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#1 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

I always found this subject relative to the story that featured these two pit against one another. Obviously, Under the Red Hood brought Bruce face to face with his greatest failure. But there have been forums, and discussions on this site that have pointed out that Jason is being blamed and somewhat absolving Bruce of any responsibility. That discussion has been going on, but now that we are on with the New 52, I have to ask; does Bruce still care about Jason Todd? Now the only contact we have seen has been in RHTO #6 which alludes to a "Under the Red Hood"-esque incident, and RHTO #9 in the Night of the Owls crossover. Then there is B&R, where Jason is helping out the other past Robins to stop Terminus. Although the two never spoke in this arc, Jason's tenure as Robin was noted by Bruce in the first issue of the arc.

I have since dropped B&R, and from the looks of it, I made the right choice. But there was a scene that I have just discovered which prompted me to make this forum.

I found this as a huge disrespect to Jason's memory, especially coming from the man who failed him most. So this leads to the big question.

Does Bruce still care about Jason, or does his memory only serve as a reminder to Bruce that the position of Robin is a dangerous role to fill?

#2 Posted by namtabmi (99 posts) - - Show Bio

I wouldn't say he doesn't care. In the panel above it comes across that -- this is the one thing batman wishes he could take back...prevent. To which he even says that he uses it as a reminder so it'll never happen again. I don't see how it is disrespectful though...can't it both serve as a reminder of the failing and that he cares about Jason?? As we know batman isn't one to share his feelings with others (typically)

With the Death of the Family arc on-going and the RHatO about to join it, maybe we'll see some more Jason/Batman confrontation...

#3 Posted by BatWatch (3038 posts) - - Show Bio

@namtabmi said:

I wouldn't say he doesn't care. In the panel above it comes across that -- this is the one thing batman wishes he could take back...prevent. To which he even says that he uses it as a reminder so it'll never happen again. I don't see how it is disrespectful though...can't it both serve as a reminder of the failing and that he cares about Jason?? As we know batman isn't one to share his feelings with others (typically)

With the Death of the Family arc on-going and the RHatO about to join it, maybe we'll see some more Jason/Batman confrontation...

Yeah, I'm with Nam. This did not strike me as disrespectful at all. I mean, Bruce is never going to admit to Damian that he has a costume around because he misses Jason. Also, the memorial has always been partially in honor to Jason and partially to remind Bruce of his failure. Bruce was just telling half the truth.

For more news, reviews, and commentary for the entire Bat Family, check out BatWatch.net.

#4 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@BatWatch:

oh ok well i guess i can take that. It was just a thought, i have seen plenty of examples that show that Bruce still cars, but most of them come from the pre new52.

#5 Posted by djetter0801 (55 posts) - - Show Bio

Was this the first time in the New 52 that we've seen the Jason costume on display in the cave? I can't remember if we have seen it previously.

#6 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@djetter0801: its been in there. Under the Red Hood is a good example, also alot of people didnt like that Stephanie Brown didnt get a memorial like Jaosn did, when people thought she was dead. So its been there, although I dont know how long exactly

#7 Posted by djetter0801 (55 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: I know it was there pre-52, but has it made an appearance since the reboot?

#8 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@djetter0801: im sorry, misunderstoood. I believe B&R has actually just referenced the case itself, issue 14

#9 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman gave up on Jason, he stopped trying to help him both in pre 52 and New 52, so I say bruce no longer cares for Jason.

#10 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: With that said, there has been some issues where Bruce has shown some respect to Jason.

Issue 10 of Batman and Robin had Bruce say that even Jason honored his time as Robin, so there is some feelings deep within Bruce that still thinks of Jason. Issue 14 of RHTO, which is the most recent issue, has Superman tell Jaosn that Batman has vouged for him. Now i started this forum without that knowledge and only the panel at the top of the page, but we are just recieving more and more evidence that Bruce might care for Jason. Which is very convienient since we are having this conversation, but i still feel that Bruce doesnt love Jason anymore, and am being convinced that he still somewhat cares for him. I just wish that he tried to understand where he was coming from instead of disowning him, which really shows that Bruce doesnt care. I think he wants to help Jason, but not in the way Jason wants to be helped. Jason wants reconciliation, while Bruce woudl thinks jason has tarnished his name and that he has to earn his way back into good graces. Bruce shouldnt force Jason to do anything, he should try and be there for Jason. But ya thats my little rant for the day :P

#11 Posted by serpent222 (319 posts) - - Show Bio

Considering that the reboot drastically shortened the time that Jason and Bruce were together, I would be hard pressed to say that Batman really "loved" him. It really seemed more of a mentor relationship there, not a fatherly one. I would say that Batman still cares for him though, and blames himself for what went down.

Note that I forget if Todd's death was changed in the new 52, so I'm thinking of the original death, at least. I would never say that Todd thinks that Batman failed him (nor would I say Batman did objectively, Batman just thinks he did because he takes responsibility for most tragedy in his life). Todd was angry that Batman didn't avenge him. It bothered Todd that his death was not enough to incite Batman to cross the line. Even with the new 52, though, Todd seems to be slowly grasping that Batman shouldn't have crossed that line and is accepting that truth. You have to keep in mind that is was Todd disobeying Batman and not keeping him in the know that led to his death. Batman still tried his damnedest to save him, but it's straight up Joker's and Todd's fault.

#12 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@serpent222: Todd disobeyed him to SAVE his mother, and if there is something that gets my goat is saying that its Jason's fault that he died. Even in new continuity Jason went to Africa to get his mother back, but he was tricked and murdered by the Joker. Batman failed him, in not being there for him and Jason only left because Bruce forbid Jason from doing anything. his tenure as Robin was filled with bad behavior and disobeying Batman, but he didnt leave Bruce as a screw you or being disrespectufl. Jason didnt jump off a building or was an addict, he was doing what Batman taught him. Bruce has been tricked by the Joker, and he wasnt able to stop him from murdering innocent people. Ill give you an example. If you have read issue 13 of Batman, there were about a dozen cops protecting the mayor. The mayor was the target of the Joker, but the cops were there doing their jobs. Joker instead killed them. Now are the cops to blame for their own deaths, they put themselves in danger to do their jobs, but were killed in the process. Now put that similiar situation with Jason, who was a sixteen year old kid who had thought his mother was dead, but went out using the same skills Batman had taught him to s lave an innocent or (presumed innocent) life.

#13 Posted by joshmightbe (24728 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: Actually it was 100% Joker's fault cause he was the dude swinging the crow bar

#14 Posted by serpent222 (319 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: No need to get all up in a tizzy. The only blame that I put on Todd was for going without Batman. Hell, if he was really doing what Batman taught him, he would have had something in place to alert Batman when **** got out of control.

Batman told him not to go and turned out to be right in regards to that advice. It was a situation that Todd couldn't handle. So, it's either his fault for being headstrong OR arguably, a calculated decision to put his own life on the line for his mother's.

But yeah, the actual death is 99.9% on joker.

#15 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: Yes, but has Bruce ever gone to Jason and offered to help him? Nightwing offered to help Jason Twice but Bruce never offered once in pre 52 continuity or in the New 52. Bruce hasnt even went to Jason wanting him to become apart of the Bat family again, so far, Jason still exiles himself from the Bat Family since his return from the dead. I havent even seen any evidence that Jason wants to rejoin the Bat family anyhow, as practically no one in the bat family except Bruce liked him as Robin. I think jason felt no body accepted him as a hero or as Robin, and thats one of the reasons he became a gun using anti hero. Bruce hasnt so far asked Jason to come home back to the manor as its the only home Jason has practically known. All I seen Bruce do was provoke Jason (into becoming Batman with Guns) in the message he left for him after he supposedly died from Darkseids Omega Beams, by suggesting Jason was mentally ill, when it was proven during Jasons time in Arkham that he was 100% sane. I honestly feel that nobody in the batfamily has remotely cared for Jason, Jason never had a familial relationship with Nightwing, only Alfred and Bruce were there for Jason and Bruce never treated Jason like a son (except for one moment in the New 52 which hardly counts) he only raised Jason as Robin, Bruce failed to notice that Jason needed a father both before and after Jasons death.

#16 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@wessaari: Yes, but has Bruce ever gone to Jason and offered to help him? Nightwing offered to help Jason Twice but Bruce never offered once in pre 52 continuity or in the New 52. Bruce hasnt even went to Jason wanting him to become apart of the Bat family again, so far, Jason still exiles himself from the Bat Family since his return from the dead. I havent even seen any evidence that Jason wants to rejoin the Bat family anyhow, as practically no one in the bat family except Bruce liked him as Robin. I think jason felt no body accepted him as a hero or as Robin, and thats one of the reasons he became a gun using anti hero. Bruce hasnt so far asked Jason to come home back to the manor as its the only home Jason has practically known. All I seen Bruce do was provoke Jason (into becoming Batman with Guns) in the message he left for him after he supposedly died from Darkseids Omega Beams, by suggesting Jason was mentally ill, when it was proven during Jasons time in Arkham that he was 100% sane. I honestly feel that nobody in the batfamily has remotely cared for Jason, Jason never had a familial relationship with Nightwing, only Alfred and Bruce were there for Jason and Bruce never treated Jason like a son (except for one moment in the New 52 which hardly counts) he only raised Jason as Robin, Bruce failed to notice that Jason needed a father both before and after Jasons death.

you make a very good point

#17 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@serpent222:

oh please dont get the impression that im a crazy todd fan lol. I came off that way and im sorry bout that :p, but i just really relate to the character, and there have been chats and forums that explicitly blame todd for his own murder. To me it s a 16 year old kid trying to find his presumed dead mother, and i just cant blame him from utilizing the tools at his disposal for that. You are right, he was thinking more in a passionate sense with a willingness to put his life on the line, but still its hard to blame him for that.

a percentage of 99.9 to blame Joker does seem fair, well in my position it seems fair.

#18 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: Thanks.

#19 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

I get really pissed off that people say it was Jasons fault that he died, its true Jason made the decision to go to his treacherous mother who sold him to the Joker, but I believe most of the blame lies on Jasons mother and the Joker.

#20 Posted by joshmightbe (24728 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: Yup if Joker hadn't been there and Jason's mom had been an actual decent human being then none of it would have happened blaming Bruce or Jason Is a classic case of blaming the victim.

#21 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: i suppose next, people will suggest that it was donna troys fault for dying at the hands of the superman robot, or supermans fault for fighting doomsday getting him killed. *sigh* some people got screwed up minds.

#22 Posted by joshmightbe (24728 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13: Literally every argument I've heard blaming Jason always ends up sounding about the same as blaming a kid for getting shot in a drive by because he decided to walk down a street in a rough neighborhood.

#23 Posted by havoc1201 (522 posts) - - Show Bio

in the pre 52 Tim tried to help Jason multiple times, he felt like everyone abandoned jason and he should be giving a second chance.

#24 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@havoc1201: depends what you mean by help. do you mean help him rejoin the bat family or help him out of prison?

#25 Edited by Twoface777 (25 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I think Bruce cared for the the Jason that was Robin and had gone on several adventures with, but not the monster that was The Red Hood after Jason's death. I like the Red Hood but he's definitely not the same as the old Jason, they share similar qualities such as arrogance and anger but I think the Red Hood shows these qualities much more, and its these qualities that all thee exact opposite of Dick Grayson that make Bruce not care for Jason Todd. Its honestly hard to consider Jason and the Red Hood the same person. So to answer your question no I do not think Bruce cares for Jason.

#26 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twoface777: Jason is the same person only, that hes ultimately enraged that Bruce didnt care enough to avenge his death, he most likely believes that if it was dick who died and not him, Batman would avenge dicks death. I dont really think bruce cared about Jason the same way as he cared for dick, as supposedly he made jason dye his hair to make him look like Grayson in Jasons Robin days.

#27 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (12529 posts) - - Show Bio

Bruce care about Jason, he just understands one thing, Jason gets worst when he faces what he could become if he would not let his own nature take control of him.

Jason looks to get more intense when he faces the Batfamily, in a way he is helping him, he is doing what Deathstroke did for many years, being a father from the shadows, that you dont pass 24 hours with some one all days, dont mean you dont love them.

#28 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twoface777: thats a very interesting point, because that would mean that the Lazarus Pit did in fact corrupt Jason Todd. But i dont think that is the case. I dont think Jason is a monster, he was raised in one of the worst environemts, and witnessed many terrible things, did terrible things just to survive. The only thing different is that he has the resources to fight crime without the watchful eye of Batman. Plus he has a motive sense he feels betrayed by Bruce for not avenging him, he wasnt like Dick when he was a kid. he didnt have Dick's sense of morality nor did he have Bruce's sense of justice. Its a nature vs nurture kind of thing

#29 Posted by daredevil21134 (12647 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

@Twoface777: thats a very interesting point, because that would mean that the Lazarus Pit did in fact corrupt Jason Todd. But i dont think that is the case. I dont think Jason is a monster, he was raised in one of the worst environemts, and witnessed many terrible things, did terrible things just to survive. The only thing different is that he has the resources to fight crime without the watchful eye of Batman. Plus he has a motive sense he feels betrayed by Bruce for not avenging him, he wasnt like Dick when he was a kid. he didnt have Dick's sense of morality nor did he have Bruce's sense of justice. Its a nature vs nurture kind of thing

agreed

#30 Edited by daredevil21134 (12647 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Twoface777: Jason is the same person only, that hes ultimately enraged that Bruce didnt care enough to avenge his death, he most likely believes that if it was dick who died and not him, Batman would avenge dicks death. I dont really think bruce cared about Jason the same way as he cared for dick, as supposedly he made jason dye his hair to make him look like Grayson in Jasons Robin days.

Bruce love dick

#31 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134: never said he didnt.

#32 Posted by daredevil21134 (12647 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@daredevil21134: never said he didnt.

It was a joke buddy lol

#33 Posted by Twoface777 (25 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: The point of the Lazarus Pit is that the more Ra's Al Ghul goes in it he comes out more corrupt. So even if Jason just went in once he still came out slightly more corrupt.

#34 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twoface777: The Lazarus Pit didnt corrupt Jason, Jason was proven 100% sane.

#35 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@Twoface777: Well that right there is a very good argument, that could have been made lets say during the Morrison run. But i think nowadays since the new 52 i think the argument is that Jason wasnt necesarrily corrupted. Also the worse jason got was dependent on the writers. Judd Winick brought him into a new light, and wrote a great story. He followed up in some GA issues, that were also pretty good, and then gave us further insight on Jason with The Lost Days. Here Talia fears that the pit courrupted him, even though she initally believed that he wasnt. But we also saw Jason's grief and despair in a closer light That could be a reason to explain the downslope of Jason's behavior, but with the New 52 it so far looks like Jason has remained uncorrupted. He has the same drive as he did before his death, and he is even more mellowed out. He isnt focused on drivng Batman up the wall, and is determined to distribute his brand of justice through his own terms

#36 Posted by Twoface777 (25 posts) - - Show Bio

Your probably right haven't read a ton of new 52.

#37 Posted by BatWatch (3038 posts) - - Show Bio

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Twoface777: The Lazarus Pit didnt corrupt Jason, Jason was proven 100% sane.

When was he proven 100% sane? I always took it as a corruption of the soul anyway not particularly an insanity. Batman calls everybody who kills insane even though it does not really fit.

#38 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@BatWatch said:

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Twoface777: The Lazarus Pit didnt corrupt Jason, Jason was proven 100% sane.

When was he proven 100% sane? I always took it as a corruption of the soul anyway not particularly an insanity. Batman calls everybody who kills insane even though it does not really fit.

I think he is mentioning when Jason was sentenced in Arkham, and was later sent to a prison because he was proved to be sane. If im mistaken please correct me on that

#39 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari: Yes, i am mentioning the time he was sent to Arkham then to prison.

#40 Posted by theboss327 (4 posts) - - Show Bio

I remember Batman was with I think Alfred talking about the past robins or something, and Batman said "Yeah, the second one." or something like that, and Alfred told him that Master Jason wouldn't like that or whatever. Jason Todd wasn't invited to the family portrait Bruce was having. But Batman still looks to him for help and guidance I guess. In the end I think they both respect each other.

#41 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (12529 posts) - - Show Bio

@daredevil21134 said:

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Twoface777: Jason is the same person only, that hes ultimately enraged that Bruce didnt care enough to avenge his death, he most likely believes that if it was dick who died and not him, Batman would avenge dicks death. I dont really think bruce cared about Jason the same way as he cared for dick, as supposedly he made jason dye his hair to make him look like Grayson in Jasons Robin days.

Bruce love dick

This is the evidence

#42 Posted by BatWatch (3038 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

@BatWatch said:

@JasonTodd13 said:

@Twoface777: The Lazarus Pit didnt corrupt Jason, Jason was proven 100% sane.

When was he proven 100% sane? I always took it as a corruption of the soul anyway not particularly an insanity. Batman calls everybody who kills insane even though it does not really fit.

I think he is mentioning when Jason was sentenced in Arkham, and was later sent to a prison because he was proved to be sane. If im mistaken please correct me on that

@JasonTodd13 said:

@wessaari: Yes, i am mentioning the time he was sent to Arkham then to prison.

Ah, gotcha.

Well, yes, I believe Jason is perfectly sane, but I also think Joker is usually portrayed as sane. Joker is a sociopath, but that is not the same as insanity.

#43 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@BatWatch: oh ya that is a whole another debate, whether or not Joker is actually insane, which i agree with you. Sociopath and psychopath, completely two differrnt things

#44 Posted by BatWatch (3038 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

@BatWatch: oh ya that is a whole another debate, whether or not Joker is actually insane, which i agree with you. Sociopath and psychopath, completely two differrnt things

According to my Abnormal Psych professor, psychopath and sociopath are the same thing, but we can agree that Joker is not insane.

#45 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1687 posts) - - Show Bio

Of course he does. Not only is Jason a guy he's never sought to permanently take down, he's also tried to redeem him at numerous points. Despite everything Jason's done since his return, Bruce still tried to help him, even after he died. He also kept his memorial up in the cave, and has still said that Jason honored his time as a Robin. Jason not being invited to the family portrait is understandable, because at the time he had no place there. He's the one who's attacked every person who was at the portrait, save Damian. It's really him that should be making the steps towards fixing things, yet Bruce gave him another chance after in Batman, Inc when he let him be Wingman so he could have another chance at redeeming himself.

Also, I hate to say it because I certainly never thought so Pre-Flashpoint, but Jason does deserve a major part of the blame for his death Post-Flashpoint. He even admits it in his origin story. A random message comes to the batcomputr with info on his mother. He doesn't try to trace the message or even think about how someone could possibly hack into the computer. He just runs off to find his mom, throwing everything Bruce had been teaching him right out the window, and he didn't even alert Bruce to any of this. Yeah, more than a little blame goes to his own foolishness.

#46 Posted by wessaari (633 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher: I would agree with you if he werent a 16 year old kid, who had thought he lost his mother when he was little. Jason also knew at the time, he wouldnt be Robin for very much longer and knew that no matter what he was going to get fired. Also, its really hard to put blame on someone in Jason's case. he never knew that his mother would betray him, why would he think that. This was his mother, and this was someone who wasnt trained to the extent that Batman was. Was it foolish, ya but it is only foolsih in hindsight to someone who knew the outcome. Steph Brown and Leslie Thompkins were living in Africa, yet if Batman found out he would still have gone. Yes he would made sure it was safe, but still Jason wasnt the best Robin. i think many Todd fans can agree with that. But i dont agree with is that it is Jason's fault. I just cant blame him for that, to me its not right

#47 Edited by Nathaniel_Christopher (1687 posts) - - Show Bio

@wessaari said:

@Nathaniel_Christopher: I would agree with you if he werent a 16 year old kid, who had thought he lost his mother when he was little. Jason also knew at the time, he wouldnt be Robin for very much longer and knew that no matter what he was going to get fired. Also, its really hard to put blame on someone in Jason's case. he never knew that his mother would betray him, why would he think that. This was his mother, and this was someone who wasnt trained to the extent that Batman was. Was it foolish, ya but it is only foolsih in hindsight to someone who knew the outcome. Steph Brown and Leslie Thompkins were living in Africa, yet if Batman found out he would still have gone. Yes he would made sure it was safe, but still Jason wasnt the best Robin. i think many Todd fans can agree with that. But i dont agree with is that it is Jason's fault. I just cant blame him for that, to me its not right

For me, the line of thought of being a 16 year old kid doesn't hold that much weight, even in the real world, and it holds even less weight when you have someone who's been specifically trained to deal with these types of situations. Again, even Jason himself admitted that what he did was stupid and that he should've at least left a note for Bruce. No it's foolish from the start. You have a message come to one of the most advanced computers in the world, a message from an unknown source and you don't think to check where it came from or how it managed to get through at all? And it just happens to have this info on your mother, and happens to come through when you're alone in the cave? There's nothing about that situation that wasn't suspect. I find people to be responsible for their own actions, and a lot of the blame there goes to Jason himself. *shrug* Is it a sad situation, especially when you see that Joker was manipulating his entire life? Absolutely, but that doesn't change anything in my opinion.

#48 Posted by JasonTodd13 (423 posts) - - Show Bio

Blaming is Jason for his own death is WRONG, just wrong. The Joker and his own mother are the only ones to blame for his death, would would anyone adopted would do? They would find try to find their real parents no matter what the cost, in Jason's case his death. I dont blame him for trying to find his real mother, he was practically alone before Batman found him, he needed someone to love him, Bruce failed to show Jason he cared and so did Nightwing, he hoped his real mother would be the one person who would show him real love for once in his life, but unfortunately his mother betrayed him.

#49 Posted by Nathaniel_Christopher (1687 posts) - - Show Bio

I didn't say I blame him for his death. He didn't beat himself with a crowbar. Some of the responsibility simply falls to him for not minding Bruce's training. Like if someone is reading a newspaper, steps into the street, gets hit by a car, and dies. That person is partially responsible for their own death by not taking the time to look both ways. In the end, the responsibility of Jason's death is divided between him, Bruce, the Joker, and his mother.

#50 Posted by daredevil21134 (12647 posts) - - Show Bio

@Nathaniel_Christopher said:

I didn't say I blame him for his death. He didn't beat himself with a crowbar. Some of the responsibility simply falls to him for not minding Bruce's training. Like if someone is reading a newspaper, steps into the street, gets hit by a car, and dies. That person is partially responsible for their own death by not taking the time to look both ways. In the end, the responsibility of Jason's death is divided between him, Bruce, the Joker, and his mother.

I agree