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#151 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: yes bruce cares about jason, but hes incapable of telling jason that he cares about him after what jason chose to become. As for giving jason many chances, I dont know, giving him chances would mean jason would have to take bruce up on those chances, which Jason didnt, he didnt want to return to the bat family for help, so those chances didnt really count as Jason, rejected those chances.

#152 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1651 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: yes bruce cares about jason, but hes incapable of telling jason that he cares about him after what jason chose to become. As for giving jason many chances, I dont know, giving him chances would mean jason would have to take bruce up on those chances, which Jason didnt, he didnt want to return to the bat family for help, so those chances didnt really count as Jason, rejected those chances.

The thread's asking whether Bruce cares about Jason or not, and the answer is yes as you just said. Anything else really doesn't change that and is therefore irrelevant to the question being asked.

No it doesn't. Giving a chance is giving a chance. Whether or not someone takes the chance doesn't change the fact the opportunity was given. Bruce offered to help Jason, Jason refused. Doesn't change the fact that Bruce offered.

#153 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Bruce offered to help jason once only in pre 52 continuity, so there werent any other chances to offer jason help, (nightwing doesnt count, talking about bruce), so techically bruce only offered once. And people have to consider that Jason doesnt believe Bruce ever cared about him. Jason has to take the chance to redeem himself and try to do it and break it to count as a chance wasted, it doesnt apply to not taking the chances at all.

#154 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1651 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Bruce offered to help jason once only in pre 52 continuity, so there werent any other chances to offer jason help, (nightwing doesnt count, talking about bruce), so techically bruce only offered once. And people have to consider that Jason doesnt believe Bruce ever cared about him. Jason has to take the chance to redeem himself and try to do it and break it to count as a chance wasted, it doesnt apply to not taking the chances at all.

Seeing as I have no other comics to search through at this time i'll agree Bruce gave Jason one chance during Under the Hood, and he's given him another now in Batman Inc. so that's 2 chances given, and even then it's still noted that these are two that have been given despite the fact that Jason has once again broken numerous laws, committed numerous murders, beaten the shit out of Tim Drake, and attacked Dick Grayson.

Jason not believing Bruce doesn't care about him doesn't change the fact that Bruce does, which is once again the question the thread's asking.

#155 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: the question can be viewed from different points of view you know, form bruces and jasons POVs, because everyone has to remember jason has seen and havent heard any evidence that bruce cares about him, all the evidence is basically locked in bruces life which jason is no longer apart of.

#156 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1651 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: the question can be viewed from different points of view you know, form bruces and jasons POVs, because everyone has to remember jason has seen and havent heard any evidence that bruce cares about him, all the evidence is basically locked in bruces life which jason is no longer apart of.

Not it can't, because the OP made it clear he was asking about Bruce's point of view. So once again, Bruce Wayne cares about Jason Todd. Whether or not Jason Todd thinks that doesn't change the fact its true. Looking at it from Jason's point of view is asking a completely different question (Does Jason Todd think Bruce Wayne cares about him, yes or no?), and if you wish to ask that you should start a new thread asking it.

#157 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Op is that Original Post? well then sinces its bruces point of view, then yes i cant argue that bruce cares about jason even if its in a small way. and it be a waste of time making a thread of jasons point of view on whether he thinks bruce cares about him or not, everyone knows the answer to that, theres plenty of evidence that says jason doesnt think bruce cares.

#158 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1651 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: Op is that Original Post? well then sinces its bruces point of view, then yes i cant argue that bruce cares about jason even if its in a small way. and it be a waste of time making a thread of jasons point of view on whether he thinks bruce cares about him or not, everyone knows the answer to that, theres plenty of evidence that says jason doesnt think bruce cares.

Original Poster

Well i'd say it wouldn't be a waste of time seeing that it has nothing to do with the question this thread is asking, but if everyone knows then there's no reason to mention it at all.

#159 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10845 posts) - - Show Bio

Thank God this is over.

#160 Posted by wessaari (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000: i can sleep at night now

#161 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: lol. you should thank nathaniel for his last comment.

#162 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10845 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@wessaari: lol. you should thank nathaniel for his last comment.

I mean thia flame war was so pointles.

#163 Posted by wessaari (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000: your right, it is pointless. it doesnt further the discussion, its chilidhsi, and just stupid, and im sorry that that happened. It just hard trying to make a reasonable case to a person who wont accept anything

#164 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1651 posts) - - Show Bio

Most are i'd say, but this one was especially pointless given the circumstances.

#165 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@DeathpooltheT1000: well there are people who are trying to feed me illogical and unreasonable cases to me about jason, which obviously led to a pointless arguement.

#166 Posted by consolemaster001 (5598 posts) - - Show Bio

yah

#167 Posted by thejman250 (154 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

I always found this subject relative to the story that featured these two pit against one another. Obviously, Under the Red Hood brought Bruce face to face with his greatest failure. But there have been forums, and discussions on this site that have pointed out that Jason is being blamed and somewhat absolving Bruce of any responsibility. That discussion has been going on, but now that we are on with the New 52, I have to ask; does Bruce still care about Jason Todd? Now the only contact we have seen has been in RHTO #6 which alludes to a "Under the Red Hood"-esque incident, and RHTO #9 in the Night of the Owls crossover. Then there is B&R, where Jason is helping out the other past Robins to stop Terminus. Although the two never spoke in this arc, Jason's tenure as Robin was noted by Bruce in the first issue of the arc.

I have since dropped B&R, and from the looks of it, I made the right choice. But there was a scene that I have just discovered which prompted me to make this forum.

I found this as a huge disrespect to Jason's memory, especially coming from the man who failed him most. So this leads to the big question.

Does Bruce still care about Jason, or does his memory only serve as a reminder to Bruce that the position of Robin is a dangerous role to fill?

- We now see that Bruce still cares, for whatever that's worth.

#168 Posted by JasonTodd63 (3 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes Bruce still cares for Jason, its just that he doesnt how to save and help Jason, given that Jason is filled and driven by his hatred towards him, the Bat Family, the Joker, the Joker and everyone else. We probably wont see a story where Bruce and Jason make peace with each other for years to come or even possibly ever.

#169 Posted by daredevil21134 (11840 posts) - - Show Bio

I guess he does

#170 Posted by w0nd (3422 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes Bruce still cares for Jason, its just that he doesnt how to save and help Jason, given that Jason is filled and driven by his hatred towards him, the Bat Family, the Joker, the Joker and everyone else. We probably wont see a story where Bruce and Jason make peace with each other for years to come or even possibly ever.

The words are taken out, consider this spoiler free, but yes

#171 Posted by daredevil21134 (11840 posts) - - Show Bio

lame

#172 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1651 posts) - - Show Bio

Really after the latest events I don't think there's even a point to this question anymore. Bruce clearly cares about Jason, just as he does Dick, Tim and Damian.

#173 Posted by God_Spawn (37898 posts) - - Show Bio

Really after the latest events I don't think there's even a point to this question anymore. Bruce clearly cares about Jason, just as he does Dick, Tim and Damian.

Agreed. It's kind of nice seeing Jason back with the family. I know people want Jason like how he was when Winnick brought him back, but it's kind of cool to see things come full circle while Jason will most likely still do things his own way if he gets his memory back, which he most likely will. Bruce has at least accepted Jason's methods even though he doesn't accept them.

And besides, you could only have Jason be like how he was for so long and the different writers' spins on it were not exactly grand. *Rumble grumble* Morrison and Winnick on Streets Run Red, *rumble grumble* d*ldo helmet and tomato skull logo.

Moderator
#174 Edited by InnerVenom123 (29501 posts) - - Show Bio

They only knew each other for like six days before Death In The Family at this point.

#175 Edited by wessaari (623 posts) - - Show Bio

@innervenom123: It has been stated that Jason was with Bruce for two years. There had been roughly 5 years of active stories within the DCU, but some of the heroes operated a year prior, such as Batman, but he wasn't well known at that point. Dick is assumed to have been with Bruce for a bout a year. Soon afterwards when he turned 18 he became nightwing, and Jason became Robin. He trained for 6 months, and started putting on the cape. Then Tim soon followed, with what seems like a very short period of tiem, and then Damian showed up. I agree that the 5 year time span was a poor choice, when 8-10 years would have given so much more room for the past to work out, but it is what it is.

#176 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes

#177 Edited by dngn4774 (3148 posts) - - Show Bio
#178 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10845 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

@innervenom123: It has been stated that Jason was with Bruce for two years. There had been roughly 5 years of active stories within the DCU, but some of the heroes operated a year prior, such as Batman, but he wasn't well known at that point. Dick is assumed to have been with Bruce for a bout a year. Soon afterwards when he turned 18 he became nightwing, and Jason became Robin. He trained for 6 months, and started putting on the cape. Then Tim soon followed, with what seems like a very short period of tiem, and then Damian showed up. I agree that the 5 year time span was a poor choice, when 8-10 years would have given so much more room for the past to work out, but it is what it is.

I really, really hate this new timeline.

#179 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1651 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher said:

Really after the latest events I don't think there's even a point to this question anymore. Bruce clearly cares about Jason, just as he does Dick, Tim and Damian.

Agreed. It's kind of nice seeing Jason back with the family. I know people want Jason like how he was when Winnick brought him back, but it's kind of cool to see things come full circle while Jason will most likely still do things his own way if he gets his memory back, which he most likely will. Bruce has at least accepted Jason's methods even though he doesn't accept them.

And besides, you could only have Jason be like how he was for so long and the different writers' spins on it were not exactly grand. *Rumble grumble* Morrison and Winnick on Streets Run Red, *rumble grumble* d*ldo helmet and tomato skull logo.

Agreed. Under the Hood and Under the Red Hood are/is an amazing story and movie, but Jason as he was then couldn't have lasted, and he in fact didn't last. Soon after that story the character started to deteriorate and become annoying, bouncing around the world to annoy different members of the Bat Family. I think that's when the character was at his worst. It culminated in him finally snapping when fighting Dick and being placed in jail, then things started to get back on track when Bruce came back and let him into Batman Inc. Now as you said it's all come full circle with him reconciling with Bruce and moving on. The memory angle is interesting and I really can't say I blame Jason for choosing the path he did. Knowing someone basically set up your entire life, and that that person is your greatest enemy could drive anyone mad.

#180 Posted by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

Really after the latest events I don't think there's even a point to this question anymore. Bruce clearly cares about Jason, just as he does Dick, Tim and Damian.

Agreed. It's kind of nice seeing Jason back with the family. I know people want Jason like how he was when Winnick brought him back, but it's kind of cool to see things come full circle while Jason will most likely still do things his own way if he gets his memory back, which he most likely will. Bruce has at least accepted Jason's methods even though he doesn't accept them.

And besides, you could only have Jason be like how he was for so long and the different writers' spins on it were not exactly grand. *Rumble grumble* Morrison and Winnick on Streets Run Red, *rumble grumble* d*ldo helmet and tomato skull logo.

Agreed. Under the Hood and Under the Red Hood are/is an amazing story and movie, but Jason as he was then couldn't have lasted, and he in fact didn't last. Soon after that story the character started to deteriorate and become annoying, bouncing around the world to annoy different members of the Bat Family. I think that's when the character was at his worst. It culminated in him finally snapping when fighting Dick and being placed in jail, then things started to get back on track when Bruce came back and let him into Batman Inc. Now as you said it's all come full circle with him reconciling with Bruce and moving on. The memory angle is interesting and I really can't say I blame Jason for choosing the path he did. Knowing someone basically set up your entire life, and that that person is your greatest enemy could drive anyone mad.

- I do agree for the most part.

- However, his recent actions just don't seem like the Jason i know and love. When seeing Jason act like a scared and immature child, it just seems like a completely different person than my favorite character.

- On the other hand, i'm sure that Jason will get over it soon.

- Additionally, it seems that we are keeping(meaning that it's still canon thank's to Lobdell) the inane notion that the Joker set up Jason's entire life canon (one of the few things about Lobdell's run that i hate), and that would imply that the Joker already knows who Bruce and company are, and numerous other things.

#181 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1651 posts) - - Show Bio

@nathaniel_christopher said:
@god_spawn said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

Really after the latest events I don't think there's even a point to this question anymore. Bruce clearly cares about Jason, just as he does Dick, Tim and Damian.

Agreed. It's kind of nice seeing Jason back with the family. I know people want Jason like how he was when Winnick brought him back, but it's kind of cool to see things come full circle while Jason will most likely still do things his own way if he gets his memory back, which he most likely will. Bruce has at least accepted Jason's methods even though he doesn't accept them.

And besides, you could only have Jason be like how he was for so long and the different writers' spins on it were not exactly grand. *Rumble grumble* Morrison and Winnick on Streets Run Red, *rumble grumble* d*ldo helmet and tomato skull logo.

Agreed. Under the Hood and Under the Red Hood are/is an amazing story and movie, but Jason as he was then couldn't have lasted, and he in fact didn't last. Soon after that story the character started to deteriorate and become annoying, bouncing around the world to annoy different members of the Bat Family. I think that's when the character was at his worst. It culminated in him finally snapping when fighting Dick and being placed in jail, then things started to get back on track when Bruce came back and let him into Batman Inc. Now as you said it's all come full circle with him reconciling with Bruce and moving on. The memory angle is interesting and I really can't say I blame Jason for choosing the path he did. Knowing someone basically set up your entire life, and that that person is your greatest enemy could drive anyone mad.

- I do agree for the most part.

- However, his recent actions just don't seem like the Jason i know and love. When seeing Jason act like a scared and immature child, it just seems like a completely different person than my favorite character.

- On the other hand, i'm sure that Jason will get over it soon.

- Additionally, it seems that we are keeping(meaning that it's still canon thank's to Lobdell) the inane notion that the Joker set up Jason's entire life canon (one of the few things about Lobdell's run that i hate), and that would imply that the Joker already knows who Bruce and company are, and numerous other things.

I'd call acting scared at different points part of being a human.

Yep, the idea that the Joker set up Jason's entire life is canon for the moment, but the fact that Bruce would still go so far as to deny the Joker knowing his identity is just plain foolish.

#182 Edited by thejman251 (435 posts) - - Show Bio

@thejman251 said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:
@god_spawn said:

@nathaniel_christopher said:

Really after the latest events I don't think there's even a point to this question anymore. Bruce clearly cares about Jason, just as he does Dick, Tim and Damian.

Agreed. It's kind of nice seeing Jason back with the family. I know people want Jason like how he was when Winnick brought him back, but it's kind of cool to see things come full circle while Jason will most likely still do things his own way if he gets his memory back, which he most likely will. Bruce has at least accepted Jason's methods even though he doesn't accept them.

And besides, you could only have Jason be like how he was for so long and the different writers' spins on it were not exactly grand. *Rumble grumble* Morrison and Winnick on Streets Run Red, *rumble grumble* d*ldo helmet and tomato skull logo.

Agreed. Under the Hood and Under the Red Hood are/is an amazing story and movie, but Jason as he was then couldn't have lasted, and he in fact didn't last. Soon after that story the character started to deteriorate and become annoying, bouncing around the world to annoy different members of the Bat Family. I think that's when the character was at his worst. It culminated in him finally snapping when fighting Dick and being placed in jail, then things started to get back on track when Bruce came back and let him into Batman Inc. Now as you said it's all come full circle with him reconciling with Bruce and moving on. The memory angle is interesting and I really can't say I blame Jason for choosing the path he did. Knowing someone basically set up your entire life, and that that person is your greatest enemy could drive anyone mad.

- I do agree for the most part.

- However, his recent actions just don't seem like the Jason i know and love. When seeing Jason act like a scared and immature child, it just seems like a completely different person than my favorite character.

- On the other hand, i'm sure that Jason will get over it soon.

- Additionally, it seems that we are keeping(meaning that it's still canon thank's to Lobdell) the inane notion that the Joker set up Jason's entire life canon (one of the few things about Lobdell's run that i hate), and that would imply that the Joker already knows who Bruce and company are, and numerous other things.

I'd call acting scared at different points part of being a human.

Yep, the idea that the Joker set up Jason's entire life is canon for the moment, but the fact that Bruce would still go so far as to deny the Joker knowing his identity is just plain foolish.

- I agree however, it was a complete turnaround for me as he seemed fairly confident on the plane when speaking to adversaries.

- I'd have agree, as well as raise the argument that many things Bruce has done in the New 52 and otherwise are foolish.

#183 Posted by wessaari (623 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman and Red Hood #20 is definitely going to raise some eyebrows. This will definitely affect this forum. What is the overall consensus of what happened between the two? Some say this will completely undo the progress made within the pages of RHTO, while some might think that Jason might understand that Bruce is clearly not in his right mind. Frankly, this is the sort of Batman I have seen out of Tomasi, and I can't stand it. I love the dynamic he created with Damian, but I hated how he writes Batman putting Damian above everyone else, and in this issue it is Jason. He completely crossed the line and didn't even recognize that Jason is his son as well. I didn't mind buying this issue, but I have lost hope in reading any Tomasi related Batman stories.

#184 Posted by w0nd (3422 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: it will lead for an interesting future. Batman is being unreasonable though, if I was Tim, Dick or Jason, after a while I would just be like fine here do this and get your son back...oh what's this it backfired and it's Jason ALLLLL over again? wow who knew that would happen