character not being the way you want him to be.

- Oh, and Richard may be the member of the family that he dislikes the most, but he certainly doesn't dislike him.

- Doesn't hate damian:

- Bruce vouches for Jason and Jason thanks Bruce for something else:

- Bruce asks Jason to come home for good:

- There are plenty more pics i could put up however, I don't see the "i hate the bat-family here", but you are apparently blinded by your fanboyism and you haven't even read the issues, so you evidently don't listen to reason at all.

- Jason lying in his own book, to himself? Really? If that is actually the case, how would you know when he isn't lying?

-Would it be only when he says what you want him to say, and what you want to hear when you are only the reader, and the writer's opinion is the one that actually affects the book? Understood.

@avenging_x_bolt: Jason is still a Rogue, He still kills people like Susie Su, and he certainly has the same attitude doing it, and he has shown hatred towards the Batfamily. DC is actually expanding on his anti heroism as the Red Hood, seeing hoe far they can get Jason to go completely Rogue without becoming a complete Villain. The hug was Bruce attempting to comfort Jason after Jason had his face burned, it means nothing and doesnt change anything between him, he still hates Bruce and everyone else.

I doubt DC wants Tim to go Darkside, or whatever, because that will be lame, and we already got one ex Robin gone rogue, they wouldnt make another one as nobody wants a ex Robin copying another ex Robins path.

@wessaari: Then that means Jason himself is lying to himself, sometimes people who have gone rogue do that, lie to themselves because of their conflicting emotions, conflicting emotions makes that sort of thing happen. He only cried out and said he "loved" them because he still has use for them and they are the only two people he wants to use as he mostly isolates himself away from the other characters of the DC Universe. I beg to differ that people cant lie in their own mind, people can do that, and jason is capable of doing so because of conflicting emotions regarding his hatred towards everyone and thinking of trying to be a better person when he knows its too late for him.

Jason either lied again in his own mind or he is merely saying sorry to Bruce in his own mind for failing Bruce and not being the person Bruce wanted him to be and it doesnt change a thing as he didnt actually said those things to Bruce in person only in his mind and he will still return to being the rogue ex Robin when he leaves Gotham or possibly before leaving.

Yes, I am aware that Volume 1 is called Redemption, but it has nothing in it that suggests Jason is trying to redeem himself or change, its a misleading title, thats all. He wasnt talking about Kori when he mentioned Roamnce are basically the same kind of love, he was talking about them in general, not about any person at all. The writers can be misleading at times, it happens a lot in comic books you just have to get use to it.

I do know what Im talking about actually, I have read Under the Red Hood, seen the movie, read Red Hood the lost days, Jasons appearence in Hush, Teen Titans Life and Death,Countdown The Search For Ray Palmer, Battle for the Cowl, Batman and Robin and RHATO Volume 1 itself, so I know perfectly what Jasons character is like showing I know what Im talking about and you act like you read everything about Jason Todd, I get it you want Jason to redeem himself, but that will never happen, its best that you accept Jason is the rogue ex Robin and is going to be that for a long time, and nothing will change that unless they will create a story where he will finally make peace with himself, Bruce and the Batfamily, but that wont happen for a very LONG time. I never said I knew everything either, Im just getting the ideas the writers are trying to get across to audiences, its their intention to show that Jason hasnt changed. Roy and Starfire arent his friends either, if he says they are friends he actually means "friends" which means that they are not his friends and that he is merely using them.

@wessaari: I have no idea what you are talking about, me banned? I only just joined Comic Vine. I dont have ridiculous excuse, I am proving points that fits Jasons character, but your "so called" "evidence" doesnt support Jasons character at all, its like you dont even know Jason at all like you never even read anything with Jason at all. We can enjoy what Jason does and enjoy the fact hes still the guy that people love to hate, and enjoy that hes the only member (formerly) of the bat family to have gone rogue and separate himself completely from them.

@dngn4774: What I Want? I may want it, but its what DC is giving us as there is numerous evidence that shows Jason hasnt changed at all. This is what DC is writing Jason to be, people just have to accept it. Everything I said fits in what RHATO is showing us, everything you said about a redeeming Jason just completely contradicts RHATO altogether.

He is using them, maybe not after common criminals but bigger criminals that they can find that he will enjoy killing. Its actually logical that Jason is trying get rid of Starfire because everyone knows hes not a people person, and she is Dicks friend not Jasons. He didnt share the memory with his team, he gave it away to that guy that looks like a kid, when he did that he had a dark look on his face, that just screams, that hes trying to be more antihero and trying to control his conflicting emotions rather than your fictional thought of him redeeming himself.

Everything you are saying contradicts both Jason and RHATO completely wheras what im saying fits perfectly and fits what the writers are trying to get across.

@thejman250: when he said none of that matters any more, he means in that moment, of fighting the untitled, because it was the only thing that will enable him to defeat this untitled, and means he will goback to hating everyone after he kills the untitled, is it really that hard to undersatnd? He said that in that particular moment not because he actually meant it or is going to stick with it after defeating it, its in that moment only thats all.

Actually he hasnt moved on, he still kills people, looks like you are ignorant.

Everyone including me knows who fault it is, and insulting me will get you banned, Im actually bright you know and I know im right when it comes to Jason as I have studied his character through his comic appearences.

I have read the series, i got RHATO volume 1 and read the sumaries on the issues after that so it looks like you are ignorant as you are just someone who desperately want Jason to redeem himself, when in reality hes the same character he always was since his return in 2005.

Those summaries were from wikia, where the editors monitor the editing of pages, so there is no wrong information there.

Im actually right, I told you its in that moment only, he doesnt say that after killing the untitled if you even noticed.

I mean the scene where Jason puts aside his thoughts temporaily aside so he can defeat this untitled.

Im not in denial, what i said matches Jasons character and is what the writers are trying to get across, you seem in denial because you REALLY want Jason to change when he hasnt at all and hes shown disdain at seeing Nightwings costumes therefore spells he still hates the batfamily.

There is no steriotype, its just what Jason is.

Your scans just prove even more of my points, there is only person that Jason doesnt hate and thats alfred, everyone else he hates. Yes he does hate Dick as he was living in Dicks shadow as Robin and hasnt gone away since. He does hate Damian, he did shot Damian in Battle for the Cowl and he merely gives Damian advice not to get killed like he did at Jokers hands as he doesnt want anyone else suffering his fate, no scans you provided shows he cares at all. Bruce vouched for Jason because he still wants to help/save Jason despite Jason not wanting his help and hating him. And as you know Jason refuses to go home as he still hates Bruce and the batfamily (except alfred). And those scans show Jason as being emotional noting that he still hates them, as emotional scenes has him thinking about his hatred towards the batfamily.

People lie to themselves, in real life it happens as well, like people getting beat up by their spouses, they lie to themselves that everything is going to be okay. So i dont what idea you got that nobody lies to themselves, when they can lie to themselves. I know when Jason is lying when he says someone thats out of his character or that he is trying to trick someone.

The writers stories supports what Im providing, everything in those stories shows Jason as what im trying to point out to you, but you are in hardcase denial.

@jasontodd11: Please, don't play innocent. You are the same person who pulled this crap a couple months ago, and because you started insulting people, you got in trouble. You really don't understand that writers can change the characters, with their stories, but let me guess. Jason can't change because there isn't a good enough story. That makes no sense, as the writer can change the character as he or she sees fit. You look at everything going on in RHTO, which you haven't even read all of, and it all points to Jason redeeming himself. There is no evidence supporting that Jason wants to "get rid" off Kori. He has multiple meaningful conversations with her, tells her that she is his friend, defends her. and then tells Dick that he will look after her for the rest of her life. If you look at his face, if you look at his expressions, nothing suggests that he is lying. It makes no sense to have the name Redemption, to have Jason show emotion to Isabel and the Outlaws, and even Tim for that matter. No everything in the past continuity has happened in the new 52, and that is how you are taking things. You are never wrong about Jason, and the fact that you haven't read all of the series shows you ignorance on the character. Jason has changed, the writers have stated it, the stories have showed it, but it means nothing to you. You come in and act as though you are right above everyone else, even the writers. Either you are a troll, or you really are disillusioned on the character. It makes no sense for Jason to lie to himself, he has no reason to lie, and there is no proof that he lied. You are the only one here that has suggested that he has lied, so why havent the writers of the story said anything to make it clear, and if we the readers are wrong, why haven't the writers explained to us that Jason is lying. Why would he have a tearful, emotional moment with Batman if it was a lie, why would the writer do that if it was fake, why not make Jason's intentions obvious. And it isn't because you are never wrong about Jason, it is because you have no idea what you are talking about, because you have your own predispositioned ideas based off of your readings of him. Things change, that is what the whole new 52 is about, certain stories, scenarios, and events haven't taken place. Character emotions have changed, their histories have changed, including Jason's. So this is the last time I will tell you this, but stop assuming that you control what happens to Jason Todd. It doesn't make any sense, no matter how hard you are trying to prove to yourself. For once, actually read the story with an open mind, instead of your skewed and unjustified views of what YOU want.

I'm gonna repeat this one more time, Old assumptions from vol 1 < new cannon facts from newer issues.

I'm done arguing with you. This is seriously becoming more of a joke than how Jason is mistreated on the Battles forum.

Even the great one would be disappointed with your foolishness. Have a pleasant day and please hide back under the bridge with all of the other trolls, or jump, I have no preference at this point.