Hulk 2014-

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RaynorJ

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@bezzaIt's just Waid retconning things...

Anyway this was pretty underwhelming start to a series, the Indestructible Hulk #1 was far better than this and that series turned out bad at the end. I don't have much if any hopes for this series. I think it's time we moved on to a new writer, i wish there was a way to petition Waid to stop writing Hulk....

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@theacidskull: Hm I think the issue was kinda meh and some of the characters appearing was very convenient

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Flopsop200

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I feel like the issue opened up strong but fell off towards the end. Also other than Hulk saying "hurt" the extent of his dialogue was shown in the preview sooo.......meh. I did enjoy Bagley's art though.

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GreenScar1990

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To me this was another meh issue. Honestly, there was a lot of wasted potential. And once again it seems primarily focused on Banner. With Banner comatose & brain-damaged, I was hoping that we'd delve into the shared psyche of Hulk & Banner. I wanted to see Hulk speaking to Banner in full sentences like Greg Pak & Peter David had done before, perhaps even get some cameo appearances from other Hulk personas.

Instead, what we received was mostly more of the same. And I wasn't impressed by the minor feats either. I don't have a problem with Hulk shrugging off adamantium bullets, as he's done so before, so that along with the Negative Zone particles wasn't that much of a big deal for him to overcome. Besides, the only time adamantium has pierced his skin, even in bullet form, was when they're combined with much more force (for example: in WWH with the powerful bombs laced with adamantium shrapnel that did pierce through his flesh, yet the soliders hand-held weapons with adamantium bullets didn't; or Wolverine, who has a level of superhuman strength (he has to in order to move like he does with a skeleton made of adamantium), yet failed to cut Hulk in their first ever altercation).

And didn't anyone else find it a bit convenient that the woman, who was saved by Hulk in the past from Zzzax, just happened to be a nurse? Yeah, it definitely felt thrown in there. Then there's Aaron Carpenter... why do I feel like Waid is purposely taking a shot at Hulk fans? The only thing that I honestly liked was the art by Mark Bagley.

All in all, a very disappointing start to the series. Too much of the same, not enough to keep me or most Hulk fans interested. I hope that the Savage Hulk series is created for the purpose of finding someone who can actually write an awesome Hulk series. Then we can finally kick Mark Waid off the series, bring in the next writer, bring in a fantastic artist, and then start over again. We need someone to completely ignore Jason Aaron & Mark Waid's horrific tenures and get back to the point where Greg Pak left off. That means, Hulk & Banner in their natural, progressed state of being.

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Bezza

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#55  Edited By Bezza

@raynorj:

Funnily enough the DD fans had such a thing going on their forum and that comic was critically acclaimed by the comic book media, which the Hulk book hasn't been. I don't know what the problem is. Waid was a brilliant writer over at DC, his Flash run was great, he wrote my favourite TP of all time (Kingdom Come) but isn't cutting it on Hulk.

Anyway given that there are strong views on here, I need to pick up my own copy today and see what I think after a couple of reads and not just a flick through.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@jonny_anonymous said:

@theacidskull: Hm I think the issue was kinda meh and some of the characters appearing was very convenient

I guess, it was a good set up however. I wouldn't say meh, either ways, i LIKED it, but didn't love it. Still, abomination is emerging the next issue...sooooooooo Yeah, definitely seeing that.

I just don't really like the idea of Bruce being brain damaged and there wasn't much Hulk action or Bruce in this issue.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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@jonny_anonymous said:

@theacidskull said:

@jonny_anonymous said:

@theacidskull: Hm I think the issue was kinda meh and some of the characters appearing was very convenient

I guess, it was a good set up however. I wouldn't say meh, either ways, i LIKED it, but didn't love it. Still, abomination is emerging the next issue...sooooooooo Yeah, definitely seeing that.

I just don't really like the idea of Bruce being brain damaged and there wasn't much Hulk action or Bruce in this issue.

Bruce isn't brain damaged....well he is, but he'll be shifting personalities now, while Hulk will be the constant one. So we'll see hulk dealing with Banners wildness.

I don't know, we'll see. I'm more looking forward to Savage Hulk now.

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RaynorJ

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@bezza I said it many times before and i will say it again, Hulk isn't the right character for Waid. He might be to complex or possibly even too simple for Waid(depending on Waids personal view on the character), he thinks of him as a mindless brute, a force of nature and not really his own character. The only reason that he promised to show us Hulks own personality is because he was pressured by the fandom to do so. The sales where dropping at an alarming rate and the fans where unsatisfied with the series, so he was forced to change things, it wasn't something he turned to willingly. So imagine yourself being put into a situation where you have to do something you don't want to and are not comfortable with. Waid is used to writing the man behind the mask characters and real genuine heroes, someone like Hulk is far from the likes of Superman, Flash or DD... So while he was pretty ok in dealing with Banner we got nothing from Hulk and now again things are looking bad...

No matter how much people hope and believe that Waid will change things up and that it will be great in the end it isn't. At best the issues are medicore and i am NOT looking forward to reading a medicore series. I am not willing to give Waid a passing card because he will do one thing great buy screw up another. The things he needs to focus on are very simple... More of Hulks character(i wanna see his POV, i wanna see his personality, motives and agenda), better villains(the villains we had in Indestructible where all lackluster and beneath Hulk and the new villains he introduced in the form of the Chronarchist where nothing more than a joke that could be taken out by 3 kids with revolvers from the 19th century) and more focus on Hulks STRENGTH(we don't need Hulk lifting planets but he needs to show us what he is known for best, it's criminal to have a Hulk series without having Hulk actually show off his strength which is exactly what Waid is doing).

But in the end there is always Savage Hulk and personally i can't wait for it to begin and save me from Waids run... Jim Starlin sending Hulk into space to face off guys like Blaastar, Anhillius, and THANOS. Now here is a guy that knows what Hulk is all about. Even Aland Davis arc looks a lot more promising than what Waid is doing. Oh no Hulk is gonna destroy the Avengers, but conveniently guys like Thor and Hyperion and other heavy hitters are not present so it's basically Hulk vs fodder and not just any other fodder but a bunch of other superheroes and i am tired of heroes fighting amongst each other especially when it's so obviously one sided yet the plot armor protects the weaker guys.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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#62  Edited By Jonny_Anonymous

@raynorj: I would like to say that Waid isn't good at writing DD either.

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RaynorJ

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I wouldn't know that honestly i have heard only good things from Waids DD, but i haven't read it myself.

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Bezza

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#64  Edited By Bezza

Well I finally read through my copy of Hulk today and its "Okay"....It reminds me a bit of one of the Bruce Jones books I have got. Its likely I will just stick with Savage Hulk when that appears, but may have a look at Issue 2 before deciding.. Its the first Waid Hulk book I have bought and I cant say I feel strongly I "love it" or "Hate it". I read the IGN review today and it was pretty damning, 5.8 is really low for one of their scores. I think 3 out of 5 was probably about right.

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GreenScar1990

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@raynorj:

Agreed. Jim Starlin knows what we Hulk fans want and so desperately need. We want epic villains, an excellent story, and some high-end strength feats. Can't go wrong with anything there. We crave action, excitement, and emotion.

Waid has given us boredom.

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Lvenger

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@raynorj: If Thor and Hyperion were in the Avengers that Hulk's gonna fight later on in Waid's run, he'd get stomped. Simple as that. Thor alone has a good enough chance to beat any incarnation of the Hulk on his own. Hyperion is also made out to be a heavy hitter in Hickman's series so he'd clearly be more than a match for Hulk. Add in the fodder and Hulk could get distracted by them whilst the heavy hitters KO Hulk.

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RaynorJ

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#68  Edited By RaynorJ

@lvenger It's not as simple as that, Hulk has fought a whole team of superheroes that included guys like Thor and Hercules and was still pushing them back because the circumstances have the the characters holding back and being unorganized while Hulk is going all out. This happened many times actually so your notion of having Hulk being knocked out immediately is literally proven wrong by the comics themselves and seeing as Waid Hulks fluctuates in power severely he can do whatever he wants especially if the Hulk is out to destroy the Avengers as he himself puts it than it's not a very happy or stable Hulk. But no Waid likes to play it safe and puts fodder against Hulk then he tries to make it interesting which is impossible.

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Lvenger

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@raynorj: And those showings are contradicted by the numerous times Thor and Hulk have battled to a near stalemate on their own. Plus, in the earlier showings, most of the Avengers don't really compare in overall power rankings. Take the early Avengers for example. Iron Man is only a mid tier being at best, Captain America is at the absolute peak of human potential and Giant Man and Wasp aren't exactly physical threats to Hulk. As for what I'm guessing you're referring to via the Mindless Hulk fight with the Avengers, again there were writing constraints. Most of the characters were holding back whereas Hulk wasn't.

In reference to the current Avengers, though I'm not a fan of Hickman's run, the roster Pre Infinity was actually one of the most powerful to date. Excluding Hulk, there's Thor (his feats speak for themselves), Hyperion (another Superman clone with several high end feats given to him by Hickman), Starbrand (held his own against the Avengers, including Thor and Hulk fairly easily), some teleporting guy and Captain Universe (again the Uni Power speaks for itself) If Hulk fought the full might of the current Avengers, in what universe could you honestly and plausibly hope to support the conclusion that Hulk has a fighting chance? Especially when the aforementiond characters have a good chance of evenly fighting if not beating Hulk on their own?

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Lvenger

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Ah damn it I don't want to start another Hulk related dispute on here. I'll leave my post at that @raynorj though feel free to respond to it if you wish.

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RaynorJ

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@lvenger They are not contradicted... i told you it depends on the circumstances. I am pretty sure there have been instances of Superman fighting several JL members yet other times only one of them is enough to stalemate him or even beat him. And i literally mention to you that the other guys where holding back and unorganized and yet you proceed to mention it to me as if i didn't know it, when in truth i brought it up first... And the mindless Hulk isn't the only one that fought a group of Avengers(that included guys like Thor) it happened several other times and several times in the last few years. Hulk has also grown in the overall power ranking since those days.

Did i mention that Hulk needs to fight the entire roster of the Avengers? No all i said putting in one heavy hitter could make things at least interesting. Did i even say that Hulk needs to win? Why do you proceed to ignore things i said like me saying Hulk was fighting characters that where holding back and put things in my mouth like me imagining that in some universe Hulk would have a fighting chance against an entire roster of the Avengers?

There is nothing to dispute here... The things you said i said also and i never said Hulk should fight every Avenger out there, nor that he should win. And there are canon facts that support Hulk fighting several Avengers at a time(including some heavy hitters) under particular circumstances, so it's not the first time it would be done.

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Bezza

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@@raynorj:

I agree, the Hulk has always fought multiple numbers of Avengers at the same time and when has he ever been stomped.. only this week I have been reading my Byrne book where Hulk battles Herc, Wonder Man, Namo and Doc Sampson....also, Thor has never faced either WWH (he wasn't in the WWH series) or WB Hulk, so I don't know where ..Lvenger gets the idea that Thor stands a good chance of beating any incarnation of the Hulk. Thor has enough trouble fighting the "normal" Hulk!

No reason at all why Hulk cant face Hyperion and Thor and it not be a good read...

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RaynorJ

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@bezza Meh.. everyone has their own opinion.

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GreenScar1990

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@bezza: Exactly. Hulk is one of the elite powerhouses. Once he gets good and angry, he's more than capable of taking one entire teams of heroes which include numerous other powerhouses including those like Hyperion, Thor, Herc, Captain Universe, etc. Beings like Hulk & Doomsday can quite literally fight teams of heroes because they're so powerful to begin with. It's not that difficult to understand or acknowledge.

Then again, Lvenger's problem is that he doesn't view Hulk to be in the same league as Superman or Thor, which is a complete and utter load of BS. But that's his opinion... even if it's way wrong.

'Nuff said.

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Bezza

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@raynorj@theacidskull

Hey well done you guys for your composure under provocation! We wouldn't want another flame war on here involving Hulk's supposed abilities lol!

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RaynorJ

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@theacidskull I wish i had the same faith as you but i really don't. It's not that i don't believe Waid is putting in effort, he clearly is. It's just that it's not his style to do things out of his comfort zone, you can't force him to do something he simply doesn't know or doesn't want to do under any circumstances. This is why i said many times that Waid is not the right writer for the Hulk. The problem is we might not even get to see what Waid plans to do with the Hulk series if it drops too low in sales they will immediately replace him. I mean who is gonna support an ongoing Hulk book that barely sales 20 000 copies, that is ridiculous for a character that can sell 5 times as much.

I have even less faith in the Original Sin, i will skip that whole thing entirely. Waid is already disappointing me with his Hulk book now him and Kieron are gonna co-write it... The same guy that many say is ruining Ironman by bringing in character destroying twists, if he convinces Waid to change something drastically about Hulks origin i am dropping Waids Hulk run immediately and i will not stop convincing others of how bad it is.

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RaynorJ

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@theacidskull It will most likely be damaging in one way or another. The Original series are meant to shock and redefine what we thought of the past. That's their whole point, so i doubt they will do something that wont be huge to a characters history. It's not like in Hulk #1 where that brain surgeon went to the same school as Banner, those are small things and changes to someones past. But Original Sin is gonna be huge so you can expect something that will potentially destroy Hulks origin... In the end all i am saying is be prepared for the worst in that case if something good happens or if something kinda bad happens you wont be as mad about it or you might even be ecstatic because it exceeded your expactations. But if you hope for it to be good and something bad happens than you will only take the news even worse...

The thing is whether Waid does good or bad for the character he is not gonna write the Hulk forever, sooner or later someone is gonna replace him. And yea Waid did not do anything terrible to the character it's not like he made the Hulk a villain, a murderer or have him getting KO'd by Ironman or Wolverine or anything like that. But this status quo he has with the Hulk is getting really tiresome. I rather have another writer shake things up a bit since either way eventually someone is gonna replace Waid whether he becomes the best or worst writer on Hulk he will eventually step down and i think the series is due for a new approach and a new point of view. Since it doesn't look like it's working with Waid and even he pretty much admits it saying he just can't please the Hulk fandom.

I still don't see how hard it is for Waid to give Hulk decent villains, show more of the character himself and give us some cool strength feats... Those things sound so easy to me honestly.

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RaynorJ

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@theacidskull Yea, personally i wish it remained the way it is but if they are gonna have some changes i hope it isn't something as obvious and as stupid as having Tony Stark be responsible for creating the Hulk.

Yea, probably seeing as Waid didn't get much positive feedback(the reason why he made the comment that Hulk fans are hardest to please so far for him) maybe it will shake him up a bit and force him to step up his game and do things OUTSIDE his comfort zone. It's cool that he is known as the guy that writes the character behind the mask and all but maybe not every character should be written that way. I hope he finds this out himself soon.

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jaxthejester_2014

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@raynorj said:

It's just Waid retconning things...

Anyway this was pretty underwhelming start to a series, the Indestructible Hulk #1 was far better than this and that series turned out bad at the end. I don't have much if any hopes for this series. I think it's time we moved on to a new writer, i wish there was a way to petition Waid to stop writing Hulk....

I would have to agree my friend. Waid is still dropping the ball when it comes to writing a compelling Hulk story. And from his Tweeter feed, I get the impression that the man honestly cares very little for Hulk's character. Why write a character that you don't even enjoy reading? It's a recipe for failure. And the strain of constant feedback from frustrated Hulk fans is taking its toll on him. The man should move on to something that he actually loves writing. Just my two cents.

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RaynorJ

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@jaxthejester_2014 Yea i agree. I get the feeling from his twitter that Waid is not the type of person that likes to be corrected. He got corrected by Hulk fans a few times already. He also got corrected on the Hulk #1 issue regarding Hulks healing, which if you noticed(and i bet you did) Hulk did not heal his brain for an entire issue and it still doesn't look like it healed, which is very weird seeing as Hulk has healed from similar damage in seconds in the past and they even suggested that he was really mad in this issue... I also saw him get corrected on some political issues regarding republicans and bla, bla... Long story short he got corrected and he told that person to go f@ck himself... Granted that person did correct him in a condescending way, but still you have 50 000 followers i would expect him to be a bit more professional about things...

But i do agree, writing Hulk is definitely a job he doesn't enjoy to do... He brings no passion to it and while he might enjoy writing Banner, Hulk on the other hand he tries to ignore as much as possible while throwing random feats thinking it will satisfy the Hulk fanbase... It might if he actually had decent strength feats and epic action as well as villains for Hulk to fight, but he has none of that....

So yea i agree, he should move onto something that he would actually enjoy writing.

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Bezza

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It seems a recurring problem that comic book writers have big egos. I think they live in a rarefied world where they have attained cult status by writing comics and wielding a certain amount of power in terms of what they can do with characters that are adored by millions worldwide. In their little bubbles they feel like the biggest of fish. The truth of course is that outside of comic book fans, hardly anyone has heard of Waid, Bendis, Johns etc....

..the old saying "if you don't like the heat, don't stand in the kitchen" applies very well to twitter. I notice that a lot of the well know comic book writers are crazily tweeting all the time, generating vast amounts of self publicity. This being the case, a little more humility when dealing with the nutter element that twitter attracts wouldn't go amiss. If they don't like it, then perhaps they shouldn't use twitter!

Anyway, lets hope either Mark Waid finally "gets" the Hulk, or he moves on and we get someone else. Problem is, who would you want?

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jaxthejester_2014

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@raynorj Indeed good sir, the evident lack of knowledge surrounding Hulk's healing factor was a true let down. His skull should have closed up the moment he transformed, and there is no good excuse for Waid to be ignorant of such a basic super power. Also, seeing Banner play "scribble time" at the end of the first issue was... awkward. A bit too reminiscent of seeing Hulk play with puppies to stay calm in the prior run. I'm not a fan of those hit or miss (mostly miss) shock antics.

@bezza Good question bud. You could start a Thread Topic on that alone. I would honestly love to see a lesser known writer who is simply passionate (and reasonably well read) about the character get a crack. For established writers, off the top of my head (and in no particular order)...

  • Geoff Johns
  • Steve Niles
  • Jonathan Hickman
  • Dan Slott
  • Paul Jenkins
  • Peter David

And many more. Anyone with love for the character and a bit of solid book knowledge would be an improvement over the status quo.

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GreenScar1990

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@jaxthejester_2014 said:

@raynorj Indeed good sir, the evident lack of knowledge surrounding Hulk's healing factor was a true let down. His skull should have closed up the moment he transformed, and there is no good excuse for Waid to be ignorant of such a basic super power. Also, seeing Banner play "scribble time" at the end of the first issue was... awkward. A bit too reminiscent of seeing Hulk play with puppies to stay calm in the prior run. I'm not a fan of those hit or miss (mostly miss) shock antics.

@bezza Good question bud. You could start a Thread Topic on that alone. I would honestly love to see a lesser known writer who is simply passionate (and reasonably well read) about the character get a crack. For established writers, off the top of my head (and in no particular order)...

  • Geoff Johns
  • Steve Niles
  • Jonathan Hickman
  • Dan Slott
  • Paul Jenkins
  • Peter David

And many more. Anyone with love for the character and a bit of solid book knowledge would be an improvement over the status quo.

Thous 4 choices are very good, the rest are mostly crappy writers.

That's your opinion and I respect it. However, I don't think Geoff Johns & Dan Slott are bad writers at all. They're pretty great IMO. Hickman, on the other hand, can be hit or miss.

I've read all of the released TPB of Slott's Superior Spider-Man and the Goblin Nation arch... and found them very solid and entertaining. It really reveals the differences and parallels between Peter Parker and Otto Octavius. It's really good, especially when you start to realize that everything Oct does and will do will fall & crumble in a massive way. In all honestly, it's about Otto's rise and fall, and Peter's ultimate triumph/return. It also sets up some interesting future stories for Peter as he now has to deal with everything that Otto caused while in control of his body. Seriously, it's better than you think, especially when I could plainly see that Pete would rise to victory in the end.

Geoff Johns' Green Lantern run (which I'm starting to read) has had nothing but solid praise amongst fans. I've read his New52 Shazam/Captain Marvel, which was also pretty good. Let's not forget his Aquaman tenure, which was awesome and made me really like the character which is now being written by Jeff Parker.

These two would be at the top of my list (along with several others) to write the Hulk series.

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#92  Edited By GreenScar1990

@theacidskull: Okay, just let me ask you something, and please be honest with your answer. Prior to Superior Spider-Man, did you enjoy his Spidey run?

I know I did. And I hardly call what he's done destroying Spidey/Peter, because at least we got him back in full form after a short hiatus. On the Hulk side of things, Waid has turned Hulk into a growling, snarling, one-dimensional beast with no personality and now reduced Banner into a nearly brain-dead former super genius. That seems just as bad, if not worse than what Slott did to Spidey.

Because, as of yet, we haven't gotten Banner/Hulk that we've come to know and love from Pak & PAD's runs prior to Waid coming onboard. Waid's been on as writer for 18+ months, and we still didn't get anything great from him. Add in Jason Aaron's 12 months prior and we've got... over 30 months without a single solid Hulk story!!! That's saying a lot. We're still stuck in regression hell here with our Jade Giant, our last solid story coming from Greg Pak!

And say what you want, but I and many others find Geoff Johns to be a solid and very capable writer. I never read his She-Hulk, so I can't judge, but as for Batman... is it really that bad for some villains to once in awhile get the better of him? I mean, usually it's Batman who gets the upperhand over anyone way too often. At least if Bats does get knocked down a peg, it's at least by someone physically superior or just as intelligent (Lex Luthor in Forever Evil, for example). Nothing to really complain about.

But you're entitled to your opinion. And I respect that. Good talk, dude. :)

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RaynorJ

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I've noticed that there is no Hulk #5 for July in the solicitations. Could this mean they are dropping Waid from the Hulk title? I hope so, keeping my fingers crossed.

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Bezza

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@theacidskull:

Opinions vary, but I cant agree with you about Geoff Johns. Maybe he isn't so good with Batman, but he single handedly re-booted the Green Lantern character are years into the doldrums and pushed him into the limelight. I love his Flash books too. I've got nearly all his main GL books and stuff like Sinestro Corps and Rebirth are brilliant books. Have you read his Shazam origin book? Loved it. Another out of date character he has reimagined and reinvigorated. Superman last son of Krypton, again excellent. He's basically really good with super-powered characters. Anyway seeing as he is a loyal DC man, I doubt we would ever get him.

I am just getting back into Spiderman stuff and starting to read some of Dan Slott's books so will make a judgement on that later!

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GreenScar1990

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@bezza:

Believe it or not, Geoff Johns, much like Jim Starlin, is someone who loves and always wanted to write the Hulk yet Marvel never gave him the chance. I could see Geoff Johns & Jim Starlin being another Greg Pak or PAD that could breathe new life into the Hulk. It's something that we desperately need at this point.

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Jonny_Anonymous

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#98  Edited By Jonny_Anonymous

So is Savage Hulk set in the past or is Prof X coming back?

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RaynorJ

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@theacidskull It could mean Ironman is getting dropped too, from what i here Kieron is writing a terrible Ironman that's dropping in sales like crazy. Hulk and Ironman are Marvels weakest titles atm so i dunno what else could be there?